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View Full Version : Gonzaga vs Memphis post game thoughts



Reborn
02-08-2014, 08:23 PM
Disappointed yes, but honestly not a bad loss at all. There were two differences in my opinion. Memphis shot twice as many FT's as Gonzaga, and made 12 more. Gonzaga shot 13 foul shots, and Memphis 27, mostly in the second half. The refs kept Memphis in the game the second half by putting them to the free throw line time after time after time. Memphis was in the one and one at the ten minute mark.

Second, the Zags got KILLED on the boards. It was a shame honestly. Ugly. How many times did Memhis get 5 shots before the scored?

I thought the Zags played pretty good, and really good in the post. PK was great and Dower pretty good. Pangos is Pangos. The real problem on the offensive end right now is Gary Bell, and my hunch is that his hand is really hurting him. I felt he came back too soon, and this is what you get. In a game like this you can see the value of Coleman. If Few had played him more early on in the year, and made him more than a part-time player I think the Zags would be fine. He is one player who is NOT AFRAID to try and score. Say what you want about him negative, I like him, and I love his confidence.

I was really glad to see Gonzaga play with a team that is top 20 because as we all could see there's a big difference in toughness and athleticism. It showed the weakness of Few's small guard offense (it hurts when you have guards who killing us on the boards). And it really hurts them when Few goes with the 4 guard offense with Barham in because Barham is not an elite basketball player. He's a good shooter, but good teams like Memphis with guard the shooters. GU was 2-16 from behind the arc.

I was most disappointed in the refs but y0u get that all the time on the road.

I am proud of our team, and losing to Memphis in that arena is no shame at all. We were tough, but we just don't have guards who can shoot and even play on offense. It will hurt us if we don't do something about it. Our post players are really, good.

Go Zags!!!

demian
02-08-2014, 09:01 PM
Toughness and athleticism was huge down the stretch for Memphis. they RIPPED a few offensive rebounds right away from our guys grasp. I like coleman a lot. he isn't perfect but I like what he brings.


Disappointed yes, but honestly not a bad loss at all. There were two differences in my opinion. Memphis shot twice as many FT's as Gonzaga, and made 12 more. Gonzaga shot 13 foul shots, and Memphis 27, mostly in the second half. The refs kept Memphis in the game the second half by putting them to the free throw line time after time after time. Memphis was in the one and one at the ten minute mark.

Second, the Zags got KILLED on the boards. It was a shame honestly. Ugly. How many times did Memhis get 5 shots before the scored?

I thought the Zags played pretty good, and really good in the post. PK was great and Dower pretty good. Pangos is Pangos. The real problem on the offensive end right now is Gary Bell, and my hunch is that his hand is really hurting him. I felt he came back too soon, and this is what you get. In a game like this you can see the value of Coleman. If Few had played him more early on in the year, and made him more than a part-time player I think the Zags would be fine. He is one player who is NOT AFRAID to try and score. Say what you want about him negative, I like him, and I love his confidence.

I was really glad to see Gonzaga play with a team that is top 20 because as we all could see there's a big difference in toughness and athleticism. It showed the weakness of Few's small guard offense (it hurts when you have guards who killing us on the boards). And it really hurts them when Few goes with the 4 guard offense with Barham in because Barham is not an elite basketball player. He's a good shooter, but good teams like Memphis with guard the shooters. GU was 2-16 from behind the arc.


I was most disappointed in the refs but y0u get that all the time on the road.

I am proud of our team, and losing to Memphis in that arena is no shame at all. We were tough, but we just don't have guards who can shoot and even play on offense. It will hurt us if we don't do something about it. Our post players are really, good.

Go Zags!!!

Ekrub
02-08-2014, 09:04 PM
Bit of a moral victory in my opinion. Competed with an athletic top 25 team on the road. A team that has beat a lot of good teams. We can beat anybody

JPtheBeasta
02-08-2014, 09:06 PM
Thanks for the breath of fresh air

Reborn
02-08-2014, 11:56 PM
Thanks for the breath of fresh air

There is a lot of craziness going on on the board. Usually is after a loss. One thing that many fans who are posting are failing to understand is that this Memphis team is really tough, and plays good defense. I really didn't see them making any more plays then Gonzaga, accept they were able to go to the free throw line. I was no more impressed with Memphis on offense then I was Gonzaga. We actually shot a lot better then they did. Our defense was actually better then theirs, and considerably better. I just love Gonzaga's defense. It was nice to see it on display against a team that doesn't know everything we do. PK was really good on D. Awesome really. And Memphis is considered to have pretty tough post players. At the beginning of the year Memphis was considered to have the best guards in the country, and they are pretty good. They definitely outplayed Gonzaga's.

I thought Stockton played a very good game, and was the only one able to get the ball into the post at the end. When he went out because he fouled out, our offense went to a complete stand still, with our guards dribbling around like a ship without a rudder. Memphis really cut off passing lanes at the end.

I will say one thing. I don't like Memphis' team. I didn't like their attitude on the court and how they complained about the few fouls that were called on them. And I definitely did not like what the player did to PK. And I don't care what anyone says, that guy did it on purpose. The replay clearly shows him grabbing PK's jersey and intentionally pulling him down. He hurt his knee, and I think kind of in shock, and was INEFFECTIVE the rest of the game. And the interesting thing about it is he Memphis player did it on the first play he came into the game, replacing their "stud" defender and scorer down low who could not handle PK. Memphis could not deal with PK, and I was just impressed. In my opinion there was only one way to get him out of the game and they did it. Intentional? Hell yes. I've played the game at that level, and I KNOW that there are players who will do that.

I promise you one thing. I will NEVER root for Memphis again. I really do hate dirty play that's designed to hurt a player, and that's exactly what I saw. And the guy who did it was a 300 pounder, the only one really capable of doing what he did.
I just hope and pray that PK is okay the rest of the year.

I also saw tonight how good our post players are in the post. Very, very good...as good as last year really. Now if we can find some guard play in the next month Gonzaga is going to be really tough to beat in March. I don't know about you, but the game showed me a lot. I feel GU stood up to the test, and especially on Defense.

Memphis made almost half their points the second half on free throws (17). Gonzaga made 3.
To me this game says absolutely nothing negative about the Zags. It was a heavyweight championship. It was a tough, physical game. And it was played in front of 18,000 crazy Memphis fans. That crowd tonight in the second half was awesome. I can see why kids coming out of high school want to play there. One last thing. Memphis is a pretty dominant Senior Team, and they showed it tonight. Keep your heads held up high Zags. There's nothing to be ashamed of. I hate losing as much as anyone, and the loss was painful, but more so to you then to me. Good game. Hang in there. The best is yet to come!!

Go Zags!!!

Oregonzagnut
02-09-2014, 12:21 AM
All we need is consistency from the 3 pt shot and we will go far. If we could have hit just 2 more threes, we could have forced them to guard outside more and we would have had even more open looks for Karno and Dower. But Memphis was swarming the entire 2nd half. I think they tried to play a slow down game in the first half and they figured out they needed to run us ragged like we did them in the first half.

In Spokand we win by 10, IMO.

Zagger
02-09-2014, 12:37 AM
..........I will say one thing. I don't like Memphis' team. I didn't like their attitude on the court and how they complained about the few fouls that were called on them. And I definitely did not like what the player did to PK. And I don't care what anyone says, that guy did it on purpose. The replay clearly shows him grabbing PK's jersey and intentionally pulling him down. He hurt his knee, and I think kind of in shock, and was INEFFECTIVE the rest of the game. And the interesting thing about it is he Memphis player did it on the first play he came into the game, replacing their "stud" defender and scorer down low who could not handle PK. Memphis could not deal with PK, and I was just impressed. In my opinion there was only one way to get him out of the game and they did it. Intentional? Hell yes. I've played the game at that level, and I KNOW that there are players who will do that.

I promise you one thing. I will NEVER root for Memphis again. I really do hate dirty play that's designed to hurt a player, and that's exactly what I saw. And the guy who did it was a 300 pounder, the only one really capable of doing what he did............
Go Zags!!!

And that was not the only shot they took at PK. I seldom do not admire the play of a team that beats the Zags and think they played a great game and congratulate them as such (like Portland's game in Portland). But, due to the way Memphis played - I lost respect for their program. And it's too bad for them. Any advantages that intentional injury play produces simply can't be savored as well as a win played with true sportsmanship. I hope the Zags can attract a better east of the Mississippi team to begin a series of games with and say so-long to Memphis. Memphis does not deserve to play the Zags again.

caduceus
02-09-2014, 12:51 AM
On Court
Off Court
Player MIN RR +/- + - +/- + - S. Dower 37 4 -1 52 -53 -5 2 -7 P. Karnowski 33 4 -1 50 -51 -5 4 -9 K. Pangos 34 -10 -8 45 -53 2 9 -7 G. Bell 33 -18 -12 39 -51 6 15 -9 D. Stockton 25 6 0 35 -35 -6 19 -25 G. Coleman 15 6 0 20 -20 -6 34 -40 A. Nunez 1 -2 -4 0 -4 -2 54 -56 K. Dranginis 16 4 -1 25 -26 -5 29 -34 R. Edwards 1 8 1 2 -1 -7 52 -59 D. Barham 5 -2 -4 2 -6 -2 52 -54

+ = Team points scored while on court
- = Opponent points allowed while on court
+/- = Team points scored minus Opp points allowed
Off Court = Team points scored/allowed while off court
RR (Roland Rating) = On Court +/- minus Off Court +/-

Pretty self-explanatory this time. It's clear from the RR's who had a bad night (and the team played better in the absence of only those two on the court as well). Stocks and Coleman appear to have helped the team the most.

P.S. Dower played 37 minutes? Wow.

demian
02-09-2014, 02:02 AM
I was a player who believes in a "hard foul" defensively, however I never used a shoulder grab and throw tactic. I was also an offensive player who when playing against weaker players knew they had no choice once I got my hips into them and the pass came there only choice might be to just "foul me", some did the grab move but never the shoulder throw move. I agree with reborn, what I saw tonight was bush league and that was totally intentional. The idea that you grab someone with both hands on his shoulders has always rubbed me the wrong way, but then after grabbing both shoulders then grabbing cloth literally and then throwing the player to the ground is complete BS. Then acting like you did nothing wrong immediately afterwards and then doing a pat on the butt to PK a few minutes later was pointless. Trust me there is a better way to foul on purpose


There is a lot of craziness going on on the board. Usually is after a loss. One thing that many fans who are posting are failing to understand is that this Memphis team is really tough, and plays good defense. I really didn't see them making any more plays then Gonzaga, accept they were able to go to the free throw line. I was no more impressed with Memphis on offense then I was Gonzaga. We actually shot a lot better then they did. Our defense was actually better then theirs, and considerably better. I just love Gonzaga's defense. It was nice to see it on display against a team that doesn't know everything we do. PK was really good on D. Awesome really. And Memphis is considered to have pretty tough post players. At the beginning of the year Memphis was considered to have the best guards in the country, and they are pretty good. They definitely outplayed Gonzaga's.

I thought Stockton played a very good game, and was the only one able to get the ball into the post at the end. When he went out because he fouled out, our offense went to a complete stand still, with our guards dribbling around like a ship without a rudder. Memphis really cut off passing lanes at the end.

I will say one thing. I don't like Memphis' team. I didn't like their attitude on the court and how they complained about the few fouls that were called on them. And I definitely did not like what the player did to PK. And I don't care what anyone says, that guy did it on purpose. The replay clearly shows him grabbing PK's jersey and intentionally pulling him down. He hurt his knee, and I think kind of in shock, and was INEFFECTIVE the rest of the game. And the interesting thing about it is he Memphis player did it on the first play he came into the game, replacing their "stud" defender and scorer down low who could not handle PK. Memphis could not deal with PK, and I was just impressed. In my opinion there was only one way to get him out of the game and they did it. Intentional? Hell yes. I've played the game at that level, and I KNOW that there are players who will do that.

I promise you one thing. I will NEVER root for Memphis again. I really do hate dirty play that's designed to hurt a player, and that's exactly what I saw. And the guy who did it was a 300 pounder, the only one really capable of doing what he did.
I just hope and pray that PK is okay the rest of the year.

I also saw tonight how good our post players are in the post. Very, very good...as good as last year really. Now if we can find some guard play in the next month Gonzaga is going to be really tough to beat in March. I don't know about you, but the game showed me a lot. I feel GU stood up to the test, and especially on Defense.

Memphis made almost half their points the second half on free throws (17). Gonzaga made 3.
To me this game says absolutely nothing negative about the Zags. It was a heavyweight championship. It was a tough, physical game. And it was played in front of 18,000 crazy Memphis fans. That crowd tonight in the second half was awesome. I can see why kids coming out of high school want to play there. One last thing. Memphis is a pretty dominant Senior Team, and they showed it tonight. Keep your heads held up high Zags. There's nothing to be ashamed of. I hate losing as much as anyone, and the loss was painful, but more so to you then to me. Good game. Hang in there. The best is yet to come!!

Go Zags!!!

Reborn
02-09-2014, 04:55 AM
I was a player who believes in a "hard foul" defensively, however I never used a shoulder grab and throw tactic. I was also an offensive player who when playing against weaker players knew they had no choice once I got my hips into them and the pass came there only choice might be to just "foul me", some did the grab move but never the shoulder throw move. I agree with reborn, what I saw tonight was bush league and that was totally intentional. The idea that you grab someone with both hands on his shoulders has always rubbed me the wrong way, but then after grabbing both shoulders then grabbing cloth literally and then throwing the player to the ground is complete BS. Then acting like you did nothing wrong immediately afterwards and then doing a pat on the butt to PK a few minutes later was pointless. Trust me there is a better way to foul on purpose

Ya, Demian. I forgot about that classic BS look of "Oh me? What did I do? Me foul?" I didn't see the pat on butt, but after the Richard Sherman famous "patt on the butt" of the San Francisco reciever and all the media attention that that got, I agree that that too is a pure bs "act." I know what you mean when you refer to the need for a team to be "tough," and to sometimes make a "hard" foul. I taught that kind of toughness myself when I coached. But I never instructed a player to hurt someone. However, I know it happens (trying to hurt a player) at the D-1 level, and that's too bad. I'll say it again, I lost a lot of respect for Memphis last night.

Reborn
02-09-2014, 04:58 AM
On Court
Off Court
Player MIN RR +/- + - +/- + - S. Dower 37 4 -1 52 -53 -5 2 -7 P. Karnowski 33 4 -1 50 -51 -5 4 -9 K. Pangos 34 -10 -8 45 -53 2 9 -7 G. Bell 33 -18 -12 39 -51 6 15 -9 D. Stockton 25 6 0 35 -35 -6 19 -25 G. Coleman 15 6 0 20 -20 -6 34 -40 A. Nunez 1 -2 -4 0 -4 -2 54 -56 K. Dranginis 16 4 -1 25 -26 -5 29 -34 R. Edwards 1 8 1 2 -1 -7 52 -59 D. Barham 5 -2 -4 2 -6 -2 52 -54

+ = Team points scored while on court
- = Opponent points allowed while on court
+/- = Team points scored minus Opp points allowed
Off Court = Team points scored/allowed while off court
RR (Roland Rating) = On Court +/- minus Off Court +/-

Pretty self-explanatory this time. It's clear from the RR's who had a bad night (and the team played better in the absence of only those two on the court as well). Stocks and Coleman appear to have helped the team the most.

P.S. Dower played 37 minutes? Wow.

I really like your graf. That's a million. It clearly allows one to see what happened. I appreciate the time and effort you put in.

Go Zags!!!

Zag4Hire
02-09-2014, 05:36 AM
Well going into the game, I didn't expect to win but I hadn't seen Memphis play this season. Also I am not seeing it with this team. However I thought this game was very winnable and it just shows what this team will be like come tourney time.

Memphis knows their game and they try to get in the paint. They were taking some jumpers and not shooting well at all. Then they just tried to get transition buckets and force the action at the hoop. This worked for a variety of reasons including the refs. GU seemed to thrive when the game was chaotic (Coleman did well to capitalize) and down low (Karno and Sam played well). However guards, Bardham, KD? I was excited to see Angel but he looked lost in limited minutes.

But wow, you lose to a team who shoots under 35%? Every 50/50 ball seemed to end up in Memphis' hands 75% of the time. It was uncanny. Their perimeter defense did well but Zags missed some open ones.

At the end of the day, I just still feel the hangover from last season. How do you follow-up a historic season like that and the bitter ending? I guess I wasn't expecting this team to eclipse any achievement this season but to at least keep the tourney appearance streak alive. And what? Lose the 7/10 game? Get bounced in the 2nd round by a top seed? I have seen that anthology before. One thing would be nice is to get Arizona or potentially Wichita State early on and bounce them. That would be fun.

So they just have to focus on the WCC and get the automatic bid.

El Zag
02-09-2014, 06:14 AM
Mental toughness ; ; playing to “ not lose “ are a concern .

Reborn
02-09-2014, 06:22 AM
But wow, you lose to a team who shoots under 35%? Every 50/50 ball seemed to end up in Memphis' hands 75% of the time. It was uncanny. Their perimeter defense did well but Zags missed some open ones.

Yes. You would expect a team to win who holds a team to 36% shooting. You may wonder how that can happen. Well, when a team shoots twice as many free throws as you do, and get 20 offensive rebounds, it happens. The Zags have two players who really know how to attack, and unfortunately they both are on the bench. Gonzaga plays best when the are able to score quickly on transition offense. One huge problem last night is that the Zags couldn't get stops and get running. Over, and over, and over Memphis was going to the line in the second half. They outscored the Zags at the foul line 17-3 in the second half. Just about half of Memphis' points were free shots at the basket without any one guarding them. Honestly! I thought the officiating KILLED the Zags. When Memphis is allowed to foul us constantly, and the Zags are whistled for a foul when the breathe on an opponent, it is tough to win. I think that that's why I'm really not too worried about that game last night. If you like good defense, which I do, then you like a game like last night. Although the front line D was outstanding, our rebounding was just horrible. Few really needs to address this.

Reborn
02-09-2014, 07:16 AM
I just watched the last 5:00 when the Zags were up by 9 points. I wanted to see what happened in those minutes. Gonzaga got 4 points, two on a layup by Dower, and two by Pangos on a Jumper at the elbow off a pick and role. Gary Bell gave up 10 points to Memphis, almost all in a row. He gave Dixon 8 straight points to get Memphis back within one, and later gives Dixon and uncontested layup on a fast break to put Memphis ahead. Why did he not FOUL HIM HARD? Also Bell made a crucial turnover and then fouls Dixon. This stupid play put Memphis within 3. Zags were ahead before the turnover and dumb foul. then Few inserts Stockton at the 3 min mark. Stockton turns the ball over a minute later and then on the next play by Memphis, Few switches to a Zone defense and Stockton gets out of position and fouls a penetrating Dixon. I aleady mentioned the layup soon after by Dixon where Bell lets him go in uncontested for a lay up.

Then with 30 some seconds left in the game, I believe on the very next possession by the Zags, Dower get off a shot, and makes it which would have put the Zags back ahead, and may have been the game winner. One problem, the 30 second buzzer went off a half second before Dower's shot goes in. It wasn't our night I guess.

On the Zags last play and behind by 3 points with 30 something on the clock, Few designs a play for Kevin Pangos to attack the basket off a screen. Kevin penetrates but Memphis blocks the lane to the rim and Pangos passes to the corner to Dranginis for the 3. As we know all two well he misses. It was a very good shot, but on a night when Dranginis has not been a factor at all on offense, and is suddenly the guy who takes the last shot to tie it up, to me does not seem like a good decision by Few. I don't believe that Dranginis has the confidence right now to make that shot. I would have loved to see Barham take that shot, and make it in the arena of the team that he used to play for. I also wonder about Bell. Why would Few not have Gary take that shot when he is one of our best 3 pt shooters? My opinion is that Gary's hand is bothering him.

Go Zags!!!

Ezag
02-09-2014, 07:51 AM
unfortunately the "weakness" with our guards is the same problem with weakness every year. We usually have a hard time against athletic teams. Last NCAA's as a #1 seed, we barely made it past the 1st game against an athletic team and then got owned by the Shockers. If you look at our history against even average athletic teams we struggle.

Despite Coleman's defensive deficiencies, I like the way he plays which is to score ever open chance he gets. You don't get that from Bell or others. Play Coleman more, get some more Nunez in there and throw in some KD. Our 2 most athletic players should see more time against athletic teams period.

GonzaGAW
02-09-2014, 08:20 AM
thought I was cool with the loss, read a book, watched the news, went straight to sleep, then woke up at 4:30 and could not get game off my mind and never got back to sleep!

- pangos is not going to save our bacon on big games on the road, the 3's are documented that they do not fall, given he is hobbled he is an average player, but one I love, respect his grit and effort.
- bell, ????? he turns down good shot after good shot, and the team ends up taking a poorer shot because if it. has he lost his confidence?
- drainginis too has yet to really show up on the big stage
- Stockton was great, he did not let the other team pick his pocket or knock down his passes, if the other guards had been able to just play their typical game we win 12+ easy.
- thought dower play good, loved his entry passes to pk

- wife and I took visit to Memphis few yrs ago, loved the city. but their bb team, I have to say I'm really not liking them, they flat out are better than us, year after year, team vs. new team, their speed and athleticism beat us each time. I'm about to suggest few pull a romar and go no mas!

- go zags, we have more games to win, conference title! hoping for 8-9 seed, a win and second round match up with #1 seed wsu. then we go off for 14 3's and beat them.

demian
02-09-2014, 08:53 AM
I really could not believe that an uncontested layin was given up at crunch time. I don't know if I have ever in my life seen a play where a defender backs away from a guy his size on a layin in crunch time of a close ball game. I am sure I have never seen that. I think I could go watch a 1st grade aau ball game this morning and if it was a close ball game with two minutes to go some first grader would foul the hard enough to not get the ball to the rim or at least jump up and challenge the lay in and make the offensive player alter his shot a little. WEIRD play


I just watched the last 5:00 when the Zags were up by 9 points. I wanted to see what happened in those minutes. Gonzaga got 4 points, two on a layup by Dower, and two by Pangos on a Jumper at the elbow off a pick and role. Gary Bell gave up 10 points to Memphis, almost all in a row. He gave Dixon 8 straight points to get Memphis back within one, and later gives Dixon and uncontested layup on a fast break to put Memphis ahead. Why did he not FOUL HIM HARD? Also Bell made a crucial turnover and then fouls Dixon. This stupid play put Memphis within 3. Zags were ahead before the turnover and dumb foul. then Few inserts Stockton at the 3 min mark. Stockton turns the ball over a minute later and then on the next play by Memphis, Few switches to a Zone defense and Stockton gets out of position and fouls a penetrating Dixon. I aleady mentioned the layup soon after by Dixon where Bell lets him go in uncontested for a lay up.

Then with 30 some seconds left in the game, I believe on the very next possession by the Zags, Dower get off a shot, and makes it which would have put the Zags back ahead, and may have been the game winner. One problem, the 30 second buzzer went off a half second before Dower's shot goes in. It wasn't our night I guess.

On the Zags last play and behind by 3 points with 30 something on the clock, Few designs a play for Kevin Pangos to attack the basket off a screen. Kevin penetrates but Memphis blocks the lane to the rim and Pangos passes to the corner to Dranginis for the 3. As we know all two well he misses. It was a very good shot, but on a night when Dranginis has not been a factor at all on offense, and is suddenly the guy who takes the last shot to tie it up, to me does not seem like a good decision by Few. I don't believe that Dranginis has the confidence right now to make that shot. I would have loved to see Barham take that shot, and make it in the arena of the team that he used to play for. I also wonder about Bell. Why would Few not have Gary take that shot when he is one of our best 3 pt shooters? My opinion is that Gary's hand is bothering him.

Go Zags!!!

Reborn
02-09-2014, 09:11 AM
Yes indeed. Weird play for sure. The only thing that would make sense is Gary was protecting his hand. When I look at how Gary played last night, and especially in the last 5 min with GU up by 9, Few should have taken him out, imo. But, as I have learned about Few, he is faithful to his starters, and sometime it hurts the team. Memphis, on the other hand, had two guys playing off the bench during that game ending 5 minute run. Dixon comes off the bench and score 9 of his 11 points in the last 5 min of the game off Bell. There was another huge play by Dixon. After a missed shot, Bell gets the rebound and Dixon grabs it away from him, dribbles to the outside and nails a three pointer that gets that 9 point lead down to five.

gomemphistigers1
02-09-2014, 09:39 AM
There is a lot of craziness going on on the board. Usually is after a loss. One thing that many fans who are posting are failing to understand is that this Memphis team is really tough, and plays good defense. I really didn't see them making any more plays then Gonzaga, accept they were able to go to the free throw line. I was no more impressed with Memphis on offense then I was Gonzaga. We actually shot a lot better then they did. Our defense was actually better then theirs, and considerably better. I just love Gonzaga's defense. It was nice to see it on display against a team that doesn't know everything we do. PK was really good on D. Awesome really. And Memphis is considered to have pretty tough post players. At the beginning of the year Memphis was considered to have the best guards in the country, and they are pretty good. They definitely outplayed Gonzaga's.

I thought Stockton played a very good game, and was the only one able to get the ball into the post at the end. When he went out because he fouled out, our offense went to a complete stand still, with our guards dribbling around like a ship without a rudder. Memphis really cut off passing lanes at the end.

I will say one thing. I don't like Memphis' team. I didn't like their attitude on the court and how they complained about the few fouls that were called on them. And I definitely did not like what the player did to PK. And I don't care what anyone says, that guy did it on purpose. The replay clearly shows him grabbing PK's jersey and intentionally pulling him down. He hurt his knee, and I think kind of in shock, and was INEFFECTIVE the rest of the game. And the interesting thing about it is he Memphis player did it on the first play he came into the game, replacing their "stud" defender and scorer down low who could not handle PK. Memphis could not deal with PK, and I was just impressed. In my opinion there was only one way to get him out of the game and they did it. Intentional? Hell yes. I've played the game at that level, and I KNOW that there are players who will do that.

I promise you one thing. I will NEVER root for Memphis again. I really do hate dirty play that's designed to hurt a player, and that's exactly what I saw. And the guy who did it was a 300 pounder, the only one really capable of doing what he did.
I just hope and pray that PK is okay the rest of the year.

I also saw tonight how good our post players are in the post. Very, very good...as good as last year really. Now if we can find some guard play in the next month Gonzaga is going to be really tough to beat in March. I don't know about you, but the game showed me a lot. I feel GU stood up to the test, and especially on Defense.

Memphis made almost half their points the second half on free throws (17). Gonzaga made 3.
To me this game says absolutely nothing negative about the Zags. It was a heavyweight championship. It was a tough, physical game. And it was played in front of 18,000 crazy Memphis fans. That crowd tonight in the second half was awesome. I can see why kids coming out of high school want to play there. One last thing. Memphis is a pretty dominant Senior Team, and they showed it tonight. Keep your heads held up high Zags. There's nothing to be ashamed of. I hate losing as much as anyone, and the loss was painful, but more so to you then to me. Good game. Hang in there. The best is yet to come!!

Go Zags!!!

I would simply add that...

1) we don't need you to root for us.
2) if you think Pastner, the guy who doesn't cuss and has never had a drop of alcohol, would send in a player to hurt someone...you're nuts.
3) most Memphis fans felt Woodson deserved to get tossed...no room for that.
4) Pastner made Woodson apologize after the game.
5) you're right, the crowd was crazy in the second half. (See below)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/gomemphistigers1/image_zps86b8501a.jpg

gomemphistigers1
02-09-2014, 09:42 AM
And that was not the only shot they took at PK. I seldom do not admire the play of a team that beats the Zags and think they played a great game and congratulate them as such (like Portland's game in Portland). But, due to the way Memphis played - I lost respect for their program. And it's too bad for them. Any advantages that intentional injury play produces simply can't be savored as well as a win played with true sportsmanship. I hope the Zags can attract a better east of the Mississippi team to begin a series of games with and say so-long to Memphis. Memphis does not deserve to play the Zags again.

You want to act like that...call it off...we sure don't need the high and mighty Zags...I just lost respect for your fans and I hope we just buy out the damn contract.

Hoopaholic
02-09-2014, 09:42 AM
I would simply add that...

1) we don't need you to root for us.
2) if you think Pastner, the guy who doesn't cuss and has never had a drop of alcohol, would send in a player to hurt someone...you're nuts.
3) most Memphis fans felt Woodson deserved to get tossed...no room for that.
4) Pastner made Woodson apologize after the game.
5) you're right, the crowd was crazy in the second half. (See below)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y2/gomemphistigers1/image_zps86b8501a.jpg



I did not think the play was malicous or with intent to injury simply trying to ensure our BIG did not get the ball up to the rim.......I had no issues with that play and saw him come over to Karno while he was getting up and apologize which I thought was class act.

I didnt seen any dirty play...I saw very physical, very aggressive, very in your face defense but I like that kind of defense personally especially when you have the athletes to back it up

Baseline
02-09-2014, 09:56 AM
At the start of the season everyone was talking about our great guard play and shooting we would have and that we are weak on the inside. We are just the opposite of what everyone thought. Our bigs can play with anyone. Shem in particular is turning into a force. I have held off comment until I see him play with more athletic bigs. He looks to be about the same with the athletic ones as he is with the skilled ones, he adapts nicely. Sam can score with anyone and is expanding his game with more drives to the basket. The high low passing was great last night. Even the brief minutes by Ryan was sound.
The guards played very poorly once again. No 3 point shooting, not feeding the middle and no one taking charge, our strength is not our guard play, in my opinion we are about 4th in rank in our guards in the WCC. What happens to these guys, to regress so badly. Yes, the guys appear heart, but to allow mediocre play just doesn't seem to make sense. It appears that we will go through the year like this, so why not try and let them heal and give the others a chance to grow and step forward, it beats doing what we all know is going to happen.

This assessment may sound negative, but its not intended to be that way. If we can get the guards healed and maybe train their backups we could go into the tournament firing on all cylinders. With the potential we have with the inside game we could make a deep run if we can get more output from the guards. I do mean a deep run.

Zagceo
02-09-2014, 10:02 AM
At the start of the season everyone was talking about our great guard play and shooting we would have and that we are weak on the inside. We are just the opposite of what everyone thought. Our bigs can play with anyone. Shem in particular is turning into a force. I have held off comment until I see him play with more athletic bigs. He looks to be about the same with the athletic ones as he is with the skilled ones, he adapts nicely. Sam can score with anyone and is expanding his game with more drives to the basket. The high low passing was great last night. Even the brief minutes by Ryan was sound.
The guards played very poorly once again. No 3 point shooting, not feeding the middle and no one taking charge, our strength is not our guard play, in my opinion we are about 4th in rank in our guards in the WCC. What happens to these guys, to regress so badly. Yes, the guys appear heart, but to allow mediocre play just doesn't seem to make sense. It appears that we will go through the year like this, so why not try and let them heal and give the others a chance to grow and step forward, it beats doing what we all know is going to happen.

This assessment may sound negative, but its not intended to be that way. If we can get the guards healed and maybe train their backups we could go into the tournament firing on all cylinders. With the potential we have with the inside game we could make a deep run if we can get more output from the guards. I do mean a deep run.

Agree.

One of the tiger player in the post game interviewed mentioned "Gonzaga was big as a pro team". They were not ready for our bigs playing so tough and thats when the frustration started to show on the tigers.

75Zag
02-09-2014, 10:03 AM
GU lost an away game to a team with a national ranking that was more or less equal to GU's national ranking. I ask myself why all the bile and bitterness on this board following what could only be described as a predictable loss. I suggest that the reason for the outpouring of bitterness is that until yesterday's loss, there were a fair number of people on this board who had a dream that GU would beat Memphis decisively, run the table on remaining WCC games, dominate at the WCC tournament and then somehow, with a lot of luck, back into an NCAA game in Spokane. That dream, however unlikely it was, died in Memphis last night. And when people's dreams die, there is an outpouring of anger, grief, etc.

My dream for GU is to make the tournament, win 2 games, and go home with their heads held high. Given the challenges facing the team, I think that would be a successful season.

Go Bulldogs!

Hooplife18
02-09-2014, 10:13 AM
I would have to agree with gomemphistigers1 on the fact that Pastner would NEVER send someone in to intentionally hurt someone. Maybe send him in and tell him a corny joke to get him laughing and distracted (my fellow tiger fans will like that one) but never hurt someone. I made the post last night apologizing for the foul and how it was an embarrassment to us, but I really don't think there was malicious intent. I simply believe Woodson got beat and reacted by trying to commit a hard foul. Which ended up looking like a bad foul. There was no "mean faces" or talking smack after the foul. Just a look of "why did I do that?" on Woodson's face. He went over and apologized then went and apologized after the game

Reborn
02-09-2014, 10:52 AM
I would have to agree with gomemphistigers1 on the fact that Pastner would NEVER send someone in to intentionally hurt someone. Maybe send him in and tell him a corny joke to get him laughing and distracted (my fellow tiger fans will like that one) but never hurt someone. I made the post last night apologizing for the foul and how it was an embarrassment to us, but I really don't think there was malicious intent. I simply believe Woodson got beat and reacted by trying to commit a hard foul. Which ended up looking like a bad foul. There was no "mean faces" or talking smack after the foul. Just a look of "why did I do that?" on Woodson's face. He went over and apologized then went and apologized after the game

Sorry but I saw it differently. There is a difference between a hard foul, and someone intentionally grabbing a guy's jersey behind his neck and throwing him to the floor. I've watched the replay many times. Your Woodson first had his hands on PK's shoulders, and then suddenly grabs the jersey and THROWS HIM TO THE FLOOR. There is only one guy on your team who could do that, and it is Woodson, who just happens to weight 300 pounds and is 6' 10" tall. I saw Goodson huddled up after the play with a couple of his players. And he had a real big smile on his face. No! You are right. There was no anger on his face at all. Just a nice big smile.

I understand that basketball is a tough, rough game, and especially at the D-1 level. But there are limits, imo. I'm glad the refs agreed, and he had to leave the gym. And I hope there's a one game suspension. I don't know Pastner, and I'm not too sure what his philosophies are. Not drinking or cussing, to me has nothing to do with how a person coaches, nor his philosophies on how rough the game should be played. I also know one other thing, your players could not contain PK on offense, and he kept Goodwin on the bench for most of the game. Karnowski is a legitimate force in the middle on defense, and after his fall, he did not have quite the spirit that he would normally have.

These are my opinions regarding this. I know we differ. You are a Tiger's fan and I'm a Zag's fan. I believe that the referees agreed with my assessment of the play. It was intentional, flagrant too and Woodson was ejected from the game, and I think has to sit out the next game. Fortunately for you guys, you play UCF.

Hoopaholic
02-09-2014, 11:53 AM
Sorry but I saw it differently. There is a difference between a hard foul, and someone intentionally grabbing a guy's jersey behind his neck and throwing him to the floor. I've watched the replay many times. Your Woodson first had his hands on PK's shoulders, and then suddenly grabs the jersey and THROWS HIM TO THE FLOOR. There is only one guy on your team who could do that, and it is Woodson, who just happens to weight 300 pounds and is 6' 10" tall. I saw Goodson huddled up after the play with a couple of his players. And he had a real big smile on his face. No! You are right. There was no anger on his face at all. Just a nice big smile.

I understand that basketball is a tough, rough game, and especially at the D-1 level. But there are limits, imo. I'm glad the refs agreed, and he had to leave the gym. And I hope there's a one game suspension. I don't know Pastner, and I'm not too sure what his philosophies are. Not drinking or cussing, to me has nothing to do with how a person coaches, nor his philosophies on how rough the game should be played. I also know one other thing, your players could not contain PK on offense, and he kept Goodwin on the bench for most of the game. Karnowski is a legitimate force in the middle on defense, and after his fall, he did not have quite the spirit that he would normally have.

These are my opinions regarding this. I know we differ. You are a Tiger's fan and I'm a Zag's fan. I believe that the referees agreed with my assessment of the play. It was intentional, flagrant too and Woodson was ejected from the game, and I think has to sit out the next game. Fortunately for you guys, you play UCF.

I am a zag fan and did not see any malicous intent to hurt someone. There is a big difference in my book from malicous intent to hurt and flagrant one. The call was appropriate within the letter of the rule, but I never saw any ill will toward Shem like I have seen from other players committing fouls

Hoopaholic
02-09-2014, 11:56 AM
GU lost an away game to a team with a national ranking that was more or less equal to GU's national ranking. I ask myself why all the bile and bitterness on this board following what could only be described as a predictable loss. I suggest that the reason for the outpouring of bitterness is that until yesterday's loss, there were a fair number of people on this board who had a dream that GU would beat Memphis decisively, run the table on remaining WCC games, dominate at the WCC tournament and then somehow, with a lot of luck, back into an NCAA game in Spokane. That dream, however unlikely it was, died in Memphis last night. And when people's dreams die, there is an outpouring of anger, grief, etc.

My dream for GU is to make the tournament, win 2 games, and go home with their heads held high. Given the challenges facing the team, I think that would be a successful season.

Go Bulldogs!

agree with most of your assessment..I would add that some who have vile taste in their mouth is also due to leading the game by 12 and by 9 in a dominating fashion only to see it slip away.....that ending tends to bring out some peoples "anger"...I was pleased with the game but for the first 6 minutes and last 5 minutes, meaning the other 29 minutes I thought we played well on the road, in a hostile environment against a quick, athletic, aggressive, physical team.....the team demonstrated to me they can make noise in the tournament

MDABE80
02-09-2014, 11:59 AM
Sometimes things happen quickly, almost reflexively. Shem's fine. Woodson learned. Just an accidental bad outcome. I'd let this one go. Woodson apologized as he should. Seems like a good kid. Not the same as when Pargo was mugged a few years ago. Things happen in intense basketball situation. I'd call this one OVER.

ZAGLAWQB
02-09-2014, 12:07 PM
Tough Loss...Invaluable going forward...Memphis pace and strength similar to many potential 64s we might draw...our individual players patterns are set for the remainder of the season(notwithstanding diagrammed plays)...Our potential game IQ is in top 10...Coaches have chance to examine and plan for WCC tournament and "madness", hopefully next tough closer goes our way.

Oregonzagnut
02-09-2014, 12:09 PM
Woodson did kinda "Toss him aside" but I think no harm was intended. But he did clearly use Shem's momentum against him instead of trying to keep him up.

That play was a big one, but Shems blocked dunk by Jackson inspired the whole team and they ran us into the ground after that point. We dictated the pace up until that time, then the tide changed.

Reborn
02-09-2014, 12:46 PM
Sometimes things happen quickly, almost reflexively. Shem's fine. Woodson learned. Just an accidental bad outcome. I'd let this one go. Woodson apologized as he should. Seems like a good kid. Not the same as when Pargo was mugged a few years ago. Things happen in intense basketball situation. I'd call this one OVER.

thanks for the advice. I think I'll follow it. It's over. Let it go.

Hokis
02-09-2014, 12:52 PM
C'mon.. Blaming the refs????

The difference was the Memphis guards drove to the bucket and CREATED fouls


While I guards did nothing but pass it around until there was 8 on the clock shot and then panicked


Besides Stockton, and I thought he could of drove to SCORE more

ZagaZags
02-09-2014, 12:57 PM
Sometimes things happen quickly, almost reflexively. Shem's fine. Woodson learned. Just an accidental bad outcome. I'd let this one go. Woodson apologized as he should. Seems like a good kid. Not the same as when Pargo was mugged a few years ago. Things happen in intense basketball situation. I'd call this one OVER.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7vtWB4owdE

Reborn
02-09-2014, 01:10 PM
Do yourself a favor and watch this. It's hillarius. John Ballushi in Animal House.

GPGUgrad
02-09-2014, 03:01 PM
You want to act like that...call it off...we sure don't need the high and mighty Zags...I just lost respect for your fans and I hope we just buy out the damn contract.


Welcome to the Zags' Board after a loss. Don't take it personal, if you read the other threads, they are tearing up our coach and each other.

By the way, I still want to play you guys next year.

Zags11
02-09-2014, 03:16 PM
We crapped the bed in last 5minutes. Not a bad loss in any way. But, it was a poor ending. Gary bell better figure it out.

northsidezagfan
02-09-2014, 03:19 PM
On Court
Off Court
Player MIN RR +/- + - +/- + - S. Dower 37 4 -1 52 -53 -5 2 -7 P. Karnowski 33 4 -1 50 -51 -5 4 -9 K. Pangos 34 -10 -8 45 -53 2 9 -7 G. Bell 33 -18 -12 39 -51 6 15 -9 D. Stockton 25 6 0 35 -35 -6 19 -25 G. Coleman 15 6 0 20 -20 -6 34 -40 A. Nunez 1 -2 -4 0 -4 -2 54 -56 K. Dranginis 16 4 -1 25 -26 -5 29 -34 R. Edwards 1 8 1 2 -1 -7 52 -59 D. Barham 5 -2 -4 2 -6 -2 52 -54

+ = Team points scored while on court
- = Opponent points allowed while on court
+/- = Team points scored minus Opp points allowed
Off Court = Team points scored/allowed while off court
RR (Roland Rating) = On Court +/- minus Off Court +/-

Pretty self-explanatory this time. It's clear from the RR's who had a bad night (and the team played better in the absence of only those two on the court as well). Stocks and Coleman appear to have helped the team the most.

P.S. Dower played 37 minutes? Wow.

Edwards put up a trillion and got a +8? Kinda takes a way from the credibility of the Roland Rating a bit.....

Hooplife18
02-09-2014, 03:31 PM
Welcome to the Zags' Board after a loss. Don't take it personal, if you read the other threads, they are tearing up our coach and each other.

By the way, I still want to play you guys next year.

We still want to play you all, too. Let gomemphistigers1 cool down and he will come back calm and collected! Ha

GPGUgrad
02-09-2014, 03:38 PM
We still want to play you all, too. Let gomemphistigers1 cool down and he will come back calm and collected! Ha

Great to hear, lets keep it going.

I find both of our teams playing at this time of year, very beneficial (for both teams).
Think of preparing for the big dance.

caduceus
02-09-2014, 04:42 PM
Edwards put up a trillion and got a +8? Kinda takes a way from the credibility of the Roland Rating a bit.....

Good observation. The reason is that Edwards has statistically insignificant minutes. While his RR is positive, his minutes are near zero. You can effectively ignore the weight of his number in this case. Edwards' positive number does indicate though that the team did play better on the whole during the limited minute he was in the game (compared to the rest of the game when he was off-court). Doesn't mean much though.

In general the player with the best Roland Rating on a team is the difference maker (excluding the guys who play a statistically insignificant number of minutes). It's a solid stat to gauge a player's overall success to the team effort (both offensively and defensively). The stat gets even stronger when you combine minutes for the season. In the NBA, it's standardized to per 48 minutes for season RR's (for college, 40 minutes). One thing you cannot do with this stat, however, is compare players from different teams.

Here's the season's YTD Roland Ratings for the Zags' major players. The last column is normalized to per-40-minutes. You can see why Few is gun-shy of playing Nunez and Coleman big minutes. It doesn't tell you that they won't do well in future games. It simply tells you that the team historically has played less well as a whole when they are on the court (and/or better when they are off the court).



2013-2014 Zags Roland Ratings
Player RR Per Game Per 40 min
K. Pangos +285 12.4 14.3 D. Stockton +167 7.3 10.3 P. Karnowski +125 5.4 8.7 S. Dower +93 4.4 6.3 G. Bell +93 5.5 5.9 K. Dranginis +77 3.3 5.2 D. Barham +67 2.9 6.2 G. Coleman -128 -5 -17.5 A. Nunez -67 -5 -13.2

gomemphistigers1
02-09-2014, 05:02 PM
We still want to play you all, too. Let gomemphistigers1 cool down and he will come back calm and collected! Ha

I didn't mean all that...but I do know Pastner would never pull a John Chaney and "send in a goon" to hurt a player...can't wait to see us at the Kennel next season.

Oregonzagnut
02-09-2014, 05:09 PM
I didn't mean all that...but I do know Pastner would never pull a John Chaney and "send in a goon" to hurt a player...can't wait to see us at the Kennel next season.

Good thing we won't judge everyone by one bad apple.

GPGUgrad
02-09-2014, 05:18 PM
I didn't mean all that...but I do know Pastner would never pull a John Chaney and "send in a goon" to hurt a player...can't wait to see us at the Kennel next season.

I read your board last night and in your game thread, everyone in that thread, was not happy with that play.


Glad to see you back. Don't let some of our fans get to you. They are just pissed cause we lost.

ZagaZags
02-09-2014, 05:50 PM
We crapped the bed in last 5minutes. Not a bad loss in any way. But, it was a poor ending. Gary bell better figure it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dItgPZ7eC3s

northsidezagfan
02-09-2014, 05:53 PM
Good observation. The reason is that Edwards has statistically insignificant minutes. While his RR is positive, his minutes are near zero. You can effectively ignore the weight of his number in this case. Edwards' positive number does indicate though that the team did play better on the whole during the limited minute he was in the game (compared to the rest of the game when he was off-court). Doesn't mean much though.

In general the player with the best Roland Rating on a team is the difference maker (excluding the guys who play a statistically insignificant number of minutes). It's a solid stat to gauge a player's overall success to the team effort (both offensively and defensively). The stat gets even stronger when you combine minutes for the season. In the NBA, it's standardized to per 48 minutes for season RR's (for college, 40 minutes). One thing you cannot do with this stat, however, is compare players from different teams.

Here's the season's YTD Roland Ratings for the Zags' major players. The last column is normalized to per-40-minutes. You can see why Few is gun-shy of playing Nunez and Coleman big minutes. It doesn't tell you that they won't do well in future games. It simply tells you that the team historically has played less well as a whole when they are on the court (and/or better when they are off the court).



2013-2014 Zags Roland Ratings
Player RR Per Game Per 40 min
K. Pangos +285 12.4 14.3 D. Stockton +167 7.3 10.3 P. Karnowski +125 5.4 8.7 S. Dower +93 4.4 6.3 G. Bell +93 5.5 5.9 K. Dranginis +77 3.3 5.2 D. Barham +67 2.9 6.2 G. Coleman -128 -5 -17.5 A. Nunez -67 -5 -13.2

Yeah I know Edwards' # is insignificant, but where do you decide significance? Tough to even compare players on the same team when someone like Pangos has 8x the minutes Nunez does. Seems like you can only compare to players with similar minutes played if you want good comparisons.
And just to make sure I'm interpreting this data correctly (and it's very possible I'm not), does KP make 3x the difference KD does (roughly), and does DS make 2x the difference KD does (roughly), just for example?
Also, I may be asking a really dumb question here and the answer might be really obvious but why is there a difference between the per-game and per 40 minutes numbers?
Assuming:
-RR is derived from a player's +/- for minutes played and minutes on the bench
-the team plays no overtime games (like we have this season) so there are 40 minutes/game for the whole season
-the RR therefore considers the statistics for 40 minutes/game
how come there is a difference between a player's per game and 40 minute numbers? I understand how you can extrapolate points/minute out to a 40 minute game and get a half-decent estimate of what a player would score if they played all 40 minutes, but when a stat factors in time a player isn't on the court, how can it be extrapolated out to a full 40 minutes? I would maybe understand extending a +/- to 40 minutes, but not RR. Maybe that's what you did though.

Zags11
02-09-2014, 06:53 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dItgPZ7eC3s

Lol thank u

ZagaZags
02-09-2014, 07:08 PM
The Zags needed this guy yesterday. It would have been a GU victory. http://msn.foxsports.com/buzzer/story/pa-high-school-senior-becomes-unlikely-basketball-hero-020914

#33 in white.

caduceus
02-09-2014, 09:40 PM
Yeah I know Edwards' # is insignificant, but where do you decide significance?

Statistical significance is a mathematical determination, not an opinion or feeling. It basically measures the probability that your result is not due to random chance. The stronger the statistical significance, the more likely that the result is non-random. There are formulas to calculate degrees of error. For example, one might determine a confidence interval (i.e. a range) that the observed number is 95% likely to be non-random, which is pretty standard.


Tough to even compare players on the same team when someone like Pangos has 8x the minutes Nunez does. Seems like you can only compare to players with similar minutes played if you want good comparisons.

Not really. One of the nice things about RR is that it counts off-court time as well as on-court. Everyone that plays the game gets a value related to the team's performance. Off-court minutes plus on-court minutes equal 40 for everyone. The stat doesn't really "care" how many minutes you are on- or off-court (unless they are statistically insignificant). Plus/minus can be a useful stat, but it does have its faults. For example, if Mamery Diallo mirrored every minute that Adam Morrison played on the court, his plus/minus would be sky high. Since there are multiple combinations of players during a game, RR helps to tease out statistically relevant trends that otherwise might not be obvious. Roland Rating improves upon plus/minus because it adds another statistical element (i.e., team's performance when player is off-court) to decrease the probability of a player's performance being due to other variables.


And just to make sure I'm interpreting this data correctly (and it's very possible I'm not), does KP make 3x the difference KD does (roughly), and does DS make 2x the difference KD does (roughly), just for example?

No, it doesn't work that way. Basketball has way too many variables to refine a statistic to that level. Fouls, defensive matchups, injuries, time of day, coaching, and a million other things, all contribute to the result of a basketball game to some degree. What the Roland Rating does tell you is simply whether the team played better or worse in relation to that player's presence/absence on the court. It's not a direct measurement, but rather an indirect one, and is affected by all those variables. It tells you that the team nets +12.4 points against the opponent better per game with him on the court than off. Pangos plays more minutes than Kyle, so his influence, per game, is going to be higher. If you standardize the rating to "per 40 minutes", then you get a more accurate representation for player comparison, since you eliminate the "minutes played" variable. So, over the season to date, Kevin's play is associated with 2.75 times the net scoring rate for the team as Kyle's association is. I know, it's complicated.


Also, I may be asking a really dumb question here and the answer might be really obvious but why is there a difference between the per-game and per 40 minutes numbers?

See above. It's useful to measure "per 40" over a season, for player comparison. Not as useful when looking at individual games, since there are fewer data points. The "per 40 minutes" is somewhat arbitrary. It could have been per minute or some other unit, but it's a convenient one at 40 minutes. (Not a dumb question.)


Assuming:
-RR is derived from a player's +/- for minutes played and minutes on the bench
-the team plays no overtime games (like we have this season) so there are 40 minutes/game for the whole season
-the RR therefore considers the statistics for 40 minutes/game
how come there is a difference between a player's per game and 40 minute numbers? I understand how you can extrapolate points/minute out to a 40 minute game and get a half-decent estimate of what a player would score if they played all 40 minutes, but when a stat factors in time a player isn't on the court, how can it be extrapolated out to a full 40 minutes? I would maybe understand extending a +/- to 40 minutes, but not RR. Maybe that's what you did though.

RR standardized to "per 40 minutes" removes the "minutes per game" variable from the RR equation. It accounts for the variances in playing time between players. If a game went to overtime, I suppose you could account for that in the equation (although over a season, it wouldn't make much difference typically). So:

RR/40 = ((season total RR) (minutes/game 40 minutes)) (number of games)

Bottom line: There is no perfect performance statistic in Basketball (or any sport). Roland Rating tries to overcome some of the deficiencies of other statistical measurements by correlating a player's performance in relation to the one and only thing in Basketball that matters -- the team scoring more points than the other team (or, alternatively stated, preventing the other team from scoring as many points as you).

Hope that helps.

23dpg
02-09-2014, 10:01 PM
Good observation. The reason is that Edwards has statistically insignificant minutes. While his RR is positive, his minutes are near zero. You can effectively ignore the weight of his number in this case. Edwards' positive number does indicate though that the team did play better on the whole during the limited minute he was in the game (compared to the rest of the game when he was off-court). Doesn't mean much though.

In general the player with the best Roland Rating on a team is the difference maker (excluding the guys who play a statistically insignificant number of minutes). It's a solid stat to gauge a player's overall success to the team effort (both offensively and defensively). The stat gets even stronger when you combine minutes for the season. In the NBA, it's standardized to per 48 minutes for season RR's (for college, 40 minutes). One thing you cannot do with this stat, however, is compare players from different teams.

Here's the season's YTD Roland Ratings for the Zags' major players. The last column is normalized to per-40-minutes. You can see why Few is gun-shy of playing Nunez and Coleman big minutes. It doesn't tell you that they won't do well in future games. It simply tells you that the team historically has played less well as a whole when they are on the court (and/or better when they are off the court).



2013-2014 Zags Roland Ratings
Player RR Per Game Per 40 min
K. Pangos +285 12.4 14.3 D. Stockton +167 7.3 10.3 P. Karnowski +125 5.4 8.7 S. Dower +93 4.4 6.3 G. Bell +93 5.5 5.9 K. Dranginis +77 3.3 5.2 D. Barham +67 2.9 6.2 G. Coleman -128 -5 -17.5 A. Nunez -67 -5 -13.2

Incredibly revealing.

demian
02-09-2014, 10:17 PM
Yes indeed. Weird play for sure. The only thing that would make sense is Gary was protecting his hand. When I look at how Gary played last night, and especially in the last 5 min with GU up by 9, Few should have taken him out, imo. But, as I have learned about Few, he is faithful to his starters, and sometime it hurts the team. Memphis, on the other hand, had two guys playing off the bench during that game ending 5 minute run. Dixon comes off the bench and score 9 of his 11 points in the last 5 min of the game off Bell. There was another huge play by Dixon. After a missed shot, Bell gets the rebound and Dixon grabs it away from him, dribbles to the outside and nails a three pointer that gets that 9 point lead down to five.

yeah Dixon ripping the ball right out of our players hands after a missed shot and our player had the defensive rebound and then they hit a three pointer was a huge moment

northsidezagfan
02-10-2014, 03:23 AM
Statistical significance is a mathematical determination, not an opinion or feeling. It basically measures the probability that your result is not due to random chance. The stronger the statistical significance, the more likely that the result is non-random. There are formulas to calculate degrees of error. For example, one might determine a confidence interval (i.e. a range) that the observed number is 95% likely to be non-random, which is pretty standard.



Not really. One of the nice things about RR is that it counts off-court time as well as on-court. Everyone that plays the game gets a value related to the team's performance. Off-court minutes plus on-court minutes equal 40 for everyone. The stat doesn't really "care" how many minutes you are on- or off-court (unless they are statistically insignificant). Plus/minus can be a useful stat, but it does have its faults. For example, if Mamery Diallo mirrored every minute that Adam Morrison played on the court, his plus/minus would be sky high. Since there are multiple combinations of players during a game, RR helps to tease out statistically relevant trends that otherwise might not be obvious. Roland Rating improves upon plus/minus because it adds another statistical element (i.e., team's performance when player is off-court) to decrease the probability of a player's performance being due to other variables.



No, it doesn't work that way. Basketball has way too many variables to refine a statistic to that level. Fouls, defensive matchups, injuries, time of day, coaching, and a million other things, all contribute to the result of a basketball game to some degree. What the Roland Rating does tell you is simply whether the team played better or worse in relation to that player's presence/absence on the court. It's not a direct measurement, but rather an indirect one, and is affected by all those variables. It tells you that the team nets +12.4 points against the opponent better per game with him on the court than off. Pangos plays more minutes than Kyle, so his influence, per game, is going to be higher. If you standardize the rating to "per 40 minutes", then you get a more accurate representation for player comparison, since you eliminate the "minutes played" variable. So, over the season to date, Kevin's play is associated with 2.75 times the net scoring rate for the team as Kyle's association is. I know, it's complicated.



See above. It's useful to measure "per 40" over a season, for player comparison. Not as useful when looking at individual games, since there are fewer data points. The "per 40 minutes" is somewhat arbitrary. It could have been per minute or some other unit, but it's a convenient one at 40 minutes. (Not a dumb question.)



RR standardized to "per 40 minutes" removes the "minutes per game" variable from the RR equation. It accounts for the variances in playing time between players. If a game went to overtime, I suppose you could account for that in the equation (although over a season, it wouldn't make much difference typically). So:

RR/40 = ((season total RR) (minutes/game 40 minutes)) (number of games)

Bottom line: There is no perfect performance statistic in Basketball (or any sport). Roland Rating tries to overcome some of the deficiencies of other statistical measurements by correlating a player's performance in relation to the one and only thing in Basketball that matters -- the team scoring more points than the other team (or, alternatively stated, preventing the other team from scoring as many points as you).

Hope that helps.

Man, major stats flashback. I appreciate the explanation, thanks a bunch. Makes more sense now.

titopoet
02-10-2014, 03:52 AM
Actually, If you read the national reviews about the game, the national press came away impressed with GU talent and skill. Most have been either down on the Zags all year or flat out ignored them. The reality is that the Zags need to tighten up some lose bolts as a team and they could make a run in March.

titopoet
02-10-2014, 03:56 AM
I would have to agree with gomemphistigers1 on the fact that Pastner would NEVER send someone in to intentionally hurt someone. Maybe send him in and tell him a corny joke to get him laughing and distracted (my fellow tiger fans will like that one) but never hurt someone. I made the post last night apologizing for the foul and how it was an embarrassment to us, but I really don't think there was malicious intent. I simply believe Woodson got beat and reacted by trying to commit a hard foul. Which ended up looking like a bad foul. There was no "mean faces" or talking smack after the foul. Just a look of "why did I do that?" on Woodson's face. He went over and apologized then went and apologized after the game

I have to agree. It looks like Woodson was very frustrated and his frustration got the better of him. He was being schooled on national TV by a superior player and you can see his anger as he did it. My guess is that his teammates, judging by their reaction and emotion afterwards were not happy with his antics either. If not for what happen later, that would have been the story of the game.

wnczagfan
02-10-2014, 06:01 AM
Actually, If you read the national reviews about the game, the national press came away impressed with GU talent and skill. Most have been either down on the Zags all year or flat out ignored them. The reality is that the Zags need to tighten up some lose bolts as a team and they could make a run in March.


This is a good point. Looking back on the game, a few things stand out in my mind:

1) I was worried we would get handled from the very beginning due to their perimeter defense putting pressure on our ball handlers. I felt like we handled it very well and were able to adapt to their style of play and make some great plays.

2) When there is 15 seconds left on the clock before the half, why do we hold the ball until 7 seconds before "trying to make something happen"? It just seems like we should work the ball around for the whole 15 seconds trying to find the best shot, possibly taking it inside and drawing a foul. They still had time to get off a shot that I thought might go in anyway, so why not have been in that situation after having already gotten a quality shot of our own off first. I have seen this happen in several , and on at least one occasion I can think of, not even getting a shot off at all because we have waited too long. Keep playing!

3) When we build up a good lead, why do we suddenly quit doing what got us the lead in the first place? We have seen this time and time again, and it is the one area that the coaching staff needs to emphasize in my opinion: don't quit playing! We play not to lose our lead, trying to protect our lead, but the other team is playing to win. We need to stay aggressive, and keep the pressure on the other team. Instead, we slow things down, allow the other team to rest in place, and then we don't get off a quality shot. With our depth, we need to keep the pedal down. I would much rather lose the game playing the way we got us the lead, than lose it because we played like we were scared we were going to lose the lead. This is a game we should have won; The team played great for almost the entire game. We also passed up some open looks from the perimeter, maybe not as open as we would like, but as open as Memphis was giving. Again, I felt like the players were scared to take a shot and miss, because they didn't want to be responsible for us losing the possession. So instead, we end up taking a worse shot later, turn the ball over, or get the shot off too late. We would should have taken the open shot and worked for a rebound.

4) Don't forget to rebound! Several times it seems like I saw 4 Tigers around the basket to one of our guys, with some of our guys looking like they were already heading back to defend before Memphis had even secured the rebound. While I sure believe in getting back on defense, our possession isn't over until the rebound is secured, and it just made it look like we were conceding the rebounds to Memphis. Did any one else notice this? Key to the game: we were severely out rebounded, and shouldn't have been with the foul trouble they had and one guy out altogether.

5) I hear several people saying the refs "homered" us, and I am not going to argue that point as there may be some truth there. But what I saw was a lot of our fouls were stopping an easy Memphis layup from occurring. At this point, my only guess is that some of our players are out of position on defense, even thought they are great on offense. I have noticed in several games that Stockton looks like he has been pointing out to newer players where they are supposed to be. I expect that with practice this will improve in time.

6) Our team played really well, better than I expected and as well as I could hope for, for about 35 minutes. The problems I see and have noted above are all easily fixable through coaching, I would think. Whether they will be fixed remains to
be seen, as some of the problems have been around in one form or another for quite some time (how many years ago was the "game that shall not be named" where we played not to lose and Morrison ended up in tears?).

P.S. I think our coaching is good, and has put us in a good position. We just need to get out of our comfort zone and tweak some of these things in order to go farther.

zagfan24
02-10-2014, 06:30 AM
This is a good point. Looking back on the game, a few things stand out in my mind...

Nice post...some really good points. I'd add that I thought our big guys looked really tired near the end of the second half. I think that both Dower and PK played their tails off, but the lack of depth down low certainly hurt in that respect.

In retrospect, a close loss to a ranked team on the road isn't the end of the world. Had this not been our last chance to get a really quality win and stay in the top 25 it wouldn't have been much of an issue at all.

The Zags can still take care of business from here on out and continue to play in line with the talent on the roster, IMO...not an elite team but a very good one, and a group of very likeable guys that play hard and play unselfish (sometimes to a fault). This was a disappointing loss to be sure, but I still feel very proud of this group and maintain hope that they can catch fire late and go on a surprising run in the tourney. Only time will tell...

gamagin
02-10-2014, 07:18 AM
CAD: YOU da man !!

Thanks for all your work.

wnczagfan
02-10-2014, 07:36 AM
CAD: YOU da man !!

Thanks for all your work.

+1

SlammaJamma
02-11-2014, 04:50 PM
This is my first post here. I live in Memphis and graduated from UofM. I started keeping up with Gonzaga bball when Drew Barham transferred there. I will say I have been impressed with Coach Few and the players. Fundamental basketball, motivation, mentoring I think has been the key for the success of the Gonzaga program. I went to the game Saturday to see Gonzaga vs UofM. Guess what....I had on a Gonzaga sweat shirt that I ordered online.

I "was" a life long UofM fan until about the second year of Pastner's time as coach here. There is a very tight knit bball community here. Everybody knows everybody. The word was out after the second year Pastner was here that he had zero respect from his players. They would be late for practice, infighting, and basically had an "all about me" mentality.

So I look back at all the talent we have had and where Pastner has taken it. Granted Pastner has a great W/L record......but we were in the C-USA conference.....with the recruiting classes he has had I would hope to make it to the playoffs each year....which he has...well except the first year....NIT 2nd round and beat. Lets look at the rest:

--2009/10 NIT made it to second round
--2010/11 NCAA (round of 64)
--2011/12 NCAA (round of 64)
--2012/13 NCAA (round of 32) Michigan State spanked us

Again remember with the recruiting classes he has had it's an automatic to win the C-USA thus an automatic playoff in. When we play "a team" we struggle. Granted we finally beat our first ranked team since Pastner has been here just this season.

Pastner I hear is a very nice person. I think he does a lot for the community. He unfortunately is out of his element at this level of play. He would be better suited at a small D1 or a D2 school. The recruits and team members are typically inter-city kids that need someone they can respect and that can motivate them to play the game as a team. Pastner simply can't do that without being more hard nosed and holding them accountable for their actions....which he hasn't.

All this said notice I still refer to the team as "we" even though I wore a Gonzaga sweat shirt to the game Saturday and rooted for your Zags. The Tigers did play good D in the second half and I think that made the difference. Coach Few and the entire Gonzaga team showed class even after the obvious Flagrant 2 that got the Tiger player ejected.....another example of no control by the coach.

My prediction is "if" the Tigers make the playoffs we won't make it past the first round. We are in a different conference now that has "teams" in it.....so we'll see how the rest of the season goes. In the meantime I will continue to follow Gonzaga because I enjoy watching good coaching and kids that love the game and play as a team.......love it. I don't have that here......just hope we get another coach soon. Nothing against Pastner as a person.....like anything else....gotta call it like I see it....he needs to go.

Thanks folks

Reborn
02-11-2014, 06:03 PM
thanks for your thoughts. Welcome to our Board. You've given me some inside to a team (Memphis) that I saw on TV Saturday who looked mean, and self-centered (its all about me attitude). I felt the intentional-excessive force foul was so ugly. Some of my cohorts here disagree, yet I am glad that you do. Keep the faith.

Go Zags!!!