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View Full Version : Starting lineups matter



gonwick
02-05-2014, 09:29 PM
It has been postulated that it doesn't matter who starts and it all comes down to minutes. I think tonight is a great example of why starting lineups matter. The second half starters had very little to do with the success of the first half. Few just starts the same five every game and plays them about five minutes, barring foul trouble, for both halves. It's like he doesn't watch the first half. Few also almost never takes a timeout to stop a team's run, so he is basically committing the team to a predetermined plan for ten minutes a game, no matter what is happening on the floor. It is not as if all the starters are so clear that there should never be variation. His game management would also suggest that every team we play is the same and there is no strategy to be employed to maximize matchups. Memphis will be an interesting, and potentially painful, test case of this.

Birddog
02-05-2014, 09:53 PM
Perhaps the bigger point is that the opposing coach has no doubt about who GU will start the 2nd half with and what they will do. Now let's say Few decides to shuffle the deck and starts Dower, Nunez, Dranginis, Barham and Pangos for the 2nd and they go stale like what happened with the starters tonight. Then we as fans would all be shouting WHY ARE HALF OUR STARTERS SITTING ON THE BENCH! I do get your point though.

ezcure17
02-05-2014, 10:40 PM
Agree 100% with gonwick, it's as if he doesn't even watch the 1st half! Like this game, our same starting 5 seem to start off slow almost every game, then few went to Nunez and barham, and bam! We go on a run. Then instead of going for the throat, he takes them all out and puts back the same starting 5, and the lead goes from 20 down to 12. Start 2nd half, same thing happens. Where's Nunez, where's Barham, Kyle??? Portland goes on a run, brings them back in, we go up again, THEN, everyone who played great off the bench, ROTS there for the rest of the game!! We got VERY lucky to win this game. I always thought u STAY with the guys who got u the lead, and keep them in there until they either fall down from being tired or it starts to slip, NOT off a pre made script, because of minutes or whatever. The guys on the bench looked disgusted that they were still on there instead of in the game. Nunez has one of his best games and he is sitting there during a Portland run, watching the "starters" not get it done.

Mantua
02-05-2014, 10:46 PM
Great post gonwick. Why on earth weren't more defensive players subbed in early in the 2nd? Gary Bell has to shoulder too much without a defensive compliment. I would like to see the stats on Bell's performance with that lineup.

demian
02-05-2014, 11:07 PM
agree 100%


Agree 100% with gonwick, it's as if he doesn't even watch the 1st half! Like this game, our same starting 5 seem to start off slow almost every game, then few went to Nunez and barham, and bam! We go on a run. Then instead of going for the throat, he takes them all out and puts back the same starting 5, and the lead goes from 20 down to 12. Start 2nd half, same thing happens. Where's Nunez, where's Barham, Kyle??? Portland goes on a run, brings them back in, we go up again, THEN, everyone who played great off the bench, ROTS there for the rest of the game!! We got VERY lucky to win this game. I always thought u STAY with the guys who got u the lead, and keep them in there until they either fall down from being tired or it starts to slip, NOT off a pre made script, because of minutes or whatever. The guys on the bench looked disgusted that they were still on there instead of in the game. Nunez has one of his best games and he is sitting there during a Portland run, watching the "starters" not get it done.

jazzdelmar
02-06-2014, 05:13 AM
What subbing? Four starters each played about 30 minutes or more......Pangos (36), Bell (33), Karno (31), DS (29)....Still, if you watched the game you might think the bench got major mins. KD, for the record, was at 13 and AN at 12.

willandi
02-06-2014, 06:00 AM
Everybody is entitled to their opinion, just to get that settled, and we all know from previous threads that Mark Few is an idiot, so there's that. It's almost like he has been a Div 1 coach for 15+ years, and has developed a system, and that system has allowed him to win 80% of his teams games. Well, we all know the truth about THAT.
Anyway,...what was the topic? I forget so easily these days. Oh yeah, I agree with Jazz!

cjm720
02-06-2014, 06:09 AM
Coach Holmgren used to script out the first 20 plays of the game and never wavered.

Coach Few trusts his starters more, always has.

john montana
02-06-2014, 06:43 AM
What subbing? Four starters each played about 30 minutes or more......Pangos (36), Bell (33), Karno (31), DS (29)....Still, if you watched the game you might think the bench got major mins. KD, for the record, was at 13 and AN at 12.

KD with 13 minutes just confuses the heck out of me. The kid does everything well, and is our second best defender on the wing. He should be getting 25 minutes a night.

Goshzagit
02-06-2014, 06:51 AM
What subbing? Four starters each played about 30 minutes or more......Pangos (36), Bell (33), Karno (31), DS (29)....Still, if you watched the game you might think the bench got major mins. KD, for the record, was at 13 and AN at 12.

and in those (12) minutes, he scored 13 points.

not to mention drawing fouls (5-5 FT) and getting some tough rebounds in traffic and over people. Last night he was out of position ONCE in his 12 minutes, clearly more dialed in defensively, making the correct switches, very active on offense and in transition.

The kind of game/night, you REWARD a player for improving and making the right plays, esp one who has a short leash. If he is going to improve every game, keep a player with the highest ceiling this program has seen in years DIALED IN.

As I said in game thread, the kids had some fight and props to them, yet Coach Few was crap last night. His worst in some time. The players bailed him out last night. His lineups were painful and his use of timeouts cruddy.

Dranginis deserved to play in 2nd half -- he was the ONLY one setting players up consistently on offense last night and the reason Barham had wide-open shots, even Pangos was on receiving end, yet missed. Our 22 pt lead came during his 10 min run, same with Nunez, yet these kids barely touched the floor during the collapse.

Total $hit show last night by Coach in every facet of his responsibilities. Watch the game, make adjustments to your opponent, play your hot hand(s), reward your greatest talents when they play great, play the most effective lineups(not just who you personally trust), and be open to change, especially down the stretch.

Goshzagit
02-06-2014, 06:58 AM
KD with 13 minutes just confuses the heck out of me. The kid does everything well, and is our second best defender on the wing. He should be getting 25 minutes a night.

+1

Anyone else notice he was also hitting his shots and making unbelievable passes to find open shooters -- they didn't always hit(Pangos), yet some did(Barham).

His 10 mins was our big run. No coincidence, Coach.

I sometimes wonder if Few even watches the game or pre-scripts his lineups at certain times on the clock. No matter how the game evolves or changes, Coach Few still making inexplicable moves or no moves. We won b/c we hit key shots and our guys wanted it -- after giving up a 22 pt lead and not playing the players who earned that lead in the 2nd half -- we should have lost.

Thankfully, a senior bailed us out when it mattered most, yet it should never have come to that, especially at home.

Not playing Dranginis in 2nd half was just a microcosm of Coach's efforts or lack thereof last night. The icing on the rotation cake.

Kyle was playing amazingly well and distributing the ball and running the offense to a T....even Angel was finally playing perfect, fundamental defense and offense and being effective, yet still nothing in 2nd half...only our tired guys who weren't playing well, save Stocks and Dower. Everyone else who played well or doing well, were stuck on the bench, hoping for a miracle...a couple miracle 3's by Stocks won it, yet that is a stretch and won't happen on the road.

Unbiased
02-06-2014, 06:58 AM
It has been postulated that it doesn't matter who starts and it all comes down to minutes. I think tonight is a great example of why starting lineups matter. The second half starters had very little to do with the success of the first half. Few just starts the same five every game and plays them about five minutes, barring foul trouble, for both halves. It's like he doesn't watch the first half. Few also almost never takes a timeout to stop a team's run, so he is basically committing the team to a predetermined plan for ten minutes a game, no matter what is happening on the floor. It is not as if all the starters are so clear that there should never be variation. His game management would also suggest that every team we play is the same and there is no strategy to be employed to maximize matchups. Memphis will be an interesting, and potentially painful, test case of this.

"Danm the torpedoes! Full speed ahead."

SWZag
02-06-2014, 07:09 AM
I think Gonwick has a good point. Starting lineups do matter....

bballbeachbum
02-06-2014, 07:11 AM
KD with 13 minutes just confuses the heck out of me. The kid does everything well, and is our second best defender on the wing. He should be getting 25 minutes a night.

and his absence out there was noticeable. To get 25 minutes for him would mean a few less for David, less for Gary, less for Kevin, less for Sam and Shem...but maybe more for the team based on how it has performed with KD out there this year

zaguarxj
02-06-2014, 08:41 AM
I was asking myself "Where's Draino?" practically the entire game. I was thinking he must be sick or hurt but I dunno. I was also shocked when I saw the same starting 5 in the 2nd half when they were the ones who stunk it up at the beginning/end of the 1st. Inexplicable.

gomemphistigers1
02-06-2014, 08:58 AM
For comparison, Memphis pretty much runs a 7 man rotation...5 of the 7 are seniors.

G - Joe Jackson (five star, senior)
G - Chris Crawford (four star, senior)
G - Geron Johnson (four star, senior)
F - Austin Nichols (five star, freshman)
F - Shaq Goodwin (McDonalds AA, sophomore)
---------------
G - Mike Dixon (Big12 D-POY, senior)
F - David Pellom (GW transfer, senior)

jazzdelmar
02-06-2014, 09:06 AM
For comparison, Memphis pretty much runs a 7 man rotation...5 of the 7 are seniors.

G - Joe Jackson (five star, senior)
G - Chris Crawford (four star, senior)
G - Geron Johnson (four star, senior)
F - Austin Nichols (five star, freshman)
F - Shaq Goodwin (McDonalds AA, sophomore)
---------------
G - Mike Dixon (Big12 D-POY, senior)
F - David Pellom (GW transfer, senior)


Geez, talk about underachievers. Still, GU is doomed.

Birddog
02-06-2014, 09:10 AM
In the first game vs UP, Shem and Sam combined for 25 pts. last night they combined for 13. Most of that was on Shem who had a pitiful offensive output although his "D" was pretty steller. Like many of you, if I was the coach I would have played Dranginis more minutes.

Zagceo
02-06-2014, 09:16 AM
Erik Spoelstra, Heat coach, spent some time with Pete Carroll at training camp last August. I'm sure the word has been traveling around the sports world about his coaching philosophies and coaches want to tap into it.

I would hope that Coach Few would inquire about Coach Carroll and his coaching philosophies. Pete understands college kids and seems to run a similar program as to the way he ran USC.

You can never stop learning.