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View Full Version : So that happened. (UP Post Game thoughts)



DixieZag
02-05-2014, 09:12 PM
I have no idea.

ZagLawGrad
02-05-2014, 09:14 PM
I have no idea.

Agreed. Nothing else I can add.

hooter73
02-05-2014, 09:29 PM
yup.

caduceus
02-05-2014, 09:31 PM
On its face, it's inexplicable. Zags were 15 point favorites and we blew a 20+ point lead in head-scratching fashion. But basketball is (to a great deal) about matchups, and for some reason this Portland team appears to have our number. Clearly it's not because our team didn't have a fire under their butts. They knew the outcome of the last time they played.

Can't come up with a definitive explanation other than that, except
http://i.imgur.com/T6EiAMy.png

Birddog
02-05-2014, 09:35 PM
Heister and Fox did a great job calling the game.

DixieZag
02-05-2014, 09:37 PM
Heister and Fox did a great job calling the game.

:lmao:

And that girl hit the half time shot. . . so there's that.

wnczagfan
02-05-2014, 09:38 PM
Concerned we might not have that big of a cushion to blow against Memphis. This is the second game in as many weeks, if I remember correctly, that we have worked up a big lead and then squandered it inexplicably away. We are going to need to be "on" the whole game if we want to get the W Saturday.

Zags11
02-05-2014, 09:39 PM
I dont have much to add. Except we wiiiiiin.

wnczagfan
02-05-2014, 09:40 PM
I dont have much to add. Except we wiiiiiin.


Haha. Yeah, when you look back on it later, all the W's are W's.

TheZagPhish
02-05-2014, 09:41 PM
21-3

MDABE80
02-05-2014, 09:42 PM
Whatever that was, you can view it again on ROOT @ 1 am;). Be wary though, you might have a red face like I do:(

Section 116
02-05-2014, 09:55 PM
According to Brian Michaelson what happened was the Zags came out in the second half with no defensive intensity. He also gave Portland a ton of credit noting the Kennel is not an easy place to come back from such a big deficit. The interesting thing was Portland made their run with a couple starters on the bench. I think Hudson said it one point in the second half Stockton was 2-3 from three (Michaelson said Stocks has been shooting really well in practice and it was no surprise to him Stocks ended 3-4 from three) and the rest of the starters who were on the floor with him were 4-18 total from the floor. GU shot 70% in the first half or near that and they were like 7-10 from three. In the second half the Piolts were 6-8 from three and the Zags were 2-9. Much as the Zags were hot from three in the first half, Violette and Hudson noted once Portland drained a couple three the rest of the team caught fire as it were. Still as Michaelson noted the team is 21-3 and that has not happened many times for GU. He said maybe last year and a couple times in the past decade. The Zags are sitting at 11-1 WCC with a current three and half game lead. Two things that really caught my attention at the game is the Zags did a pretty nice job rebounding early in the game but that faded as the Pilots winning the rebound war and the eight offensive boards they had were way too many. The other thing I noted late in the game Pangos had 5, Dower 4 and Bell 2. I can't guess that last time that happened. Anyway a win is a win and Michaelson noted the Zags are now on the way to Memphis to face a very athletic at every position team, something they just don't see much of in the WCC. Here is a post game quote from Stockton: "We came out super hard in the first half," Stockton said. "In the second half I think we were dead for 15 minutes. Then we played super hard again for 5 minutes and got the win."

gamagin
02-05-2014, 10:08 PM
+1


According to Brian Michaelson what happened was the Zags came out in the second half with no defensive intensity. He also gave Portland a ton of credit noting the Kennel is not an easy place to come back from such a big deficit. The interesting thing was Portland made their run with a couple starters on the bench. I think Hudson said it one point in the second half Stockton was 2-3 from three (Michaelson said Stocks has been shooting really well in practice and it was no surprise to him Stocks ended 3-4 from three) and the rest of the starters who were on the floor with him were 4-18 total from the floor. GU shot 70% in the first half or near that and they were like 7-10 from three. In the second half the Piolts were 6-8 from three and the Zags were 2-9. Much as the Zags were hot from three in the first half, Violette and Hudson noted once Portland drained a couple three the rest of the team caught fire as it were. Still as Michaelson noted the team is 21-3 and that has not happened many times for GU. He said maybe last year and a couple times in the past decade. The Zags are sitting at 11-1 WCC with a current three and half game lead. Two things that really caught my attention at the game is the Zags did a pretty nice job rebounding early in the game but that faded as the Pilots winning the rebound war and the eight offensive boards they had were way too many. The other thing I noted late in the game Pangos had 5, Dower 4 and Bell 2. I can't guess that last time that happened. Anyway a win is a win and Michaelson noted the Zags are now on the way to Memphis to face a very athletic at every position team, something they just don't see much of in the WCC. Here is a post game quote from Stockton: "We came out super hard in the first half," Stockton said. "In the second half I think we were dead for 15 minutes. Then we played super hard again for 5 minutes and got the win."

this. Pilots really went for and got the boards underneath at both ends the last 15 minutes (double & triple teamed shem/SD), hit several treys and just crept back into the game while everyone dozed. good write up scoop. thanks.

couple other thoughts:

• I think KP had 5 points and GBj had two with around 10-12 minutes left in the game. thankfully, KP made his f.t.'s (6-7 I think). but we're going to need more points in Memphis

• KP seemed strong all night with the toe. Played excellent and very aggressive defense every minute. Did not seem to limp or favor it in my viewing, and I was looking and checking often.

ZagaZags
02-05-2014, 10:21 PM
21-3

Soon to be.... 29-5, 30-4 or 31-3. Which one do you pick?

I say 29-5

DixieZag
02-05-2014, 10:35 PM
Soon to be.... 29-5, 30-4 or 31-3. Which one do you pick?

I say 29-5

I would take that right now and run until I fell over - - about a hundred and twenty yards.

CDC84
02-05-2014, 10:40 PM
Not enough Dranginis for me in the 2nd half. The best defender on the team along with GBJ. The team's defense elevates to a whole new level when those two are on the floor. Might've put Portland's 2nd half comeback to a halt.

Mantua
02-05-2014, 10:41 PM
Soon to be.... 29-5, 30-4 or 31-3. Which one do you pick?

I say 29-5

31-3

I'm a fan, not an analyst or a critic.

ezcure17
02-05-2014, 10:43 PM
Agree 100% with gonwick, it's as if he doesn't even watch the 1st half! Like this game, our same starting 5 seem to start off slow almost every game, then few went to Nunez and barham, and bam! We go on a run. Then instead of going for the throat, he takes them all out and puts back the same starting 5, and the lead goes from 20 down to 12. Start 2nd half, same thing happens. Where's Nunez, where's Barham, Kyle??? Portland goes on a run, brings them back in, we go up again, THEN, everyone who played great off the bench, ROTS there for the rest of the game!! We got VERY lucky to win this game. I always thought u STAY with the guys who got u the lead, and keep them in there until they either fall down from being tired or it starts to slip, NOT off a pre made script, because of minutes or whatever. The guys on the bench looked disgusted that they were still on there instead of in the game. Nunez has one of his best games and he is sitting there during a Portland run, watching the "starters" not get it done.

hooter73
02-05-2014, 10:48 PM
Im guessing the idea was to light a fire and test the starters under adversity. Im no head coach, BUT I dont think we would have had the adversity to be tested under if someone had have left well enough alone.

we won... i guess.

DixieZag
02-05-2014, 10:48 PM
When we were struggling to score - we had a guy in Nunez who could get to the hoop, and if fouled, he hits at almost as good a rate as Kevin.

There really is no reason he shouldn't be playing more. I do not see a lot of value in a 3 guard line up when we have Nunez, Dranginis, Barham, Coleman all on the bench.

But, we've been over this.

john montana
02-05-2014, 10:51 PM
Not enough Dranginis for me in the 2nd half. The best defender on the team along with GBJ. The team's defense elevates to a whole new level when those two are on the floor. Might've put Portland's 2nd half comeback to a halt.

I agree. We are flat out better when KD is on the floor.

demian
02-05-2014, 11:04 PM
Agree 100% with gonwick, it's as if he doesn't even watch the 1st half! Like this game, our same starting 5 seem to start off slow almost every game, then few went to Nunez and barham, and bam! We go on a run. Then instead of going for the throat, he takes them all out and puts back the same starting 5, and the lead goes from 20 down to 12. Start 2nd half, same thing happens. Where's Nunez, where's Barham, Kyle??? Portland goes on a run, brings them back in, we go up again, THEN, everyone who played great off the bench, ROTS there for the rest of the game!! We got VERY lucky to win this game. I always thought u STAY with the guys who got u the lead, and keep them in there until they either fall down from being tired or it starts to slip, NOT off a pre made script, because of minutes or whatever. The guys on the bench looked disgusted that they were still on there instead of in the game. Nunez has one of his best games and he is sitting there during a Portland run, watching the "starters" not get it done.

agree with your post

2wiceright
02-05-2014, 11:06 PM
+1



this. Pilots really went for and got the boards underneath at both ends the last 15 minutes (double & triple teamed shem/SD), hit several treys and just crept back into the game while everyone dozed. good write up scoop. thanks.

couple other thoughts:

• I think KP had 5 points and GBj had two with around 10-12 minutes left in the game. thankfully, KP made his f.t.'s (6-7 I think). but we're going to need more points in Memphis

• KP seemed strong all night with the toe. Played excellent and very aggressive defense every minute. Did not seem to limp or favor it in my viewing, and I was looking and checking often.

No disrespect gamagin, but no matter how many times you watch Kevin's foot and try to figure out what, if anything, is up- you can't know what he is feeling. Every week from Few to Meehan to Violette, etc., I hear (and Zippyzag(sp) talked to him about it himself) he's in much pain and it is constantly being upgraded then downgraded from stage 1, then back to severe sprain. As CDC mentioned, re-watch him play in our early season tourneyment until he finally got hurt. Offensively he is not able to drive by people and pick up the easy fouls like he did earlier. I don't think a healthy Kevin would settle for set shots, he didn't early on this year. That was one big area he had impoved this year (noted often early on) was his ability to drive and dish, or drive and draw fouls almost at will. I agree with CDC, he's about 60% of his healthy self.
That doesn't mean he's not doing all he can to play through this and will the team to a win in clutch moments, or on defense. His late 3 (right before his clutch free throws) helped seal the deal. And most obvious was his outstanding Defense-as you pointed out. While I didn't play Div. 1 Ball, it was much easier for me to shut people down on defense than play fluent offense all the time when hurt (often played w/a sprained ankle- much less pain I would guess than turf toe). And unlike Kevin, I'm not as tough as him.... Just my humble opinion...

2wiceright
02-05-2014, 11:08 PM
I agree. We are flat out better when KD is on the floor.

Totally AGree!!!

caduceus
02-05-2014, 11:20 PM
On Court
Off Court
Player MIN RR +/- + - +/- + - K. Pangos 36 7 6 65 -59 -1 6 -7 G. Bell 33 1 3 58 -55 2 13 -11 D. Stockton 29 -5 0 50 -50 5 21 -16 P. Karnowski 31 3 4 52 -48 1 19 -18 S. Dower 21 3 4 41 -37 1 30 -29 G. Coleman 9 -11 -3 13 -16 8 58 -50 A. Nunez 12 -5 0 20 -20 5 51 -46 K. Dranginis 13 9 7 29 -22 -2 42 -44 D. Barham 15 3 4 27 -23 1 44 -43

+ = Team points scored while on court
- = Opponent points allowed while on court
+/- = Team points scored minus Opp points allowed
Off Court = Team points scored/allowed while off court
RR (Roland Rating) = On Court +/- minus Off Court +/-

The team was most productive with Dranginis (+9) and Pangos (+7). Interestingly, the team continues to fare less well against the opponent when Coleman (-11) and Nunez (-5) are involved. Despite Stockton's big offensive contributions tonight, he had a -5 RR since the Zags netted +5 points when he was off the court, and zero when he was on the court.

Mantua
02-05-2014, 11:31 PM
No disrespect gamagin, but no matter how many times you watch Kevin's foot and try to figure out what, if anything, is up- you can't know what he is feeling. Every week from Few to Meehan to Violette, etc., I hear (and Zippyzag(sp) talked to him about it himself) he's in much pain and it is constantly being upgraded then downgraded from stage 1, then back to severe sprain. As CDC mentioned, re-watch him play in our early season tourneyment until he finally got hurt. Offensively he is not able to drive by people and pick up the easy fouls like he did earlier. I don't think a healthy Kevin would settle for set shots, he didn't early on this year. That was one big area he had impoved this year (noted often early on) was his ability to drive and dish, or drive and draw fouls almost at will. I agree with CDC, he's about 60% of his healthy self.
That doesn't mean he's not doing all he can to play through this and will the team to a win in clutch moments, or on defense. His late 3 (right before his clutch free throws) helped seal the deal. And most obvious was his outstanding Defense-as you pointed out. While I didn't play Div. 1 Ball, it was much easier for me to shut people down on defense than play fluent offense all the time when hurt (often played w/a sprained ankle- much less pain I would guess than turf toe). And unlike Kevin, I'm not as tough as him.... Just my humble opinion...

I think the nickname "turf toe" is unfortunate. It's an injury to the ligament between the toe bones (phalanges) and the foot bone (metatarsal). Any injured ligament takes a very long time to heal. Every step hurts as every step puts pressure on the ligament. Foot injuries throw the entire body out of balance and stress muscles and joints.

Coaches tend not to advertise their players injuries too much. Sacre was playing injured for months before we caught on. I always wonder what's really going on with players when I usually expect more from them, but I have a very parental perspective towards the Zags as I think many in our community do also.

ZAGLAWQB
02-05-2014, 11:48 PM
Big time lead half-time philosophies.
1) do the math for the team based on a "3 point mindset"...lead disappears quickly
2) everyone quit looking at the clock...win both halves emphasis
3) "we did it in the first half( i actually tell the time on the clock when lead became >15) they can do it in the second half"
4) I jerk one or two guys very early for minor slips to get everyone on track fast
5) and last, I get in their heads---"nothing wrong with winning by 40 points, make it the team goal", guys mentally begin to change their play trying to hold a lead...this is BAD...coach needs to rant and rave as soon as he sees it.

Baseline
02-06-2014, 12:20 AM
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

ZagsGoZags
02-06-2014, 12:38 AM
There is the good news and the bad news. Which do you want first?

Bad news - Zags have been threatened continually (nearly tied up somewhere in last 5 minutes) during conference play by many teams not called BYU or St. Mary's.

Good news - we had what it took to win nearly all of them, somehow putting it together (even if one believes it should have never been that close)

Now that is good news!

now on to nemesis memphis

Oregonzagnut
02-06-2014, 06:38 AM
We let off the gas defensively and that was clear from the get go of the 2nd half. Portland saw it and planned for it because IMO, it is not inexplicable or coincidence. It is the trend and Gonzaga lets sup-par opponents back into games. Few is conservative by nature and he reigns in to become more conservative with big leads.

zagfan24
02-06-2014, 06:47 AM
Too much dribbling and not enough defensive intensity in the second half.

Hitting a host of outside shots early in a game is always scary to me, because unless it continues throughout the game the offense can get stagnant. I think the aggressiveness of Dranginis and Nunez was key last night for that reason. Some credit to our senior leadership as well for helping weather the storm and hitting big shots down the stretch (Dower's jumper and Stockton's three).

I'm curious as to whether Angel's increase PT was due to improvement in practice, Few knowing that he will be needed against the athletic Memphis forwards, or a combination of the two. I was really pleased with his play last night. I thought he looked far more in control but still flashed his incredible physical tools.

Unbiased
02-06-2014, 06:51 AM
I think the nickname "turf toe" is unfortunate. It's an injury to the ligament between the toe bones (phalanges) and the foot bone (metatarsal). Any injured ligament takes a very long time to heal. Every step hurts as every step puts pressure on the ligament. Foot injuries throw the entire body out of balance and stress muscles and joints.

Coaches tend not to advertise their players injuries too much. Sacre was playing injured for months before we caught on. I always wonder what's really going on with players when I usually expect more from them, but I have a very parental perspective towards the Zags as I think many in our community do also.

Agree on all points.

Any time there is ligament or tendon damage to the lower extremities they are slow to heal for two reasons: Less blood flows through ligaments and tendons makes the healing process longer; dealing with a lower extremity, the toe, (can't get much further away from the pumping heart) means the healing will take longer.

Continually aggravating the injured area is certainly not helpful for Kevin's long term health.

zag67
02-06-2014, 06:51 AM
First like has been said a W is a W. It was a tail of two halves. We did not protect the three in the second half. Also we missed multiple lay ins (that we cannot keep doing) because of rushing them or being too concerned about them fouling you. We also missed too many free throws by players who normally make them. But we did readjust and came back. This to me is a great positive. I also think that the middle of the pack in the WCC is a lot better and more productive. They all seem to be great three point shooters when they get hot.

bballbeachbum
02-06-2014, 07:05 AM
Not enough Dranginis for me in the 2nd half. The best defender on the team along with GBJ. The team's defense elevates to a whole new level when those two are on the floor. Might've put Portland's 2nd half comeback to a halt.

this. we were all talking about it on the game thread too. also think the twin tower lineup can have some problems defensively that KD seems to solve. the defensive game from the Zags in the 2nd half was pretty bad until the final minutes

what a challenge coming up Saturday!

RenoZag
02-06-2014, 07:06 AM
They all seem to be great three point shooters when they get hot.

Zags have a way of bringing out the best in our opponents' three point shooting. Not every night, but often enough to say it is a perennial vulnerability.

U Zig, I Zag
02-06-2014, 07:19 AM
Gonna get smoked by Memphis if our second half performance last night carries over to Saturday.

Someone else posted something along the same lines, but for crying out loud we need to stop playing conservative with big leads. It's ridiculous that we let these teams come back like that (while we're at home, none the less). You know what you do coming out of half with a 17-point lead? Press for the first 5 or 6 possessions. Assert your will defensively and that feeds the offense.

Stuff happens, opponents get hot, etc - but if you got a 17 point lead in the first half you can certainly play them at least even or better throughout the second half.

Kiddwell
02-06-2014, 07:21 AM
What happened?

IMHO, we stopped hustling. Big lead going into half time. Feeling cocky and superior. Pilots come out with their shorts on fire. We go: "Huh? But we're Gonzaga." Last few minutes, Zags realize, "We gotta play like our shorts are on fire too--ALL THE TIME!"

The End. :argh:



:[

willandi
02-06-2014, 07:36 AM
On Court
Off Court
Player MIN RR +/- + - +/- + - K. Pangos 36 7 6 65 -59 -1 6 -7 G. Bell 33 1 3 58 -55 2 13 -11 D. Stockton 29 -5 0 50 -50 5 21 -16 P. Karnowski 31 3 4 52 -48 1 19 -18 S. Dower 21 3 4 41 -37 1 30 -29 G. Coleman 9 -11 -3 13 -16 8 58 -50 A. Nunez 12 -5 0 20 -20 5 51 -46 K. Dranginis 13 9 7 29 -22 -2 42 -44 D. Barham 15 3 4 27 -23 1 44 -43

+ = Team points scored while on court
- = Opponent points allowed while on court
+/- = Team points scored minus Opp points allowed
Off Court = Team points scored/allowed while off court
RR (Roland Rating) = On Court +/- minus Off Court +/-

The team was most productive with Dranginis (+9) and Pangos (+7). Interestingly, the team continues to fare less well against the opponent when Coleman (-11) and Nunez (-5) are involved. Despite Stockton's big offensive contributions tonight, he had a -5 RR since the Zags netted +5 points when he was off the court, and zero when he was on the court.

A very interesting chart. While it doesn't deal specifically with the drop off at the strat of the second half, it does point out that replacing Stocks with Drangs would have a probability of giving us the best chance to outscore our opponent. It only deals with the intangibles, those things that don't show up in a score sheet, in an indirect manner.
While I was impressed with Nunez last night, both offensively and defensively, this seems to show that while he was on the floor, it was a wash, but the team outscored Portland by 5 while he was on the bench.
I don't know if this is one of those cases that you are making statistics show a particular point, or not...but it is very interesting.
Thanks for doing the work and posting it.

JPtheBeasta
02-06-2014, 07:42 AM
Dower, Pangos and Bell needed to put up more shots.

gamagin
02-06-2014, 07:43 AM
No disrespect gamagin, but no matter how many times you watch Kevin's foot and try to figure out what, if anything, is up- you can't know what he is feeling. Every week from Few to Meehan to Violette, etc., I hear (and Zippyzag(sp) talked to him about it himself) he's in much pain and it is constantly being upgraded then downgraded from stage 1, then back to severe sprain. As CDC mentioned, re-watch him play in our early season tourneyment until he finally got hurt. Offensively he is not able to drive by people and pick up the easy fouls like he did earlier. I don't think a healthy Kevin would settle for set shots, he didn't early on this year. That was one big area he had impoved this year (noted often early on) was his ability to drive and dish, or drive and draw fouls almost at will. I agree with CDC, he's about 60% of his healthy self.
That doesn't mean he's not doing all he can to play through this and will the team to a win in clutch moments, or on defense. His late 3 (right before his clutch free throws) helped seal the deal. And most obvious was his outstanding Defense-as you pointed out. While I didn't play Div. 1 Ball, it was much easier for me to shut people down on defense than play fluent offense all the time when hurt (often played w/a sprained ankle- much less pain I would guess than turf toe). And unlike Kevin, I'm not as tough as him.... Just my humble opinion...

2wice:
None taken. Not really sure what you are saying, however.

I didn't t claim anything except observation through the game. During timeouts, warm ups, stretching, walking between timeouts bouncing around. His foot movement when setting up, taking free throws, planting, crashing outta bounds, aggressive moves, challenging defensively -- all of which indicated he wasn't favoring it. I was amazed and pleased for him. I still am. Fwiw.

Reborn
02-06-2014, 08:47 AM
The team was most productive with Dranginis (+9) and Pangos (+7). Interestingly, the team continues to fare less well against the opponent when Coleman (-11) and Nunez (-5) are involved. Despite Stockton's big offensive contributions tonight, he had a -5 RR since the Zags netted +5 points when he was off the court, and zero when he was on the court.

I believe the reason this can happen, that Stockton can score points yet still end up with a negative number, is because Stockton isn't always playing good defense. I watch him on D all the time, and too often it's the guy he's guarding who is hitting all those 3's. Yes. He steals the ball at times on D, but imo, it is not enough to make up for his "very poor" defense. If the other team is really "lighting it up" it's almost a guarantee Stockton is on the court. But once again, Few favors good offense over good defense. And yet, to his credit, he was on the court at the end of the game (last 7 minutes). When he came into the game we were ahead by 3 and we won by 5. However, as soon as Stockton came into the game the man he was guarding hit two threes and Portland gets its first lead. I was very nervous with him on the court to tell you the truth, but he did score some nice points in that last 7 minutes, and the offense finally got running again. I think up to that point (the seven minute mark in the game) the offense had only scored 11 points. Yep. 11 points in 13 minutes. And yet, as it turned out the Zags did score 20 points in those last 7 minutes, which is scoring at a pretty good pace. And Stockton did score six points out of those final 20, and one of those baskets was a beautiful 3 point shot.

I agree with those who was surprised that Dranginis didn't play more.

vandalzag
02-06-2014, 09:35 AM
I believe the reason this can happen, that Stockton can score points yet still end up with a negative number, is because Stockton isn't always playing good defense. I watch him on D all the time, and too often it's the guy he's guarding who is hitting all those 3's. Yes. He steals the ball at times on D, but imo, it is not enough to make up for his "very poor" defense. If the other team is really "lighting it up" it's almost a guarantee Stockton is on the court. But once again, Few favors good offense over good defense. And yet, to his credit, he was on the court at the end of the game (last 7 minutes). When he came into the game we were ahead by 3 and we won by 5. However, as soon as Stockton came into the game the man he was guarding hit two threes and Portland gets its first lead. I was very nervous with him on the court to tell you the truth, but he did score some nice points in that last 7 minutes, and the offense finally got running again. I think up to that point (the seven minute mark in the game) the offense had only scored 11 points. Yep. 11 points in 13 minutes. And yet, as it turned out the Zags did score 20 points in those last 7 minutes, which is scoring at a pretty good pace. And Stockton did score six points out of those final 20, and one of those baskets was a beautiful 3 point shot.

I agree with those who was surprised that Dranginis didn't play more.


OK So not to let facts get in the way of a good argument but:
The First 3 at 7:12 was the transition runner that Sharp(Pangos or Bells man) that DS rotated over because Pangos was late down the court. The shot was not high percentage and really could not have been contested any better unless Stockton was a foot taller. Defensively he was where he was supposed to be(rotating back on a miss and taking the first man down the floor)but give Sharp credit for hitting a tough shot with somebody in his face.
The 2nd a 6:52 was by Pressley, Pangos got pinned down low, because Shem and Dower are late and Pangos had to cover Nicholas leaving Pangos' man Pressley wide open for 3 after Stockton stopped the dribble drive Wintering.
DS man for most of the game was Wintering(3 pts) and Carr (2Pts). Stockton is not the best defender on the team, but to put the scoring run of Portland on him is just foolish. Want to blame the run on somebody, Nicholas had 15 rebounds, Zags 3 bigs combined for 15 rebounds. No rebounds no transition, thus GU only gets 43 shots up in the game. I guess you could blame Stockton for the rebounding and holding Dower and Bell to 10 shots. I agree that KD should have been playing more, but last night he should have been taking Bell's minutes.

Zag 77
02-06-2014, 10:13 AM
Needs to get back to basics.:enraged:

bballbeachbum
02-06-2014, 10:43 AM
I agree that KD should have been playing more, but last night he should have been taking Bell's minutes.

hey vandal, just on this part of your post, I get the sentiment last night. interestingly, Gary still came up big late to help get the win on both ends of the floor

will be interesting to watch this develop.

gamagin
02-06-2014, 11:33 AM
disagree.


I believe the reason this can happen, that Stockton can score points yet still end up with a negative number, is because Stockton isn't always playing good defense. I watch him on D all the time, and too often it's the guy he's guarding who is hitting all those 3's. Yes. He steals the ball at times on D, but imo, it is not enough to make up for his "very poor" defense. If the other team is really "lighting it up" it's almost a guarantee Stockton is on the court. But once again, Few favors good offense over good defense. And yet, to his credit, he was on the court at the end of the game (last 7 minutes). When he came into the game we were ahead by 3 and we won by 5. However, as soon as Stockton came into the game the man he was guarding hit two threes and Portland gets its first lead. I was very nervous with him on the court to tell you the truth, but he did score some nice points in that last 7 minutes, and the offense finally got running again. I think up to that point (the seven minute mark in the game) the offense had only scored 11 points. Yep. 11 points in 13 minutes. And yet, as it turned out the Zags did score 20 points in those last 7 minutes, which is scoring at a pretty good pace. And Stockton did score six points out of those final 20, and one of those baskets was a beautiful 3 point shot.

I agree with those who was surprised that Dranginis didn't play more.

stocks leaves his man. he floats. he's like a free safety. If he stuck to his guy he could pad his figures all night long like several do (just by doing nothing else). it's too easy to see if you are wiling to see. he's doubling down. it's his job. Others stick a hand in now and again. DS has his hands in the stew all the time. to you that is poor D. To me it is normal. Same with KD. he's playing the whole floor. He is supposed to. GBj is usually tethered to their hotshot. now way is he floating, for e.g. and he does a good job. not a knock but it is one dimensional.

Have you or anyone, one time, heard Few or any coach besides here on this board, someone actually in the know, complain that DS should not be roving around, backing in to the middle to take on a driver, or doubling down on a shooter, or stripping someone underneath, or poking the other guy's man ? Or anything like that ? I'd like to see the url. I don't think it exists but I'm open if that is incorrect.

re KD: I agree with Vandal. I would have put him in for GBj or KP with instructions to get open and shoot. D wasn't really the problem in the final analysis. shooting and scoring was. and they shot and scored more in that two-third mark and we didn't. imo.

75Zag
02-06-2014, 11:35 AM
A win is a win. But as we approach the WCC and NCAA tournaments, I can only hope that, like my broker always says, past results are not an indicator of future results. Hopefully we put the 2 Portland games and the St. Mary's game behind us and move ahead.

Go Bulldogs!

caduceus
02-06-2014, 11:58 AM
A very interesting chart. While it doesn't deal specifically with the drop off at the strat of the second half, it does point out that replacing Stocks with Drangs would have a probability of giving us the best chance to outscore our opponent. It only deals with the intangibles, those things that don't show up in a score sheet, in an indirect manner.
While I was impressed with Nunez last night, both offensively and defensively, this seems to show that while he was on the floor, it was a wash, but the team outscored Portland by 5 while he was on the bench.
I don't know if this is one of those cases that you are making statistics show a particular point, or not...but it is very interesting.
Thanks for doing the work and posting it.

Not sure if it suggests that replacing Stocks directly with KD would necessarily have made a difference (since the stat doesn't really work that way). Most of KD's positive contributions were in the first half, and EVERYONE on the team had significantly negative plus/minus in the early second half. Stockton's plus/minus was actually slightly better than Dranginis' in the second half.

Not trying to make a particular point. Just trying to analyze the game and add to the conversation.

Cheers.

DADoZAG
02-06-2014, 12:08 PM
As is usual, folks see what they want to see, but Vandal's comment on how DS could be a better defender is well taken (although it should be "longer", not "taller").

What is curious to me is that it was, from memory, a 33-11 run by Portland before a time out was called. Or did I miss one in there somewhere? Could be.

Sure, there were breaks in the game, but it's interesting how right after the time out was taken when the ZAGS were down 54-51, it thankfully reversed, 20-12.

Whatever speech was given, uhhh, how 'bout pulling it out a bit sooner?

Go ZAGS!

coolhandzag
02-06-2014, 12:33 PM
We let off the gas defensively and that was clear from the get go of the 2nd half. Portland saw it and planned for it because IMO, it is not inexplicable or coincidence. It is the trend and Gonzaga lets sup-par opponents back into games. Few is conservative by nature and he reigns in to become more conservative with big leads.

Yep.

Section 116
02-06-2014, 01:32 PM
One other of Brian Michaelson's post game radio comments was along the lines of much of our offense is generated by our defense and when we decide not to play defense, as was the case during last night's second half, the offense is stagnant at best!

bballbeachbum
02-06-2014, 01:35 PM
disagree.



stocks leaves his man. he floats. he's like a free safety. If he stuck to his guy he could pad his figures all night long like several do (just by doing nothing else). it's too easy to see if you are wiling to see. he's doubling down. it's his job. Others stick a hand in now and again. DS has his hands in the stew all the time. to you that is poor D. To me it is normal. Same with KD. he's playing the whole floor. He is supposed to. GBj is usually tethered to their hotshot. now way is he floating, for e.g. and he does a good job. not a knock but it is one dimensional.

Have you or anyone, one time, heard Few or any coach besides here on this board, someone actually in the know, complain that DS should not be roving around, backing in to the middle to take on a driver, or doubling down on a shooter, or stripping someone underneath, or poking the other guy's man ? Or anything like that ? I'd like to see the url. I don't think it exists but I'm open if that is incorrect.

re KD: I agree with Vandal. I would have put him in for GBj or KP with instructions to get open and shoot. D wasn't really the problem in the final analysis. shooting and scoring was. and they shot and scored more in that two-third mark and we didn't. imo.

hey gamagin, there's a lot in there, have to break it down a bit to respond.


Have you or anyone, one time, heard Few or any coach besides here on this board, someone actually in the know, complain that DS should not be roving around, backing in to the middle to take on a driver, or doubling down on a shooter, or stripping someone underneath, or poking the other guy's man ? Or anything like that ? I'd like to see the url. I don't think it exists but I'm open if that is incorrect.

here's a quote from Few last March that speaks to that point below http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865576343/NCAA-tournament-David-Stockton-returns-to-the-arena-where-his-father-was-an-NBA-legend.html?pg=all



"David's unbelievable. He's fearless like John," said Gonzaga coach Mark Few. "He has an incredible innate feel for the game. He can make passes in the smallest of windows that there's nobody on our team capable of doing, and there are very few people in college basketball that can make those plays. He's got a great knack, just like John did, off the ball on defense for making plays."




regarding D wasn't the problem, just can't agree there. Looked like GU thought the game was already over when the second half started on defense while Portland attacked hard and scored easily and often and got after the O glass, though I agree that this GU team will often need to outscore its opponents to win, which is fine! would like to see some numbers analysis on the team's efficiency when Shem and Sam play together

anyway, not Gary's best game but he hardly sucked, tho most agree KD deserves to be out there more somehow whoever those minutes come from. I know I believe that. But glad Gary was in down the stretch as he caused a turnover with his one dimensional D on one late Portland drive to the hoop (had to tickle you on that call gamagin ;)) and then drove and dished to a wide open KP at the top of the key for his late 3.

on David, when he hits his 3s GU is pretty unstoppable since teams dare him to do it. It's an awesome weapon imo, knowing teams will dare you. he's tough and smart and can throw daggers from that challenge

Zagger
02-06-2014, 03:04 PM
The Zags have a lot of good players but no great players. That's just a flat out fact as things stand at the moment IMHO. Could a few of the team become great players - I sure think so. I actually think who's getting what playing time is going pretty well. The players on the floor who know and execute what coach wants are getting good minutes. Also, other players like Angel and Gerard are getting quality time and they're getting noticeably better. If the team can stay healthy and injury free they're going to be harder and harder to beat. I'm quite optimistic about the Memphis game. The Zags are going to be pesky due to having a national reputation type of game being played. The Memphis game might as well be thought of as an NCAA tournament game. If the team isn't darn hungry for a win against Memphis then I certainly have no idea what their dietary needs are. The Zags will win Saturday with discipline, effort and concentration - they have the skills - they need to clean up their execution. Can this team put together a pretty win against Memphis? We won't have much longer before we know.

john montana
02-06-2014, 04:10 PM
Normally I agree with you gamagin, but over the course of this year I have fallen into the camp of DS doing more harm than good with his gambling on defense. Love the kid for his court savvy and moxie, but KD, Bell, and Pangos (to me) are not only better players, but a better unit when on the floor together.

gamagin
02-06-2014, 07:59 PM
hey gamagin, there's a lot in there, have to break it down a bit to respond.



here's a quote from Few last March that speaks to that point below http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865576343/NCAA-tournament-David-Stockton-returns-to-the-arena-where-his-father-was-an-NBA-legend.html?pg=all







regarding D wasn't the problem, just can't agree there. Looked like GU thought the game was already over when the second half started on defense while Portland attacked hard and scored easily and often and got after the O glass, though I agree that this GU team will often need to outscore its opponents to win, which is fine! would like to see some numbers analysis on the team's efficiency when Shem and Sam play together

anyway, not Gary's best game but he hardly sucked, tho most agree KD deserves to be out there more somehow whoever those minutes come from. I know I believe that. But glad Gary was in down the stretch as he caused a turnover with his one dimensional D on one late Portland drive to the hoop (had to tickle you on that call gamagin ;)) and then drove and dished to a wide open KP at the top of the key for his late 3.

on David, when he hits his 3s GU is pretty unstoppable since teams dare him to do it. It's an awesome weapon imo, knowing teams will dare you. he's tough and smart and can throw daggers from that challenge

Bum: thanks your note.

what I mean when I say D wasn't the problem is this. we went to sleep, They came alive. Three different Pilots casted shots off from way above the perimeter and they went in. nine points in a flash. D wasn't the problem when the bigs didn't get the put backs or the rebounds underneath at about the same time.

D suggests we broke down instead of they cast off and just went for it. and it worked. They had nothing to loose. if one of those guys dropped kicked a shot, it would not have mattered.

to their credit they didn't give up and they exploited the openings we gave them. they scraped the ball out of shem's hands etc etc. frankly, they were stripping the ball outta shem's hands the whole night. DB's hands, too. and SD's when he was engaged.

basically, I believe anyone wishing to shoot half court can do so. some of you have made a career out of believing we should always challenge the three. I say it depends. the argument will never end.

But, to me, suggesting we failed to guard them as they stepped over half court a few steps and shot suggests we had a plan for three average shooters to hit three trays.

turning that into a defensive defect ? The reason we got behind ? I disagree.

They got back because our offense collapsed. We stopped scoring. we went one and done numerous times. Our offense went to he!!. we stopped shooting. except nunez. when we shot and it didn't go in, the Pilots tripled the rebound and shem and SD and I don't recall us getting a putback, despite a height advantage the entire (what I like to call) third quarter.

at that point (keerist I'm getting tired of saying this) GBj had TWO points and KP had 5. For 3/4ths of the game game.

If you guys want to spend the rest of DS's career trying to figure out how to get him out of the game, the least you can do is spend an equal amount of time and figure out which player, of all the starters, has hit his numbers consistently, game to game all year long. who has been willing to shoot. willing to pass into heavy traffic. willing to collapse in and help a teammate and basically bust his arse every game. some have higher averages but I'm talking game to game.

I don't keep stats. I watch the game. I see who is doing what. What GBj and KP were doing for 3/4ths of the games has all of you to explain, apparently speaking with one voice. They had their moments but they did not include scoring. imo, they are in there to score. so why doesn't that skew the analysis ?

Despite excellent defense at times, it was our missed shots (again) and our lack of rebounding (again) that encouraged the Pilots to just go for it. Had KP not come alive at the end, along with DS, I can easily see a loss.

I suggested strongly a couple days before the game. I quoted Few saying they needed to hunt and shoot more. I said after the game they better get the message w/Memphis or the game will be on DS and KD to take over the shooting. and hopefully AN can put together back to back production like Wednesday night.

Most of the discussion and the buzz afterwards went back to the well worn saw about all those players who SHOULD be consistent but aren't.

If you all think DS and KD, for that matter, are the keys to what's right and wrong, I disagree again. Shem and SD and DS and KD all have to hit their numbers and meet their expectations if we're going to win the rest of this season.

But among them all, the steadiest hand on that court, wild and crazy as well at times, but less so statistically, has been DS. Throw in KD for the past 6-8 games, and there are two whom we can pretty much count on to meet or exceed their averages. Meantime, why aren't you asking about the players who have not been hitting their numbders. Because there have been anywhere from 20-30 points or more not on the board because of that void, I estimate.

And the only way, imo, those numbers are going to go up, if they are going to go up, is to have the shooters shoot while the bigs get and keep their positions and we get back to team basketball on offense like we seem to do pretty well on defense when we set our minds to it.

2wiceright
02-06-2014, 10:12 PM
2wice:
None taken. Not really sure what you are saying, however.

I didn't t claim anything except observation through the game. During timeouts, warm ups, stretching, walking between timeouts bouncing around. His foot movement when setting up, taking free throws, planting, crashing outta bounds, aggressive moves, challenging defensively -- all of which indicated he wasn't favoring it. I was amazed and pleased for him. I still am. Fwiw.

Thanks for your observations Gamagin! After re-reading your post I think I was reading more into it than what was really there. I guess that's where that old saying comes from.....you know, about making assumptions :) .
Let's just hope he's moving well AND HITTING THREES against Memphis.... Otherwise it could be a long afternoon on Saturday... Thanks again for your always informative posts, Gamagin!

Reborn
02-07-2014, 05:23 AM
what I mean when I say D wasn't the problem is this. we went to sleep, They came alive. Three different Pilots casted shots off from way above the perimeter and they went in. nine points in a flash. D wasn't the problem when the bigs didn't get the put backs or the rebounds underneath at about the same time.

D suggests we broke down instead of they cast off and just went for it. and it worked. They had nothing to loose. if one of those guys dropped kicked a shot, it would not have mattered.

to their credit they didn't give up and they exploited the openings we gave them. they scraped the ball out of shem's hands etc etc. frankly, they were stripping the ball outta shem's hands the whole night. DB's hands, too. and SD's when he was engaged.

They got back because our offense collapsed. We stopped scoring. we went one and done numerous times. Our offense went to he!!. we stopped shooting. except nunez. when we shot and it didn't go in, the Pilots tripled the rebound and shem and SD and I don't recall us getting a putback, despite a height advantage the entire (what I like to call) third quarter.

at that point (keerist I'm getting tired of saying this) GBj had TWO points and KP had 5. For 3/4ths of the game game.

If you guys want to spend the rest of DS's career trying to figure out how to get him out of the game, the least you can do is spend an equal amount of time and figure out which player, of all the starters, has hit his numbers consistently, game to game all year long. who has been willing to shoot. willing to pass into heavy traffic. willing to collapse in and help a teammate and basically bust his arse every game. some have higher averages but I'm talking game to game.

I suggested strongly a couple days before the game. I quoted Few saying they needed to hunt and shoot more. I said after the game they better get the message w/Memphis or the game will be on DS and KD to take over the shooting. and hopefully AN can put together back to back production like Wednesday night.

Most of the discussion and the buzz afterwards went back to the well worn saw about all those players who SHOULD be consistent but aren't.

If you all think DS and KD, for that matter, are the keys to what's right and wrong, I disagree again. Shem and SD and DS and KD all have to hit their numbers and meet their expectations if we're going to win the rest of this season.

But among them all, the steadiest hand on that court, wild and crazy as well at times, but less so statistically, has been DS. Throw in KD for the past 6-8 games, and there are two whom we can pretty much count on to meet or exceed their averages. Meantime, why aren't you asking about the players who have not been hitting their numbders. Because there have been anywhere from 20-30 points or more not on the board because of that void, I estimate.

And the only way, imo, those numbers are going to go up, if they are going to go up, is to have the shooters shoot while the bigs get and keep their positions and we get back to team basketball on offense like we seem to do pretty well on defense when we set our minds to it.

You have some very good ideas, and I agree with them. There are others that I disagree with. I agree that David Stockton is a huge key to the success of the Zags. Overall this season he plays more than almost everyone accept for Kevin. What I may or not think about David, game to game, is alot less important than what Coach Few thinks, and I know Mark Few likes David alot, and trusts him. That's good enough for me. Why waste time and energy trying to present arguments why David should be getting more bench time. I also believe that David had a good game against Portland and had a lot to contribute to that victory. He showed the same thing against Santa Clara. However, I don't believe he has been as consistent as you do. And I agree that some of the others have not either, and that that can be a problem. However, so far, imo it has not been thanks to having some very good players on the bench.

David has certainly been a very good defensive player, and has done amazing things on the D end of the court. He really has a knack for stealing the ball. He and Kevin both do, and they are one reason for our success. However, at times they do not guard and defend the three point shot. I guess you are right in your analysis that sometimes Few must believe its more important to be disruptive on defense and get steals then it is to defend the three point shot. In the second half of our game against Portland Gonzaga was not getting the Pilots to turn the ball over as they did the first half. So our offense was kind of stalling. Our defense often is the fuel that ignites our offense. And Portland began to hit the three's. Portland's shooters are only average shooters if they are defended. However, if they are open and have space they are one of the better 3 point shooting teams in the country. So I would not minimize their ability to shoot the 3. And they were not just throwing up shots as you indicated. They were all good shots for THEM. And GU was not defending them the way they did the first half.

I appreciate your feedback and criticism of my attitude about David Stockton. And I can see your point and to some extent I have come to agree with you that I can let my focus of some of his shortcomings blind me to the reality that he is contributing a lot to the team. I am trying to focus on them more. He certainly has contributed to the success of the team this year, and afterall, the Zags are 21-3.

Some of our starters did not have a good game against Portland, and the beauty of this team is that we have a really good bench and they stepped up against Portland. Its nice to have all the talent we have on the bench. The one thing that has been apparent to me so far is that the Zags have that sense of confidence that they can win if they get back to playing Zag basketball. I think they all believe in each other and believe in the team. There are peaks and valleys both in games and in a season, that is a fact I think. And GU has held on at times and have worked their way out of some of the valleys that have challenged them as a team. As you said in another post, the Zags can win tomorrow if they play Zag basketball. I agree.

Go Zags.

gonzagafan62
02-07-2014, 06:36 AM
I agree I have no idea.

Portland will beat us in WCC and we will get them back in the Final Four.

bballbeachbum
02-07-2014, 06:57 AM
gamagin,

thanks for your reply but my goodness is it disappointing that your take from my post is that I'm trying to find ways to get David off the floor. I simply didn't say that, actually found a quote that supported your take on his D, and posted it! I said not having KD on the floor hurts the team...it does! especially on the boards seems to me. He's been the most consistent player on the team since his emergence imo and his absence in Portland seemed to reveal at least some of that reality.

on the D, we definitely disagree, and it was the reason the team sucked in the second half. I think most observers saw that too. Teams miss shots and stop scoring--that happens to the best teams!-- but the defensive effort can always be consistent. It wasn't. If you want to take that to mean I'm calling David out then OK, you're mistaken, and what I really think it has to do with is having Shem and Sam on the floor together, which I tried to hint at in my post; Sam has to defend the perimeter more in those spots and he is ill suited for it so the entire defense is exposed that much more. That doesn't mean that David isn't sometimes outmatched, he is, but so are all of the players at times.

so please, stop defending David when he is not being attacked! just seems silly to me. He was not being attacked by me and frankly, I've been one of his staunchest supporters from jump street, warts and all. Like I am with Gary warts and all, and KP warts and all, and Shem warts and all, etc.

The defensive rebounding was another issue in that game in the 2nd half, another reason KD might need to be on the floor more.


Meantime, why aren't you asking about the players who have not been hitting their numbders. seriously? I have! KP has turf toe, an injury you dismiss as inconsequential...I know it is not and wonder about all the wear and tear and heavy minutes he still gets like so many of the other astute posters on this board. We're all asking about it!
Gary has been, as Fox said on the broadcast, 'lights out' since his return up until that Portland game. I didn't use those words, he did! I did say above that it was not one of his best games...you want harsher adjectives or something to express that? Those who don't always shoot it the most make the key contributions...David does this all the time! and you see it no problem.

On scoring, I hope David can keep it up because it's clear other teams don't respect his ability to put the brown thing in the round thing so he will continue to see shots and opportunities other GU players won't. He makes those shots consistently and that will change

gamagin
02-07-2014, 07:24 AM
Bum/reborn

Thanks for your responses.

My use of "you" was an editorial you, not YOU, bbum. I was trying to avoid writing a "Rise & fall of the third reich," epic about the issues. I was trying to make some points about seeing the whole game and the the macro view of what is going on or what happened game to game & for the season. Re KP's toe. All I can do is watch the games. And all I can do is try and listen to what the coaches are emphasizing. Toe and all, hand and all our shooters have GOT to hunt & shoot or the plan won't work. Period. Fwiw, I think until that changes, that trumps all the negotiations for the 3rd 4th 5th etc., positions and who should be out there.

zaguarxj
02-07-2014, 09:41 AM
I've decided, based upon no factual information whatsoever, that KD only played 13 minutes because he was still feeling the effects off that nasty shot to the elbow he took when Shem hit him with his face. It's the only explanation that makes sense. I hope he's better for Memphis.

DADoZAG
02-07-2014, 10:10 AM
I've decided, based upon no factual information whatsoever, that KD only played 13 minutes because he was still feeling the effects off that nasty shot to the elbow he took when Shem hit him with his face. It's the only explanation that makes sense. I hope he's better for Memphis.

Very well played...

Go ZAGS!

gonzagafan62
02-07-2014, 10:13 AM
I had the flu, and passed out at halftime with a 17pt lead. Watched the replay last night, and glad I didn't stay up to watch the rest of that game. I am glad we won, gotta get ready for Memphis.

bballbeachbum
02-07-2014, 11:43 AM
Bum/reborn

Thanks for your responses.

My use of "you" was an editorial you, not YOU, bbum. I was trying to avoid writing a "Rise & fall of the third reich," epic about the issues. I was trying to make some points about seeing the whole game and the the macro view of what is going on or what happened game to game & for the season. Re KP's toe. All I can do is watch the games. And all I can do is try and listen to what the coaches are emphasizing. Toe and all, hand and all our shooters have GOT to hunt & shoot or the plan won't work. Period. Fwiw, I think until that changes, that trumps all the negotiations for the 3rd 4th 5th etc., positions and who should be out there.

Thank you (2nd person singular ;)), but I think I can tell the difference between the singular and the plural my friend! I mean that with all due respect; you make your points very black and white, often in epic fashion, and there is no breakdown in the communications in that regard gamagin. Come on, you are not misunderstood here, hopefully I enjoy the same :)

cjm720
02-07-2014, 12:02 PM
I've decided, based upon no factual information whatsoever, that KD only played 13 minutes because he was still feeling the effects off that nasty shot to the elbow he took when Shem hit him with his face. It's the only explanation that makes sense. I hope he's better for Memphis.

I think the real question is why did KP, Bell, Angel, David, DB, and Coleman play so many minutes.