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ZagsGoZags
02-04-2014, 01:46 PM
I often notice perimeter shooters, PK would be an excellent example before his toe problem, who will get a pass, consider going up, the defender is flying at them and sometimes will hit them while taking their shot, so instead they dribble to one side or the other to take the shot attempt, often a two pointer, but they get a clear shot at the bucket.

I know [1]sometimes the defender will crash into them if they attempt to shoot and [2]sometimes they will fall short of touching ball or player.

When, and only when it is the first case, where the shooter sees the defender will make contact, why not lean into it, attempt the shot, and get the foul called on the defender. This happens all the time closer to the basket and around the paint. Shooters lean in and get the foul called on the defender.

Advantages of drawing the foul are:
gives the opposing player and team another foul
three shots at the line, rather than possibility of making the two point shot
you get to control the play because the defender is in the air and has no options left, while the shooter can lean in, and up, to take the blow and get the foul called
statistically even good 3 pt shooters will miss more than half their tries, so it is good odds to be looking at two or three opportunities from the free throw line

what are the disadvantages?
getting an injury? ... that seems about like taking a charge .... it hurts but is worth it

Hoopaholic
02-04-2014, 01:59 PM
I often notice perimeter shooters, PK would be an excellent example before his toe problem, who will get a pass, consider going up, the defender is flying at them and sometimes will hit them while taking their shot, so instead they dribble to one side or the other to take the shot attempt, often a two pointer, but they get a clear shot at the bucket.

I know [1]sometimes the defender will crash into them if they attempt to shoot and [2]sometimes they will fall short of touching ball or player.

When, and only when it is the first case, where the shooter sees the defender will make contact, why not lean into it, attempt the shot, and get the foul called on the defender. This happens all the time closer to the basket and around the paint. Shooters lean in and get the foul called on the defender.

Advantages of drawing the foul are:
gives the opposing player and team another foul
three shots at the line, rather than possibility of making the two point shot
you get to control the play because the defender is in the air and has no options left, while the shooter can lean in, and up, to take the blow and get the foul called
statistically even good 3 pt shooters will miss more than half their tries, so it is good odds to be looking at two or three opportunities from the free throw line

what are the disadvantages?
getting an injury? ... that seems about like taking a charge .... it hurts but is worth it

repitition and practice then the mind kicks in during game time to what you practiced a thousand times

so much of basketball practice, intense improvement is spent either by oneself or with a single assistant (father, brother, coach, friend). Trying to consistently replicate the act of accepting contact while engaging in the shot is simply impossible to replicate consistently so what happens is the "practice and repitition" is generally the pump fake, lift and one or two dribble to clear so that becomes the "fallback" action in real life

VinnyZag
02-04-2014, 06:41 PM
I actually do see this happening more, mostly in the NBA but also in college. You're probably right about the advantages of it, but for some reason this play bothers me. You're shooting it with no chance of it going in, solely to draw a foul. It's ... Dishonest.

maynard g krebs
02-04-2014, 06:53 PM
You're shooting it with no chance of it going in, solely to draw a foul. It's ... Dishonest.

Disagree. The thing is, if the defender jumps vertically, as he should, the call won't be made if the ref sees it correctly. If the defender is running out at the shooter and jumps in the direction of the shooter, or is stationary but buys the upfake and jumps in the direction of the shooter, it's a smart basketball play to take advantage of the defensive player's overaggressive error by jumping forward and meeting him in the middle. The defender in this case is, after all, trying to gain an advantage in bothering/blocking the shot by jumping toward the shooter, so using his momentum to draw the foul is fair game imo.

I watch most Oregon games if they're not playing at the same time as the Zags, and Jason Calliste is a master of this. Draws the defender to jump toward him just about every game, then jumps forward, meeting him in the middle. It's a skill that takes cleverness and timing. And the shooter generally still tries to make the shot, even if it is a wild heave.

Oregonzagnut
02-04-2014, 07:12 PM
I actually do see this happening more, mostly in the NBA but also in college. You're probably right about the advantages of it, but for some reason this play bothers me. You're shooting it with no chance of it going in, solely to draw a foul. It's ... Dishonest.

Its just as dishonest as throwing the ball off the opponent to force him to get the turnover instead of you. Or is it painfully honest? Those are unique moments in time that only the quick thinking can use to exploit that fraction of a second reversal of fortune. They are called "heady plays".

Plus theres ALWAYS a chance it goes in. And it is why drawing a foul is actually considered not just a skill, but an art form. You have to set up the opponent by knowing his momentum and position but controlling yours.

Hoopaholic
02-04-2014, 07:20 PM
Disagree. The thing is, if the defender jumps vertically, as he should, the call won't be made if the ref sees it correctly. If the defender is running out at the shooter and jumps in the direction of the shooter, or is stationary but buys the upfake and jumps in the direction of the shooter, it's a smart basketball play to take advantage of the defensive player's overaggressive error by jumping forward and meeting him in the middle. The defender in this case is, after all, trying to gain an advantage in bothering/blocking the shot by jumping toward the shooter, so using his momentum to draw the foul is fair game imo.

I watch most Oregon games if they're not playing at the same time as the Zags, and Jason Calliste is a master of this. Draws the defender to jump toward him just about every game, then jumps forward, meeting him in the middle. It's a skill that takes cleverness and timing. And the shooter generally still tries to make the shot, even if it is a wild heave.

I agree in principle however the idea of verticality technically applies to both players so those who jump into a defenders space should be called for initiating the contact however we all know how stripes struggle to call verticality correctly

ZagsGoZags
02-04-2014, 07:21 PM
I actually do see this happening more, mostly in the NBA but also in college. You're probably right about the advantages of it, but for some reason this play bothers me. You're shooting it with no chance of it going in, solely to draw a foul. It's ... Dishonest.

Vinny, what are your thoughts on our players driving in toward the paint, who lean in on the defender (still trying to put the ball up of course) but know darn well the 'lean in' will probably get the foul called. It teaches the defenders to make room for the driving player to some extent.
'
Do you think defenders of the 3 pt shot can be 'taught' to not hurl themselves at our perimeter shooters? I swear sometimes if the shooter didn't adjust the defender would land on him.

maynard g krebs
02-04-2014, 07:44 PM
I agree in principle however the idea of verticality technically applies to both players so those who jump into a defenders space should be called for initiating the contact however we all know how stripes struggle to call verticality correctly

So if the defender jumps forward in the direction of the of the offensive player, who then jumps forward and slightly to one side to get the shot off, and they collide in the middle, what is the correct call? I always assumed that's a "tie goes to the runner" type situation, with the runner in this case being the guy with the ball in his hands. Don't know how the rule reads on that, but that's how it's invariably called.

Just based on what I've seen over the years, it seems like the onus for meeting the principal of verticality is on the defender, as going toward the basket is the norm for the offense.

Hoopaholic
02-04-2014, 08:00 PM
So if the defender jumps forward in the direction of the of the offensive player, who then jumps forward and slightly to one side to get the shot off, and they collide in the middle, what is the correct call? I always assumed that's a "tie goes to the runner" type situation, with the runner in this case being the guy with the ball in his hands. Don't know how the rule reads on that, but that's how it's invariably called.

Just based on what I've seen over the years, it seems like the onus for meeting the principal of verticality is on the defender, as going toward the basket is the norm for the offense.


Yep tie to runner if both violating their owned space

Yes stripes generally put the onus on the defender but that is not how the rule is written. ...

Hoopaholic
02-04-2014, 08:03 PM
This is also the unintended consequence enforcement of the elbow rule as well......natural defensive position is bent at knees and stick nose at chest level, guess what that puts your defenders face right at the elbow level of a natural offensive players position so we are now encouraging defenders to stick their chin in the offensive players natural range of motion area for any explosive move

VinnyZag
02-04-2014, 08:20 PM
I'm only half serious here. And I'm probably not thinking of exactly the same thing you guys are.

The guy I think of who does this a lot is Dwayne Wade. As Hoopaholic says, Wade actually initiate contact. He jumps into guys and usually gets a foul called on the defender.

To me, it's the offensive version of flopping. I roll my eyes every time I see it. They make it hard enough on the defense already without allowing offensive players to initiate contact and entice a foul.

kitzbuel
02-04-2014, 08:23 PM
I often notice perimeter shooters, PK would be an excellent example before his toe problem, who will get a pass, consider going up, the defender is flying at them and sometimes will hit them while taking their shot, so instead they dribble to one side or the other to take the shot attempt, often a two pointer, but they get a clear shot at the bucket.

I know [1]sometimes the defender will crash into them if they attempt to shoot and [2]sometimes they will fall short of touching ball or player.

When, and only when it is the first case, where the shooter sees the defender will make contact, why not lean into it, attempt the shot, and get the foul called on the defender. This happens all the time closer to the basket and around the paint. Shooters lean in and get the foul called on the defender.

Advantages of drawing the foul are:
gives the opposing player and team another foul
three shots at the line, rather than possibility of making the two point shot
you get to control the play because the defender is in the air and has no options left, while the shooter can lean in, and up, to take the blow and get the foul called
statistically even good 3 pt shooters will miss more than half their tries, so it is good odds to be looking at two or three opportunities from the free throw line

what are the disadvantages?
getting an injury? ... that seems about like taking a charge .... it hurts but is worth it

One very clear disadvantage is that if the defender times his jump right and is athletic, you are have to shoot over the defender, a poor shot, and have a good chance of getting blocked.

The Zags have actually been pretty good at doing just this. USF and SCU shooters had very poor looks due to Zags being right in their face as they shot.

ZAGLAWQB
02-05-2014, 12:20 PM
1) Players practice "moves" to get open shots , pump fake waiting to get fouled is not an "instantaneous in rhythm" move...drawing the foul is minutely slower "awareness" move;
2) If you have been hit by a fly out defender you know your knees are at risk for injury because your balance changes if you are in the air; and,
3) An individuals eyes move and take in peripheral motion involuntarily...sending a message to your brain to avoid the "flyer";
4) "In traffic" drawing a foul is part of repeated practice in traffic and the high percentage of contact created in that move.

BTB
02-05-2014, 05:24 PM
If a defender closes out and jumps correctly they jump off to the side of the offensive player, so the offensive player has to jump sideways into the player to get contact. Not sure of the NCAA official rule, but in the NBA the officials don't call it if there is any sideways motion from the offensive player. Of course, this is always open to interpretation from the ref.