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Zagsker
01-16-2014, 09:22 PM
Hard to understand why those two only get limited mop up time in the 2nd half?

Hope a reporter asks Few about this

Luckily for us they are highly unlikely to transfer

willandi
01-16-2014, 09:24 PM
I thought they both played in the first half, AN made a few bone head plays, GC seemed to do OK but it also seemed to be a game that the Zags wanted to be methodical, not helter-skelter.

ZagaZags
01-16-2014, 09:25 PM
Hard to understand why those two only get limited mop up time in the 2nd half?

Hope a reporter asks Few about this

That's how you open up scholarships for 2014.

Oregonzagnut
01-16-2014, 09:25 PM
If the reporters are anything like some members here, they will not question Few on anything.

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 09:26 PM
Hard to understand why those two only get limited mop up time in the 2nd half?

Hope a reporter asks Few about this

Luckily for us they are highly unlikely to transfer


Reporter? U mean the Pulitzers that cover the team? Unless there's a good reason, Fews treatment of them was self defeating.

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 09:27 PM
I thought they both played in the first half, AN made a few bone head plays, GC seemed to do OK but it also seemed to be a game that the Zags wanted to be methodical, not helter-skelter.

With a 30 point lead? DS played no better, btw.

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 09:28 PM
That's how you open up scholarships for 2014.

I assume you're kidding?

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 09:29 PM
I thought they both played in the first half, AN made a few bone head plays, GC seemed to do OK but it also seemed to be a game that the Zags wanted to be methodical, not helter-skelter.

Yes, they plated like crap but so he was punishing them? With a 30 pt lead. He will need GC vs LMU or Ireland will drop 40 on Stocks.

Oregonzagnut
01-16-2014, 09:30 PM
With a 30 point lead? DS played no better, btw.

DS does pay Fews game though. Few will take that instead of AN and GCs mistakes regardless of energy, athleticism and size.

We did not need it this game due to Few deciding to let the defense run rather than sit in the zone all game. I hope Few sees the benefit of an active and pressing defense.

BULLDOG#1
01-16-2014, 09:31 PM
Few is going to keep them both on a short leash. They are both dumb foul and turnover prone. The upside is unquestionable, but the foolish plays will have to stop if they expect to get more minutes. KD and DB are way more consistent - and though they don't have the same upside, they have far less downside with immediate minutes.

Dranginis and Barham are both playing great, btw.

Baseline
01-16-2014, 09:32 PM
I sure don't understand Few's use of the bench and probably never will. Then again his success speaks for itself.

ZagaZags
01-16-2014, 09:32 PM
I assume you're kidding?

Sure I'm kidding. Keep it up and you will see it could happen.

Oregonzagnut
01-16-2014, 09:32 PM
Few is going to keep them both on a short leash. They are both dumb foul and turnover prone. The upside is unquestionable, but the foolish plays will have to stop if they expect to get more minutes. KD and DB are way more consistent - and though they don't have the same upside, they have far less downside with immediate minutes.

Dranginis and Barham are both playing great, btw.

IMO, the whole issue isn't about KD or DB, it is about DS.

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 09:34 PM
Few is going to keep them both on a short leash. They are both dumb foul and turnover prone. The upside is unquestionable, but the foolish plays will have to stop if they expect to get more minutes. KD and DB are way more consistent - and though they don't have the same upside, they have far less downside with immediate minutes.

Dranginis and Barham are both playing great, btw.

Can't disagree w your assessment. But when and if the Zags play a good team in the NCAA they will need athleticism abc Fews failure to invest in building those players ends up one and done.

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 09:35 PM
I sure don't understand Few's use of the bench and probably never will. Then again his success speaks for itself.

It sure does.

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 09:36 PM
IMO, the whole issue isn't about KD or DB, it is about DS.

That's so obviously true it's not worth pointing out, but thx.

ZagaZags
01-16-2014, 09:36 PM
I assume you're kidding?

Just a quick question. Why do you think Gonzaga has had so many transfers the last 4-6 years? I would love to hear your take.

siliconzag
01-16-2014, 09:37 PM
I agree with the sentiment that he could have allowed some of the supporting cast to play at least the last 6 minutes. The game was already well in hand. On an unrelated note, I saw team defense played at a level I have never seen from a Gonzaga team. Either Pep was really bad or our defense made them look bad. This was a very positive game for the Zags. Reports of their demise are vastly exaggerated! KP was playing at about 75% in my estimation. KD is playing well, but needs to drive to the hole a little more often. If nothing else he will get free throws. He has a pretty quick first step to the hoop. Nice game by the home boys, and the coaching was good too, just wish we had played some of the bench earlier.

Sili

MDABE80
01-16-2014, 09:37 PM
I agree. If there's any hope to end the season on a high note, he'll need more. Failure to develop the potential..........unless it's disciplinary ( which it was or they'd not played at all) with those two is plain stupid. PLUS their attitudes will suffer. Bothhave two years left. Few's quite provincial but it's to his detriment.
I agree with Zaga . These two are thoroughbreds.........we don't see many. They're the type of talent that needs to expand.

23dpg
01-16-2014, 09:37 PM
I'm an unabashed Few supporter but this one's got me shaking my head. He's in danger of losing them (mentally) if there's no other reason for keeping them on the bench with a 20+ lead throughout the second half.
I've been that 8th man on a team and this would be a game you would expect more playing time, not less.

23dpg
01-16-2014, 09:39 PM
Just a quick question. Why do you think Gonzaga has had so many transfers the last 4-6 years? I would love to hear your take.

Because they are a major D1 program. Gonzaga's transfers are not the exception, they are the rule of the land in today's game.

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 09:40 PM
Just a quick question. Why do you think Gonzaga has had so many transfers the last 4-6 years? I would love to hear your take.

Combination of execrable, panicked recruiting and unwillingness to invest in shaping talent for the most part.

ZagaZags
01-16-2014, 09:43 PM
Combination of execrable, panicked recruiting and unwillingness to invest in shaping talent for the most part.

And lack of playing time.

Oregonzagnut
01-16-2014, 09:46 PM
Just a quick question. Why do you think Gonzaga has had so many transfers the last 4-6 years? I would love to hear your take.

It is Fews system. Skill and athleticism is secondary to running his system. Imagine if his system incorporated athleticism and more defensive focus?

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 09:48 PM
And lack of playing time.

ZZ, I'm as big a critic of Few as anyone but good players like Gibbs, Arop and Spangs left for a host of reasons, personal and otherwise. But some others just were not top 25 material. One is still on the team.

Oregonzagnut
01-16-2014, 09:50 PM
I'm an unabashed Few supporter but this one's got me shaking my head. He's in danger of losing them (mentally) if there's no other reason for keeping them on the bench with a 20+ lead throughout the second half.
I've been that 8th man on a team and this would be a game you would expect more playing time, not less.

Both Edi and Carter lost all confidence and desire IMO. Especially as seniors when they languished on the bench to finish their careers. At least Nunez has 2 full years left after this season. GC will have to get smart with his PT or else lose it like other transfers have in the past.

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 09:50 PM
It is Fews system. Skill and athleticism is secondary to running his system. Imagine if his system incorporated athleticism and more defensive focus?

You mean like Syracuse and Michigan State and......Fews system, as it were, is so 1995.

ZagaZags
01-16-2014, 09:51 PM
ZZ, I'm as big a critic of Few as anyone but good players like Gibbs, Arop and Spangs left for a host of reasons, personal and otherwise. But some others just were not top 25 material. One is still on the team.

Yeah those guys sucked! Not a chance they could do any good at GU.










NOT

Zagceo
01-16-2014, 09:52 PM
If they don't get more playing time soon they will shut down mentally!

I get the feeling they live on an island within the team already.

Who cares if they foul out or turn the ball over let them play before you break them mentally !

Oregonzagnut
01-16-2014, 09:53 PM
You mean like Syracuse and Michigan State and......Fews system, as it were, is so 1995.

I do have faith he is learning and changing so slowly that it seems non-existant. But he has to be learning and changing according to the skill sets his recruits and transfers bring. Am I way off here?

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 09:53 PM
Both Edi and Carter lost all confidence and desire IMO. Especially as seniors when they languished on the bench to finish their careers. At least Nunez has 2 full years left after this season. GC will have to get smart with his PT or else lose it like other transfers have in the past.

Edi and Carter got plenty of run, IMO. They just stunk it up and were pulled as seniors. Don't blame Few for that, just for recruiting them in first place.

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 09:54 PM
Yeah those guys sucked! Not a chance they could do any good at GU.










NOT

Missed my point ZZ. They are good players who weren't willing to wait. They had four years. These guys have 2 and 3.

ZagaZags
01-16-2014, 09:56 PM
Edi and Carter got plenty of run, IMO. They just stunk it up and were pulled as seniors. Don't blame Few for that, just for recruiting them in first place.

I was pointing out transfers not seniors.

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 09:57 PM
I do have faith he is learning and changing so slowly that it seems non-existant. But he has to be learning and changing according to the skill sets his recruits and transfers bring. Am I way off here?

No measurement exists to indicate how far off u are.

ZagaZags
01-16-2014, 09:58 PM
Missed my point ZZ. They are good players who weren't willing to wait. They had four years. These guys have 2 and 3.

You missed my point, GU was up 20 with 6 min to go. WTF would you not put them in? Sounds like the Few Dog House Club. These Dogs are getting euthanized. Foul trouble didn't help for Nunez.

Reborn
01-16-2014, 09:59 PM
I know Few had his reasons. My guess would be to get the guys he considers his main players playing together more. Dower, Stockton and PK have been sick and I think Few needs getting them back in shape and rebuild the chemistry. I think he may have also wanted a very convincing victory and he got that. I think Few and staff are working more on defense then offense right now, and Im sure those guys in their playing were working very hard on defensive alignments. My guess is they are doing some new things we don't recognize, and need time on the court to practice those things. I didn't see the zone tonight at all, and imo that is a great sign. We did it with our man to man D, and whatever you call it but it looks very different. Sili is right. It was definitely an extraordinary defensive game plan and effort by the players. I felt they went all out 100% effort all night. When the Zags do that, we can all see they are a good team.

I really feel that if people who blog here are still expecting Few to make changes with Coleman and Nunez, you don't understand him. I have finally surrendered. He is who he is, and like Sili said the other day, he's the guy we have. Coleman and Nunez both played very good first halves, and really, imo, really contributed alot, and got the Zags going. Coleman especially because he really attacks the basket and has a great offensive game. Nunez was just so so. Few actually put him in before Barham tonight and imo Nunez was not all that affective. He did hit two free throws, but like some, I felt he was forcing some on offense, and NOT playing good D, and getting into foul trouble very fast. Few brought in Barham and he is the one, along with Pangos that lit the fire tonight. Their 3 or 4 three pointers in a row blew the door wide open.

In the second half Few didn't either one of them because I think Few wanted a controlled second half, running the offense to perfection, and moving the ball. Pepperdine was also pressing and Few wanted to work on a good press breaker, which the Zags executed to perfection, imo. Few needed ball handlers, and good passers who would run the offense. He didn't need one one players IN THIS GAME IN THE SECOND HALF. I sincerely hope that both of those guys stay positive because they have definitely been a part of the story this year coming off the bench and giving some great minutes two a team who needed them. They will also be needed again and again in some way. They must stay ready and focused and not get on a pity ###. That's my opinion. Keep it positive. It was a great victory. As I said earlier, Pepperdine is pretty good. They beat BYU at home and I hope they beat St Mary's at home as well.

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 10:00 PM
You missed my point, GU was up 20 with 6 min to go. WTF would you not put them in? Sounds like the Few Dog House.

I think we have come full circle. Of course I agree with you.

ZagaZags
01-16-2014, 10:05 PM
I think we have come full circle. Of course I agree with you.

About time you come to your senses. There is hope for you. Cheers.

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 10:07 PM
About time you come to your senses. There is hope for you. Cheers.

More important than all this nonsense, how's your son?

Zags11
01-16-2014, 10:15 PM
Gonna lose them. Nunez looked butt hurt at 1 shot on sideline.

gonwick
01-16-2014, 10:20 PM
I'm glad to see this thread because I spent the entire blowout second half wondering wtf few was thinking. How is a player suppposed to develop if they don't even get on the floor in a blowout? Let them play, let them make mistakes and learn from them in a safe setting so they can contribute in more crucial minutes later. This is classic few. Those guys won't get any minutes, gu will run into an athletic team in the tournament that stifles our silly three guard lineup, and few will have nowhere to turn because no one else has gotten real time. Plus,it hurts their development for next year. Watching few coach makes me want to beat my head against a wall sometimes.

ZagHouse
01-16-2014, 10:21 PM
We have another game on Saturday and after the poor performance last week, I assume Few wanted to give some players a little more time to work on a few things. Considering he said his main focus after Thursdays game was to get his guys some rest, I'm sure he was trying to establish a rhythm with some of the players. Coleman and Nunez will continue to see time. I think there were more pressing issues tonight.

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 10:24 PM
I'm glad to see this thread because I spent the entire blowout second half wondering wtf few was thinking. How is a player suppposed to develop if they don't even get on the floor in a blowout? Let them play, let them make mistakes and learn from them in a safe setting so they can contribute in more crucial minutes later. This is classic few. Those guys won't get any minutes, gu will run into an athletic team in the tournament that stifles our silly three guard lineup, and few will have nowhere to turn because no one else has gotten real time. Plus,it hurts their development for next year. Watching few coach makes me want to beat my head against a wall sometimes.

About as perfect a post as I've read.

Mantua
01-16-2014, 10:25 PM
Hard to understand why those two only get limited mop up time in the 2nd half?

Hope a reporter asks Few about this

Luckily for us they are highly unlikely to transfer

Unlucky for us that they are not playing.

It's clear to me that for some kids Few is not the best coach.

ZagaZags
01-16-2014, 10:29 PM
More important than all this nonsense, how's your son?

I took him out today to run some of his errands today. He is getting around on crutches. He has a long way to go. TBO I don't care about that. I am just so happy he is alive. Thanks again for ALL the prayers. This will be a great year.

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 10:29 PM
Gonna lose them. Nunez looked butt hurt at 1 shot on sideline.

I'm guessing Coleman and Nunez are tough minded kids who will endure such small minded thinking. But not forever.

jazzdelmar
01-16-2014, 10:30 PM
I took him out today to run some of his errands today. He is getting around on crutches. He has a long way to go. TBO I don't care about that. I am just so happy he is alive. Thanks again for ALL the prayers. This will be a great year.

God bless, Zeezer

Larryzag
01-16-2014, 10:37 PM
I'm glad to see this thread because I spent the entire blowout second half wondering wtf few was thinking. How is a player suppposed to develop if they don't even get on the floor in a blowout? Let them play, let them make mistakes and learn from them in a safe setting so they can contribute in more crucial minutes later. This is classic few. Those guys won't get any minutes, gu will run into an athletic team in the tournament that stifles our silly three guard lineup, and few will have nowhere to turn because no one else has gotten real time. Plus,it hurts their development for next year. Watching few coach makes me want to beat my head against a wall sometimes.

This. One and done is getting old. Also watching Coleman trying to save the game at the end of a loss is sad when he could have been put in earlier.

BTB
01-16-2014, 10:40 PM
The top teams in college hoops rarely go more than 8 deep. Play the 8 players that help the team most (note that I didn't say the 8 most individually talented players). The more the top 8 players play together the more chemistry they have. This is the winning formula that the majority of successful D1 programs use. I can't think of many ultra successful programs that play more than 8 guy more than 15ish minutes per game.

Vanzagger
01-16-2014, 10:41 PM
Let's build this thing for the Maddness!

ZionZag
01-16-2014, 10:41 PM
Perfect analysis...................



I agree with the sentiment that he could have allowed some of the supporting cast to play at least the last 6 minutes. The game was already well in hand. On an unrelated note, I saw team defense played at a level I have never seen from a Gonzaga team. Either Pep was really bad or our defense made them look bad. This was a very positive game for the Zags. Reports of their demise are vastly exaggerated! KP was playing at about 75% in my estimation. KD is playing well, but needs to drive to the hole a little more often. If nothing else he will get free throws. He has a pretty quick first step to the hoop. Nice game by the home boys, and the coaching was good too, just wish we had played some of the bench earlier.

Sili

Zagceo
01-16-2014, 10:44 PM
The top teams in college hoops rarely go more than 8 deep. Play the 8 players that help the team most (note that I didn't say the 8 most individually talented players). The more the top 8 players play together the more chemistry they have. This is the winning formula that the majority of successful D1 programs use. I can't think of many ultra successful programs that play more than 8 guy more than 15ish minutes per game.

How's that working for Mr Few in the NCAA tourney?

How about changing something up with the best athletes playing this year!

ZagaZags
01-16-2014, 10:53 PM
How's that working for Mr Few in the NCAA tourney?

How about changing something up with the best athletes playing this year!

Hope he works them in. Bell will be back soon.

BTB
01-16-2014, 10:58 PM
How's that working for Mr Few in the NCAA tourney?

How about changing something up with the best athletes playing this year!

Well, it worked well for Louisville last year (8 players played more than 15 mins per game). It worked well for Kentucky 2 years ago (6 players played more than 15 mins per game). It worked well for UConn 3 years ago (7 players played more than 15 mins per game). It worked well for Duke 4 years ago (6 players played more than 15 mins per game). Do I need to keep going? It is 100% fact that in college basketball the most successful teams play with short benches. Why should Few try to reinvent the wheel? I understand we want these two to improve, but the fact is that you get better in practice not in the game. Sure, you need some court time to improve but practice is much more vital for improvement than game time.

ZagaZags
01-16-2014, 11:00 PM
Well, it worked well for Louisville last year (8 players played more than 15 mins per game). It worked well for Kentucky 2 years ago (6 players played more than 15 mins per game). It worked well for UConn 3 years ago (7 players played more than 15 mins per game). It worked well for Duke 4 years ago (6 players played more than 15 mins per game). Do I need to keep going? It is 100% fact that in college basketball the most successful teams play with short benches. Why should Few try to reinvent the wheel? I understand we want these two to improve, but the fact is that you get better in practice not in the game. Sure, you need some court time to improve but practice is much more vital for improvement than game time.

We are good then. I feel better now.

Zagceo
01-16-2014, 11:09 PM
Well, it worked well for Louisville last year (8 players played more than 15 mins per game). It worked well for Kentucky 2 years ago (6 players played more than 15 mins per game). It worked well for UConn 3 years ago (7 players played more than 15 mins per game). It worked well for Duke 4 years ago (6 players played more than 15 mins per game). Do I need to keep going? It is 100% fact that in college basketball the most successful teams play with short benches. Why should Few try to reinvent the wheel? I understand we want these two to improve, but the fact is that you get better in practice not in the game. Sure, you need some court time to improve but practice is much more vital for improvement than game time.

So you think the zags have same caliber athletes 1-8 that Louisville duke Kentucky have?

Funny that I would like more playing time for a former player from Louisville !

Ezag
01-16-2014, 11:34 PM
I'll beat the dead horse too....yes why not play GC and AN more with a blowout in hand. This is happened more than once this season. As for this game, rest the guys who just came off the flu, have turf toe and played most the game....limit further injuries, keep the bench lubed and happy and develop someone outside the top 5

ZagaZags
01-17-2014, 12:13 AM
We are good then. I feel better now.

Just in case you missed it, I was being sarcastic.

bigblahla
01-17-2014, 05:42 AM
Few is going to keep them both on a short leash. They are both dumb foul and turnover prone. The upside is unquestionable, but the foolish plays will have to stop if they expect to get more minutes. KD and DB are way more consistent - and though they don't have the same upside, they have far less downside with immediate minutes.

Dranginis and Barham are both playing great, btw.

Ok Zaggies those that think Coleman and Nunez are getting a raw deal should read this over and over until you get it. Learn the system in practice, perform in games and PT will come if not you ride pine. Simple yet so many here after all these years still don't understand what it takes to get PT at Gonzaga.

Go!! Zags!!!

Zagsker
01-17-2014, 05:47 AM
There was a shot of Coleman around the 11-13 minute mark where you could see in his face he knew he was not getting in anytime soon

At the end of the day you have two extremely athletic guys that need the opportunity to find rhythm/get bball mojo going without the fear if getting pulled for one single mistake...20 point leads with 10 or so minutes to go provide you that...fail in Few's part imo...I don't buy the "he wants to create chemistry with specific guys" argument/etc, these guys have been playing together all year...I gotta feel that those two were highly disappointed and maybe even slightly pissed when they were put in around the same time as the "cheer my arse off if they make a free throw" players

GoZags
01-17-2014, 05:52 AM
You guys realize that the GU lead went from 26 to 17 during the last 3 minutes of this comfortable, blowout win ... right?

Simple extrapolation shows that if Few had played the bench for the last 6 minutes (vs the last 3) there was a chance of that 26 point lead ending up an 8 point victory. Not sure anyone reading this board would have enjoyed that very much.

But it would have provided an even better reason for "bashing" ... or "questioning". At least that's my opinion.

Zagger
01-17-2014, 06:13 AM
I see both GC and AN improving - especially GC and I expect AN to catch up within a month or so. As both continue to 'get-with-the-program' so-to-speak they're going to be awesome additions to the Zag team. Look at how GC has played since he was first on the floor. Also look how AN has played since Kraz-In-Kennel. Both are improving and becoming better team members as well as keeping their own assets/BBskills intact. If this team can mesh further they're going to be a real threat in the NCAAs (not to mention that this game against Pep shows that they're going to be a BIG threat to the rest of the WCC). With Gary back in before too long and improvement all around on team play .... I see the Zags not losing another WCC game.

jazzdelmar
01-17-2014, 06:43 AM
You guys realize that the GU lead went from 26 to 17 during the last 3 minutes of this comfortable, blowout win ... right?

Simple extrapolation shows that if Few had played the bench for the last 6 minutes (vs the last 3) there was a chance of that 26 point lead ending up an 8 point victory. Not sure anyone reading this board would have enjoyed that very much.

But it would have provided an even better reason for "bashing" ... or "questioning". At least that's my opinion.


GZ, why so negative? Given the relative level of talent that was sitting, vis a vis some of the players who are ordained to play EFS, there is every reason to believe the lead would have ballooned to 35 or 40? No one is talking about putting walk ons in, and you can reasonably conclude that AN and GC and Edwards (let's not forget him) wd have seized the opportunity to shine. If Few trusts them so little then they should never play, and thats my opinion.

LongIslandZagFan
01-17-2014, 06:47 AM
You mean like Syracuse and Michigan State and......Fews system, as it were, is so 1995.


Fire him!! And have him take David with him!!!

GUinSTL
01-17-2014, 06:49 AM
This place is an enigma wrapped in a mystery. Step back a little. Remember all the constant hand-wringing about how the Zags can't finish a game? How they lack the ability to keep the throttle down, or step on throats? Pick your metaphor. Lots of them were thrown around over the years.
Here we are on the road after a craptastic loss to a team that should never beat us (no offense Portland). Time to make a statement. Time to blow the doors off a Pepperdine team who didn't see it coming. NOT the opportunity to see how many times GC can turn the ball over in 3 minutes. While I'm in the camp that truly wants to see GC and AN to be successful (they can be explosive!), I would have thought the board would breath a collective sigh of relief with the realization that Few actually wanted to relentlessly break the opponent. No mercy. I, for one, enjoy watching my beloved Bulldogs abuse the WCC more than I like watching AN travel.

Back to lurking.
~B

LongIslandZagFan
01-17-2014, 06:50 AM
But it would have provided an even better reason for "bashing" ... or "questioning". At least that's my opinion.


20 point wins bring bashing anyhow.

jazzdelmar
01-17-2014, 07:02 AM
Fire him!! And have him take David with him!!!

Soon enough, but half a loaf.

aflac4life
01-17-2014, 07:17 AM
This place is an enigma wrapped in a mystery. Step back a little. Remember all the constant hand-wringing about how the Zags can't finish a game? How they lack the ability to keep the throttle down, or step on throats? Pick your metaphor. Lots of them were thrown around over the years.
Here we are on the road after a craptastic loss to a team that should never beat us (no offense Portland). Time to make a statement. Time to blow the doors off a Pepperdine team who didn't see it coming. NOT the opportunity to see how many times GC can turn the ball over in 3 minutes. While I'm in the camp that truly wants to see GC and AN to be successful (they can be explosive!), I would have thought the board would breath a collective sigh of relief with the realization that Few actually wanted to relentlessly break the opponent. No mercy. I, for one, enjoy watching my beloved Bulldogs abuse the WCC more than I like watching AN travel.

Back to lurking.
~B

Nailed it! My quess is the behind the backboard, backhanded out of control scoop shot didn't help their 2nd half minutes. It had energy and athleticism though! The look on Few's face was priceless.

Zagsker
01-17-2014, 07:35 AM
You are up 20+ points and two guys that obviously have a bigger role on the team then walk-ons do not get minutes til the very very end? That is garbage...I am happy with how the game turned out but you can always find things that can be improved, even in victory, getting guys who have generally played meaningful minutes this season and are both coming off years in which they did not play some extra PT would be an area of improvement

jazzdelmar
01-17-2014, 07:49 AM
You are up 20+ points and two guys that obviously have a bigger role on the team then walk-ons do not get minutes til the very very end? That is garbage...I am happy with how the game turned out but you can always find things that can be improved, even in victory, getting guys who have generally played meaningful minutes this season and are both coming off years in which they did not play some extra PT would be an area of improvement

You're wasting your breath Z-sker.......

LongIslandZagFan
01-17-2014, 08:17 AM
Fire Few!!!!

jazzdelmar
01-17-2014, 08:18 AM
Fire Few!!!!

You need some new material, LIZF. I know, so do I....:)

vandalzag
01-17-2014, 08:22 AM
GZ, why so negative? Given the relative level of talent that was sitting, vis a vis some of the players who are ordained to play EFS, there is every reason to believe the lead would have ballooned to 35 or 40? No one is talking about putting walk ons in, and you can reasonably conclude that AN and GC and Edwards (let's not forget him) wd have seized the opportunity to shine. If Few trusts them so little then they should never play, and thats my opinion.

But if he had played GC and AN then you would have had to come up with something else to ##### and moan about. Instead just keep posting the same thing over and over again to prove how smart you are, because the smartest guy in the room is the one who keeps saying the same crap over and over again, all while having zero knowledge of the situation. Oh I forgot you can read peoples minds, as well as there body language while watching the television. Nunez had 3 fouls in 8 minutes. You would think that somebody as clever as yourself would see that he will not see much time if he continues to make bonehead fouls.
However I agree on Coleman, who on face value should have played more, but his minutes should have come from a combo of KD,KP, and DS. But who knows what happened on the bench or in the locker room at half, or practice for the matter.Maybe just maybe the coaches have told him to do X and he is doing Y instead. But to just say DS is playing too much and GU will suffer in March because of it, is at best simplistic. In last nights game please point out when the player the DS was directly guarding scored. DS played the minutes last night because he was playing very good defense and the offense was clicking and when he was on the floor. When he has not played well (Portland, etc...) his minutes are reduced.
Maybe at the end of the day it is a problem with the players not buying into the system. If it is a matter of the player not doing the things he is supposed to do (kind of like Arop) then what is a coach to do? Should he change the offense to fit one player or should he go with the 8 other players that are fitting into the system. Coleman is not a franchise player capable of carrying this team. Right now he is a one trick pony (dribble drive with the left hand only) that will have pockets of success, but is not conducive to consistent success within this system. The offense that GU is running does not work if you have 4 guys standing around watching a guy drive to the basket (his shot rate last night 4 in 7 minutes when expanded to 30 minutes would have been 16+ attempts...so Pangos gives up shots, Dower, etc...).

LongIslandZagFan
01-17-2014, 08:23 AM
You need some new material, LIZF. I know, so do I....:)

Really? This thread borders on moronic. They won the game... BIG. People are on here #####ing because their favorite player didn't get the minutes they thought they deserved. Few is questioned... for winning. I could almost accept it if maybe it was a loss or a win that was closer than it should have been. a nearly 20 point win?

This is just dumb. Honestly folks... if THIS gets your panties in such a bunch... stop #####ing here, start a website to get rid of the guy.

jazzdelmar
01-17-2014, 08:31 AM
But if he had played GC and AN then you would have had to come up with something else to ##### and moan about. Instead just keep posting the same thing over and over again to prove how smart you are, because the smartest guy in the room is the one who keeps saying the same crap over and over again, all while having zero knowledge of the situation. Oh I forgot you can read peoples minds, as well as there body language while watching the television. Nunez had 3 fouls in 8 minutes. You would think that somebody as clever as yourself would see that he will not see much time if he continues to make bonehead fouls.
However I agree on Coleman, who on face value should have played more, but his minutes should have come from a combo of KD,KP, and DS. But who knows what happened on the bench or in the locker room at half, or practice for the matter.Maybe just maybe the coaches have told him to do X and he is doing Y instead. But to just say DS is playing too much and GU will suffer in March because of it, is at best simplistic. In last nights game please point out when the player the DS was directly guarding scored. DS played the minutes last night because he was playing very good defense and the offense was clicking and when he was on the floor. When he has not played well (Portland, etc...) his minutes are reduced.
Maybe at the end of the day it is a problem with the players not buying into the system. If it is a matter of the player not doing the things he is supposed to do (kind of like Arop) then what is a coach to do? Should he change the offense to fit one player or should he go with the 8 other players that are fitting into the system. Coleman is not a franchise player capable of carrying this team. Right now he is a one trick pony (dribble drive with the left hand only) that will have pockets of success, but is not conducive to consistent success within this system. The offense that GU is running does not work if you have 4 guys standing around watching a guy drive to the basket (his shot rate last night 4 in 7 minutes when expanded to 30 minutes would have been 16+ attempts...so Pangos gives up shots, Dower, etc...).


I agree with most of this. Nunez stunk it up last night and Coleman only showed glimpses. The starters played well. Dower in particular and KP in the 2d half. My point is that IF AN and GC are the keys to a post season run then they should be getting more meaningful minutes to see if that hope is practical. I am not sold on either yet myself. I would actually prefer Edwards get more time among all the non starters. Last night's game to me was a perfect crucible in which to test the bench keys.

willandi
01-17-2014, 08:34 AM
And if you are attempting to install the need and desire to play a controlled game, how does putting in the 2 players, no matter how freakishly athletic, that are least likely to adhere to that program, benefit the TEAM?
Nice win...I was hoping you had got up on the right side of the bed this morning Jazz!

BTB
01-17-2014, 08:38 AM
Really? This thread borders on moronic. They won the game... BIG. People are on here #####ing because their favorite player didn't get the minutes they thought they deserved. Few is questioned... for winning. I could almost accept it if maybe it was a loss or a win that was closer than it should have been. a nearly 20 point win?

This is just dumb. Honestly folks... if THIS gets your panties in such a bunch... stop #####ing here, start a website to get rid of the guy.

It sounds a bit like parents complaining to a high school coach that their son should get more playing time or should be on varsity instead of JV.

jazzdelmar
01-17-2014, 08:40 AM
And if you are attempting to install the need and desire to play a controlled game, how does putting in the 2 players, no matter how freakishly athletic, that are least likely to adhere to that program, benefit the TEAM?
Nice win...I was hoping you had got up on the right side of the bed this morning Jazz!

Good point. It's clear A and G play their own style. Maybe they are unredeemable, who knows? That's the challenge and again, given last nights flow, it would have been a fortuitous time to test their ability and or willingness to get w the program. Right now they aren't even half way there, IMO. More Edwards, though.

zagfan24
01-17-2014, 08:42 AM
Seems that many here forget about that little thing Allen Iverson referred to as "practice."

Coach Few and co. see a lot more of these guys than we do. The mistakes we see in games may seem like the first instance of something to us, but for the coaching staff it may be a mistake they have tried to correct repeatedly with no success. Not criticizing Coleman, Nunez, or anybody...merely pointing out that we see a fraction of the data that leads to the final coaching decisions.

bartruff1
01-17-2014, 08:42 AM
Now for other news...Germany Surrenders....

Vanzagger
01-17-2014, 08:44 AM
You guys realize that the GU lead went from 26 to 17 during the last 3 minutes of this comfortable, blowout win ... right?

Simple extrapolation shows that if Few had played the bench for the last 6 minutes (vs the last 3) there was a chance of that 26 point lead ending up an 8 point victory. Not sure anyone reading this board would have enjoyed that very much.

But it would have provided an even better reason for "bashing" ... or "questioning". At least that's my opinion.

That was garbage time. Who cares. Remember vs Santa when game tied in 2nd half. He subs in 2 guys, Luke and Angel, who had basically never played. They bailed us out that game. Few could get cute yesterday so he did. Hopefully David got a couple more steals because that game doesn't get us ready for March.

jazzdelmar
01-17-2014, 08:46 AM
Seems that many here forget about that little thing Allen Iverson referred to as "practice."

Coach Few and co. see a lot more of these guys than we do. The mistakes we see in games may seem like the first instance of something to us, but for the coaching staff it may be a mistake they have tried to correct repeatedly with no success. Not criticizing Coleman, Nunez, or anybody...merely pointing out that we see a fraction of the data that leads to the final coaching decisions.

Excellent point. Kinda scary if thats true since these guys have been practicing in the program for more than a year and if they still default to the helter skleter style they apparently brought with them then maybe they are unredeemable.....

LongIslandZagFan
01-17-2014, 08:55 AM
Excellent point. Kinda scary if thats true since these guys have been practicing in the program for more than a year and if they still default to the helter skleter style they apparently brought with them then maybe they are unredeemable.....

Not sure I'd say un-redeemable... but more likely to see minutes where there style works rather than the larger minutes where they play within the system.

Vanzagger
01-17-2014, 09:02 AM
History will not be kind to the David Stockton project if they don't make the 2nd weekend this year. Too many NBA type players for this to be anywhere near acceptable. Sorry but I didn't put them in this corner. Coach up your best players if you have to.

John Thompson the III is the only other coach to ever come close to this but his dad has a title with G-Town

Birddog
01-17-2014, 09:06 AM
You're wasting your breath Z-sker.......
And you're not Jazz? Give me a break, hell give us all a break. You are well on your way to becoming an animated hemorrhoid. I used to appreciate your sometimes contrarian viewpoint but your mantra has become tiresome.

BTB
01-17-2014, 09:12 AM
History will not be kind to the David Stockton project if they don't make the 2nd weekend this year. Too many NBA type players for this to be anywhere near acceptable. Sorry but I didn't put them in this corner. Coach up your best players if you have to.

John Thompson the III is the only other coach to ever come close to this but his dad has a title with G-Town

Just curious, what NBA players do you think we have on this team? I see one: Karnowski. Pangos MIGHT get a training camp invitation if he has a great year next year.

jazzdelmar
01-17-2014, 09:19 AM
And you're not Jazz? Give me a break, hell give us all a break. You are well on your way to becoming an animated hemorrhoid. I used to appreciate your sometimes contrarian viewpoint but your mantra has become tiresome.

right back atcha, boomer

ZagsGoZags
01-17-2014, 09:24 AM
AN looks lost out there when he doesn't have the ball. Remember when he raced up to a Wave player down on their end of the court and immediately fouled the guy? I couldn't believe it and Few looked amazed and disgusted. Karno is learning how to play without fouling out, something AN has to learn. When he has it he charges towards the basket even though 2 or 3 defenders are already congregated there. At least during rebounding he gets into the fray. He doesn't look for good assists though does make a good pass once in a while. I don't know if he doesn't know the plays, or forgets them in his excitement, or is stubbornly thinking 'I will play my own way, I am so talented the coach will have to use me more ... playing my way.' Maybe AN isn't coachable. He is potentially an elite player, but it is up to him. The world isn't going to change for him. He has to make the changes, the ones he needs to make are in his head. IMO.

Gibbs and Manny moved and got more playing time and recognition. It worked for them, and Spangler would have had to wait a long time here to get his minutes.

gonwick
01-17-2014, 09:35 AM
Perhaps some viewpoints feel repetitive because the source of consternation never changes. I don't think that makes someone less of a fan, it just means that they are annoyed by something they never see changing. I don't think anyone concerned about Few's lineups will be excited by another early march exit. People take the time to come to a basketball board because they give a sh!t not because they like to talk sh!t.

This has been a very frustrating season for me to watch. Lots of injuries, lots of weak games, lots of things out of few's control. But, the an and gc debate is relevant because it involves things few controls. He sets the lineups that are often puzzling. He allocates game time and sets expectations for it. GC was one of the few people who played with heart against Portland, and he gets no time in the second half of a blowout the next game. I'm just a simple guy, but it sure seems like few could have done some coaching at half time, set expectations for second half minutes, and pulled players if those expectations were not met. That didn't happen. If those two players truly cannot play within the system to few's liking and will never see the floor in meaningful minutes, then few is the one who tied up two roster spots.

Few faces no meaningful questioning from spokane media. As many have pointed out already, he certainly doesn't care what the board thinks. I don't understand why people begrudge others the right to question a coach's decisions when the same decisions are made over and over. Particularly when a short bench is nearly guaranteed to spell an early exit in march, if the zags are lucky enough to make it in. Few has from now until march to figure out how to get meaningful minutes from these players, and at this pace I don't see it happening.

LongIslandZagFan
01-17-2014, 09:36 AM
History will not be kind to the David Stockton project if they don't make the 2nd weekend this year. Too many NBA type players for this to be anywhere near acceptable. Sorry but I didn't put them in this corner. Coach up your best players if you have to.

John Thompson the III is the only other coach to ever come close to this but his dad has a title with G-Town

In regards to the bolded.... What drugs are you on?? If they are that good you should be sharing.

Yes... we get it. David is too short. You don't like him... don't think he should even be on the team... we get it.

We can agree on one thing... he won't be in the NBA.

Mr Vulture
01-17-2014, 09:37 AM
Why would they transfer? Coleman would basically be sitting out his senior season to do it and Nunez would lose his Junior year after sitting out the last year as well. All that is happening is that they play based on game styles and matchups. Nunez was a bit slow on defense in the first half and therefore he sat. It's not punishment as much as it is about getting the guys on the floor that are working. I have zero issue with this myself and I think they understand what is going on.

jim77
01-17-2014, 09:37 AM
We have another game on Saturday and after the poor performance last week, I assume Few wanted to give some players a little more time to work on a few things. Considering he said his main focus after Thursdays game was to get his guys some rest, I'm sure he was trying to establish a rhythm with some of the players. Coleman and Nunez will continue to see time. I think there were more pressing issues tonight.

Agreed. Sometimes different situations require different players. I think Few was re- estabilishing our starters after all the injuries/sickness...let em experience some success together for a game. Coleman and Nunez are good players who will get their time....As an above poster said Anthony Ireland may see quite a bit of Mr. Coleman.....and Mr. Coleman can handle him. I think Nunez is a timebomb...the guy is capable of dropping a ton of points.....and he's exactly what we need against the more athletic teams come tourney time. When Shem....Kyle and Nunez get together next year...LOOKOUT! I would not put an elite 8 past these guys THIS year.....we just need to get em' all healthy.

LongIslandZagFan
01-17-2014, 09:41 AM
.... and Spangler would have had to wait a long time here to get his minutes.

Um... he was getting minutes from the get go. He got around 7 min per game... behind Sacre and E. Not sure we'd have ended up with Karnowski if Spangler stayed.

LongIslandZagFan
01-17-2014, 09:42 AM
Why would they transfer? Coleman would basically be sitting out his senior season to do it and Nunez would lose his Junior year after sitting out the last year as well. All that is happening is that they play based on game styles and matchups. Nunez was a bit slow on defense in the first half and therefore he sat. It's not punishment as much as it is about getting the guys on the floor that are working. I have zero issue with this myself and I think they understand what is going on.

Yeah... meant to bring this up. Neither of these guys would transfer AFTER transferring. They'd actually be burning eligibility.

Zagceo
01-17-2014, 09:43 AM
Perhaps some viewpoints feel repetitive because the source of consternation never changes. I don't think that makes someone less of a fan, it just means that they are annoyed by something they never see changing. I don't think anyone concerned about Few's lineups will be excited by another early march exit. People take the time to come to a basketball board because they give a sh!t not because they like to talk sh!t.

This has been a very frustrating season for me to watch. Lots of injuries, lots of weak games, lots of things out of few's control. But, the an and gc debate is relevant because it involves things few controls. He sets the lineups that are often puzzling. He allocates game time and sets expectations for it. GC was one of the few people who played with heart against Portland, and he gets no time in the second half of a blowout the next game. I'm just a simple guy, but it sure seems like few could have done some coaching at half time, set expectations for second half minutes, and pulled players if those expectations were not met. That didn't happen. If those two players truly cannot play within the system to few's liking and will never see the floor in meaningful minutes, then few is the one who tied up two roster spots.

Few faces no meaningful questioning from spokane media. As many have pointed out already, he certainly doesn't care what the board thinks. I don't understand why people begrudge others the right to question a coach's decisions when the same decisions are made over and over. Particularly when a short bench is nearly guaranteed to spell an early exit in march, if the zags are lucky enough to make it in. Few has from now until march to figure out how to get meaningful minutes from these players, and at this pace I don't see it happening.

Nice post. +1

northsidezagfan
01-17-2014, 09:48 AM
Just curious, what NBA players do you think we have on this team? I see one: Karnowski. Pangos MIGHT get a training camp invitation if he has a great year next year.

I think Vanzagger is referring to the last several years Stockton has seen significant minutes, not just this team.

Vanzagger
01-17-2014, 09:49 AM
A few years ago an ESPN analyst said Dower was our best pro prospect. I think GBJ not playing small forward is a great prospect. Kevin yes. Shem Nasty yes. This is our QB's 5th year. He started as a soph. It's time to do this.

I like David but if I am coaching a top 15 program I get guys like Spangler more minutes before I start cramming extra point guards on the floor.

Vanzagger
01-17-2014, 09:55 AM
LIZF...enjoy the Seahawks game Sunday. I hope Russell Wilson takes these next few weeks and proves his doubters(me) wrong. I am just hopeful they don't clone him and put him at TE as well.

LongIslandZagFan
01-17-2014, 09:55 AM
A few years ago an ESPN analyst said Dower was our best pro prospect. I think GBJ not playing small forward is a great prospect. Kevin yes. Shem Nasty yes. This is our QB's 5th year. He started as a soph. It's time to do this.

I like David but if I am coaching a top 15 program I get guys like Spangler more minutes before I start cramming extra point guards on the floor.

I don't see Sam at the next level... Love the kid... but size makes him tweener... he may get an invite to a summer league... but not going to be drafted... not even late second.
Gary... TBD... he is going to have to have a heck of a year next year and stay healthy.
Pangos... borderline... he'll likely go second round if at all... he will get invites... he may stick... but not convinced.
Karno... if he keeps improving... yes.

The Spangler comment is mind boggling. Would you have preferred Rob or E be taken off the court in favor of Spangler? Not sure how you would run all three at the same time.

jazzdelmar
01-17-2014, 09:58 AM
I don't see Sam at the next level... Love the kid... but size makes him tweener... he may get an invite to a summer league... but not going to be drafted... not even late second.
Gary... TBD... he is going to have to have a heck of a year next year and stay healthy.
Pangos... borderline... he'll likely go second round if at all... he will get invites... he may stick... but not convinced.
Karno... if he keeps improving... yes.

The Spangler comment is mind boggling. Would you have preferred Rob or E be taken off the court in favor of Spangler? Not sure how you would run all three at the same time.

LIZ, I figure the trade off was Spangs for KO......Spangs got a good look at KO that redshirt year and prob guessed wisely Im not playing over him the next two years....

LongIslandZagFan
01-17-2014, 09:59 AM
I'd have to agree with you there Jazz.

cjm720
01-17-2014, 10:00 AM
Perhaps some viewpoints feel repetitive because the source of consternation never changes. I don't think that makes someone less of a fan, it just means that they are annoyed by something they never see changing. I don't think anyone concerned about Few's lineups will be excited by another early march exit. People take the time to come to a basketball board because they give a sh!t not because they like to talk sh!t.

This has been a very frustrating season for me to watch. Lots of injuries, lots of weak games, lots of things out of few's control. But, the an and gc debate is relevant because it involves things few controls. He sets the lineups that are often puzzling. He allocates game time and sets expectations for it. GC was one of the few people who played with heart against Portland, and he gets no time in the second half of a blowout the next game. I'm just a simple guy, but it sure seems like few could have done some coaching at half time, set expectations for second half minutes, and pulled players if those expectations were not met. That didn't happen. If those two players truly cannot play within the system to few's liking and will never see the floor in meaningful minutes, then few is the one who tied up two roster spots.

Few faces no meaningful questioning from spokane media. As many have pointed out already, he certainly doesn't care what the board thinks. I don't understand why people begrudge others the right to question a coach's decisions when the same decisions are made over and over. Particularly when a short bench is nearly guaranteed to spell an early exit in march, if the zags are lucky enough to make it in. Few has from now until march to figure out how to get meaningful minutes from these players, and at this pace I don't see it happening.

this is one of the most fascinating seasons to watch from my perspective.

funny season indeed. many posts about Few's best coaching season one week, then questioning him the following week.

like it or not we're stuck in the WCC and Few's playing for a 1 or 2 seed which will help us get to the big dance. we can't take anything for granted this year and have to lay it all on the floor...if so, we can nearly beat anyone IMO and if not, we can nearly get beat by anyone.

And as far as Few's decisions are made, he's the one with the stress not us. He's the one watching practice and certainly know the strengths and limitations of his players better than we do. I get some of the criticism, it's natural. I just don't think some here understand how difficult it is to do what this program continues to do...regardless of early exits (and the fact that we've played better than our seeding that not overall).

bartruff1
01-17-2014, 10:16 AM
I am curious,...... has anyone made or seen a analysis of Few's record in the NCAA Tourney against the chalk ??

That is..... has he won/lost when he was supposed to, when he was the favorite and has he won/lost when he was the underdog ??......or some other more relevant standard ...and no, I am not so curious to do it myself...

Maybe it isn't even that complicated..... if you assume that a "early exit" was a lost to a team with a higher numerical seed ??

All this early exit talk must have a statistical basis over a career , not just last year??

cjm720
01-17-2014, 10:18 AM
Yes, GoZags (i'm pretty sure) has posted many times. We have statistically fared better or at our seeding level during the 15 year run...the last few years stand out to most though, of course.


I am curious,...... has anyone made or seen a analysis of Few's record in the NCAA Tourney against the chalk ??

That is..... has he won when he was supposed to, when he was the favorite and has he won when he was the underdog ??......or some other more relevant standard ...and no, I am not so curious to do it myself...

All this early exit talk must have a statistical basis over a career , not just last year??

bartruff1
01-17-2014, 10:31 AM
Yes, GoZags (i'm pretty sure) has posted many times. We have statistically fared better or at our seeding level during the 15 year run...the last few years stand out to most though, of course.

I did a search but I didn't find it...probably operator error.... I sure would like to see it ?

Wait a minute...Wiki has some data... in the last 15 years Gonzaga has lost to a higher seed (early exit) 5 times....02, 04, 05, 08 and 2013.....

So that is not so bad in my view, with one early exit in the last 5 years....oh the humanity...

GamblingZag
01-17-2014, 10:48 AM
you can check game by game here. but covers' is known to have some innacuracies

http://www.covers.com/pageLoader/pageLoader.aspx?page=/data/ncb/teams/pastresults/2012-2013/team2265.html

zag944
01-17-2014, 10:49 AM
GU vs the chalk expectation for our seed:


Exceeded "chalk" expectation 4 times: 00 (purdue),01, (Michigan state), 03 (zona), 11 (BYU)

Played to expectation 5 times: 06 (UCLA), 07 (Indiana), 09 (UNC), 10 (Cuse), 12 (Ohio St)

Below "chalk" expectation 5 times: 02 (Wyoming), 04 (Nevada), 05 (Texas Tech), 08 (Davidson), 13 (WSU)

cjm720
01-17-2014, 10:59 AM
Thx for posting...where'd you find the info?

I'm still pissed at the Committee for the Davidson seeding :) and don't really count that


GU vs the chalk expectation for our seed:


Exceeded "chalk" expectation 4 times: 00 (purdue),01, (Michigan state), 03 (zona), 11 (BYU)

Played to expectation 5 times: 06 (UCLA), 07 (Indiana), 09 (UNC), 10 (Cuse), 12 (Ohio St)

Below "chalk" expectation 5 times: 02 (Wyoming), 04 (Nevada), 05 (Texas Tech), 08 (Davidson), 13 (WSU)

Birddog
01-17-2014, 11:03 AM
Below "chalk" expectation 5 times: 02 (Wyoming), 04 (Nevada), 05 (Texas Tech), 08 (Davidson), 13 (WSU)
Wyo, just a bad game. Zags should have won, Nev, Turiaf got called for 2 fouls after about 2 mins of play. Nev had 2 or 3 NBA players on the roster,TT, Few was outcoached (B Knight), Dav, horrible draw and Steph Curry shot lights out. He's still doing it if you haven't noticed, WSU final 4 team.

northsidezagfan
01-17-2014, 11:06 AM
Also important to note is how far we over/under achieved. Like last year when we "should have" won 4 games according to our seed but only won 1, or 2000 when we "should have" won 0 but won 2. But I'm not going to look all that up.

cjm720
01-17-2014, 11:12 AM
that tech game was maddening...what up by 9 at half...ugh. Nevada game and those fouls, made me so mad...
Wyo, just a bad game. Zags should have won, Nev, Turiaf got called for 2 fouls after about 2 mins of play. Nev had 2 or 3 NBA players on the roster,TT, Few was outcoached (B Knight), Dav, horrible draw and Steph Curry shot lights out. He's still doing it if you haven't noticed, WSU final 4 team.

zag944
01-17-2014, 11:21 AM
Also important to note is how far we over/under achieved. Like last year when we "should have" won 4 games according to our seed but only won 1, or 2000 when we "should have" won 0 but won 2. But I'm not going to look all that up.

Yep, a lot of those are years when we were 7, 8, 9, or 10 seeds, where exceeding or performing below chalk shouldn't be weighted nearly as heavily.

zag944
01-17-2014, 11:22 AM
Thx for posting...where'd you find the info?


did it off memory sadly. I need a hobby

demian
01-17-2014, 11:28 AM
I'm glad to see this thread because I spent the entire blowout second half wondering wtf few was thinking. How is a player suppposed to develop if they don't even get on the floor in a blowout? Let them play, let them make mistakes and learn from them in a safe setting so they can contribute in more crucial minutes later. This is classic few. Those guys won't get any minutes, gu will run into an athletic team in the tournament that stifles our silly three guard lineup, and few will have nowhere to turn because no one else has gotten real time. Plus,it hurts their development for next year. Watching few coach makes me want to beat my head against a wall sometimes.

agree 100%

Zag 77
01-17-2014, 11:30 AM
Come on, guys, this is not YMCA ball where everybody gets to play. Few wants things done a certain way, and if you don't do it that way, you sit. Look back over his career and you see that over and over.

This is not complicated. When the coach of a major-college athletic team says "jump," you say "yes sir, how high?"

Coleman got his chance and did some one-on-three drives and looked bad, compared to where he was a few games ago where he was starting to get the message: PLAY TEAM BASKETBALL .

Nunez was a foul machine and looked confused.

You don't reward guys with major minutes. I thought it was charitable that Few got them back in for mop-up duty with Bashkar, Griffin and Edwards.

Compare Edwards. He went in and did his job simply and fundamentally and contributed to the team concept. he got rewarded with more minutes.

demian
01-17-2014, 11:37 AM
agree 100%


Perhaps some viewpoints feel repetitive because the source of consternation never changes. I don't think that makes someone less of a fan, it just means that they are annoyed by something they never see changing. I don't think anyone concerned about Few's lineups will be excited by another early march exit. People take the time to come to a basketball board because they give a sh!t not because they like to talk sh!t.

This has been a very frustrating season for me to watch. Lots of injuries, lots of weak games, lots of things out of few's control. But, the an and gc debate is relevant because it involves things few controls. He sets the lineups that are often puzzling. He allocates game time and sets expectations for it. GC was one of the few people who played with heart against Portland, and he gets no time in the second half of a blowout the next game. I'm just a simple guy, but it sure seems like few could have done some coaching at half time, set expectations for second half minutes, and pulled players if those expectations were not met. That didn't happen. If those two players truly cannot play within the system to few's liking and will never see the floor in meaningful minutes, then few is the one who tied up two roster spots.

Few faces no meaningful questioning from spokane media. As many have pointed out already, he certainly doesn't care what the board thinks. I don't understand why people begrudge others the right to question a coach's decisions when the same decisions are made over and over. Particularly when a short bench is nearly guaranteed to spell an early exit in march, if the zags are lucky enough to make it in. Few has from now until march to figure out how to get meaningful minutes from these players, and at this pace I don't see it happening.

northsidezagfan
01-17-2014, 11:38 AM
OK so I did look it up. This is purely by seed, and it assumes that seeds 9-16 "should not" win any games, 5-8 "should" win 1, 3-4 "should" win 2, seed 2 "should" win 3 and the 1 seed "should" win 4. I think we were #4 of the 1 seeds, so we "should" have lost in the FF last year, and therefore won 4 games. I would assume in this model the #1 overall seed should win 6 games, and the #2 overall should win 5, but obviously that doesn't really apply to us.
2000:+2
2001:+2
2002: -1
2003:+1
2004:-2
2005:-1
2006:0
2007:-1
2008:-1
2009:0
2010:0
2011:+1
2012:0
2013:-3
In the Few era we are -3 if you go by starting seed. -7 in the last 10 years. think this is a logical way to look at it but maybe I'm wrong.

VinnyZag
01-17-2014, 12:04 PM
I'm going to attempt to address this question in a way that doesn't rely on pop psychology or assume that Few is just a vindictive jerk.

First, I'll say that I have high hopes for both Coleman and Nunez.

However.

One of the things Ken Pomeroy and other stats-minded people track is percentage of possessions used. Pomeroy explains the stat thusly:


Percentage of possessions used (%Poss): A measure of personal possessions used while the player is on the court. Simply assigns credit or blame to a player when his actions end a possession, either by making a shot, missing a shot that isn’t rebounded by the offense, or committing a turnover.

Gonzaga's two leaders in percentage of possessions used, adjusted for when they are on the floor, are Gerard Coleman and Angel Nunez.

On KenPom's team pages (here's Gonzaga's (http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Gonzaga), which is paywall protected), he breaks down every player on the roster into categories: limited role, role players, significant contributors, major contributors and "go-to guys." These categories are based on percentage of possessions used -- go-to guys use more than 28 percent of their team's possessions when they are on the floor.

The only two GU players who use greater than 28 percent of the team's possessions are Coleman (33.5%) and Nunez (28.9%). They also have the two lowest offensive ratings of the nine guys whose stats are tracked (Coleman 97.1 points per 100 possessions, Nunez 94.5).

Does anybody think that those guys should be using more possessions than Pangos, Dower and Bell (when healthy)?

By comparison, here are stats for their teammates: Pangos 21.1 percent of possessions, 131.1 offense rating; Dower 21.6 percent of possessions, 129.5 offense rating; Bell 18.0 percent of possessions, 134.8 offense rating.

As far as why Stockton plays so much? I think we can all agree that he's very good about getting the ball to the scorers.

My working theory is this: Coleman and Nunez are playing limited minutes because when they are on the floor, they take shots that ought to be going to Pangos, Dower, Bell and Karnowski (24.3 percent of possessions, 100.5 offense rating). This probably will continue until and unless they can learn to play inside the team concept that GU seems to value.

I've seen signs of Coleman doing that, although I'm not sure the stats back it up. And for Nunez, well, yesterday was basically his sixth collegiate game, so I'd guess there's hope.

Like many of you, I was disappointed yesterday that Coleman and Nunez didn't get more run in the second half. But I think we can see what the reason is ... and it's not just that "Few doesn't like them."

siliconzag
01-17-2014, 12:28 PM
Jazz has a big heart and the best of intentions. He is a very good guy, even if he appears to be a "Doubting Thomas." His insights are rarely off target in my opinon. He has an emphatic communication style, that makes him occasionally appear bombastic to the West Coasters. The discussion is getting tiresome. Folks are divided within the Gonzaga community. In terms of AN and GC, not sure what to say. I haven't watched this team as much as I have Creighton this year. Coach McDermott has a project named Devin Brooks, a point guard JC transfer from Harlem. He has been a challenge for Mac, but as the season has gone on, he has earned more an more playing time and his assist to turnover ratio now exceeds 1. I do notice when Devin is in hot water, Mac always has his arm around him, and he teaches right then and there, but it is done with respect, and most of all with verbal communication. Devin has improved in so many ways. Many Creighton alums get nervous everytime he comes in, but less so these days. I don't know how effectively Coach Few communicates. Part of getting the players buy in is to show consistent respect and affection for them, in addition to pointing out their opportunities. Most of these kids were prima donnas in high school, and many of them are delicate flowers, tall or not. Let us also not forget, that some kids are more teachable than others...

Sili

cjm720
01-17-2014, 12:54 PM
Sili, and let's not forget that Bobby Knight was an ass and won a championship...different personality types can be just as effective.

siliconzag
01-17-2014, 01:03 PM
Sili, and let's not forget that Bobby Knight was an ass and won a championship...different personality types can be just as effective.

According to Machiavelli, it is more important to be feared than loved, but to be both loved and feared is best of all! Many testimonials from former players of BK suggest that he always conveyed caring for his players. It is a tough job, coaching 19-20 year old prima donnas. As a former "coach" (Chief of Service), I certainly had my share of challenges. Whenever I found myself most effective, I came from a perspective of love, listening, and concern. It is not sufficient but it is necessary. Good mentoring only happens when those factors are present IMO. Incidentally, I am not saying that Coach Few lacks those qualities. I really don't know.

bballbeachbum
01-17-2014, 01:06 PM
Come on, guys, this is not YMCA ball where everybody gets to play. Few wants things done a certain way, and if you don't do it that way, you sit. Look back over his career and you see that over and over.

This is not complicated. When the coach of a major-college athletic team says "jump," you say "yes sir, how high?"

Coleman got his chance and did some one-on-three drives and looked bad, compared to where he was a few games ago where he was starting to get the message: PLAY TEAM BASKETBALL .

Nunez was a foul machine and looked confused.

You don't reward guys with major minutes. I thought it was charitable that Few got them back in for mop-up duty with Bashkar, Griffin and Edwards.

Compare Edwards. He went in and did his job simply and fundamentally and contributed to the team concept. he got rewarded with more minutes.

looks like you are watching the games with your eyes and not your invested hopes. Agree with your post 100%. I hope that AN can figure this out, especially on the road, and get his butt on the floor more by earning it with his play. We all know their potential is high for both GC and AN, but check out Vinny's post to numerically explain what Zag 77 explained intuitively. Would I like to see them play more? Heck yes, but not like AN has been playing which is foul prone and hyper. WHEN he starts demonstrating better decision making--it's not a difficult equation, it's decision making, and they have to up their game on that specific thing, particularly AN imo as GC has shown great strides but didn't really show them last night. Looks to me sometimes like each overvalue their physical abilities in their adjustment to WCC play and therefore over do it way too often. GC has adjusted better imo, AN still searching looks like to me

great post Vinny

bartruff1
01-17-2014, 01:09 PM
Northside, you can look at things anyway you want, but it is wise to remember there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

Another way to look would be to consider where the team that beat you finished...or....or....

I am always reminded of the Henny Youngman response when someone asked him " How's your wife ?" to wit he replied " Compared to what ? "

There may very well be some Mid Major Coaches or Programs out there that have a better record over the last 15 years or maybe a few coaches of Majors who have done better ?

It would be interesting to see who has done better ?

jazzdelmar
01-17-2014, 01:18 PM
Northside, you can look at things anyway you want, but it is wise to remember there are lies, damn lies and statistics.

Another way to look would be to consider where the team that beat you finished...or....or....

I am always reminded of the Henny Youngman response when someone asked him " How's your wife ?" to wit he replied " Compared to what ? "

There may very well be some Mid Major Coaches or Programs out there that have a better record over the last 15 years or maybe a few coaches of Majors who have done better ?

It would be interesting to see who has done better ?


Bart, best ever Henny line apropos for this thread: "You wanna help, don't help." But the second part, "don't help," somehow begins being said before "wanna help" ends. At least back in Brooklyn.

cjm720
01-17-2014, 01:19 PM
+1 on the double +1


looks like you are watching the games with your eyes and not your invested hopes. Agree with your post 100%. I hope that AN can figure this out, especially on the road, and get his butt on the floor more by earning it with his play. We all know their potential is high for both GC and AN, but check out Vinny's post to numerically explain what Zag 77 explained intuitively. Would I like to see them play more? Heck yes, but not like AN has been playing which is foul prone and hyper. WHEN he starts demonstrating better decision making--it's not a difficult equation, it's decision making, and they have to up their game on that specific thing, particularly AN imo as GC has shown great strides but didn't really show them last night. Looks to me sometimes like each overvalue their physical abilities in their adjustment to WCC play and therefore over do it way too often. GC has adjusted better imo, AN still searching looks like to me

great post Vinny

former1dog
01-17-2014, 01:20 PM
Jazz has a big heart and the best of intentions. He is a very good guy, even if he appears to be a "Doubting Thomas." His insights are rarely off target in my opinon. He has an emphatic communication style, that makes him occasionally appear bombastic to the West Coasters.

I've been lucky enough to meet Jazz and share correspondence with him. He's a good guy. He's welcome at my dinner table, the next barstool or the bleacher seat next to me any time. That goes for you to, Sili.

zagfan1
01-17-2014, 01:30 PM
This how I see it. AN plays dumb and rightfully so gets yanked out of the game. The next time he gets out there he plays smarter. This is proof he should play in the second half so he can continue to develop.

GC played well and hustled when he was in the game. He should have been given minutes in the second half.

The question really is Few developing his talent lin preparation for the NCAA tournament? I guarantee we will need length and athleticism at that time to handle the Kansas State, Mich state teams. Maybe we should just accept the fact we are one and done if we make it into the tournament . Fews job is to develop his talent based on his existing personnel. I believe GC and AN are still teachable currently.

GoZags
01-17-2014, 01:36 PM
I've been lucky enough to meet Jazz and share correspondence with him. He's a good guy. He's welcome at my dinner table, the next barstool or the bleacher seat next to me any time. That goes for you to, Sili.

You too???? fWIW I share your sentiments re Jazz (and not just because he picked up the tab). As for "Sili" ... He's one of those guys who I consider a friend .... Even though we've never met. Such is the power of
Guboards and the PM feature.

former1dog
01-17-2014, 01:37 PM
You too???? fWIW I share your sentiments re Jazz (and not just because he picked up the tab).

I was invited and many times subsequently, but I haven't had the honor of Jazz picking up the tab yet. :)

cjm720
01-17-2014, 01:41 PM
Few's playing for a 1 or 2 seed....in the WCC. Making the NCAA tournament is not a given. Win now, worry later...one game at a time.


This how I see it. AN plays dumb and rightfully so gets yanked out of the game. The next time he gets out there he plays smarter. This is proof he should play in the second half so he can continue to develop.

GC played well and hustled when he was in the game. He should have been given minutes in the second half.

The question really is Few developing his talent lin preparation for the NCAA tournament? I guarantee we will need length and athleticism at that time to handle the Kansas State, Mich state teams. Maybe we should just accept the fact we are one and done if we make it into the tournament . Fews job is to develop his talent based on his existing personnel. I believe GC and AN are still teachable currently.

jazzdelmar
01-17-2014, 01:43 PM
I want to thank the Academy and, in order of their appearance, Sili, Doggie and GZ, for the kudos.....kudii? Happy to pick up for any wandering Zagger. ZagaZags?, thats a whole nother story. PS: How does my pal Redford not get a nom?

bartruff1
01-17-2014, 01:49 PM
Jazz takes some getting used to....at first I thought the leg humping was disturbing, but it is just his way of saying " I like you a lot ".

jazzdelmar
01-17-2014, 01:50 PM
Jazz takes some getting used to....at first I thought the leg humping was disturbing, but it is just his way of saying " I like you a lot ".

Woof!

Vanzagger
01-17-2014, 02:03 PM
When you are ranked around 20 every preseason and you are west of the Mississippi that means you have big time talent. I have herd coach say "how special" it is when Zags win a tourney game. Sorry times have changed and it's expected.

Losing to Portland lowers expectations. I think he is fine with that. He is really going to be comfortable when the "revenue conferences" get to start paying their players. We won't be able to compete with that so 16 seed city and no expectations.

maynard g krebs
01-17-2014, 02:15 PM
Few could get cute yesterday so he did.

What do you mean by "get cute"? I have made it my mission in life to find out. Last time you used this phrase, you ignored my query. I'm dying to find out what you mean by this.

My conclusion has to be that you have no idea what you mean, or you'd explain it.

jazzdelmar
01-17-2014, 02:19 PM
What do you mean by "get cute"? I have made it my mission in life to find out. Last time you used this phrase, you ignored my query. I'm dying to find out what you mean by this.

My conclusion has to be that you have no idea what you mean, or you'd explain it.

Why are you browbeating the guy for? You know exactly what he means. As in, smarter than anyone I will show my critics, I will flesh out my legend as Mr. 80% won lost.

ZagaZags
01-17-2014, 02:19 PM
Birddog and Jazz remind me of these two guys. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKXlhpeb6wI

maynard g krebs
01-17-2014, 02:23 PM
Why are you browbeating the guy for? You know exactly what he means. As in, smarter than anyone I will show my critics, I will flesh out my legend as Mr. 80% won lost.

Projecting?

jazzdelmar
01-17-2014, 02:25 PM
That wasn't my take. Few engenders many images to me, cute is not close to being one.

jagwalkley
01-17-2014, 03:00 PM
History will not be kind to the David Stockton project if they don't make the 2nd weekend this year. Too many NBA type players for this to be anywhere near acceptable. Sorry but I didn't put them in this corner. Coach up your best players if you have to.

John Thompson the III is the only other coach to ever come close to this but his dad has a title with G-Town

When Larry(Bird) said,the best players will play,I think he meant in the NBA,not Few world.

bartruff1
01-17-2014, 03:21 PM
Of course Few determines who the best players are.... that reminds me of the comment that Huggins made after Gonzaga beat them in the tourney.... when asked why , he replied to the effect that Few recruits and coaches players that can play basketball...and most often the rest of us recruit players that can run and jump and shoot baskets and can't play basketball worth a damn.

GoZags
01-17-2014, 03:35 PM
Of course Few determines who the best players are.... that reminds me of the comment that Huggins made after Gonzaga beat them in the tourney.... when asked why , he replied to the effect that Few recruits and coaches players that can play basketball...and most often the rest of us recruit players that can run and jump and shoot baskets and can't play basketball worth a damn.

Great point Bart. And those guys that Huggins is talking about are EXACTLY the guys Vanzagger wants..... As long as they are tall and athletic. Vanzagger points out in this thread that GU generally starts the season in the Top 20 ... Generally has Top 20 talent ..... Yet Gonzaga has NEVER had a Scout.com Top 25 recruiting class.

Do I understand everything Fewie does? No way. Do I trust Fewie over the guboards legion of "experts"? Absolutely.

Vanzagger
01-17-2014, 03:49 PM
I think Huggins has been to a Final Four or 2. I do give Mark a lot of credit for winning big vs WV last couple times. Very impressive.

GoZags
01-17-2014, 04:47 PM
I think Huggins has been to a Final Four or 2. I do give Mark a lot of credit for winning big vs WV last couple times. Very impressive.

Yes. Bob Huggins started as a head coach in '79/'80 and has been to 2 Final Fours. Mark Few has been a head coach since '99/'00 and hasn't accomplished that. Would love to see Mark match (or exceed) Huggins' total. Time will tell.

northsidezagfan
01-17-2014, 05:00 PM
Northside, you can look at things anyway you want, but it is wise to remember there are lies, damn lies and statistics.


I really wasn't trying to prove any point at all. I had no idea what the # would be, and to tell you the truth it surprised me. Just thought it was a little more specific version of the record vs chalk you asked for.

Baseline
01-17-2014, 05:17 PM
I think we have a mismatch between players and coach. Most athletic kids grow up learning to slash or shoot the ball to succeed. Few plays team ball that isn't conducive to what the athletic kids have spent their life learning.
When GC started he was totally out of control so he rode the bench a few games and I'm hoping and assuming he was properly counseled during that time. Lately he has been much more of a team player and not just put his head down and go to the rim. Against Pepperdine he started reverting as old habits die hard. To me Few sent him a message by the second half playing time. Few will evolve slowly on how he incorporates more athletic kids into his plans. GC does not have the luxury of time to wait for Few's changes, if he wants to play he better quit jacking up the ball from all angles. I think he is a great kid and am hoping a bit of wisdom prevails.

AN has some of the same issues as GC, but does not have the slashing skills and is very poor at creating his own shot. Lowering the head and running into someone is not good basketball. AN is incredibly gifted athletically, but he has almost no skill-set to go with his abilities. He needs some serious coaching as to how to evolve his game. Most of his points come of his athleticism round the rim, when he tries to create it doesn't go well. He has the capability, but he needs to develop a for success. Make it simple at first, but once he gets the idea how to work within the team he could blossom. Some people do this quickly and some never get it. Until he learns to play team ball better, I would be playing Meickle as this is his whole game style, team ball. This isn't a swipe on Angel, just two guys at different points in fitting in.

bartruff1
01-17-2014, 06:25 PM
I really wasn't trying to prove any point at all. I had no idea what the # would be, and to tell you the truth it surprised me. Just thought it was a little more specific version of the record vs chalk you asked for.

No problem....it just seems to me that a " early exit " analysis is really pretty simple...as simple as, were you eliminated by a higher number seeded team...just a simple fact with no other assumption about what you should have done...but, in fact, what actually happened.

In my opinion, you can't get 3 "early exits" in one tourney

Just because something is obvious, doesn't mean it is wrong. More specific is not necessarily more accurate.

In any case...I would be surprised to find a mid major team or a coach with a better Tourney record over 15 years....especially if you counted a no appearance as " early exit ".

siliconzag
01-17-2014, 07:03 PM
Do I understand everything Fewie does? No way. Do I trust Fewie over the guboards legion of "experts"? Absolutely.

Oh, how more wicked than a serpents tooth, an ungrateful moderator. :)

Thanks for the nice sentiments Go Zags, I think the same of you. I feel as though we could have a few pints and solve the problems of the world. Maybe it would only take one, but two or three would be way more fun.

maynard g krebs
01-17-2014, 07:04 PM
Was gonna mention the Huggins quote. Glad somebody did.

This debate reminds me of a scene in the movie Charlie Wilson's War, about the Texas congressman's efforts to arm the Afghan rebels against the Russians. A seemingly conservative elderly constituent is visiting the congressman's office, and says to the receptionist something like, "I notice this office is staffed entirely by attractive young women". The young woman smiles sweetly and says, "the congressman has a sayin'- you can teach em to type, but you can't teach 'em to grow tits".

GU mostly built its name by recruiting players who knew how to type, i.e. play basketball, but those players have a collective ceiling when up against more physically talented athletes. So now Few is recruiting more players who have athletic talent, and trying to teach 'em to "type", with mixed results.

He's obviously been trying for years to get more athleticism on the floor. But the guys who are really athletic and have a high skill level and IQ all go to a handful of big conf power schools, and for one year. Guys like those discussed in this thread have upside, but they have weaknesses- both discussed ad nauseum.

You'd think expectations to be met for playing time would be discussed in detail before the players committed, and they understand what's expected from them.

The SWAC is full of players with "length" and "athleticism". Just throwing a bunch of tall, fast athletes on the floor isn't gonna necessarily win more games in March.

Zagsker
01-17-2014, 11:24 PM
Perhaps some viewpoints feel repetitive because the source of consternation never changes. I don't think that makes someone less of a fan, it just means that they are annoyed by something they never see changing. I don't think anyone concerned about Few's lineups will be excited by another early march exit. People take the time to come to a basketball board because they give a sh!t not because they like to talk sh!t.

This has been a very frustrating season for me to watch. Lots of injuries, lots of weak games, lots of things out of few's control. But, the an and gc debate is relevant because it involves things few controls. He sets the lineups that are often puzzling. He allocates game time and sets expectations for it. GC was one of the few people who played with heart against Portland, and he gets no time in the second half of a blowout the next game. I'm just a simple guy, but it sure seems like few could have done some coaching at half time, set expectations for second half minutes, and pulled players if those expectations were not met. That didn't happen. If those two players truly cannot play within the system to few's liking and will never see the floor in meaningful minutes, then few is the one who tied up two roster spots.

Few faces no meaningful questioning from spokane media. As many have pointed out already, he certainly doesn't care what the board thinks. I don't understand why people begrudge others the right to question a coach's decisions when the same decisions are made over and over. Particularly when a short bench is nearly guaranteed to spell an early exit in march, if the zags are lucky enough to make it in. Few has from now until march to figure out how to get meaningful minutes from these players, and at this pace I don't see it happening.

Winner winner chicken dinner

Great post

MDABE80
01-17-2014, 11:49 PM
I don't think this 5-6 kids will take us far into the NCAA's. Nor will Kevin's toe. Few, as least in m view, is not deveoping other tools he could. With Nunez and COleman sitting on the bench.two things (maybe 3) happen. 1. The kids don't develop. 2. The teams pretty much stays at it is. 3. The future is hampered.....both in this and the next 2 years.

There MUST be a way to allow some misscues and still find a way to let those gifted kids get better. It's just so obvious......to me it is. Lots of opportunity being missed.

Ekrub
01-18-2014, 12:07 AM
I don't think this 5-6 kids will take us far into the NCAA's. Nor will Kevin's toe. Few, as least in m view, is not deveoping other tools he could. With Nunez and COleman sitting on the bench.two things (maybe 3) happen. 1. The kids don't develop. 2. The teams pretty much stays at it is. 3. The future is hampered.....both in this and the next 2 years.

There MUST be a way to allow some misscues and still find a way to let those gifted kids get better. It's just so obvious......to me it is. Lots of opportunity being missed.

Not just to you.

WallaWallaZag
01-18-2014, 12:47 AM
I don't think this 5-6 kids will take us far into the NCAA's. Nor will Kevin's toe. Few, as least in m view, is not deveoping other tools he could. With Nunez and COleman sitting on the bench.two things (maybe 3) happen. 1. The kids don't develop. 2. The teams pretty much stays at it is. 3. The future is hampered.....both in this and the next 2 years.

There MUST be a way to allow some misscues and still find a way to let those gifted kids get better. It's just so obvious......to me it is. Lots of opportunity being missed.

if kelly olynyk can improve into a lotto pick while sitting on the bench, why can't nunez or coleman??? my guess is that nunez and coleman aren't showing enough in practice to deserve more playing time in games. like someone else said earlier...it's really not that complicated. imo, it's not as if few isn't clear on what he wants.

ZagaZags
01-18-2014, 12:53 AM
I want to thank the Academy and, in order of their appearance, Sili, Doggie oand GZ, for the kudos.....kudii? Happy to pick up for any wandering Zagger. ZagaZags?, thats a whole nother story. PS: How does my pal Redford not get a nom?

You are not getting out of lunch at Jake's that easily. :). Did you change your mind yet about going to the GU vs USD game?

ZagaZags
01-18-2014, 12:55 AM
if kelly olynyk can improve into a lotto pick while sitting on the bench, why can't nunez or coleman??? my guess is that nunez and coleman aren't showing enough in practice to deserve more playing time in games. like someone else said earlier...it's really not that complicated. imo, it's not as if few isn't clear on what he wants.

Coleman showed a ton of heart in the Portland game.

cggonzaga
01-18-2014, 01:02 AM
Not to mention 6pts and 3 fouls against the defense in 4 minutes against Pepp in the first half. Should've been at least 2 more points if he's making his free throws.

WallaWallaZag
01-18-2014, 01:20 AM
Coleman showed a ton of heart in the Portland game.

true, but he needed to try and be the hero in the portland game...he played like he still needed to be the hero against pepp, and that wasn't the case. that said, i still have more faith in coleman than nunez right now...i think coleman is figuring things out...will still take more time and long-term i'm just not sure how well a wing player that can't hit a jump shot can truly integrate into a mark few system. nunez has the advantage there and he also should have an extra year on coleman.

MDABE80
01-18-2014, 02:52 AM
One thing Walla. Kelly showed it on the floor after a redshirt year where he worked his rear off. Nunuz is just sitting. Coleman isn't seeing much floor either. How on earth can anyone expect kids to develop sitting? I think practice is esential but it's in those games where a kid measures his abilities and success so he knows what to work on. All work and no play disheartens a kid. Leaves him wonder what quirks he has to overcome. Neither of those two came to sit.

Zags11
01-18-2014, 03:25 AM
Well.....hmmmm.....I believe.....eh.

Birddog
01-18-2014, 04:38 AM
true, but he needed to try and be the hero in the portland game...he played like he still needed to be the hero against pepp, and that wasn't the case. that said, i still have more faith in coleman than nunez right now...i think coleman is figuring things out...will still take more time and long-term i'm just not sure how well a wing player that can't hit a jump shot can truly integrate into a mark few system. nunez has the advantage there and he also should have an extra year on coleman.

+1 on above.

Nunez has played like a human bumper car in the last 2 games. What was David Stockton's quote again? Coleman's signature move is "start at the right elbow and go left for a layup". Every coach now knows his tendencies (left hand). What at first looked exciting, athletic, borderline unstoppable is now fairly predictable. Hitting only 50% of your FT's is not helping either. IMO, both these guys get more PT by improving on defense, esp Nunez. AN needs to concentrate on "D" and let the rest of the game come to him and not force things so much. GC has to hit 80% on his FT's with his style of play to be a more effective weapon.

jazzdelmar
01-18-2014, 04:53 AM
+1 on above.

Nunez has played like a human bumper car in the last 2 games. What was David Stockton's quote again? Coleman's signature move is "start at the right elbow and go left for a layup". Every coach now knows his tendencies (left hand). What at first looked exciting, athletic, borderline unstoppable is now fairly predictable. Hitting only 50% of your FT's is not helping either. IMO, both these guys get more PT by improving on defense, esp Nunez. AN needs to concentrate on "D" and let the rest of the game come to him and not force things so much. GC has to hit 80% on his FT's with his style of play to be a more effective weapon.

Although I feel DS is the last person to critique a teammate's offensive prowess; he of the dribble to the middle, flail to the side if no easy layup lane and then pass off and back away; I agree w your assessment and actually enjoy the "bumper car" analogy. Off the past few games I have become somewhat disenchanted with both GC and AN. I still think they should be road tested but hold no great hope either is the "answer." Play Edwards and Meikle more, that's my new mantra.

cjm720
01-18-2014, 07:39 AM
One thing Walla. Kelly showed it on the floor after a redshirt year where he worked his rear off. Nunuz is just sitting. Coleman isn't seeing much floor either. How on earth can anyone expect kids to develop sitting? I think practice is esential but it's in those games where a kid measures his abilities and success so he knows what to work on. All work and no play disheartens a kid. Leaves him wonder what quirks he has to overcome. Neither of those two came to sit.

Did u watch the game? Nunez was clueless (and foul mouthed). We were coming off the worst game in years and coach was obviously working on set plays in the last quarter. Lots of games let...sure I think they should have got more of a run but to assume few has lost it and the program is off kilter is just not in touch.

Yea, you are losing it a bit....see it in your posts :)

cggonzaga
01-18-2014, 10:31 AM
You're spot on Abe. We don't always agree but I couldn't agree more with this. If the season is about another 20+win season and possible league title then keep playing who you're playing. The guys that are getting the minutes right now will not win in March though.

MDABE80
01-18-2014, 11:07 AM
" but to assume few has lost it and the program is off kilter is just not in touch."...............nobody said this. We are stagnant and have been for years. Remember.."nothing changes if nothing changes" But yes.I am losing it;)

Cgg...........brilliant post since you agree with me! Well done!

We do need something. We're not down and out. We all know other schools would love 5 Swt 16's and a league title. I'm not talking about those accomplishments. Seriously. BUT to advance further is a project. TO do that some things must change......and I think most know it. This business of a gaudy record only to be mugged in the NCAA..........and then embarrassed. Not good. SO if we're far ahead why not see what others might do?
DO you all really think Few kept that 5-6 in because he wanted some practice running his sets? I think the reason AN and GC are the two points of focus because they show the big time potential that might help us to move on. One and done is our new calling card. We all hate that.

SO change it. With a 25 pt lead, the kids that "might" change things for the better sat. Both AN and GC have 2 years left. I hope we get the best from each.

Hoopaholic
01-18-2014, 11:13 AM
" but to assume few has lost it and the program is off kilter is just not in touch."...............nobody said this. We are stagnant and have been for years. Remember.."nothing changes if nothing changes" But yes.I am losing it;)

Cgg...........brilliant post since you agree with me! Well done!

We do need something. We're not down and out. We all know other schools would love 5 Swt 16's and a league title. I'm not talking about those accomplishments. Seriously. BUT to advance further is a project. TO do that some things must change......and I think most know it. This business of a gaudy record only to be mugged in the NCAA..........and then embarrassed. Not good. SO if we're far ahead why not see what others might do?
DO you all really think Few kept that 5-6 in because he wanted some practice running his sets? I think the reason AN and GC are the two points of focus because they show the big time potential that might help us to move on. One and done is our new calling card. We all hate that.

SO change it. With a 25 pt lead, the kids that "might" change things for the better sat. Both AN and GC have 2 years left. I hope we get the best from each.

The other tidbit I cannot get my arms around was against pepperdine we were exchanging basket for basket until these two players came in and we suddenly had consecutive stops allowing us to put distance between us and waves.....

ZagsGoZags
01-18-2014, 11:39 AM
Vinny said

"Gonzaga's two leaders in percentage of possessions used, adjusted for when they are on the floor, are Gerard Coleman and Angel Nunez.

On KenPom's team pages (here's Gonzaga's (http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Gonzaga), which is paywall protected), he breaks down every player on the roster into categories: limited role, role players, significant contributors, major contributors and "go-to guys." These categories are based on percentage of possessions used -- go-to guys use more than 28 percent of their team's possessions when they are on the floor.

The only two GU players who use greater than 28 percent of the team's possessions are Coleman (33.5%) and Nunez (28.9%). They also have the two lowest offensive ratings of the nine guys whose stats are tracked (Coleman 97.1 points per 100 possessions, Nunez 94.5).

Does anybody think that those guys should be using more possessions than Pangos, Dower and Bell (when healthy)?

By comparison, here are stats for their teammates: Pangos 21.1 percent of possessions, 131.1 offense rating; Dower 21.6 percent of possessions, 129.5 offense rating; Bell 18.0 percent of possessions, 134.8 offense rating."

Thanks for the research Vinny, eye opening, and much appreciated !!

gamagin
01-18-2014, 11:43 AM
yeah, sure


Although I feel DS is the last person to critique a teammate's offensive prowess; he of the dribble to the middle, flail to the side if no easy layup lane and then pass off and back away; I agree w your assessment and actually enjoy the "bumper car" analogy. Off the past few games I have become somewhat disenchanted with both GC and AN. I still think they should be road tested but hold no great hope either is the "answer." Play Edwards and Meikle more, that's my new mantra.

what does a quarterback know about his team ? Why would anyone listen to someone with actual knowledge. Especially when the choice is to blow him off and listen to some a$$wipe/expert who floats at least one theory a day (bonus: several on game days) and then spends the rest of the interim until the next game explaining/backpedaling/pining that what he did or didn't say, did or didn't mean, did or didn't say but meant, did or didn't mean, but said -- all in good humor, of course.

ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

gamagin
01-18-2014, 11:49 AM
Hoop:


The other tidbit I cannot get my arms around was against pepperdine we were exchanging basket for basket until these two players came in and we suddenly had consecutive stops allowing us to put distance between us and waves.....

which "two players" you referring to ? The spark, imo, began when the team with all five players knowing what to do and did it for essentially the rest of the half, entered the game. No ? Tns.

Gonezagaga
01-18-2014, 11:58 AM
Just my 2 cents. What is exciting about having players like Angel and Gerard on the team is that they bring skills that most of the other players do not. What is frustrating is that they don't know when to use them.

Look, Gonzaga is almost always in or near the top 10 in offensive efficiency. When GU has the most trouble, though, is at the end of the shot clock or at least late in shot clock situations because they have not had kids that could create their own shots.

I feel that AN and GC could really, REALLY help their own causes if they would play in the system for the first 20 seconds of the shot clock. The system is incredibly efficient and there would be shots for them in it. But with 28 seconds on the shot clock they do not need to be driving into the key against 2 and sometimes 3 players trying to make that "athletic" play. That is something that could be used at END of shot clock situations.

jazzdelmar
01-18-2014, 12:11 PM
yeah, sure



what does a quarterback know about his team ? Why would anyone listen to someone with actual knowledge. Especially when the choice is to blow him off and listen to some a$$wipe/expert who floats at least one theory a day (bonus: several on game days) and then spends the rest of the interim until the next game explaining/backpedaling/pining that what he did or didn't say, did or didn't mean, did or didn't say but meant, did or didn't mean, but said -- all in good humor, of course.

ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

If accurate, that was a snarky comment by the "quarterback" about a teammate. Something you know a lot about. Why don't you, Vandal and Barf create your own see no evil, hear no evil, etc. board, safely away from we rabble. Or you can call it the Three Stooges Board. Whatever.

jim77
01-18-2014, 12:26 PM
You'd think we were 3-15 by these posts. Despite our experience level....we stll have A LOT of new pieces to the puzzle. I think the best thing for Few to do is what he is doing. Which is, inject a new guy into a lineup that has other experienced guys. You can See Coleman is learning and Nunez will get better too. Despite our injuries/sicknesses we are in good shape....which says a lot about the players character. Guys with not a lot of experience have stepped up and played well....and the vets have gutted it out and played hurt. I still think this team can get better and I think they will.....to me our "ATHLETIC QUOTION" is pretty darn good. I also don't see any dominate teams out there...the Zags could pull another 99.....we do have the talent to do it.

I don't base anything on past tourney performances because history isn't binding or shouldn't be. Past performances don't predict future successes wether good or bad....the TEAM will determine that. This is a dangerous Team.


About the only thing I'd do different than Few is play a little less 3 guard lineup...to me we need to emphasize our BIGS more. I'd like to see a Shem...Dower....Nunez....F-F-C.......3some........we could even sub out Coleman for Nunez for 3 gurds instead of 2..... My observation is teams have problems with our size. I also have confidence in Miekle...Edwards...and of course Barham needs to get his minutes.....we do not have a depth problem anymore for our bigs. Coleman may very well show what he can do on "D" today against Ireland...and yes I think Gerard can make Anthony have a bad day. I'm darn glad we have AN and GC.....these guys will "get it" and may very well be a "BIG" part of a deep run come March.

Ekrub
01-18-2014, 12:34 PM
+1 on above.

Nunez has played like a human bumper car in the last 2 games. What was David Stockton's quote again? Coleman's signature move is "start at the right elbow and go left for a layup". Every coach now knows his tendencies (left hand). What at first looked exciting, athletic, borderline unstoppable is now fairly predictable. Hitting only 50% of your FT's is not helping either. IMO, both these guys get more PT by improving on defense, esp Nunez. AN needs to concentrate on "D" and let the rest of the game come to him and not force things so much. GC has to hit 80% on his FT's with his style of play to be a more effective weapon.

I must have missed it, what did Stockton say?

Zippyzaggy
01-18-2014, 12:47 PM
You'd think we were 3-15 by these posts. Despite our experience level....we stll have A LOT of new pieces to the puzzle. I think the best thing for Few to do is what he is doing. Which is, inject a new guy into a lineup that has other experienced guys. You can See Coleman is learning and Nunez will get better too. Despite our injuries/sicknesses we are in good shape....which says a lot about the players character. Guys with not a lot of experience have stepped up and played well....and the vets have gutted it out and played hurt. I still think this team can get better and I think they will.....to me our "ATHLETIC QUOTION" is pretty darn good. I also don't see any dominate teams out there...the Zags could pull another 99.....we do have the talent to do it.

I don't base anything on past tourney performances because history isn't binding or shouldn't be. Past performances don't predict future successes wether good or bad....the TEAM will determine that. This is a dangerous Team.
About the only thing I'd do different than Few is play a little less 3 guard lineup...to me we need to emphasize our BIGS more. I'd like to see a Shem...Dower....Nunez....F-F-C.......3some........we could even sub out Coleman for Nunez for 3 gurds instead of 2..... My observation is teams have problems with our size. I also have confidence in Miekle...Edwards...and of course Barham needs to get his minutes.....we do not have a depth problem anymore for our bigs.

The only "danger" I see with this team -this year- is the possible discontent of GC & AN creating divisiveness within the team. When you finally get some, and score big, you expect you'll be getting more of same. Not polishing the bench.

No worries about transferring though, as mentioned earlier. Few has them by the ballz, and is on record of saying something to the effect that it's nice to get em after they transfer because they will have to conform, ie, do it the Fewie way. Although AN & GC are starting to sense trouble they have been lead down the primrose path and feel that at least next year they will be utilized fairly. Next year might never come.

Just ask Marquise Carter.

Anyways, time to watch the Zags roll it up on LMU.

bballbeachbum
01-18-2014, 01:00 PM
maybe we shouldn't roll both GC and AN up into the same analysis? different situations to me. GC stumbled last time out a bit but has generally evolved to fit better. AN still mainly a physical specimen out there without the fitting in part seems to me

I can see GC with more minutes because he's adapting. AN needs to start showing that more.

all that said, I expect both of them to play well vs. Memphis in a game style that better suits them both. we'll see

jagwalkley
01-18-2014, 01:11 PM
It is Fews system. Skill and athleticism is secondary to running his system. Imagine if his system incorporated athleticism and more defensive focus?

you can sure "hit the nail on the head".

BTB
01-18-2014, 01:40 PM
This is such a crazy thread! I have literally seen nothing to make me think that Few should be playing them more. If they are playing and practicing well then they will get more playing time! They do not need more playing time, they need practice to develop their skills and mentality. If they start developing their games (which Coleman is definitely starting to do) they will get playing time! Until then we will continue to play our players that give us the best chance to win. I don't see why that's hard to understand! Sure they have potential, but potential doesn't win games and you don't realize your potential by playing games; you reach it by practicing.

Oregonzagnut
01-18-2014, 01:54 PM
you can sure "hit the nail on the head".

I wanted to clarify that I don't think Few DOESN'T incorporate athleticism and defense at all, but his system doesn't promote or accommodate the unique abilities the players have to seriously improve our program as an athletically elite defensive power. I think the level of athleticism and skill that Few has access to with better recruits and transfers is not utilized to the fullest potential because the system is very specialized towards conservative and rigid play management.

The regular season is where Few really shines. But the way Few is, he actually gets MORE conservative in the Dance and that detracts from the needed boost in chemistry on the court during the game. Few has led and taught them all year during the regular season preparation for the Big Dance. Few shouldn't bird-dog the team while they are performing during the main event. Imagine as a teen if your dad had taught you how do rive all year and you were really good. But then he demanded to sit in the back seat while you took the test.

Few needs to get rid of the leash in the tournament, if we make it this year.

Oregonzagnut
01-18-2014, 02:15 PM
This is such a crazy thread! I have literally seen nothing to make me think that Few should be playing them more. If they are playing and practicing well then they will get more playing time! They do not need more playing time, they need practice to develop their skills and mentality. If they start developing their games (which Coleman is definitely starting to do) they will get playing time! Until then we will continue to play our players that give us the best chance to win. I don't see why that's hard to understand! Sure they have potential, but potential doesn't win games and you don't realize your potential by playing games; you reach it by practicing.

I agree with your statement except the last part in bold. I think games are where potential is realized and measured. Games determine what goes on in practice. Games matter more IMO. In practice you play the same people all the time. It is so limiting that it is merely personal and team development. But when you put that practice to the test, you measure everything and that is what matters to everyone. Also some elevate during games others do not due to stage fright.

If Few runs his team with a defensive mindset, I actually think Stockton should start. The way our team ran during the game especially on transition defense is specifically suited to Stocktons game. Most of my desire to see Nunez and Coleman start n place of DS is that Gonzaga needs that athleticism and length during the tournament (if we make it this year). And I think you ignore the huge test and development that happens during real games with real opponents.

In live theatre, imagine if practice is the only thing that matters, then the show wouldn't matter at all.

If practice is more important than the games, I think it is a "Which came first, the Chicken or the egg" argument. IMO, first the game was played, then they practiced to win more games. Games are the most important, practice build players but games push them further than practices ever can.

BTB
01-18-2014, 03:20 PM
I agree with your statement except the last part in bold. I think games are where potential is realized and measured. Games determine what goes on in practice. Games matter more IMO. In practice you play the same people all the time. It is so limiting that it is merely personal and team development. But when you put that practice to the test, you measure everything and that is what matters to everyone. Also some elevate during games others do not due to stage fright.

If Few runs his team with a defensive mindset, I actually think Stockton should start. The way our team ran during the game especially on transition defense is specifically suited to Stocktons game. Most of my desire to see Nunez and Coleman start n place of DS is that Gonzaga needs that athleticism and length during the tournament (if we make it this year). And I think you ignore the huge test and development that happens during real games with real opponents.

In live theatre, imagine if practice is the only thing that matters, then the show wouldn't matter at all.

If practice is more important than the games, I think it is a "Which came first, the Chicken or the egg" argument. IMO, first the game was played, then they practiced to win more games. Games are the most important, practice build players but games push them further than practices ever can.

I agree for the most part, maybe I should have rephrased what I said. Of course the games are more important, what I meant was that both players have specific things that they need to practice to take their games to the level that they could be at. Nunez needs a lot of ball handling improvement (as does Gerard) and Gerard needs to work on his shot. Both of them need to spend a lot of time looking at film so that they can understand the team concept better. Practice is where they develop these skills, but the game is where they tie them all together.

ZagaZags
01-18-2014, 03:36 PM
If accurate, that was a snarky comment by the "quarterback" about a teammate. Something you know a lot about. Why don't you, Vandal and Barf create your own see no evil, hear no evil, etc. board, safely away from we rabble. Or you can call it the Three Stooges Board. Whatever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4ZgVRJ-H8U

WallaWallaZag
01-18-2014, 03:45 PM
If Few runs his team with a defensive mindset, I actually think Stockton should start. The way our team ran during the game especially on transition defense is specifically suited to Stocktons game. Most of my desire to see Nunez and Coleman start n place of DS is that Gonzaga needs that athleticism and length during the tournament (if we make it this year).

don't agree on this one...stockton is horrible defensively except for the steals he gets on help d...he's pretty good about anticipating that. him and pangos shouldn't be in at the same time, especially in a game where pangos is off. payne absolutely abused stockton several times and got others in foul trouble because they had to come help. stockton is such a defensive liability that dranginis had to guard ireland...a shift which puts stockton and pangos into mismatches if both are in.

Mantua
01-18-2014, 03:58 PM
don't agree on this one...stockton is horrible defensively except for the steals he gets on help d...he's pretty good about anticipating that. him and pangos shouldn't be in at the same time, especially in a game where pangos is off. payne absolutely abused stockton several times and got others in foul trouble because they had to come help. stockton is such a defensive liability that dranginis had to guard ireland...a shift which puts stockton and pangos into mismatches if both are in.

I agree. That's what I saw. I thought some subbing would be worth the gamble.

Shanachie
01-18-2014, 04:00 PM
...We are stagnant and have been for years...

... This business of a gaudy record only to be mugged in the NCAA..........and then embarrassed. Not good. SO if we're far ahead why not see what others might do?
DO you all really think Few kept that 5-6 in because he wanted some practice running his sets? I think the reason AN and GC are the two points of focus because they show the big time potential that might help us to move on. One and done is our new calling card. We all hate that.
...

I guess it's a matter of perspective, but stagnant for years? You do remember last year, right? 32-3, school record for wins, undefeated in conference and conference tourney (first time since '09), first ever AP #1 ranking, and first ever #1 seed. I guess you could argue that none of that matters, and that the NCAA tourney is everything, but that sure sounds like a recipe for disappointment to me (regardless of who the coach is).

And for the record, the Zags haven't been one and done in the NCAA tourney since 2008.

Zagsker
01-18-2014, 04:10 PM
Some of you crack me up

One's personal analysis of the team does not equate to "fire Few" or "we suck...yadda yadda yadda."

surfmonkey89
01-18-2014, 04:32 PM
I guess it's a matter of perspective, but stagnant for years? You do remember last year, right? 32-3, school record for wins, undefeated in conference and conference tourney (first time since '09), first ever AP #1 ranking, and first ever #1 seed. I guess you could argue that none of that matters, and that the NCAA tourney is everything, but that sure sounds like a recipe for disappointment to me (regardless of who the coach is).

And for the record, the Zags haven't been one and done in the NCAA tourney since 2008.

I *think* he means "one win, then bounced" when he says one and done. If not, I agree with you. :)

BTW, Meech's coast-to-coast against WKU and Adam's last year are the only times we've made it to the Sweet 16 since 2001. Yup, twice in the last 13yrs.

zag67
01-18-2014, 05:02 PM
This is one that I have stayed out of, but I would like to say one thing. First last year was a great year and we should be proud. Since 2001, we have been in every NCAA tournament and we have been one of the last 32 teams alive, "every year" and twice been in the final 16. We have had at least 3 heartbreaking losses that would have taken us further. Yes, we are playing in a weaker league than many teams, but our record is something all of us should be proud of. I do not think that you can find over five teams that say they have done that consistent record for 12 years (and I do not even know who they would be, but I assume there are some). So we are saying we are in the top of all basketball teams and have never had a top 25 recruiting class. That says a lot about our recruiting and our player development. Go Zags.

surfmonkey89
01-18-2014, 05:23 PM
This is one that I have stayed out of, but I would like to say one thing. First last year was a great year and we should be proud. Since 2001, we have been in every NCAA tournament and we have been one of the last 32 teams alive, "every year" and twice been in the final 16. We have had at least 3 heartbreaking losses that would have taken us further. Yes, we are playing in a weaker league than many teams, but our record is something all of us should be proud of. I do not think that you can find over five teams that say they have done that consistent record for 12 years (and I do not even know who they would be, but I assume there are some). So we are saying we are in the top of all basketball teams and have never had a top 25 recruiting class. That says a lot about our recruiting and our player development. Go Zags.

I wasn't implying otherwise. If your expectations are to get to the tournament every year, hopefully win the first game and then chalk up losing the second to random circumstance, then congratulations: you are on the exact same page as the head coach.

Vanzagger
01-18-2014, 05:32 PM
welcome back surf. You had some funny stuff last year. We need that around here. I can't even say I expect the team to go far this year without someone taking it personal. And I do expect them to go far.

Mantua
01-18-2014, 05:37 PM
This is one that I have stayed out of, but I would like to say one thing. First last year was a great year and we should be proud. Since 2001, we have been in every NCAA tournament and we have been one of the last 32 teams alive, "every year" and twice been in the final 16. We have had at least 3 heartbreaking losses that would have taken us further. Yes, we are playing in a weaker league than many teams, but our record is something all of us should be proud of. I do not think that you can find over five teams that say they have done that consistent record for 12 years (and I do not even know who they would be, but I assume there are some). So we are saying we are in the top of all basketball teams and have never had a top 25 recruiting class. That says a lot about our recruiting and our player development. Go Zags.

GU has done well coming from an average to weak conference, getting some astonishingly good recruits and establishing a respectable consistent NCAA presence.

In some way the tension is between complacency with the Zag's accomplishments and passion to keep driving forwarding to fulfill the potential many see, especially concerning player development. I'm one who agrees wholeheartedly with MDABE that more attention needs to be paid to player development and that playing time is essential to develop new talent. I'm not satisfied with what I'm seeing this season. The Zags can be much better.

surfmonkey89
01-18-2014, 05:51 PM
welcome back surf. You had some funny stuff last year. We need that around here. I can't even say I expect the team to go far this year without someone taking it personal. And I do expect them to go far.

Thanks. To be honest, losing to WSU in March took so much out of me that I wasn't able to come back here until now. On a "positive" note, I think that loss reset my expectations to something much more rational, and it's way more relaxing :)

Vanzagger
01-18-2014, 05:55 PM
Right on. Well enjoy the ride. It's gonna be fun.

Oregonzagnut
01-18-2014, 06:12 PM
don't agree on this one...stockton is horrible defensively except for the steals he gets on help d...he's pretty good about anticipating that. him and pangos shouldn't be in at the same time, especially in a game where pangos is off. payne absolutely abused stockton several times and got others in foul trouble because they had to come help. stockton is such a defensive liability that dranginis had to guard ireland...a shift which puts stockton and pangos into mismatches if both are in.

Jeewiz. I was trying to give Few some credit for keeping him as a starter. If Stockton is a liability on defense AND on offense, then all we are left with is that DS one of those guys you sum up with "intangibles". I still believe that our transition defense has shown to be a game changer. And that is one way in which I see Stockton as an asset. however limited that is.

When I argued that Stockton should NOT start, then the wolves start circling around anyone who questions Few's choices. Yet NO ONE has come up with a solid reason to give stockton so many minutes, let alone starting the game right along with Pangos. So when I entertain a situation where Stockton may be a good choice to start, I have drawn out from others that there is really NO good reason to start stockton.

MDABE80
01-18-2014, 06:26 PM
I guess it's a matter of perspective, but stagnant for years? You do remember last year, right? 32-3, school record for wins, undefeated in conference and conference tourney (first time since '09), first ever AP #1 ranking, and first ever #1 seed. I guess you could argue that none of that matters, and that the NCAA tourney is everything, but that sure sounds like a recipe for disappointment to me (regardless of who the coach is).

And for the record, the Zags haven't been one and done in the NCAA tourney since 2008.

I also remember struggling like H*ll against a mediocre team too in round one. then we were done.
It goes like this too many time. That's my point one and done. It's become normal for us. We can do better but we're need better players to get to the next level. And then we have to use them. We have tht situation . No offense but it's pretty obvious.
That's the point of the thred. COleman did as well as he could today. Nunez looked great but he needs more floor time.

crazycanadian04
01-18-2014, 08:12 PM
Handling of Coleman and Nunez shows why Few will never reach a Final Four...

Oregonzagnut
01-18-2014, 08:23 PM
Handling of Coleman and Nunez shows why Few will never reach a Final Four...

I disagree, only because I cannot fathom that Few does not see the correlation between defense and winning. I have to think Few is seeing results that support not benching so quickly and for so long. I also cannot fathom that Few is so prideful that he does not want to learn anymore and improve himself to be the best coach he can be. When we have the athletic and long players like we do on the bench, we increase our chances of winning especially in March where we go up against power schools who have these type of teams.

I would love to see, just for one game (maybe even in the Dance), where Few told the guys to "Do whatever you want and play as hard as you can with the substitutions I give you. I want to see the best you got as players and coach."

Or maybe it would be a disaster? somehow I doubt it. Maybe early in the season, but not in March.

GPGUgrad
01-18-2014, 08:29 PM
Handling of Coleman and Nunez shows why Few will never reach a Final Four...

Didn't we see Angel and Coleman play today?

Shoot, maybe I spaced out and was dreaming that they were playing.
I need to rewatch the game again.


What more do you guys want?

Yeah, I know a Final Four or NC.

ZagHouse
01-18-2014, 08:42 PM
Love Gerard and Angel as athletes and the potential they show, but to say the team should abandon its sets on offense and schemes on defense in order accommodate these two is a bit ridiculous. If I have five players on the court and four of them are playing within the context of the offense and one decides that he's going to deviate from said plan because 1) he hasn't learned the system, or 2) is unwilling to, what's that tell the other four? Athletes are great, but both those boys think they can drive to the hoop every time they touch the ball. It's akin to some NBA teams. The other players stop moving because...why bother. Gerard is getting better and Angel is still learning...but he just played his first game a month ago. We're not even halfway through conference play. Both will play more as the season progresses. They'll be better come March and The team I think too.

gonwick
01-18-2014, 09:17 PM
Love Gerard and Angel as athletes and the potential they show, but to say the team should abandon its sets on offense and schemes on defense in order accommodate these two is a bit ridiculous. If I have five players on the court and four of them are playing within the context of the offense and one decides that he's going to deviate from said plan because 1) he hasn't learned the system, or 2) is unwilling to, what's that tell the other four? Athletes are great, but both those boys think they can drive to the hoop every time they touch the ball. It's akin to some NBA teams. The other players stop moving because...why bother. Gerard is getting better and Angel is still learning...but he just played his first game a month ago. We're not even halfway through conference play. Both will play more as the season progresses. They'll be better come March and The team I think too.

I wouldn't expect few to abandon sets. I would, however, expect him to coach players. So let's say that they went off script in the first half. At halftime, I would talk to them and set a plan. Pass before you drive. Don't commit a turnover. Whatever the goal is. Then, in a massive blowout, play them before garbage time and, if they screw up, pull them as arranged. Not playing them after the half at Pepperdine stunts development. I wonder if limited playing time contributes to the tendencies we see, as well. They seem to be forcing it. For a million dollars, a coach should be able to figure out a way to teach. Unless they are simply uncoachable, in which case their addition was an unwise decision by few.

By the way, I would appreciate it if someone could find the full quote from Stockton on Gerard. The snippet quoted in this thread is not something I would expect a player to say of a teammate.

ZagHouse
01-18-2014, 09:34 PM
I agree to a point, in that I'm not privy to the coaching points that are being made. If it were just Few on an island with Gerard and Angel and he still had the rest of the players to deal with...but he has a staff of coaches that are most likely heavily involved in making sure those two get up to speed. We've seen improvement with Gerard already, but is garbage time what he needs? I was mad at the SF game that Few didn't put in subs til late in the game and I was frustrated the other night as well. I guess I'm trying to play devil's advocate and try and explain away some of the head scratching decisions. Go Hawks.

gonwick
01-18-2014, 09:52 PM
Reasonable thought. I wish we had more insight into the program. The mark few show is fluff and the media rarely asks interesting questions. Maybe he tells them they won't play the second half if they screw up the first. I don't know either, but I would hope for something more logical than what we've seen as outsiders.

BTB
01-18-2014, 10:05 PM
I wouldn't expect few to abandon sets. I would, however, expect him to coach players. So let's say that they went off script in the first half. At halftime, I would talk to them and set a plan. Pass before you drive. Don't commit a turnover. Whatever the goal is. Then, in a massive blowout, play them before garbage time and, if they screw up, pull them as arranged. Not playing them after the half at Pepperdine stunts development. I wonder if limited playing time contributes to the tendencies we see, as well. They seem to be forcing it. For a million dollars, a coach should be able to figure out a way to teach. Unless they are simply uncoachable, in which case their addition was an unwise decision by few.

By the way, I would appreciate it if someone could find the full quote from Stockton on Gerard. The snippet quoted in this thread is not something I would expect a player to say of a teammate.

So they play out of control BECAUSE of their limited playing time now? And Few doesn't even coach them or give them plans now?

How about this: Few coaches them every single day and gives them a plan every single practice and before every single game. They consistently are being taught to do something and for the most part aren't able to do it so they are pulled from the game. It's hard for me to imagine a situation where Coach K or Izzo would ever play a player who isn't playing the way they are asked too. And not being able to immediately grasp the coaches concept does not make a player uncoachable and a bad addition to the team. You act like it's easy to be told something and immediately be able to go out and do it. It can take several months to years to learn a specific system and multiple fine aspects of any sport. These two will get there.

zag67
01-18-2014, 10:05 PM
I think that you have multiple things going on at the same time. First I think that we are seeing major improvements in Gerard in the last few weeks. Each game he is showing that he is understanding more about the defensive sets and also more on the sets on the. Offensive end. Also I think that they are working very hard with Nunez in the same way. But they have a longer way to go since he really has no game experience at a college level. They are giving him time in the first half while the game is still on the line and in the long hall that will help him. He has great athletic skill, but is still learning how to use it at both ends of the court.

Also the coaches need to win and at the same time work on the skills of the players that are going to be needed to get to the dance. They need to play together to learn how to attack and break the full court press and also run the offense to use lock. Yes this is not fun to watch at times, but I think it will be needed before the end of the year. Also I think that the coaches are doing a fantastic job in getting all of them to play a super defense.

gonwick
01-18-2014, 10:18 PM
So they play out of control BECAUSE of their limited playing time now? And Few doesn't even coach them or give them plans now?

How about this: Few coaches them every single day and gives them a plan every single practice and before every single game. They consistently are being taught to do something and for the most part aren't able to do it so they are pulled from the game. It's hard for me to imagine a situation where Coach K or Izzo would ever play a player who isn't playing the way they are asked too. And not being able to immediately grasp the coaches concept does not make a player uncoachable and a bad addition to the team. You act like it's easy to be told something and immediately be able to go out and do it. It can take several months to years to learn a specific system and multiple fine aspects of any sport. These two will get there.

I was postulating that less playing time might make a player press to do more with the time he is on the court. Not stating it as fact.

Gerard has been with the team 1.5 years. AN has been here over a year. I'm saying that if they aren't to the point where few feels like he can offer them half time adjustments and put them back in to see if they can adapt, then that is worrisome. Or maybe few isn't bothering to make half time adjustments and that is even more worrisome. Either they aren't learning what he's teaching or he is not teaching effectively. I'm not sure how these guys will get to significant contributing roles without first getting a chance to play insignificant contributing roles in real games.

I'm also confused by how meikle and Edwards are used, but don't worry much as at least one appears destined for redshirt next year.

Zagceo
01-18-2014, 10:24 PM
I think that you have multiple things going on at the same time. First I think that we are seeing major improvements in Gerard in the last few weeks. Each game he is showing that he is understanding more about the defensive sets and also more on the sets on the. Offensive end. Also I think that they are working very hard with Nunez in the same way. But they have a longer way to go since he really has no game experience at a college level. They are giving him time in the first half while the game is still on the line and in the long hall that will help him. He has great athletic skill, but is still learning how to use it at both ends of the court.

Also the coaches need to win and at the same time work on the skills of the players that are going to be needed to get to the dance. They need to play together to learn how to attack and break the full court press and also run the offense to use lock. Yes this is not fun to watch at times, but I think it will be needed before the end of the year. Also I think that the coaches are doing a fantastic job in getting all of them to play a super defense.

OK zag67 are really Coach Few?

These are words I could image coming from the lips of Coach Few behind closed doors.

crazycanadian04
01-18-2014, 11:00 PM
Here is a way to differentiate between teams come March Madness: 1. Which team has the most players that can create a good shot or play on their own? 2. Which team can do the better job of controlling dribble penetration? Both of these questions show the importance of making Coleman and Nunez a consistent part of the attack. Here is the other key idea: the two big attack is Fools' Gold, with playing Dower and Karno together. It will work a lot of nights in the Weak Coast Conference, but it will fail in the Dance. Teams will destroy that lineup with pick and rolls and dribble penetration. What was the best stretch the Zags have played this year? The homestand, when Dower's injury forced them to play 4 around one big. Mark Few refuses to adjust... Coach K, Izzo, etc., they coach their teams all year with the mindset of maxing out their personnel come March. I have no clue what Few is doing this year.

crazycanadian04
01-18-2014, 11:07 PM
When Q Hall, Santangelo, and Frahm could all break down the defense...

Oregonzagnut
01-18-2014, 11:36 PM
When Q Hall, Santangelo, and Frahm could all break down the defense...

I'd have to say the best tournament team for sure. Our 2012/13 team probably was the best and most overall skilled and athletic IMO. Our 2005-06 team was probably the most skilled with Morrison. But the fact Wichita St was peaking then and has CONTINUED that peak level of play, gives me solace that Gonzaga is improving overall EVERY year. This means Few is learning how to better prepare for post-season and perform during the tournament.

demian
01-18-2014, 11:42 PM
I wouldn't expect few to abandon sets. I would, however, expect him to coach players. So let's say that they went off script in the first half. At halftime, I would talk to them and set a plan. Pass before you drive. Don't commit a turnover. Whatever the goal is. Then, in a massive blowout, play them before garbage time and, if they screw up, pull them as arranged. Not playing them after the half at Pepperdine stunts development. I wonder if limited playing time contributes to the tendencies we see, as well. They seem to be forcing it. For a million dollars, a coach should be able to figure out a way to teach. Unless they are simply uncoachable, in which case their addition was an unwise decision by few.

By the way, I would appreciate it if someone could find the full quote from Stockton on Gerard. The snippet quoted in this thread is not something I would expect a player to say of a teammate.

great post gonwick, especially your last sentence

Baseline
01-19-2014, 12:38 AM
I think AN and GC are great Athletes in a great system. Their job though is to fit into said system. I think GC is adapting pretty well, its just hard not to keep driving when you think you can beat your man. I believe he is close to making that transition. Any smart player knows you do what the coach wants - he will get there.

AN is a bit earlier in his integration. I would like few to develop a few plays especially for him, that might be a good way to get him going.

Saxon_zag
01-19-2014, 03:41 AM
The team was playing best and going on runs against LMU with Gerard and Angel in at the same time for a stretch. With Pangos, Dower, and I believe Draginis. Baffling to me as it has been as year. As long as Few keeps over using the crap out of Stockton (instead of the 8-12 mins a game he should get to REST PANGOS) in all situations, it's going to be hard for both of these guys to see consistent minutes game by game.... Seriously does anyone not on the zags coaching staff think Pangos and STockton on the floor at the same time is a good idea? :explode::explode:

Birddog
01-19-2014, 04:54 AM
By the way, I would appreciate it if someone could find the full quote from Stockton on Gerard. The snippet quoted in this thread is not something I would expect a player to say of a teammate.

Did you mean re Nunez? If so here you go....

From a Meehan article back in December.

“It gives us an extra five fouls. It really ups our athleticism and makes us look a little better in the airport,” point guard David Stockton said of Nunez. “You look at him and see the length and size and he’s just an impressive figure. When that translates on the court it’s pretty nice.”

Zagger
01-19-2014, 06:16 AM
I think that you have multiple things going on at the same time. First I think that we are seeing major improvements in Gerard in the last few weeks. Each game he is showing that he is understanding more about the defensive sets and also more on the sets on the. Offensive end. Also I think that they are working very hard with Nunez in the same way. But they have a longer way to go since he really has no game experience at a college level. They are giving him time in the first half while the game is still on the line and in the long hall that will help him. He has great athletic skill, but is still learning how to use it at both ends of the court.

Also the coaches need to win and at the same time work on the skills of the players that are going to be needed to get to the dance. They need to play together to learn how to attack and break the full court press and also run the offense to use lock. Yes this is not fun to watch at times, but I think it will be needed before the end of the year. Also I think that the coaches are doing a fantastic job in getting all of them to play a super defense.

Well put!

gonwick
01-19-2014, 07:07 AM
Did you mean re Nunez? If so here you go....

From a Meehan article back in December.

No, although that quote also struck me as something a player wouldn't typically say about his teammate. Earlier in this thread, DS was cited as saying somehing about gc only ever driving from the elbow (i.e. always using the same move) but I never saw the full quote. Although even just based on this old quote about angel, it seems DS is in need of some media training.

WallaWallaZag
01-19-2014, 07:20 AM
The team was playing best and going on runs against LMU with Gerard and Angel in at the same time for a stretch. With Pangos, Dower, and I believe Draginis. Baffling to me as it has been as year. As long as Few keeps over using the crap out of Stockton (instead of the 8-12 mins a game he should get to REST PANGOS) in all situations, it's going to be hard for both of these guys to see consistent minutes game by game.... Seriously does anyone not on the zags coaching staff think Pangos and STockton on the floor at the same time is a good idea? :explode::explode:

i don't like stockton and pangos together either, especially if pangos isn't shooting well, but i can understand it in a game where the zags are dominating inside with dower and karnowski... look, neither coleman or nunez knows how to feed the post properly and considering that was the zags bread & butter against lmu i can understand the need for stockton in this game. i probably would have benched pangos in this one as crazy as it sounds.

jazzdelmar
01-19-2014, 07:38 AM
i don't like stockton and pangos together either, especially if pangos isn't shooting well, but i can understand it in a game where the zags are dominating inside with dower and karnowski... look, neither coleman or nunez knows how to feed the post properly and considering that was the zags bread & butter against lmu i can understand the need for stockton in this game. i probably would have benched pangos in this one as crazy as it sounds.

for a couple of key mins in the 2d half stocks did replace kp who sat and did an admirable job of feeding the post. thats ds' forte, spot playmaking, not 35 mins a game displacing others who can shoot and defend better.

WallaWallaZag
01-19-2014, 08:06 AM
for a couple of key mins in the 2d half stocks did replace kp who sat and did an admirable job of feeding the post. thats ds' forte, spot playmaking, not 35 mins a game displacing others who can shoot and defend better.

he only played 21 against lmu, which i think is about right...unfortunately i think that had as much to do with foul trouble as mark few's decision making.

gamagin
01-19-2014, 09:23 AM
IF


for a couple of key mins in the 2d half stocks did replace kp who sat and did an admirable job of feeding the post. thats ds' forte, spot playmaking, not 35 mins a game displacing others who can shoot and defend better.

If someone needed to take a seat in the pep game it was KP. I give him a pass on the toe vs. Ireland, but he couldn't get shots to drop either.

If your favorite target played that poorly you'd be peddling your crap 8 days a week, not just the mere 7. Popping blood vessels in the process. And your 2-3 followers would be braying, too. Sleepless for a month.

"Only" feeding the post, and every one else who was open, at the right time and in order to make the team better, is what a p.g. does.

Assuming, as you and others do, that GB or KP could/should/must be the better p.g. choice, where would this team be, in reality & given the injuries, without DS ?

No defense ? Check the steals. Disruptions . Hustles & fouls? Watch the game. W.t.f. Are you talking about ? Are you watching all those loose balls ? Who seems to have a hand in there most of the time ? Who tries to cover for his teammates as well ?

He's doing more than his share. Disruptive menace? Look beyond your stigma ? Get the crap out of your eyes

DS seems to keep performing, given the roller coaster we're on, better, more consistently, than anyone. He'd have 6-8 more assists, v. Pepp, for e.g., if PK & SD had made half their lay ins early on. We should have been up 12 in the first 5 minutes, too.

Won't see that on the stat sheet. Anyone watching would have noticed. So how did those bunnies get to those bigs? You want to bench him for shooters? Amazing. Take out the q,b. Because the receivers aren't catching their passes. And the backup q.b.'s are game but battling their own issues. Brilliant.

Since you have endless time to coach this team, I'd like to know What is it you do that contributes anything except a poorly fashioned, outdated, incorrect, weak minded, strong willed thesis that doesn't hold water nor shed light ? IF IF IF is where you live. IF KP were healthy. IF GBj weren't injured. IF KP is having a bad game and Injured ( v. Pepp). IF ANYONE but DS could get more p.t., more attention, time. Shoot. Shoot. Shoot. The rest will take care of itself. Somehow.

The perennial.100 analyst still barking at a cloud and trying to steer the .800 coach.

How about this: IF DS weren't out there most of the time, we'd be in a world of hurt. In a perfect world, suspending ALL reality, THEN maybe DS should be seated while a shooter is put on the floor to change up the game. Except shooters, by nature, will not suddenly become ball handlers and passers, eschewing their shot and moving it to the guy who is more open. Over and over. That's why we have a p.g. And damned lucky to have one of the best, heading soon into the GU record books. For a reason that does not deserve the constant pecking from a professional coq.

Minimizing this excellent athlete & contributor, even when and while 3 other starters are struggling, while the bigs & KP are having average or below average games, our big is adjusting to his role, our sleek, new Zags are getting their legs & our system under control, our future starters, are adjusting and blah blah blah. What we STILL need, what you woke up to offers as your coaching tip du jour, is to cut the presence and p.t. Of the only increasingly consistent, reliable, & healthiest guard we have. Ignoring that this same guy was a starter when all three guards were healthy. Either way, the what we need to do is just sit the last one. Too short. Too Ty something.

And put in someone with half to 1/3rd of the savvy, skill and iq to see and play the entire field.

Right. Rinse. Repeat.

BULLDOG#1
01-19-2014, 09:25 AM
he only played 21 against lmu, which i think is about right...unfortunately i think that had as much to do with foul trouble as mark few's decision making.

I posted on this thread that GC and AN wouldn't get more minutes until they made better in-game decisions. BUT... I have to say after watching Coleman against LMU, it's going to be hard to keep him on the pine. He sliced and diced LMU so effectively in the first half, I would have taken Stockton's second half minutes and given them to him. That's the area where Coleman can really help this team,--giving them the wing that can break down the defense with the drive. He can take over games that turn play-ground -- If he could reign it in, just enough to limit TO's and improve defensively (i.e. not so many risks), then we're looking at Stacy Augman jr.

Just bad luck for Coleman that KD and DB had stellar games, too. KD was just awesome on mighty mouse and DB hit clutch shots. I don't think we'd have won without either of their performances (or Dower). But lost in the whole mix is how important Coleman's offense was in the first half...

gamagin
01-19-2014, 10:12 AM
+1

I posted on this thread that GC and AN wouldn't get more minutes until they made better in-game decisions. BUT... I have to say after watching Coleman against LMU, it's going to be hard to keep him on the pine. He sliced and diced LMU so effectively in the first half, I would have taken Stockton's second half minutes and given them to him. That's the area where Coleman can really help this team,--giving them the wing that can break down the defense with the drive. He can take over games that turn play-ground -- If he could reign it in, just enough to limit TO's and improve defensively (i.e. not so many risks), then we're looking at Stacy Augman jr.

Just bad luck for Coleman that KD and DB had stellar games, too. KD was just awesome on mighty mouse and DB hit clutch shots. I don't think we'd have won without either of their performances (or Dower). But lost in the whole mix is how important Coleman's offense was in the first half...

Pepp. just may have been GC's breakout game.

willandi
01-19-2014, 10:13 AM
I think that EVERY college coach that hasn't been to the FF should be fired tomorrow!

Gosh, that sounds inane...oh, well. Right thread for it!

jazzdelmar
01-19-2014, 10:16 AM
IF



If someone needed to take a seat in the pep game it was KP. I give him a pass on the toe vs. Ireland, but he couldn't get shots to drop either.

If your favorite target played that poorly you'd be peddling your crap 8 days a week, not just the mere 7. Popping blood vessels in the process. And your 2-3 followers would be braying, too. Sleepless for a month.

"Only" feeding the post, and every one else who was open, at the right time and in order to make the team better, is what a p.g. does.

Assuming, as you and others do, that GB or KP could/should/must be the better p.g. choice, where would this team be, in reality & given the injuries, without DS ?

No defense ? Check the steals. Disruptions . Hustles & fouls? Watch the game. W.t.f. Are you talking about ? Are you watching all those loose balls ? Who seems to have a hand in there most of the time ? Who tries to cover for his teammates as well ?

He's doing more than his share. Disruptive menace? Look beyond your stigma ? Get the crap out of your eyes

DS seems to keep performing, given the roller coaster we're on, better, more consistently, than anyone. He'd have 6-8 more assists, v. Pepp, for e.g., if PK & SD had made half their lay ins early on. We should have been up 12 in the first 5 minutes, too.

Won't see that on the stat sheet. Anyone watching would have noticed. So how did those bunnies get to those bigs? You want to bench him for shooters? Amazing. Take out the q,b. Because the receivers aren't catching their passes. And the backup q.b.'s are game but battling their own issues. Brilliant.

Since you have endless time to coach this team, I'd like to know What is it you do that contributes anything except a poorly fashioned, outdated, incorrect, weak minded, strong willed thesis that doesn't hold water nor shed light ? IF IF IF is where you live. IF KP were healthy. IF GBj weren't injured. IF KP is having a bad game and Injured ( v. Pepp). IF ANYONE but DS could get more p.t., more attention, time. Shoot. Shoot. Shoot. The rest will take care of itself. Somehow.

The perennial.100 analyst still barking at a cloud and trying to steer the .800 coach.

How about this: IF DS weren't out there most of the time, we'd be in a world of hurt. In a perfect world, suspending ALL reality, THEN maybe DS should be seated while a shooter is put on the floor to change up the game. Except shooters, by nature, will not suddenly become ball handlers and passers, eschewing their shot and moving it to the guy who is more open. Over and over. That's why we have a p.g. And damned lucky to have one of the best, heading soon into the GU record books. For a reason that does not deserve the constant pecking from a professional coq.

Minimizing this excellent athlete & contributor, even when and while 3 other starters are struggling, while the bigs & KP are having average or below average games, our big is adjusting to his role, our sleek, new Zags are getting their legs & our system under control, our future starters, are adjusting and blah blah blah. What we STILL need, what you woke up to offers as your coaching tip du jour, is to cut the presence and p.t. Of the only increasingly consistent, reliable, & healthiest guard we have. Ignoring that this same guy was a starter when all three guards were healthy. Either way, the what we need to do is just sit the last one. Too short. Too Ty something.

And put in someone with half to 1/3rd of the savvy, skill and iq to see and play the entire field.

Right. Rinse. Repeat.


Is it possible for you to disagree with me like an intelligent, mature person without the personal attacks?

23dpg
01-19-2014, 10:31 AM
I am finally coming around to the DS bashers. Not only was he 1-11 last night, but he's 10-35 in his last three games. And Few never takes him out!!! Plus he's turning the ball over at a higher rate lately. Sure he's getting a few assists, but how hard is that with Dower and PK? I'm not even convinced he's that good with his basketball "handles". I hope Few will finally see the light.

Wait…….what? Oh, never mind.





PS. This is not a bash against KP. Just an observation on how this board unfairly piles on certain players.

bballbeachbum
01-19-2014, 10:32 AM
OK zag67 are really Coach Few?

These are words I could image coming from the lips of Coach Few behind closed doors.

think you'll find zag67 shoots a ridiculously high percentage on this board ;)

gamagin
01-19-2014, 10:34 AM
Yes

Is it possible for you to disagree with me like a relatively intelligent, mature person without the personal attacks?

It would be easy. It's up to you. i can dial it back just as soon as you begin to act/write like a "relatively intelligent, mature person without the personal attacks" on true blue Zags, like Few & DS to name two favorites,of yours, whom you know very little about and yet whom you chose to attack with reckless abandon.

GoZags
01-19-2014, 10:45 AM
Yes


It would be easy. It's up to you. i can dial it back just as soon as you begin to act/write like a "relatively intelligent, mature person without the personal attacks" on true blue Zags, like Few & DS to name two favorites,of yours, whom you know very little about and yet whom you chose to attack with reckless abandon.

Not every poster will agree with one another ...... that is a given. I don't agree with personal attacks on posters that you disagree with. I don't think it adds anything to the dialogue on this Board.

MDABE80
01-19-2014, 11:36 AM
Not every poster will agree with one another ...... that is a given. I don't agree with personal attacks on posters that you disagree with. I don't think it adds anything to the dialogue on this Board.

No it doesn't. I'd listen.

Zagsker
01-19-2014, 12:18 PM
Yes


It would be easy. It's up to you. i can dial it back just as soon as you begin to act/write like a "relatively intelligent, mature person without the personal attacks" on true blue Zags, like Few & DS to name two favorites,of yours, whom you know very little about and yet whom you chose to attack with reckless abandon.

Leave Brittney ALONE!!!!!!!

Birddog
01-19-2014, 12:33 PM
No, although that quote also struck me as something a player wouldn't typically say about his teammate. Earlier in this thread, DS was cited as saying somehing about gc only ever driving from the elbow (i.e. always using the same move) but I never saw the full quote. Although even just based on this old quote about angel, it seems DS is in need of some media training.
Your reading comprehension is suspect. That was me and what I said was that "his signature move is starting at the right elbow and driving left for a layup" or something close to that. I also said that that move has no doubt been noticed as a tendency by the opposition. To his credit, I don't think he did that one time vs LMU.
Do you think DS quote is disparaging? Why, I don't see it that way esp the end. AN was an unknown element in game situations at the time of the quote.

Vanzagger
01-19-2014, 01:05 PM
I am finally coming around to the DS bashers. Not only was he 1-11 last night, but he's 10-35 in his last three games. And Few never takes him out!!! Plus he's turning the ball over at a higher rate lately. Sure he's getting a few assists, but how hard is that with Dower and PK? I'm not even convinced he's that good with his basketball "handles". I hope Few will finally see the light.

Wait…….what? Oh, never mind.

L




PS. This is not a bash against KP. Just an observation on how this board unfairly piles on certain players.

Let's lobby and get David added to the Cousy Award List.

vandalzag
01-19-2014, 01:35 PM
No it doesn't. I'd listen.


Let's lobby and get David added to the Cousy Award List.

Sure thing Gozags because responses like Vanzagger's are much more productive. The secret to objective discourse on this board has evolved into either holding a 4 year grudge against a player(based on nothing more then personal dislike) or being like Jazz and offering nothing more than negative assessments of all things (occasionally salting in some faint praise to keep people off balanced). Stating opinions as facts while never being swayed by facts or observations which contradict. Better yet lets go on and on about how the team embarrassed you by losing in the NCAA tourney. Because in life that the success or failure of your favorite team reflects personally on you.

This board used to be place where Zag fans gathered to celebrate success and/or commiserate after losses. The old board prided itself on not being like other fan sites(like Dawgman). Not a site where discourse did not exist, but a place where level headed conversation was the norm. Now we have a board that really should be named Why I Like or Hate David Stockton(or the next targeted player). Say something positive and you are a Pollyanna, the only way you can be objective is to constantly stay on a message of criticism. Just spew a constant strain of negativity regardless of reason and all is good. As long as you establish your position based on nothing more than I do not like this player your are beyond reproach.

DixieZag
01-19-2014, 01:37 PM
It is slightly frustrating that Coleman and Nunez appear to be the exact high risk, high reward, inconsistent, occasionally unstoppable and occasionally lost like a goat type of players.

These types of players have been the bane of our existence in March, because when a coach sticks with them early (even losing a game or two b/c of it), they are a different, better player in March.

One thing that I think no one mentions enough is that our season structure really ties Few's hands early in the year. Everyone knows that we are forced to rely heavily on pre-conference "big wins" to place us well going into March. We simply can't throw away games like Kansas did, knowing that they'd be tough in conference - it's a lot easier to sit back and let your team be noodled by a mid-level team when it doesn't result in 2 seeds positions with each one.

Do I think he should loosen the reigns? Oh absolutely, and it is more frustrating than other years b/c these two seem so exciting and have so much upside. But, I can temper that by acknowledging Few's in a more difficult spot than the BCS critters.

23dpg
01-19-2014, 01:37 PM
Let's lobby and get David added to the Cousy Award List.

Yes, that is exactly what I said. :rolleyes:(sarcasm)

Thanks for inadvertently illustrating what I was saying though.

Birddog
01-19-2014, 01:54 PM
This board used to be place where Zag fans gathered to celebrate success and/or commiserate after losses. The old board prided itself on not being like other fan sites(like Dawgman). Not a site where discourse did not exist, but a place where level headed conversation was the norm. Now we have a board that really should be named Why I Like or Hate David Stockton(or the next targeted player). Say something positive and you are a Pollyanna, the only way you can be objective is to constantly stay on a message of criticism. Just spew a constant strain of negativity regardless of reason and all is good. As long as you establish your position based on nothing more than I do not like this player your are beyond reproach.

I remember the good ol days too. Used to be a lot more traffic on this site back then too. It may have been more appealing back in the day.

Larryzag
01-19-2014, 02:28 PM
IF



If someone needed to take a seat in the pep game it was KP. I give him a pass on the toe vs. Ireland, but he couldn't get shots to drop either.

If your favorite target played that poorly you'd be peddling your crap 8 days a week, not just the mere 7. Popping blood vessels in the process. And your 2-3 followers would be braying, too. Sleepless for a month.

"Only" feeding the post, and every one else who was open, at the right time and in order to make the team better, is what a p.g. does.

Assuming, as you and others do, that GB or KP could/should/must be the better p.g. choice, where would this team be, in reality & given the injuries, without DS ?

No defense ? Check the steals. Disruptions . Hustles & fouls? Watch the game. W.t.f. Are you talking about ? Are you watching all those loose balls ? Who seems to have a hand in there most of the time ? Who tries to cover for his teammates as well ?

He's doing more than his share. Disruptive menace? Look beyond your stigma ? Get the crap out of your eyes

DS seems to keep performing, given the roller coaster we're on, better, more consistently, than anyone. He'd have 6-8 more assists, v. Pepp, for e.g., if PK & SD had made half their lay ins early on. We should have been up 12 in the first 5 minutes, too.

Won't see that on the stat sheet. Anyone watching would have noticed. So how did those bunnies get to those bigs? You want to bench him for shooters? Amazing. Take out the q,b. Because the receivers aren't catching their passes. And the backup q.b.'s are game but battling their own issues. Brilliant.

Since you have endless time to coach this team, I'd like to know What is it you do that contributes anything except a poorly fashioned, outdated, incorrect, weak minded, strong willed thesis that doesn't hold water nor shed light ? IF IF IF is where you live. IF KP were healthy. IF GBj weren't injured. IF KP is having a bad game and Injured ( v. Pepp). IF ANYONE but DS could get more p.t., more attention, time. Shoot. Shoot. Shoot. The rest will take care of itself. Somehow.

The perennial.100 analyst still barking at a cloud and trying to steer the .800 coach.

How about this: IF DS weren't out there most of the time, we'd be in a world of hurt. In a perfect world, suspending ALL reality, THEN maybe DS should be seated while a shooter is put on the floor to change up the game. Except shooters, by nature, will not suddenly become ball handlers and passers, eschewing their shot and moving it to the guy who is more open. Over and over. That's why we have a p.g. And damned lucky to have one of the best, heading soon into the GU record books. For a reason that does not deserve the constant pecking from a professional coq.

Minimizing this excellent athlete & contributor, even when and while 3 other starters are struggling, while the bigs & KP are having average or below average games, our big is adjusting to his role, our sleek, new Zags are getting their legs & our system under control, our future starters, are adjusting and blah blah blah. What we STILL need, what you woke up to offers as your coaching tip du jour, is to cut the presence and p.t. Of the only increasingly consistent, reliable, & healthiest guard we have. Ignoring that this same guy was a starter when all three guards were healthy. Either way, the what we need to do is just sit the last one. Too short. Too Ty something.

And put in someone with half to 1/3rd of the savvy, skill and iq to see and play the entire field.

Right. Rinse. Repeat.


John? Is this you John?