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SWZag
12-10-2013, 11:52 PM
Creating this thread to track David's climb up the GU charts. (Not a debating thread).

Following West Virginia game, 12/10, where David had 8 assists and 1 steal.

Assists:
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. Derek Raivio – 356
7. Steven Gray – 339
8. Geoff Goss – 324
9. David Stockton - 323
10. Don Baldwin – 313

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. Doug Spradley – 159
5. Derek Raivio – 156
6. Steven Gray - 155
7. Blake Stepp – 152
8. Geoff Goss – 139
9. Tim Wagoner – 131
10 David Stockton - 127

rawkmandale
12-11-2013, 01:06 AM
Thank you - facts are facts.

Oregonzagnut
12-11-2013, 05:38 AM
I think Stockton has earned and played his way into a starting job. Seeing the company he keeps with our top 10'ers, it is IMO that Stockton would start on 95% of the Div 1 teams today. Especially if he was with the program for 5 years as a senior. If assists are an indicator of a true point guard, then Stockton is more of a true PG than Pangos.

bartruff1
12-11-2013, 05:49 AM
I think Few actually knows what he is doing. 383 wins and on his way to 400 maybe this year. In the end the best players play under the circumstances at that time in the game.

Coaching a game is calculus in a dynamic situation, not addition and subtraction after the fact. I can design a road or a bridge or a pavement ect.... Few can't do that, but he can coach...I can't and I don't kid myself that I can.

Hoopaholic
12-11-2013, 05:49 AM
I think Stockton has earned and played his way into a starting job. Seeing the company he keeps with our top 10'ers, it is IMO that Stockton would start on 95% of the Div 1 teams today. Especially if he was with the program for 5 years as a senior. If assists are an indicator of a true point guard, then Stockton is more of a true PG than Pangos.

HUH? Pangos is on track to be in the 400's for assists if he continues with his average the rest of this year and next year with potential to be ahead of Bouldin

It is fun to see all the names on the list and each of them brought something unique to the floor......

BurgessEraZag
12-11-2013, 09:14 AM
I think Few actually knows what he is doing. 383 wins and on his way to 400 maybe this year. In the end the best players play under the circumstances at that time in the game.

Coaching a game is calculus in a dynamic situation, not addition and subtraction after the fact. I can design a road or a bridge or a pavement ect.... Few can't do that, but he can coach...I can't and I don't kid myself that I can.
John Wooden said intelligence is knowing what you don't know. Takes some humility too. Way to go bartruff1

NumberCruncher
12-11-2013, 10:13 AM
Thanks for posting those, SWZag.

I wish that whoever maintains the pdf record book would fix the steals lists. The career steals list has been wrong for years and this year they left David Stockton out of the season steals top 10. His 53 steals from last season should be listed at #7.

Also, I have Stockton at 128, not 127. Not trying to nitpick you, just want to make sure my data is correct. I had him at 112 to start the year and 16 more so far this year.

007Zag
12-11-2013, 10:26 AM
So if averages hold, it looks like at the end of the year DS will be sitting at 6th all time in assists at around 400, and anywhere from 4th to 8th in steals somewhere in the 150s.

On another note, I suppose it's to be expected, but I found it interesting that 8 players are in the top 10 for both lists.

zag buddy
12-11-2013, 10:42 AM
What would be amazing is if these numbers were adjusted for number of minutes played. I believe David would be near or at the top of the list.

NumberCruncher
12-11-2013, 11:15 AM
What would be amazing is if these numbers were adjusted for number of minutes played. I believe David would be near or at the top of the list.
Don't have the complete stats for everybody on these lists. But the stats I do have would put John first and David second on both assists and steals per minute.

zag buddy
12-11-2013, 12:11 PM
tx NC, great job & well done

SWZag
01-21-2014, 06:42 AM
NumberCruncher, feel free to provide any corrections. I counted based on your earlier comment about steals. (game by game data from ESPN)

Following LMU game, 1/18, where David had 4 assists and 1 steal.

Assists:
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. Derek Raivio – 356
7. David Stockton - 350
8. Steven Gray – 339
9. Geoff Goss – 324
10. Don Baldwin – 313

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. Doug Spradley – 159
5. Derek Raivio – 156
6. Steven Gray - 155
7. Blake Stepp – 152
8. David Stockton - 143
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131

WallaWallaZag
01-21-2014, 07:16 AM
out of curiosity, is there a top 10 list available for turnovers? my perception of stockton is that he is turnover prone, so would expect him to be on that list too.

sittingon50
01-21-2014, 10:53 AM
out of curiosity, is there a top 10 list available for turnovers? my perception of stockton is that he is turnover prone, so would expect him to be on that list too.

I've never seen one, from any of various sources. One could be compiled from yearly stats sources, but it would take a little work (and wouldn't necessarily go back very far).

Edit to add: A quick calculation
TO's per minute:
KP .050
GB .046
DS .071

Steals PM:
KP .040
GB .026
DS .063

Assists PM:
KP .109
GB .073
DS .153

So, DS has the higher TO rate. OTOH, he also has a higher Steal & Asst. Rate on a per minute basis & in some cases, significant.
(this is assuming I didn't blow any calculations in my haste).

KStyles
01-21-2014, 12:19 PM
One could be compiled from yearly stats sources, but it would take a little work (and wouldn't necessarily go back very far).

Yeah, I researched it a bit, but didn't go too far back. I did get as far as noting that Stockon currently has 163 for his career, while Pargo finished with 357 (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/gonzaga/jeremy-pargo), Harris had 242 (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/elias-harris-1.html), Bouldin had 281 (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/gonzaga/matt-bouldin), Gray had 209 (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/steven-gray-1.html), and Sacre had 220 (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/robert-sacre-1.html).

Even if Stockton doubles the 34 he's already had this season (and the season is likely more than halfway over), he'd be just shy of 200. With the above numbers just from players finishing in the past few years, I really doubt he'd be on a top 10 all-time list.

gamagin
01-21-2014, 12:31 PM
+1 NC & SW Zag & styles

The only thing that would complete this pix is to post KP's numbers in the same category. I agree w/Hoop that KP could well wind up ahead of a number of all time greats in those categories before he's done.

Also, strictly from observation, I expect DS's t.o.'s to be and remain higher throughout his career. He takes more chances. He forces the plays at times and get's caught.

He's basically sent in to make things happen, as often as not, and he does, way more often than not. That's his job. Find the open man. The job of everyone else is to get ready to shoot or advance the ball to someone in even better position. He's often the last resort but he also knows the clock and has no problem shooting or passing at the last second, whatever is needed.

By their nature, and conversely, KP and GBj are much more cautious. They (GBj in particular and KP less so over time) seem to need to "feel it" before they'll shoot. It's probably also why they are better shooters. They know when to shoot and when to pass. But that luxury is not available to the last guy with the ball and a second or two left on the clock.

cbbfanatic
01-21-2014, 12:35 PM
Seeing the company he keeps with our top 10'ers, it is IMO that Stockton would start on 95% of the Div 1 teams today.

you dont watch enough college basketball. you're basically saying that he is a top 15-20 PG in college ball, and that is just insanely inaccurate, no matter how much one likes this kid's game.

Blackbeard
01-21-2014, 12:36 PM
That is amazing (almost unbelievable) that he is up there with those guys. I still don't like him though... too bad they don't have statistics of points against as he would be in the top 10 worst list.

Those names are a blast from the past, isn't Doug Spradley the bald dude that would rain threes from a couple meters from the 3 point arc? That is when the Kennel Club wasn't full of idiots. The old times...

gamagin
01-21-2014, 12:53 PM
you dont watch enough college basketball. you're basically saying that he is a top 15-20 PG in college ball, and that is just insanely inaccurate, no matter how much one likes this kid's game.

you got a link CBB ? He's the starting guard on a top 25 team. Ozn"s speculation seems more likely than, say, the prospect being "insanely inaccurate." Putting these two opinions back to back. Imo.

I've never thought of it before this, but you seem to be adamant about it. So you must know something you can share to properly paint this stark contrast you raise. Fire away.

It also raises another question.

Stats Guys: what are the NCAA steals and assists numbers for this season ? Does someone keep running stats on them as well ?

thanks,

cbbfanatic
01-21-2014, 01:06 PM
you got a link CBB ? He's the starting guard on a top 25 team. Ozn"s speculation seems more likely than, say, the prospect being "insanely inaccurate." Putting these two opinions back to back. Imo.

I've never thought of it before this, but you seem to be adamant about it. So you must know something you can share to properly paint this stark contrast you raise. Fire away.

It also raises another question.

what are the NCAA steals and assists numbers for this season ? Does someone keep running stats on them as well ?

thanks,

nope, no link. just eyeball test here. believe it or not, there are some good PG's out there on unranked teams, and plenty of relatively weak starters ON ranked teams (PG and other), so the "he's a starting PG on a top 25 team" line is about as irrelevant as it comes. doesnt prove much to me as i dont see the point in filtering out 300 rosters off the bat. (btw, David's hof dad didnt play on a top 25 team - does that make the son better than the father?)

its not all about steal and assist stats either - there are just too many situations where I wouldnt want to put this kid on the court. one of those being against strong, physical, scoring guards. most good teams have those guys - i'd try to keep ds as far away from them as i can, if i was trying to put him in his best position to succeed. i dont have an axe to grind against the kid, he is probably a great guy and ambassador - but that doesnt make him a great PG.

here is a different link though --- its the cousy watch list. i havent seen all these guys play, but each one that i have seen i would pick over DS in a heartbeat, if my criteria was that i needed a starting PG for a team that had 2nd wknd aspirations. and i am sure there are plenty of guys that didnt make this list that could probably be on there as well.

http://www.cousyaward.com/watchlist.php

SWZag
01-21-2014, 01:09 PM
Guys, please. This is just to track numbers and numbers only. Please refrain from throwing opinions into the mix. There are PLENTY of other threads for that. Thank you.

SWZag

gamagin
01-21-2014, 01:18 PM
+1

Guys, please. This is just to track numbers and numbers only. Please refrain from throwing opinions into the mix. There are PLENTY of other threads for that. Thank you.

SWZag

sorry. I was trying to encourage some of those elusive numbers.

how about NCAA steals and assists stats ? Those numbers available ?

thanks,

cbbfanatic
01-21-2014, 01:30 PM
+1


sorry. I was trying to encourage some of those elusive numbers.

how about NCAA steals and assists stats ? Those numbers available ?

thanks,

tied for 98th in assists, not in top 100 for assists per game, steals, or steals per game

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/statistics

SWZag
01-21-2014, 01:33 PM
how about NCAA steals and assists stats? Those numbers available?

thanks,

Looks like ESPN has a list of running stats.

Based on assists / steals per game:
Steals (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/statistics/player/_/stat/steals/sort/avgSteals/count/81) - The leader, Briante Weber of VCU has 68 steals, an average of a whopping 3.78 steals per game. #100 is averaging 1.78 steals per game. Pretty impressive. David averaging 1.6 per game to this point.
Assists (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/statistics/player/_/stat/assists) - The leader, Jason Brickman of LIU, has 160 assists, an average of a staggering 9.5 per game average. #100 is averaging 4.4 assists per game, while David is averaging 4.2 per game.


Edited: Looks like cbbfanatic beat me to it.

BTB
01-21-2014, 01:35 PM
+1


sorry. I was trying to encourage some of those elusive numbers.

how about NCAA steals and assists stats ? Those numbers available ?

thanks,

According to ESPN, David is not in the top 100 for steals this season (he has 31 and the 100th best is 38). He is tied for 98th in assists with 79. I'm very surprised he's not higher on both lists! ESPN only shows the top 100 so not sure where he'd be on steals.

Pangos is tied for 91st in assists with 81

EDIT: Two people beat me to it!

wnczagfan
01-21-2014, 04:09 PM
I would think that it is hard to compare him to other team's guards on a "per game" basis, as I would guess he has played less minutes per game over the course of his career. I would like to see how his assists, steals, and turnovers compared on a "per minutes played" basis.

Regardless of whether you like David or not (and I do like him, as well as all of our Zags), I think the fact that he has come from being a non-scholarship walk-on to being on these lists is an incredible accomplishment. Hats off to him!

mgadfly
01-21-2014, 04:13 PM
If you subscribe to ken pomeroy's site you can get per possession and tempo neutral statistics, which might be interesting because it takes away both the per game and tempo bias. Spoiler: Stockton's steals and assists temp-neutral statistics are very good.

kclubfounder
01-21-2014, 04:14 PM
Thank you - facts are facts.

But what about the "facts" that he is too slow, not athletic enough, and plays primarily thanks to his last name? Or the clear and obvious "fact" that he puts the team at a total and complete disadvantage on defense when he plays? What about those FACTS!!!! Oh, and don't even get me started about how bad he shoots.




My wife tells me my sarcasm is not funny. All I can say is, sorry.

Vanzagger
01-21-2014, 04:18 PM
Besides Georgetown's, they laid another turd last night, what # of PGs have played with 4 NBA guys and not made the 2nd weekend?

Zags11
01-21-2014, 04:20 PM
Last 2 replies before mine prove my thread point. Come on, lets slow clap it out.....

maynard g krebs
01-21-2014, 04:30 PM
Besides Georgetown's, they laid another turd last night, what # of PGs have played with 4 NBA guys and not made the 2nd weekend?

Are you are complaining about Pangos, who was the starting pg the previous 2 years?

BTB
01-21-2014, 04:32 PM
If you subscribe to ken pomeroy's site you can get per possession and tempo neutral statistics, which might be interesting because it takes away both the per game and tempo bias. Spoiler: Stockton's steals and assists temp-neutral statistics are very good.

According to DraftExpress, he averages 5.9 assists per 40 pace adjusted (Tied for 98th in the country) and 2.4 steals per 40 pace adjusted (tied for 108th in the country). He's not even half as high as the leaders in each stat. DraftExpress's stats also include players that have only played 1 game though, so it is probably not very accurate.

Vanzagger
01-21-2014, 05:04 PM
Are you are complaining about Pangos, who was the starting pg the previous 2 years?

Last year in the Kennel I watched a confident Guy Landry Edi, leading the team in scoring, get subbed out after less than 3 minutes. For?....your boy. You don't think there was a plan? He was like a starter last year playing with a lottery pick. Almost lost to Southern in first round.

Pangos saved our bacon at the end of that game.

Stockton started as a sophmore. What's your point?

bigblahla
01-21-2014, 05:26 PM
Last year in the Kennel I watched a confident Guy Landry Edi, leading the team in scoring, get subbed out after less than 3 minutes. For?....your boy. You don't think there was a plan? He was like a starter last year playing with a lottery pick. Almost lost to Southern in first round.

Pangos saved our bacon at the end of that game.

Stockton started as a sophmore. What's your point?

How exactly did Edi fit in the offense? Would like your opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

GeorgiaZagFan
01-21-2014, 06:01 PM
you dont watch enough college basketball. you're basically saying that he is a top 15-20 PG in college ball, and that is just insanely inaccurate, no matter how much one likes this kid's game.

Don't know about the starting thing either because he's so valuable as a change-up guy that make things happen off the bench ...with that being said I believe he'd be in the top 7 rotation of 95% of teams in college basketball ...starting is so overrated at times!! Just for the record...DS has 350 assists in 2283 minutes of play and KP has 308 in 2829 minutes of play. Yes ...David is more of a true point guard making passes that are so fun to watch ....Pangos on the other hand is that combo PG/SG that is also lots of fun to watch as he goes off for points when we need them....as a Zags fan it is SOOOOO nice to have them both.

23dpg
01-21-2014, 06:14 PM
you dont watch enough college basketball. you're basically saying that he is a top 15-20 PG in college ball, and that is just insanely inaccurate, no matter how much one likes this kid's game.

No need to be so derogatory. Especially when you are (IMO) correct. Not insane, and I'm sure OZN watches cbb, but he is a fan of his team. I personally think all the hate toward DS is insane….oops, overboard. But I agree with your numbers and your opinion. 300+ D1 schools, top 5% = 15-20. David is not in that group. I'm guessing DS would even agree.

GeorgiaZagFan
01-21-2014, 06:22 PM
Besides Georgetown's, they laid another turd last night, what # of PGs have played with 4 NBA guys and not made the 2nd weekend?

WHAT 4 NBA guys are you talking about? At last count I have maybe 1 (Olynyk) and a half (Sacre) ...AND DS averaged 15, 17, and 19 minutes before this year ....

MDABE80
01-21-2014, 06:23 PM
A FIRST for this board: Trying to figure out how BAD one of our beloved, courageous players are. A redshirt who did well enough to get his scholie and who's contributed to many many victories. Nice goin guys.

BTB
01-21-2014, 06:31 PM
Besides Georgetown's, they laid another turd last night, what # of PGs have played with 4 NBA guys and not made the 2nd weekend?


Last year in the Kennel I watched a confident Guy Landry Edi, leading the team in scoring, get subbed out after less than 3 minutes. For?....your boy. You don't think there was a plan? He was like a starter last year playing with a lottery pick. Almost lost to Southern in first round.

Pangos saved our bacon at the end of that game.

Stockton started as a sophmore. What's your point?

I tried to ignore you but congrats you baited me into it.. This is a thread to track the career acheivements of one of our players who has dedicated to his career to helping this program as best he can. There is a time and place to voice your opinion (which you have relentlessly done and everyone on GUBoards is aware that you have a blind hatred for short players) but this thread is not it. You do not need to come and bring negativity to this thread, there are several other threads that you can do that in. If you absolutely cannot resist coming here and letting everyone know how terrible you think David is then how about you skip this thread next time you come on? I'm pretty sure I saw that in the rules you are not supposed to derail threads off topic.

Ok that's it I'm officially never replying to another post hating on David.. I can do this.. Be strong.. :explode:



WHAT 4 NBA guys are you talking about? At last count I have maybe 1 (Olynyk) and a half (Sacre) ...AND DS averaged 15, 17, and 19 minutes before this year ....

Good point

Ekrub
01-21-2014, 06:44 PM
Here is his statsheet page:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/gonzaga/david-stockton?season=2013-2014

Not bad at all.

bigblahla
01-21-2014, 06:51 PM
A FIRST for this board: Trying to figure out how BAD one of our beloved, courageous players are. A redshirt who did well enough to get his scholie and who's contributed to many many victories. Nice goin guys.

http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/archive/index.php/t-22434.html

Nice call Doc. The kid did exactly as you said.

Go!! Zags!!!

WallaWallaZag
01-21-2014, 06:57 PM
He's often the last resort but he also knows the clock and has no problem shooting or passing at the last second, whatever is needed. By their nature, and conversely, KP and GBj are much more cautious. They (GBj in particular and KP less so over time) seem to need to "feel it" before they'll shoot. It's probably also why they are better shooters. They know when to shoot and when to pass. But that luxury is not available to the last guy with the ball and a second or two left on the clock.

i would have to strongly disagree with this...kevin pangos has the ball in his hands the majority of situations with the shot clock running down and not david stockton. pangos is also anything but cautious and never has been...stockton by comparison hesitates to shoot even when he is wide open. i get that you are defending stockton, but when you use faulty examples it's not exactly helping his cause. he has his strengths but everyone knows shooting isn't one of them.

Zagsker
01-21-2014, 07:12 PM
...it is IMO that Stockton would start on 95% of the Div 1 teams today...

Don't see it

gamagin
01-21-2014, 07:12 PM
i would have to strongly disagree with this...kevin pangos has the ball in his hands the majority of situations with the shot clock running down and not david stockton. pangos is also anything but cautious and never has been...stockton by comparison hesitates to shoot even when he is wide open. i get that you are defending stockton, but when you use faulty examples it's not exactly helping his cause. he has his strengths but everyone knows shooting isn't one of them.

ok we disagree. I know what I've seen for 3 years and so do you. stockton does hesitate to shoot. He just got it back from a shooter. the clock is running down. If you haven't seen this many times, I don't know what to say. It's forced him to shoot better, I think and fwiw. I expect the shooter to take the shot, not return it, whether DS is willing or not.

Next time we have a high pressure game, watch & see how many times a shooter (open) won't shoot. KP is among the best to shoot, but he is also a naturally cautious shooter, imo. If he is hot he doesn't hesitate. My issue is when he or any other shooter is open (I say, but not ready). GB was the worst at this, imo. KD & DB used to be more like this, too after m issing a shot or two. Less so now as their confidence grows.

at any rate, it will show or it won't. It would be great with me if it stopped happening.

Zags11
01-21-2014, 07:13 PM
Are we serious here? Lol. Lets give props for being top 10 in couple areas. He isnt the best player but he isnt the worst.

caduceus
01-21-2014, 07:24 PM
Stockton started as a sophmore. What's your point?

Yeah, for one game:

Starts:
2009-10: 0
2010-11: 0
2011-12: 1
2012-13: 2

maynard g krebs
01-21-2014, 10:01 PM
Last year in the Kennel I watched a confident Guy Landry Edi, leading the team in scoring, get subbed out after less than 3 minutes. For?....your boy. You don't think there was a plan? He was like a starter last year playing with a lottery pick. Almost lost to Southern in first round.

Pangos saved our bacon at the end of that game.

Stockton started as a sophmore. What's your point?

To quote Puddy from Seinfeld: "Don't play dumb with me. That's a game you can't win."

ZagaZags
01-21-2014, 10:33 PM
Safe to say, Stockton will finish 6th all time in assists for GU.

cbbfanatic
01-22-2014, 06:49 AM
A FIRST for this board: Trying to figure out how BAD one of our beloved, courageous players are. A redshirt who did well enough to get his scholie and who's contributed to many many victories. Nice goin guys.

i dont see how that changes the argument. im not terribly concerned with how he got here, only that he IS here and playing significant minutes.

its a nice footnote that he made it as a walk-on, but it doesnt change what happens on the court. i dont think people doubt his balls or character. i dont anyway

SWZag
01-28-2014, 07:24 AM
Following the USD and BYU games, where David had a combined 10 assists and 2 steals.

Moved up to 6th place in assists, with a long way to go to reach Bouldin at #5. Pulled a little bit closer to Stepp in steals, now trailing by 7.

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 360
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Steven Gray – 339
9. Geoff Goss – 324
10. Don Baldwin – 313

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. Doug Spradley – 159
5. Derek Raivio – 156
6. Steven Gray - 155
7. Blake Stepp – 152
8. David Stockton - 145
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131

LongIslandZagFan
01-28-2014, 07:35 AM
In terms of assists catching Bouldin will be tough. A very deep run in the tourney and keeping at average would give him a punchers chance. Catching dad... ain't happening.

Steals... depending on how deep a run should end up 3rd, maybe tied for or 2nd outright. If he "holds serve" and stays at average he'll be at 161 going into the conference tourney.

Zagsker
01-28-2014, 07:37 AM
A FIRST for this board: Trying to figure out how BAD one of our beloved, courageous players are. A redshirt who did well enough to get his scholie and who's contributed to many many victories. Nice goin guys.

How is he "courageous"...just curious. I see this on other forums regarding athletes and I always find it a funny description for an athlete that is not doing anything other than playing. Now a player continuing to play while suffering an injury that is causing extreme pain could be considered "courageous" I guess (although I would feel funny using it) but a guy who is just playing a sport...meh, not that "courageous" in my book

Zagdawg
01-28-2014, 07:38 AM
We get the extra game in the conf tourney this year also-- may help a bit with #'s.

LongIslandZagFan
01-28-2014, 07:41 AM
We get the extra game in the conf tourney this year also-- may help a bit with #'s.

True... still thinking he may have peaked in terms of position on assists... but like I said... punchers chance if there is a very deep run.

I would not be shocked if Stocktons are #1 and #2 in steals when all is said and done.

Reborn
01-28-2014, 07:52 AM
How is he "courageous"...just curious. I see this on other forums regarding athletes and I always find it a funny description for an athlete that is not doing anything other than playing. Now a player continuing to play while suffering an injury that is causing extreme pain could be considered "courageous" I guess (although I would feel funny using it) but a guy who is just playing a sport...meh, not that "courageous" in my book

IMO any person who's able to compete on a Div I basketball court is very courageous. If you compete at the level that GU does takes even that much more courage. I can guarantee you that every time a guard penetrates a teams defense and take it to the rack, he is facing some big, mean players in the key who want to bust his nose or any other part of the body that they can break. And David is also smart. He doesn't attack the basket too often with reckless abandon, but often gets inside and looks things over like a surgeon. He has smarts too. And finally, for a son of John Stockton to attempt to make it in Div I and at the same school his dad played at, takes alot of courage to me. He has subjected himself to a ton of criticism, and he has faced that and conquered it and has become a very good point guard who is starting for one of the best basketball teams in Div I.

I've had my criticisms of Stockton, and I've had my doubts, but he has convinced me that he's a first rate point guard. I was very, very impressed with his game against BYU. If teams are going to play off of him and not focus on his offense, then I think he has the tools to hurt them for doing that. He certainly hurt BYU in that first half. And as we all remember he took over the game against a very determined Santa Clara team.

former1dog
01-28-2014, 07:54 AM
How is he "courageous"...just curious. I see this on other forums regarding athletes and I always find it a funny description for an athlete that is not doing anything other than playing. Now a player continuing to play while suffering an injury that is causing extreme pain could be considered "courageous" I guess (although I would feel funny using it) but a guy who is just playing a sport...meh, not that "courageous" in my book

In the strictest sense of the word, courageous might not be far off. For example, David Stockton clearly wanted to play college basketball and like most human beings that want to do something, he likely wanted to do well. David, not being recruited at all out of high school, took a risk in not accomplishing his goal of playing well as a college basketball player by walking on to a Top 25 team. Being John Stockton's son(arguably the greatest point guard ever and inarguably the most successful player to ever matriculate at Gonzaga), David knowingly exposed himself to a healthy amount of scrutiny by coming to GU.

In my opinion, taking risks and exposing yourself to scrutiny shows courage. Thus one could say David Stockton is courageous.

Hoopaholic
01-28-2014, 08:15 AM
In the strictest sense of the word, courageous might not be far off. For example, David Stockton clearly wanted to play college basketball and like most human beings that want to do something, he likely wanted to do well. David, not being recruited at all out of high school, took a risk in not accomplishing his goal of playing well as a college basketball player by walking on to a Top 25 team. Being John Stockton's son(arguably the greatest point guard ever and inarguably the most successful player to ever matriculate at Gonzaga), David knowingly exposed himself to a healthy amount of scrutiny by coming to GU.

In my opinion, taking risks and exposing yourself to scrutiny shows courage. Thus one could say David Stockton is courageous.

without a doubt in my book

NumberCruncher
01-28-2014, 11:30 AM
Following the USD and BYU games, where David had a combined 10 assists and 2 steals.

Moved up to 6th place in assists, with a long way to go to reach Bouldin at #5. Pulled a little bit closer to Stepp in steals, now trailing by 7.

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 360
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Steven Gray – 339
9. Geoff Goss – 324
10. Don Baldwin – 313

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. Doug Spradley – 159
5. Derek Raivio – 156
6. Steven Gray - 155
7. Blake Stepp – 152
8. David Stockton - 145
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131


Pangos now has 316 assists to knock Baldwin out of the 10th spot.

maynard g krebs
01-28-2014, 12:10 PM
IMO any person who's able to compete on a Div I basketball court is very courageous. If you compete at the level that GU does takes even that much more courage. I can guarantee you that every time a guard penetrates a teams defense and take it to the rack, he is facing some big, mean players in the key who want to bust his nose or any other part of the body that they can break. And David is also smart. He doesn't attack the basket too often with reckless abandon, but often gets inside and looks things over like a surgeon. He has smarts too. And finally, for a son of John Stockton to attempt to make it in Div I and at the same school his dad played at, takes alot of courage to me. He has subjected himself to a ton of criticism, and he has faced that and conquered it and has become a very good point guard who is starting for one of the best basketball teams in Div I.

I've had my criticisms of Stockton, and I've had my doubts, but he has convinced me that he's a first rate point guard. I was very, very impressed with his game against BYU. If teams are going to play off of him and not focus on his offense, then I think he has the tools to hurt them for doing that. He certainly hurt BYU in that first half. And as we all remember he took over the game against a very determined Santa Clara team.

great post, F1D's as well. When I saw DS in the state tourney in Tacoma, he looked like a D2 player at best, or NAIA. He must have put in an incredible amount of work to get to where he is.

titopoet
01-28-2014, 12:10 PM
Following the USD and BYU games, where David had a combined 10 assists and 2 steals.

Moved up to 6th place in assists, with a long way to go to reach Bouldin at #5. Pulled a little bit closer to Stepp in steals, now trailing by 7.

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 360
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Steven Gray – 339
9. Geoff Goss – 324
10. Don Baldwin – 313

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. Doug Spradley – 159
5. Derek Raivio – 156
6. Steven Gray - 155
7. Blake Stepp – 152
8. David Stockton - 145
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131

Update again. Kevin has moved into top ten as he has 316 assists.

wnczagfan
01-28-2014, 02:09 PM
Wow! Congratulations to Kevin! He has plenty more time to move up the chart, too. I can see Stockton getting to 4th in steals potentially this season. Passing Matt Bouldin in assists seems a stretch, but I would sure like to see it! Perhaps if we play enough games (hint,hint), he could do it.

SWZag
02-06-2014, 09:45 AM
Following the Santa Clara, San Fransisco and Portland games, where David had a combined 8 assists and 6 steals.

Remained in 6th place in assists,
Pulled within 1 of Blake Stepp in 7th place with 151 steals.

Added Kevin Pangos to the Assist Top 10, at 9th place with 326. Following the Santa Clara, USF and UP games, where Kevin had a combined 10 assists.

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 368
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Steven Gray – 339
9. Kevin Pangos – 326
10. Geoff Goss – 324

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. Doug Spradley – 159
5. Derek Raivio – 156
6. Steven Gray - 155
7. Blake Stepp – 152
8. David Stockton - 151
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131

hooter73
02-06-2014, 10:14 AM
so he'll probably stay at 6th for assists but Im thinking were looking at # three for steals by the end of the season. A three way tie for #2 would be cool but probably not realistic.

NumberCruncher
02-06-2014, 05:59 PM
David was robbed of a steal with 2:45 to go in the first half. They gave it to Pangos.

gamagin
02-06-2014, 07:24 PM
I knew he had two. saw them. the second one was under their basket. He just ripped it out of that Pilot's hands.

The first was roughly atop the key. He also caused a couple of t.o.'s with pokes at the ball. but the two clear ones were really clear.

how does that get corrected ? challenged ? Or does it ? Curious. thanks,

BTB
02-06-2014, 07:43 PM
I knew he had two. saw them. the second one was under their basket. He just ripped it out of that Pilot's hands.

The first was roughly atop the key. He also caused a couple of t.o.'s with pokes at the ball. but the two clear ones were really clear.

how does that get corrected ? challenged ? Or does it ? Curious. thanks,

I think it doesn't get corrected but is made up for the fact that out of his 151 steals at least 1 of them was probably also mistakenly attributed to him even though he didn't actually make the steal.

NumberCruncher
02-07-2014, 10:02 AM
I think it doesn't get corrected but is made up for the fact that out of his 151 steals at least 1 of them was probably also mistakenly attributed to him even though he didn't actually make the steal.

Agreed. Scorers make real-time judgment calls and are not always correct. Should even out in the long run.

wnczagfan
02-13-2014, 07:29 PM
Please update the chart. Thanks!

gozagswoohoo
02-14-2014, 05:33 AM
This may have been mentioned in the thread already, but MAN, how cool would it be for John and David Stockton to be 1-2 on the all-time steals list?!?!

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that would have to be a first (for a father and son to be 1-2 in a stat column for their school).

kitzbuel
02-14-2014, 05:35 AM
This may have been mentioned in the thread already, but MAN, how cool would it be for John and David Stockton to be 1-2 on the all-time steals list?!?!

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that would have to be a first (for a father and son to be 1-2 in a stat column for their school).

I was just thinking that.

gamagin
02-14-2014, 07:05 AM
Stats guys:

I
Following the Santa Clara, San Fransisco and Portland games, where David had a combined 8 assists and 6 steals.

Remained in 6th place in assists,
Pulled within 1 of Blake Stepp in 7th place with 151 steals.

Added Kevin Pangos to the Assist Top 10, at 9th place with 326. Following the Santa Clara, USF and UP games, where Kevin had a combined 10 assists.

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 368
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Steven Gray – 339
9. Kevin Pangos – 326
10. Geoff Goss – 324

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. Doug Spradley – 159
5. Derek Raivio – 156
6. Steven Gray - 155
7. Blake Stepp – 152
8. David Stockton - 151
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131

Cad/crunch/SWzag: For perspective, it would be nice to note minutes or games played (whichever paints the clearer pix here). I think JS, for e.g., was a starter for 3.5 years, stepp for 4 years. Not sure about santangelo, but at least 3, I think. DS had limited (or much less) p.t. For 3 years and the start this year. Big difference. Makes accomplishments even more amazing here, IMO. Fwiw.
Thanks,

wnczagfan
02-14-2014, 07:14 AM
This may have been mentioned in the thread already, but MAN, how cool would it be for John and David Stockton to be 1-2 on the all-time steals list?!?!

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that would have to be a first (for a father and son to be 1-2 in a stat column for their school).

I think a run in the NCAA tournament would be needed. I am all for that!

007Zag
02-14-2014, 08:00 AM
I'm guessing the stat chart won't be updated until after the LMU game tomorrow, but DS got credit for 3 steals last night, bumping him up to 6th all time at 154. Also had five assists, pushing him up to 373--still sixth place, where he is likely to stay.

If he can keep a pace of 2 steals/game, assuming 5 regular season games, 3 in the conf tourney, and only 1 NCAA game, he'll finish at 172, good for 2nd behind his dad. Wow.

007Zag
02-14-2014, 08:09 AM
Going through the stats, I'm not sure how reasonable it is to assume 2 steals per game, though, since he's averaging 1.69 in WCC play, and 1.53 per game in OOC. If those trends hold, the Zags would need 2 games in the NCAA tournament to get David to the 170 steal threshold.

NumberCruncher
02-14-2014, 10:11 AM
http://i.imgur.com/TPF78zu.gif

Here's a snip from my spreadsheet after feeding in last nights box score.

gamagin
02-14-2014, 11:15 AM
http://i.imgur.com/TPF78zu.gif Here's a snip from my spreadsheet after feeding in last nights box score.

Thanks Crunch.

For perspective, it would be nice to note minutes or games played (whichever paints the clearer pix here). I think JStocks, for e.g., was a starter for 3.5 years, stepp, santangelo, 4 yrs., KP will be 4, I think.

IN contrast, I think. DS had limited (or much less, sub status) p.t. For 3 years and the start this year. Big difference. Makes accomplishments even more amazing here, IMO, if this is true. Fwiw.

Thanks,

former1dog
02-14-2014, 11:31 AM
Thanks Crunch.

For perspective, it would be nice to note minutes or games played (whichever paints the clearer pix here). I think JStocks, for e.g., was a starter for 3.5 years, stepp, santangelo, 4 yrs., KP will be 4, I think.

IN contrast, I think. DS had limited (or much less, sub status) p.t. For 3 years and the start this year. Big difference. Makes accomplishments even more amazing here, IMO, if this is true. Fwiw.

Thanks,

I'm probably wrong, but I thought I had heard John was a 3 year starter. No matter. Impressive career at GU either way.

NumberCruncher
02-14-2014, 11:50 AM
Thanks Crunch.

For perspective, it would be nice to note minutes or games played (whichever paints the clearer pix here). I think JStocks, for e.g., was a starter for 3.5 years, stepp, santangelo, 4 yrs., KP will be 4, I think.

IN contrast, I think. DS had limited (or much less, sub status) p.t. For 3 years and the start this year. Big difference. Makes accomplishments even more amazing here, IMO, if this is true. Fwiw.

Thanks,

Problem is, Gam, I don't have all the data for all of those players.

With the data I do have:

John Stockton is number one in both assists and steals per minute.

David is number two in steals frequency, with Quentin Hall the only one remotely close.

David was number two in assist frequency going in to this season. His assist frequency is very close to Stepp, Dickau, Santangelo and Pargo (in that order). His assist frequency is lower this season, so he has slipped from second to sixth. Nobody else is close. So he could end up anywhere from second to sixth.

jim77
02-14-2014, 11:52 AM
I'd be surprised if ANY Zag has more assists per minute played than David. The guy is a big man's dream. He may be a liability sometimes on "D" but, the guy just doesn't get rattled.

I remember last year when he lead us back in the Whichta ST game.....the kid just has nerves of steel. I think I know why too, when you play BB with one of the toughest/talented guys to ever put on a BB uniform (DAD)....theres not much that is gonna faze you. Everbody keeps saying we are a guard oriented team....I disagree, we are a SD and PK oriented team and should be...ask Memphis how much trouble we are. DS just enhances our bigs that much more. If anyone thinks we'll 3 ball our way to the final 4 ...they are kidding themselves. DS changes the game when hes on the floor, why? The defenders know hes a great passer....but it gets even better....they also know he'll occasionally try to force passes that he shouldn't. DS's THREAT to even try the pass puts that much more stress on the defense. You get lazy on "D" and Mr. Stockton will carve you up. The progress this kid has made is remarkable.

If I had to chose 1 player from the last 10 years to quarterback the last play of a final 4 game...I'd choose DS....not because hes the best.....but, because hes the least affected by the pressure......and the Butler Push-off doesn't count.


Correction....looks like Dad connected more often on assists....Thanks NumberCrunchers....good company right there.

gamagin
02-14-2014, 12:03 PM
+1


Problem is, Gam, I don't have all the data for all of those players.

With the data I do have:

John Stockton is number one in both assists and steals per minute.

David is number two in steals frequency, with Quentin Hall the only one remotely close.

David was number two in assist frequency going in to this season. His assist frequency is very close to Stepp, Dickau, Santangelo and Pargo (in that order). His assist frequency is lower this season, so he has slipped from second to sixth. Nobody else is close. So he could end up anywhere from second to sixth.

Thanks Crunch.

MODS -- how can Crunch get these numbers ? Link, please.

gamagin
02-14-2014, 12:52 PM
MODS:

with both KP and DS climbing into ever thinner air in the annals of GU basketball greatness, would it be possible to put a sticky up for the rest of the season ?

It sure beats having to search for it in the mud, the blood and the tears.

thanks,

gozagswoohoo
02-14-2014, 01:09 PM
MODS:

with both KP and DS climbing into ever thinner air in the annals of GU basketball greatness, would it be possible to put a sticky up for the rest of the season ?

It sure beats having to search for it in the mud, the blood and the tears.

thanks,




*waving magic wand*
SHAZAM!!

gozagswoohoo
02-14-2014, 01:11 PM
+1



Thanks Crunch.

MODS -- how can Crunch get these numbers ? Link, please.



Has this link been shared yet? This is my 'go to' site for in-depth stats.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/gonzaga/matt-santangelo

gamagin
02-14-2014, 02:01 PM
Has this link been shared yet? This is my 'go to' site for in-depth stats http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/gonzaga/matt-santangelo

thanks !

Oregonzagnut
02-14-2014, 02:28 PM
17 more steals and John and David will be ranked #1 and #2 in career steals at Gonzaga.

Very cool.

Birddog
02-14-2014, 03:00 PM
Been wondering lately. Is DS the fastest guy on the team? It sure seems like maybe he is while watching him on a break.

gamagin
02-15-2014, 07:37 AM
Been wondering lately. Is DS the fastest guy on the team? It sure seems like maybe he is while watching him on a break.

DS may be quickest, w/ ball in hand. My (s.w.a) guess is GBj likely the fastest sprinter. Fwiw.

BTB
02-15-2014, 03:20 PM
DS may be quickest, w/ ball in hand. My (s.w.a) guess is GBj likely the fastest sprinter. Fwiw.

Gerard?

exclusivelee
02-15-2014, 03:33 PM
Gerard?

agreed

NumberCruncher
02-15-2014, 08:53 PM
They put up an inaccurate current steals list on the telecast tonight, leaving Raivio off. Then Heister has the nerve to compliment his stats guy on the air. And these people get paid to do this? Bush league amateurs if you ask me.

SWZag
02-16-2014, 08:59 AM
NC, you're the best at this, so maybe I'll relieve myself of the duties and you can keep us informed on all the numbers from here on out?

Following the Memphis, Pepperdine and LMU games, where David had a combined 14 assists and 4 steals (and only 3 turnovers).

Remained in 6th place in assists,
Moved up to 6th and tied with Steven Gray 155 steals.

Kevin Pangos remained at 9th place but now has 336, 3 short of Gray. Following the Memphis, Pep and LMU games, where Kevin had a combined 10 assists.

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 382
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Steven Gray – 339
9. Kevin Pangos – 336
10. Geoff Goss – 324

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. Doug Spradley – 159
5. Derek Raivio – 156
6t. Steven Gray - 155
6t. David Stockton - 155
8. Blake Stepp – 152
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131

exclusivelee
02-16-2014, 02:16 PM
Following the Memphis, Pepperdine and LMU games, where David had a combined 14 assists and 4 steals (and only 3 turnovers).

Remained in 6th place in assists,
Moved up to 6th and tied with Steven Gray 155 steals.

Kevin Pangos remained at 9th place but now has 336, 3 short of Gray. Following the Memphis, Pep and LMU games, where Kevin had a combined 10 assists.

+ Pangos had a steal vs LMU, moving him to 123 career steals & a tie for #11 with Elias Harris

WBM
02-17-2014, 10:12 AM
Do these career stats take only regular season, or do stats accrued in games in the WCC/NCAA tournament count?

NumberCruncher
02-17-2014, 11:25 AM
Do these career stats take only regular season, or do stats accrued in games in the WCC/NCAA tournament count?

Both regular season and postseason.

WBM
02-17-2014, 02:09 PM
Then I am hopeful that David averages about 2 steals a game til it's over. It'd be pretty neat to see John Stockton at #1 and David Stockton at #2 in the steals list.

4 games for regular season, 3 games for the WCC tourney, and 2 games for the NCAA tourney... Stocks averages 1.6spg this year, and he'd need to average 1.8 over 9 games to take the #2 spot. That'd be really cool!

Zag79
02-21-2014, 12:55 AM
Came in as a walk on and is leaving as a boss. Who really thought this guy would make such a mark on the program? I sure didn't, and now I love to watch his game. Big time Zag and deserves a lot of credit!

007Zag
02-26-2014, 05:35 AM
So David's now in 5th all time for steals at 157, and needs 14 more in the remaining 6 games (at least) to take sole possession of 2nd place behind his dad. That's gonna be tough but I think he can do it.

gamagin
02-26-2014, 07:28 AM
+1


So David's now in 5th all time for steals at 157, and needs 14 more in the remaining 6 games (at least) to take sole possession of 2nd place behind his dad. That's gonna be tough but I think he can do it.

Thanks.
If I were king I'd do a comp between DS's stats and his dad's while at GU. I " think" DS's stats came with considerably less p.t. But not positive. I think JS became a starter as a soph, or early on in year 2. Side by side I wonder which, shall we say, performed at a higher level. My guess is inside the family, they know. Even if it's just a bet for beers at stake. A very competitive environment.

In any event, neither one of them was considered a prize of any kind upon high school graduation and yet they excelled way beyond expectations. Amazing story.

The very heart and soul of the GU program and everything good that it represents, I believe.

wnczagfan
02-28-2014, 05:30 AM
Can somebody update the chart, please? Thanks!

SWZag
02-28-2014, 06:24 AM
Following the BYU, San Diego and Pacific games, where David had a combined 12 assists and 5 steals.

Remained in 6th place in assists,
Moved up to 4th in steals, passing Gray, Raivio and Spradley. Definitely not out of reach of 2nd. Only needs 11 more to claim sole possession.

Kevin Pangos moved up to 8th place, passing Gray. He now has 346 assists. Following the BYU, San Diego and Pacific games, where Kevin had a combined 10 assists. Pangos is just out of the top 10 in steals, with 123.

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 394
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Kevin Pangos – 346
9. Steven Gray – 339
10. Geoff Goss – 324

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. David Stockton - 160
5. Doug Spradley – 159
6. Derek Raivio – 156
7. Steven Gray - 155
8. Blake Stepp – 152
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131

exclusivelee
02-28-2014, 08:52 AM
New Top 10 Chart:

Most Games Contributing to Wins:

http://i.imgur.com/QTFRgyB.png (http://i.imgur.com/QTFRgyB.png)


Yeah, you're reading that correctly, David has played in 107 games in which Gonzaga has won. #2 overrall. David has only missed 1 game as a Gonzaga player (but Zags lost that game). Elias missed 2 games (both wins). Cory Violette missed 1 game (which was a loss)

Sam at #6 with 105 wins

Kevin Pangos at #25 with 82 wins

I cannot rank anyone below 79 wins as a Zag due to insufficient data (Zags won 79 combined games from 1946 to 1950 but I don't have player data for those years).

In the 1992-93 season, Jon Kinloch missed 2 games, so depending on which games he missed, he could have contributed in 80, 81, or 82 wins

former1dog
02-28-2014, 09:27 AM
Following the BYU, San Diego and Pacific games, where David had a combined 12 assists and 5 steals.

Remained in 6th place in assists,
Moved up to 4th in steals, passing Gray, Raivio and Spradley. Definitely not out of reach of 2nd. Only needs 11 more to claim sole possession.

Kevin Pangos moved up to 8th place, passing Gray. He now has 346 assists. Following the BYU, San Diego and Pacific games, where Kevin had a combined 10 assists. Pangos is just out of the top 10 in steals, with 123.

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 394
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Kevin Pangos – 346
9. Steven Gray – 339
10. Geoff Goss – 324

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. David Stockton - 160
5. Doug Spradley – 159
6. Derek Raivio – 156
7. Steven Gray - 155
8. Blake Stepp – 152
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131

I was hoping he would get to 2nd in steals behind his Dad. Looks pretty unrealistic at this point.

exclusivelee
02-28-2014, 09:42 AM
I was hoping he would get to 2nd in steals behind his Dad. Looks pretty unrealistic at this point.

David had 3 steals last night and 15 total steals in his last 8 games

Zags play at a minimum of 2 more games. If Zags win the WCC tournament, Zags automatically get to play in the NCAA tournement, which means that there would be at least 5 more games remaining:

1. @ Saint Mary's
2. Quarterfinals of WCC tourney
3. Semifinals of WCC tourney
4. Finals of WCC tourney
5. Round 1 of NCAA tourney

It is attainable. Needs at least 2 steals per game if we play at least 5 more games

zag67
02-28-2014, 10:42 AM
And when we get to the second round, we have one more game..........

Zagdawg
02-28-2014, 11:29 AM
I would like to see him just get 11 steals on Saturday and move right into 2nd place ;)

sittingon50
02-28-2014, 12:01 PM
Think I would enjoy that outcome, dawg!

gamagin
03-01-2014, 04:28 PM
+1


New Top 10 Chart:

Most Games Contributing to Wins:

http://i.imgur.com/QTFRgyB.png (http://i.imgur.com/QTFRgyB.png)


Yeah, you're reading that correctly, David has played in 107 games in which Gonzaga has won. #2 overrall. David has only missed 1 game as a Gonzaga player (but Zags lost that game). Elias missed 2 games (both wins). Cory Violette missed 1 game (which was a loss)

Sam at #6 with 105 wins

Kevin Pangos at #25 with 82 wins

I cannot rank anyone below 79 wins as a Zag due to insufficient data (Zags won 79 combined games from 1946 to 1950 but I don't have player data for those years).

In the 1992-93 season, Jon Kinloch missed 2 games, so depending on which games he missed, he could have contributed in 80, 81, or 82 wins

interesting factoid, lee. thanks.

Blackbeard
03-01-2014, 06:56 PM
New Top 10 Chart:

Most Games Contributing to Wins:

http://i.imgur.com/QTFRgyB.png (http://i.imgur.com/QTFRgyB.png)


Yeah, you're reading that correctly, David has played in 107 games in which Gonzaga has won. #2 overrall. David has only missed 1 game as a Gonzaga player (but Zags lost that game). Elias missed 2 games (both wins). Cory Violette missed 1 game (which was a loss)

Sam at #6 with 105 wins

Kevin Pangos at #25 with 82 wins

I cannot rank anyone below 79 wins as a Zag due to insufficient data (Zags won 79 combined games from 1946 to 1950 but I don't have player data for those years).

In the 1992-93 season, Jon Kinloch missed 2 games, so depending on which games he missed, he could have contributed in 80, 81, or 82 wins

How are you ranking this. It looks like a mix between games won games lost and percentage? Crazy that he may end up playing more games than anybody else on the list.

exclusivelee
03-01-2014, 07:19 PM
How are you ranking this. It looks like a mix between games won games lost and percentage? Crazy that he may end up playing more games than anybody else on the list.

Ranked by games played in which the team won

Blackbeard
03-01-2014, 07:25 PM
Ranked by games played in which the team won

Thanks. I see that now. Need to get off my cell phone. Cheers

zaguarxj
03-01-2014, 08:16 PM
On TV, Stockton's arms/hands look like they hang down to his knees. I wouldn't be surprised if he had the biggest hands on the team. Combined with his incredible athleticism, it's no surprise he has so many steals, career-wise. I think his athleticism is seriously underrated on this board.

Oregonzagnut
03-01-2014, 08:37 PM
Sam Dower would have been #1 on the games list if he didn't hurt his back.

kclubfounder
03-01-2014, 08:42 PM
Sam Dower would have been #1 on the games list if he didn't hurt his back.

So David should be #2 on the "games" list instead of #1 if this season works out the way most of us want it to work out.

Is that your point?

TravelinZag
03-02-2014, 06:23 AM
Thanks, -lee. DS will top list if Zags win first WCC tournament game. Curious: what were John Stockton's numbers?

avid-zag-fan
03-02-2014, 06:52 AM
Erroll Knight 1993-97?

gonwick
03-02-2014, 07:33 AM
I really don't understand the games played in and won stat. He and Sam are identical, except Sam misssed games for injury. It is a function of the class in which they came. I don't quite understand why Stockton, amongst all the geat zags, has a thread lionizing him. I don't remember a thread like this for Elias, for example. By the way, I bet the zags have a 100% win pct when Bhaskar plays. Get that guy on the floor.

exclusivelee
03-02-2014, 07:42 AM
Thanks, -lee. DS will top list if Zags win first WCC tournament game. Curious: what were John Stockton's numbers?

It may be too difficult for me to find John Stockton's

Finding an article which says which games John missed is hard to discover.

But for reference, the graduading class of 1984 only won 64 of their 109 games

vandalzag
03-02-2014, 07:44 AM
I really don't understand the games played in and won stat. He and Sam are identical, except Sam misssed games for injury. It is a function of the class in which they came. I don't quite understand why Stockton, amongst all the geat zags, has a thread lionizing him. I don't remember a thread like this for Elias, for example. By the way, I bet the zags have a 100% win pct when Bhaskar plays. Get that guy on the floor.

While I do not proclaim to read the mind of the OP. I will guess. The thread was started in response to the constant backlash against DS, showing proof that playing time was not only earned but was also productive. In regards to lionizing him, I do not think that is the point. Rather celebrating a less than heralded recruit, who was given nothing but a chance and ended up maximizing his abilities and working his way up the statistical charts next to other great Zags. Does not make him better just showing he belongs, yet you will find a long list of people who still disagree based on the "eye test" or some other non-factual based opinion. As far as the wins goes, the wins were not solely due to him, nor were the losses. The chart just shows that he was playing in the all the games. This is important because you do not play if you are not good enough.

exclusivelee
03-02-2014, 07:48 AM
I really don't understand the games played in and won stat. He and Sam are identical, except Sam misssed games for injury. It is a function of the class in which they came.
David missed 1 game his freshman year (Zags lost that game)

Sam missed 2 games this year (Zags won both games)


I don't remember a thread like this for Elias, for example.
I dont think anyone was tracking games won/played for Elias last year


By the way, I bet the zags have a 100% win pct when Bhaskar plays. Get that guy on the floor.
Brian Bhaskar is statistically irrevalent in this study with how little of games he has played

exclusivelee
03-02-2014, 08:27 AM
If you want any consolation prize, Kevin Pangos has played in all 99 of Gonzaga's games since he came to Gonzaga, participating in 83 wins

83 wins in first 3 years is most by any Zag. Adam Morrison, Sam Dower, and David Stockton are in that club

By the end of next season, Kevin Pangos could have played in the most winning games as a Zag

GoZags
03-02-2014, 08:39 AM
If you want any consolation prize, Kevin Pangos has played in all 99 of Gonzaga's games since he came to Gonzaga, participating in 83 wins

83 wins in first 3 years is most by any Zag. Adam Morrison, Sam Dower, and David Stockton are in that club

By the end of next season, Kevin Pangos could have played in the most winning games as a Zag

Would love to see KP end THIS year in the high 80's or low 90's. Now wouldn't that be something.

gamagin
03-02-2014, 09:24 AM
+1


While I do not proclaim to read the mind of the OP. I will guess. The thread was started in response to the constant backlash against DS, showing proof that playing time was not only earned but was also productive. In regards to lionizing him, I do not think that is the point. Rather celebrating a less than heralded recruit, who was given nothing but a chance and ended up maximizing his abilities and working his way up the statistical charts next to other great Zags. Does not make him better just showing he belongs, yet you will find a long list of people who still disagree based on the "eye test" or some other non-factual based opinion. As far as the wins goes, the wins were not solely due to him, nor were the losses. The chart just shows that he was playing in the all the games. This is important because you do not play if you are not good enough.

A lot of folks wasted a lot of years advancing all kinds of theories about why this kid didn't belong. Fortunately, he has proven them all wrong. By executing at a very high level with leadership, talent and savvy.

But it's sad that the hangover, the poison, that went with the largely ego-driven campaigns against everything about this kid, from heritage to height, seems to persist.

It's a shame a small cadre of would-be fans seemed to have missed the talent and excitement this kid brought to the program despite having five years to just look and see what was happening; what was developing; the incredible sports story this kid put together for the enjoyment of all.

If his name was Bob Smith, I think there would be celebration. Regardless, the accomplishments will be secure in the record books somewhere near the top with the best of the best for decades to come. Well deserved, well earned and well played.

MEZAG
03-02-2014, 09:40 AM
well said

GoZags
03-02-2014, 10:07 AM
I agree with gamagin's post.


+1

A lot of folks wasted a lot of years advancing all kinds of theories about why this kid didn't belong. Fortunately, he has proven them all wrong. By executing at a very high level with leadership, talent and savvy.

But it's sad that the hangover, the poison, that went with the largely ego-driven campaigns against everything about this kid, from heritage to height, seems to persist.

It's a shame a small cadre of would-fans seemed to have missed the talent and excitement this kid brought to the program despite having five years to just look and see what was happening; what was developing; the incredible sports story this kid put together for the enjoyment of all.

If his name was Bob Smith, I think there would be celebration. Regardless, the accomplishments will be secure in the record books somewhere near the top with the best of the best for decades to come. Well deserved, well earned and well played.

exclusivelee
03-02-2014, 10:14 AM
At the Saint Mary's game, David Stockton added 5 assists & 1 steal. Kevin Pangos added 2 assists & 2 steals.

I added Draino and Bell to the list below for comparison. I think it's within reach after the next 2 years that Draino could be top 10 in both. Most likely not for Bell, though

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 399
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Kevin Pangos – 348
9. Steven Gray – 339
10. Geoff Goss – 324
11. Don Baldwin – 313
12. Jim McPhee – 304
13. Kyle Dixon – 303
14. Dan Dickau – 299
15. Jamie Dudley – 293
NR. Gary Bell – 182
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 119

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. David Stockton - 161
5. Doug Spradley – 159
6. Derek Raivio – 156
7. Steven Gray - 155
8. Blake Stepp – 152
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131
11. Kevin Pangos – 125
12. Elias Harris – 123
13. Jeff Condill – 116
14. Matt Santangelo – 115
15. Mike Nilson – 112
NR. Gary Bell – 75
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 50

gonwick
03-02-2014, 11:19 AM
David missed 1 game his freshman year (Zags lost that game)

Sam missed 2 games this year (Zags won both games)


I dont think anyone was tracking games won/played for Elias last year


Brian Bhaskar is statistically irrevalent in this study with how little of games he has played

The pct win reference for bhaskar was to emphasize the importance of context. When he sees the floor, the zags have a 100% win pct. Note this was in reference to pct, not total games played. It bums me out that this stat is used to show how awesome DS is when it is basically a reflection of the program during his tenure. Does one player being on the floor mean that's why the game was won or simply that they were on the floor? Even if it were to be taken that way, why would it not be a representation of how great Sam is? I don't think it makes ds more valuable than Sam, for example, to note that gu beat two wcc foes when Sam was out. I undertand that ds gets more attention, positive and negative, than he would if he wasn't the son of the most famous player in the program, one who is still likely important in recruiting guards to the program. Choosing to be a legacy is fraught with peril. I feel that, were he another player, the conversation would be more about the team. That's why I look forward to next year when these conversations will end. I think a lot of these stats, as mentioned above, are put forth to counterbalance the intangible concerns of nepotism/legacy. We will never know how the three guard lineup would have been received with a different guard, but if it were meech, I can guess.

Zagdawg
03-02-2014, 12:32 PM
In previous years we talked about how great of a contributor Hart was as walkon initially--- it was not necessary to bring in so many stats to try to "prove" this to fans who could not figure it out because Harts father is not a Zag great. We could see he contributed and thats all that counted.

Hart--Stockton---or some other walk on---maybe Connor Griffin-- the Zags seem to be able to find solid walk ons who can contribute.

It's good to see and hopefully will continue--it has been mentioned before --it will be great for fans to be able to get back to celebrating our walkons and get away from trying to discredit our players because they are related to another great Zag player.

Go Zags

wnczagfan
03-02-2014, 02:00 PM
+1



A lot of folks wasted a lot of years advancing all kinds of theories about why this kid didn't belong. Fortunately, he has proven them all wrong. By executing at a very high level with leadership, talent and savvy.

But it's sad that the hangover, the poison, that went with the largely ego-driven campaigns against everything about this kid, from heritage to height, seems to persist.

It's a shame a small cadre of would-be fans seemed to have missed the talent and excitement this kid brought to the program despite having five years to just look and see what was happening; what was developing; the incredible sports story this kid put together for the enjoyment of all.

If his name was Bob Smith, I think there would be celebration. Regardless, the accomplishments will be secure in the record books somewhere near the top with the best of the best for decades to come. Well deserved, well earned and well played.

+1

Nicely stated, Gamagin!

Birddog
03-02-2014, 04:34 PM
In previous years we talked about how great of a contributor Hart was as walkon initially--- it was not necessary to bring in so many stats to try to "prove" this to fans who could not figure it out because Harts father is not a Zag great. We could see he contributed and thats all that counted.
Well I remember plenty of criticism on this board about the number of minutes Hart was logging starting in his Sophomore year and really crescendoing in his Junior year. There was some at the beginning last year but it tapered off. I suspect many of his critics were/are the same as Stockton's critics.

vandalzag
03-02-2014, 07:35 PM
Well I remember plenty of criticism on this board about the number of minutes Hart was logging starting in his Sophomore year and really crescendoing in his Junior year. There was some at the beginning last year but it tapered off. I suspect many of his critics were/are the same as Stockton's critics.

Well Ya But.....

gamagin
03-03-2014, 10:53 AM
Pretty amazing thing going on here. DS, KP, GBj & KD are climbing quickly into the top of the top in these categories. all on the same team at the same time. very likely, barring injuries, at least two of them will wind up in top 10 in the history of the school. but they are teammates. now.

with three of them having the rest of this year and a full year next year to keep going without DS. historic.

U Zig, I Zag
03-03-2014, 02:26 PM
Can you imagine if Stockton was 6'3" and could shoot the 3?

I am going to miss him. He has some off nights, no worse than anyone else though. Some argument as to how he handles some of the bigger guards on BCS teams, but for the most part he plays to the best of his ability and his smarts and daring take him to another level, IMHO.

He's fiery and (I hope) a strong leader to the rest of the guys.

WBM
03-03-2014, 02:39 PM
So if I'm not mistaken, DS is at 161 steals. He needs 10 more steals to claim the sole #2 spot. Not impossible!

SWZag
03-03-2014, 02:58 PM
So if I'm not mistaken, DS is at 161 steals. He needs 10 more steals to claim the sole #2 spot. Not impossible!

You're not mistaken. Would be great to see happen.

gamagin
03-03-2014, 03:47 PM
+1


Can you imagine if Stockton was 6'3" and could shoot the 3? I am going to miss him. He has some off nights, no worse than anyone else though. Some argument as to how he handles some of the bigger guards on BCS teams, but for the most part he plays to the best of his ability and his smarts and daring take him to another level, IMHO. He's fiery and (I hope) a strong leader to the rest of the guys.

as long as we're imagining, imagine it was about this time of year before JStocks reached the national spotlight DS has been in front of his whole career. I think it was a regional tourney in Portland in which he was voted mvp for his flashy passing and scoring performances. The stories about this gonzaga phenom essentially became national story fairly late in his last season.

He finished the season (Big SKy Conference ?) strong, too, and in a matter of a month or so later wound up a first team UPI all America (what is now the coaches poll) selection and wound up a surprise first round draft pick by Jazz' coach Frank Layton.

Everyone thought Layton was nuts. Layton later explained that he selected Stocks for three reasons: "He (like Layton) is Catholic, he laughs at my jokes and his dad owns a bar."

The rest is history. the point here is in many ways, a whole other season is just bout to launch. and another after that. and anything can happen.

B Wayne
03-03-2014, 06:44 PM
OK here's a great David Stockton story that ties in to this board. Perhaps not as funny as the time he hit the national press for 15 minutes when he gestured "big cajones" on the bench against Illinois his freshman year, but I think the story is funny nonetheless

First start 30 years ago in 1984 when his dad played at GU. I was a student and watching John was my study break. You could get in free as a student, sit 2 or 3 rows from the court and watch the greatest point guard ever play. I tried telling classmates and family members they have to come watch this guy John Stockton play. My friends and family members considered themselves basketball experts and all walked away unimpressed. Classmates from New York said Pearl Washington would eat him up, friends from Chicago said there were high school players there that were better. I also couldn't believe the lack of press and attention he got right in Spokane. Very few people knew in Spokane knew about him, far less thought he was any good.

In May just before graduation, John comes back after being the last cut from the 84 Olympic team and he's at Jack and Dan's. One of my New York classmates said, that is what he'll be doing the rest of his life, shooting pool here in Spokane and talking about the time he almost made the Olympic team.

Fast forward 25 years to this board. His son is a freshman on the team. Like his dad, David gets very little notice from other colleges. Like his Dad he is small, has big hands and great court vision and is tough as nails. I started cracking up when i heard on this board his freshman year all the same I heard about his Dad. Too small etc. Keep in mind 1)his Dad made GIANT steps each year here at GU. Coach Fitz and others have said that. Keep in mind 2) DNA . There were posters here who criticized even considering the possibility that David Stockton was going to be a good player.

Their argument was that the only reason people were talking about David was because of his last name. They argued that if his last name was Smith, their would be no discussion about such a low level player who belonged at Whitworth. I just shook my head and thought that's the point, YOU SHOULD CONSIDER HIS LAST NAME! Look how much he can improve each year just like his father did!

gamagin
03-04-2014, 07:04 AM
+1

OK here's a great David Stockton story that ties in to this board. Perhaps not as funny as the time he hit the national press for 15 minutes when he gestured "big cajones" on the bench against Illinois his freshman year, but I think the story is funny nonetheless

First start 30 years ago in 1984 when his dad played at GU. I was a student and watching John was my study break. You could get in free as a student, sit 2 or 3 rows from the court and watch the greatest point guard ever play. I tried telling classmates and family members they have to come watch this guy John Stockton play. My friends and family members considered themselves basketball experts and all walked away unimpressed. Classmates from New York said Pearl Washington would eat him up, friends from Chicago said there were high school players there that were better. I also couldn't believe the lack of press and attention he got right in Spokane. Very few people knew in Spokane knew about him, far less thought he was any good.

In May just before graduation, John comes back after being the last cut from the 84 Olympic team and he's at Jack and Dan's. One of my New York classmates said, that is what he'll be doing the rest of his life, shooting pool here in Spokane and talking about the time he almost made the Olympic team.

Fast forward 25 years to this board. His son is a freshman on the team. Like his dad, David gets very little notice from other colleges. Like his Dad he is small, has big hands and great court vision and is tough as nails. I started cracking up when i heard on this board his freshman year all the same I heard about his Dad. Too small etc. Keep in mind 1)his Dad made GIANT steps each year here at GU. Coach Fitz and others have said that. Keep in mind 2) DNA . There were posters here who criticized even considering the possibility that David Stockton was going to be a good player.

Their argument was that the only reason people were talking about David was because of his last name. They argued that if his last name was Smith, their would be no discussion about such a low level player who belonged at Whitworth. I just shook my head and thought that's the point, YOU SHOULD CONSIDER HIS LAST NAME! Look how much he can improve each year just like his father did!

Re JS getting cut from the Olympic team: One story had JS as the last cut by coach bobby knight, who selected his Indiana star & golden boy Steve Alford, instead.

Both young men went on to the NBA and one was there a couple years while the other went on to a record setting career, two Olympic gold medals, including a stint on the dream team, among other things, and now is enshrined in the NBA hall of fame. Every single bit of adversity this guy faced, every step of the way, he turned to his advantage by out working, outplaying, out hustling and ultimately out smarting his adversaries. Sound familiar?

Birddog
03-04-2014, 09:58 AM
I'm pretty sure Stockton was not the last cut on the 84 team. Actually I think he was one of 4 including Barkley that was cut when they reduced the roster from 20 to 16. They later pared down to 12 I think. It is true that Knight kept Alford over JS, and JS might have been the last guard cut. In addition to Barkley and Stockton, another guy that didn't make the team was Malone. Imagine that, three guys that later were named to the top 50 all time NBA players list and who among them hold numerous NBA records and all were cut from the 84 team.

I read somewhere, some time back that when Barkley and Stockton were leaving the locker room after getting cut, Barkley was outside and a cab pulled up. Barkley asked JS if he was going to the airport and he said yes so Barkley said "get in". During the ride to the airport Barkley told Stockton to let it go because they would show Knight and Co that they had made a mistake.

gamagin
03-04-2014, 10:11 AM
I'm pretty sure Stockton was not the last cut on the 84 team. Actually I think he was one of 4 including Barkley that was cut when they reduced the roster from 20 to 16. They later pared down to 12 I think. It is true that Knight kept Alford over JS, and JS might have been the last guard cut. In addition to Barkley and Stockton, another guy that didn't make the team was Malone. Imagine that, three guys that later were named to the top 50 all time NBA players list and who among them hold numerous NBA records and all were cut from the 84 team.

I read somewhere, some time back that when Barkley and Stockton were leaving the locker room after getting cut, Barkley was outside and a cab pulled up. Barkley asked JS if he was going to the airport and he said yes so Barkley said "get in". During the ride to the airport Barkley told Stockton to let it go because they would show Knight and Co that they had made a mistake.

Bird: Jack told me about JS's experience. Never heard any of the above, so don't really know those stories. Both father and son said BK was straight and fair with them. Jack even said something like he'd do the same thing if he were coach. fwiw.

Zagceo
03-04-2014, 10:27 AM
I read somewhere, some time back that when Barkley and Stockton were leaving the locker room after getting cut, Barkley was outside and a cab pulled up. Barkley asked JS if he was going to the airport and he said yes so Barkley said "get in". During the ride to the airport Barkley told Stockton to let it go because they would show Knight and Co that they had made a mistake.

I've heard this story somewhere before I think it was from an interview with Barkley. Those slights can leave big chips that drive athletes. I mean Barkley was overlooked by many pros because of being undersized for his position.

I was living LA when JS was 2nd or 3rd year player for Utah and they came to town to play the lakers. JS layed something like 23 or 24 assists on Magic. Chick Hearn could not believe what he was seeing. I will never forget that game because imo thats the day that pro basketball fans were introduced to JS from Gonzaga University.

Birddog
03-04-2014, 10:31 AM
Barkley, always a quote machine is responsible for the airport story as I remember it. Barkley on at least one occasion stated that he didn't find fault with Knight's cutting him after the fact. He really didn't think he would make the team in the first place and he went to the Olympic tryouts to enhance his draft status.
I did find this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_United_States_men's_Olympic_basketball_team
and this:http://www.usab.com/mens/national/84_moly_trials_roster.html

SWZag
03-04-2014, 11:09 AM
I'm pretty sure Stockton was not the last cut on the 84 team. Actually I think he was one of 4 including Barkley that was cut when they reduced the roster from 20 to 16. They later pared down to 12 I think. It is true that Knight kept Alford over JS, and JS might have been the last guard cut. In addition to Barkley and Stockton, another guy that didn't make the team was Malone. Imagine that, three guys that later were named to the top 50 all time NBA players list and who among them hold numerous NBA records and all were cut from the 84 team.

I read somewhere, some time back that when Barkley and Stockton were leaving the locker room after getting cut, Barkley was outside and a cab pulled up. Barkley asked JS if he was going to the airport and he said yes so Barkley said "get in". During the ride to the airport Barkley told Stockton to let it go because they would show Knight and Co that they had made a mistake.

Tip-Off: How the 1984 NBA Draft Changed Basketball Forever (http://www.curledup.com/tipoff84.htm) Also from the taxi ride:


There is a classic line in the book when Terry Porter, Stockton, and Barkley find themselves sharing a taxi from Bloomington after being cut by Knight, and Stockton remarks that “he would love for one chance for the players in the van to challenge the players who made the team.”

Sounds like it was over a fish-sticks (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1345&dat=19910830&id=LVpYAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DvoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6508,4259825) lunch. (old article from 1991 by John Blanchette in the Spokesman Review - Chronicle)

Birddog
03-04-2014, 01:50 PM
Tip-Off: How the 1984 NBA Draft Changed Basketball Forever (http://www.curledup.com/tipoff84.htm) Also from the taxi ride:



Sounds like it was over a fish-sticks (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1345&dat=19910830&id=LVpYAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DvoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6508,4259825) lunch. (old article from 1991 by John Blanchette in the Spokesman Review - Chronicle)

Thanks, that was a good read.

SWZag
03-08-2014, 09:04 PM
Not sure this is a good time to post updated numbers (there is another thread about Stocks following tonights game).

- After the SCU game, where David had four assists and one steal. David passes 400 assists.
- Pangos finished with no assists and one steal, pulling within five of tying for 10th all-time in steals.
- Bell had two assists and one steal
- No change to Kyle's numbers.

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 403
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Kevin Pangos – 348
9. Steven Gray – 339
10. Geoff Goss – 324
11. Don Baldwin – 313
12. Jim McPhee – 304
13. Kyle Dixon – 303
14. Dan Dickau – 299
15. Jamie Dudley – 293
NR. Gary Bell – 184
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 119

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. David Stockton - 162
5. Doug Spradley – 159
6. Derek Raivio – 156
7. Steven Gray - 155
8. Blake Stepp – 152
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131
11. Kevin Pangos – 126
12. Elias Harris – 123
13. Jeff Condill – 116
14. Matt Santangelo – 115
15. Mike Nilson – 112
NR. Gary Bell – 76
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 50

wnczagfan
03-08-2014, 09:26 PM
Thanks for keeping this updated, SWZag!

LongIslandZagFan
03-08-2014, 09:44 PM
He still has a reasonable shot at being #2 on his own. But it is likely going to require getting past the first round of the NCAAs.

He has peaked on assists (ranking-wise) he'll finish at 6 and move down to 7 next year as KP passes him.

ZagaZags
03-08-2014, 09:57 PM
Not sure this is a good time to post updated numbers (there is another thread about Stocks following tonights game).

- After the SCU game, where David had four assists and one steal. David passes 400 assists.
- Pangos finished with no assists and one steal, pulling within five of tying for 10th all-time in steals.
- Bell had two assists and one steal
- No change to Kyle's numbers.

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 403
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Kevin Pangos – 348
9. Steven Gray – 339
10. Geoff Goss – 324
11. Don Baldwin – 313
12. Jim McPhee – 304
13. Kyle Dixon – 303
14. Dan Dickau – 299
15. Jamie Dudley – 293
NR. Gary Bell – 184
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 119

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. David Stockton - 162
5. Doug Spradley – 159
6. Derek Raivio – 156
7. Steven Gray - 155
8. Blake Stepp – 152
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131
11. Kevin Pangos – 126
12. Elias Harris – 123
13. Jeff Condill – 116
14. Matt Santangelo – 115
15. Mike Nilson – 112
NR. Gary Bell – 76
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 50

Thanks.

NumberCruncher
03-08-2014, 11:15 PM
Here's the updated top 10 list for steals in a season:

http://i.imgur.com/0gdB9hK.gif

David is now the second player to reach the 50 steal plateau multiple times.

Rio Runner
03-09-2014, 07:58 AM
Wow, John Stockton had over 100 steals in 1984? That is a remarkable stat. That has to be about 4 steals per game!

exclusivelee
03-09-2014, 09:27 AM
I think the media guides should start to expand to at least include the top 20

gamagin
03-09-2014, 09:35 AM
+1


I think the media guides should start to expand to at least include the top 20

Definitely. Got folks with plenty of p.t. left who are/will be, climbing this ladder.

Thanks, all your efforts here, too.

gamagin
03-09-2014, 09:38 AM
+1


Wow, John Stockton had over 100 steals in 1984? That is a remarkable stat. That has to be about 4 steals per game!

Check his NBA career + HOF stats. Second place in steals and assists behind JS isn't even close. He's miles ahead.

exclusivelee
03-09-2014, 09:54 AM
Btw anyone mind sharing a scan of a late 90s and early 90s media guide?

a scan of the record book pages would be helpful

I cant find any copy of a media guide prior to the 2004-05 edition, and I have each one from there up until 2013-14

hooter73
03-09-2014, 10:01 AM
9 More for David to own second place... crunch time!

gamagin
03-09-2014, 01:54 PM
+1


9 More for David to own second place... crunch time!

It's a great story unfolding here. For the ages. And all the Zags on the current team in the top 20 is another amazing, rare, phenomena, I believe.

exclusivelee
03-10-2014, 09:44 PM
Following the Saint Mary's game in Vegas:
Stocks had 4 assists & 1 steal
Pangos had 1 assist & 0 steals
Bell had 2 assists & 1 steal
Draino had 3 assists & 1 steal

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 407
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Kevin Pangos – 349
9. Steven Gray – 339
10. Geoff Goss – 324
11. Don Baldwin – 313
12. Jim McPhee – 304
13. Kyle Dixon – 303
14. Dan Dickau – 299
15. Jamie Dudley – 293
NR. Gary Bell – 186
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 122

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. David Stockton - 163
5. Doug Spradley – 159
6. Derek Raivio – 156
7. Steven Gray - 155
8. Blake Stepp – 152
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131
11. Kevin Pangos – 126
12. Elias Harris – 123
13. Jeff Condill – 116
14. Matt Santangelo – 115
15. Mike Nilson – 112
NR. Gary Bell – 77
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 51

007Zag
03-11-2014, 07:09 AM
Barring back-to-back four-steal games, GU's has to have a long run in the tourney for David to get to second place. Here's hoping!

LongIslandZagFan
03-11-2014, 07:22 AM
Hoping for a deep run. Looks like he may come up short.

007Zag
03-11-2014, 06:13 PM
Hey, three steals in the first half don't hurt!

Bocco
03-11-2014, 07:33 PM
3 steals and 7 assists against BYU - nice

Birddog
03-11-2014, 07:38 PM
And a blocked shot!

ZagaZags
03-11-2014, 07:42 PM
And a blocked shot!

I hope someone can post that blocked shot.

SWZag
03-11-2014, 08:01 PM
Following the BYU Championship game in Vegas:
- Stockton had 7 assists and 3 steals. Moved within 4 steals of tying for 2nd with Pargo and Bouldin!
- Pangos had 3 assists and no steals
- Bell had 1 assist and 1 steal
- Kyle had 1 assist and 3 steals

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 414
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Kevin Pangos – 352
9. Steven Gray – 339
10. Geoff Goss – 324
11. Don Baldwin – 313
12. Jim McPhee – 304
13. Kyle Dixon – 303
14. Dan Dickau – 299
15. Jamie Dudley – 293
NR. Gary Bell – 187
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 123

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. David Stockton - 166
5. Doug Spradley – 159
6. Derek Raivio – 156
7. Steven Gray - 155
8. Blake Stepp – 152
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131
11. Kevin Pangos – 126
12. Elias Harris – 123
13. Jeff Condill – 116
14. Matt Santangelo – 115
15. Mike Nilson – 112
NR. Gary Bell – 78
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 54

zagzilla
03-11-2014, 08:08 PM
Where is he at now on the all time blocks list? Added a big one tonight :-)

ZZ

wnczagfan
03-11-2014, 08:35 PM
I think of all the missed bunnies this year that should have been assists for him....3 in this latest game alone

ZagaZags
03-11-2014, 08:40 PM
Following the BYU Championship game in Vegas:
- Stockton had 7 assists and 3 steals. Moved within 4 steals of tying for 2nd with Pargo and Bouldin!
- Pangos had 3 assists and no steals
- Bell had 1 assist and 1 steal
- Kyle had 1 assist and 3 steals

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 414
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Kevin Pangos – 352
9. Steven Gray – 339
10. Geoff Goss – 324
11. Don Baldwin – 313
12. Jim McPhee – 304
13. Kyle Dixon – 303
14. Dan Dickau – 299
15. Jamie Dudley – 293
NR. Gary Bell – 187
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 123

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. David Stockton - 166
5. Doug Spradley – 159
6. Derek Raivio – 156
7. Steven Gray - 155
8. Blake Stepp – 152
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131
11. Kevin Pangos – 126
12. Elias Harris – 123
13. Jeff Condill – 116
14. Matt Santangelo – 115
15. Mike Nilson – 112
NR. Gary Bell – 78
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 54

Thanks for the update.

gamagin
03-11-2014, 08:41 PM
Where is he at now on the all time blocks list? Added a big one tonight :-)

ZZ

L. O L.

ZagaZags
03-11-2014, 08:42 PM
:roll:
Where is he at now on the all time blocks list? Added a big one tonight :-)

ZZ

:roll:

gamagin
03-11-2014, 09:10 PM
Thanks for the update.

W o w

5 steals from the old man. Amazing.

rawkmandale
03-17-2014, 12:54 AM
Bump de bump

gamagin
03-20-2014, 08:45 PM
Bump de bump

+1

gamagin
03-21-2014, 07:24 AM
If David continues to perform in the dance like he has been in the second half of the season, and we can win a few games in the process as a result, he very well could wind up in the same spot his dad wound up in: with a very good chance to see what he can do at the next level.

JS's history began on the national level at about this same time in his career. DS is already pretty well known. But his WCC play and this newer, larger stage, could catapult him over the top if and when he and the Zags exploit this opportunity and win this game today, and this tourney and move on up.

It's all right here and it's all right now. It's within our grasp. It's part of the promise. It's what all the Zags came to GU to become a part of and it is time to GO for IT. Once again.

bigblahla
03-21-2014, 07:58 AM
If David continues to perform in the dance like he has been in the second half of the season, and we can win a few games in the process as a result, he very well could wind up in the same spot his dad wound up in: with a very good chance to see what he can do at the next level.

JS's history began on the national level at about this same time in his career. DS is already pretty well known. But his WCC play and this newer, larger stage, could catapult him over the top if and when he and the Zags exploit this opportunity and win this game today, and this tourney and move on up.

It's all right here and it's all right now. It's within our grasp. It's part of the promise. It's what all the Zags came to GU to become of a part of and it is time to go for IT. Once again.

Right on gam.

go!! Zags!!!

exclusivelee
03-22-2014, 08:34 AM
Following the Oklahoma State game in NCAA tourney:
- Stockton had 3 assists and 0 steals
- Pangos had 3 assists and 3 steals
- Bell had 1 assist and 1 steal
- Kyle had 0 assists and 1 steal

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 417
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Kevin Pangos – 355
9. Steven Gray – 339
10. Geoff Goss – 324
11. Don Baldwin – 313
12. Jim McPhee – 304
13. Kyle Dixon – 303
14. Dan Dickau – 299
15. Jamie Dudley – 293
NR. Gary Bell – 188
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 123

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. David Stockton - 166
5. Doug Spradley – 159
6. Derek Raivio – 156
7. Steven Gray - 155
8. Blake Stepp – 152
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131
11. Kevin Pangos – 129
12. Elias Harris – 123
13. Jeff Condill – 116
14. Matt Santangelo – 115
15. Mike Nilson – 112
NR. Gary Bell – 79
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 55

SWZag
03-22-2014, 09:33 AM
Thanks Lee. I saw on the broadcast that they showed Stocks as being #5 on the all-times steals list. Wonder where they were getting their information.

gamagin
03-22-2014, 10:17 AM
thanks, lee.

cad/crunch/lee: any way to get a side by side graph, chart etc on GU's season and Arizona's ? whatever presents some kind of pix would be magnificent. I'm wondering about matchups, too. fwiw.

thanks,

exclusivelee
03-22-2014, 12:44 PM
Thanks Lee. I saw on the broadcast that they showed Stocks as being #5 on the all-times steals list. Wonder where they were getting their information.

I saw that too.

I suspect that steals number for Doug Spradley to be incorrect & adjusted up by 30+.

I would need some media guides prior to 2000 to confirm.

My data also shows that Geoff Goss should have 11 more assists than listed, but those putting together the media guides already have a lot of other errors.

NumberCruncher
03-22-2014, 01:04 PM
I saw that too.

I suspect that steals number for Doug Spradley to be incorrect & adjusted up by 30+.

I would need some media guides prior to 2000 to confirm.

My data also shows that Geoff Goss should have 11 more assists than listed, but those putting together the media guides already have a lot of other errors.


My best guess is that Spradley's total is correct but the list was never changed properly when Pargo and Bouldin passed him. This was all happening about the same time Raivio was being left off the list entirely. It's highly likely, though not certain that Spradley would have had at least one season over 50 steals if his career total was over 180.

The source data must exist somewhere. Maybe in the library?

SWZag
03-24-2014, 09:43 AM
One final time for 2013-2014. Congrats to Stocks for solidifying his place in the GU record books.

Following the Arizona game in NCAA tourney:
- Stockton had 6 assists and 1 steal
- Pangos had 0 assists and 0 steals
- Bell had 1 assist and 0 steals
- Kyle had 3 assists and 1 steal

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 423
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Kevin Pangos – 355
9. Steven Gray – 339
10. Geoff Goss – 324
11. Don Baldwin – 313
12. Jim McPhee – 304
13. Kyle Dixon – 303
14. Dan Dickau – 299
15. Jamie Dudley – 293
NR. Gary Bell – 189
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 126

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. David Stockton - 167
5. Doug Spradley – 159
6. Derek Raivio – 156
7. Steven Gray - 155
8. Blake Stepp – 152
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131
11. Kevin Pangos – 129
12. Elias Harris – 123
13. Jeff Condill – 116
14. Matt Santangelo – 115
15. Mike Nilson – 112
NR. Gary Bell – 79
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 56

thespywhozaggedme
03-24-2014, 10:02 AM
Outta curiosity got one for turnovers? Seriously. Thanks
One final time for 2013-2014. Congrats to Stocks for solidifying his place in the GU record books.

Following the Arizona game in NCAA tourney:
- Stockton had 6 assists and 1 steal
- Pangos had 0 assists and 0 steals
- Bell had 1 assist and 0 steals
- Kyle had 3 assists and 1 steal

Assists
1. Matt Santangelo – 668
2. Blake Stepp – 640
3. Jeremy Pargo – 589
4. John Stockton – 554
5. Matt Bouldin – 444
6. David Stockton - 423
7. Derek Raivio – 356
8. Kevin Pangos – 355
9. Steven Gray – 339
10. Geoff Goss – 324
11. Don Baldwin – 313
12. Jim McPhee – 304
13. Kyle Dixon – 303
14. Dan Dickau – 299
15. Jamie Dudley – 293
NR. Gary Bell – 189
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 126

Steals
1. John Stockton – 262
2t. Jeremy Pargo - 170
2t. Matt Bouldin - 170
4. David Stockton - 167
5. Doug Spradley – 159
6. Derek Raivio – 156
7. Steven Gray - 155
8. Blake Stepp – 152
9. Geoff Goss – 139
10. Tim Wagoner – 131
11. Kevin Pangos – 129
12. Elias Harris – 123
13. Jeff Condill – 116
14. Matt Santangelo – 115
15. Mike Nilson – 112
NR. Gary Bell – 79
NR. Kyle Dranginis – 56

exclusivelee
03-24-2014, 10:14 AM
Outta curiosity got one for turnovers? Seriously. Thanks

Media guide doesnt track turnovers

ZagLawGrad
03-24-2014, 10:22 AM
I enjoyed and supported DS during his tenure as a Zag.

But honestly, I feel that it's good he is now moving on. Time for some new players to get into the fray and leave their mark.

thespywhozaggedme
03-24-2014, 10:43 AM
Oh, okay. Thanks
Media guide doesnt track turnovers

hooter73
03-24-2014, 10:50 AM
Pangos needs 42 steals next year to take the #2 spot. Divided by 30 games (a nice round number), thats only 1.4 per game. he averaged 1.2 (40) as a freshman, then 1.5 (52) , then 1.0 (37). Its is very possible.

cjm720
03-24-2014, 11:12 AM
Congrats for the great career, David.

gamagin
03-24-2014, 04:23 PM
Thanks SW Zag (Lee, Cad and Crunch, too), for following up throughout the season on this and other Zags climbing the all time performance list.

rennis
03-24-2014, 05:06 PM
almost got to #2 in steals behind his Dad. That would have been awesome!! Alas, good stuff anyway.

Thanks Stocks, and Go Bulldogs!

wnczagfan
03-24-2014, 05:13 PM
almost got to #2 in steals behind his Dad. That would have been awesome!! Alas, good stuff anyway.

Thanks Stocks, and Go Bulldogs!


Enjoyed watching him play, and loved his "never give up" attitude. Great Zag!