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HillBillyZag
11-26-2013, 12:44 PM
Gonzaga lost to Dayton last night for two reasons? Both actually return to the source, Mark Few. I respect and admire all he has accomplished in his fifteen years here at Gonzaga. There is no doubt he recruits skilled and personable young men who well represent G.U. Values both on & off the court. On the other hand?, following this program for twelve years, I am forced to agree with others who have made this statement on more than a few occasions: Few is not a good X's & O's Coach. Last night was a good example. Secondly, at times he seems unable to make our kids extend the kind of "all hands on deck" effort that our opponents seem to possess? There it is, agree or not? 1. Our kids are not HUNGRY. 2. Our head Coach is a great human being and a great teacher of fundamentals. He is NOT a great GAME Coach.

webspinnre
11-26-2013, 12:51 PM
While I don't necessarily disagree on the first point, I'm not sure what specifically from last night's game would lead you to believe that he's not a great game coach. I do disagree on the second point, as I don't believe our problem last night was "heart" or "effort".

DixieZag
11-26-2013, 01:03 PM
While I don't necessarily disagree on the first point, I'm not sure what specifically from last night's game would lead you to believe that he's not a great game coach. I do disagree on the second point, as I don't believe our problem last night was "heart" or "effort".

The one single last thing I question is our team's will to win.

Questioning Few's in game decisions is valid, there have been some head scratching decisions - - but questioning the will of KP, GBJ et al seems pretty extreme.

primal23
11-26-2013, 01:11 PM
My kids are always hungry...





Sorry wrong topic...

cjm720
11-26-2013, 01:20 PM
5 for 19 from deep...enough said.

If he can't recruit and can't coach, how the heck does he have an 80% winning percentage?


Gonzaga lost to Dayton last night for two reasons? Both actually return to the source, Mark Few. I respect and admire all he has accomplished in his fifteen years here at Gonzaga. There is no doubt he recruits skilled and personable young men who well represent G.U. Values both on & off the court. On the other hand?, following this program for twelve years, I am forced to agree with others who have made this statement on more than a few occasions: Few is not a good X's & O's Coach. Last night was a good example. Secondly, at times he seems unable to make our kids extend the kind of "all hands on deck" effort that our opponents seem to possess? There it is, agree or not? 1. Our kids are not HUNGRY. 2. Our head Coach is a great human being and a great teacher of fundamentals. He is NOT a great GAME Coach.

bartruff1
11-26-2013, 01:22 PM
I won't characterize this thread, except to say , I have a completely different opinion.

jazzdelmar
11-26-2013, 01:30 PM
Gonzaga lost to Dayton last night for two reasons? Both actually return to the source, Mark Few. I respect and admire all he has accomplished in his fifteen years here at Gonzaga. There is no doubt he recruits skilled and personable young men who well represent G.U. Values both on & off the court. On the other hand?, following this program for twelve years, I am forced to agree with others who have made this statement on more than a few occasions: Few is not a good X's & O's Coach. Last night was a good example. Secondly, at times he seems unable to make our kids extend the kind of "all hands on deck" effort that our opponents seem to possess? There it is, agree or not? 1. Our kids are not HUNGRY. 2. Our head Coach is a great human being and a great teacher of fundamentals. He is NOT a great GAME Coach.


Bill, you can couch your very valid comment/question any way you want, you're still not going to get an objective discussion of this subject on this board. Just not going to happen as you are beginning to see.

webspinnre
11-26-2013, 01:44 PM
I specifically asked for an objective description of how he believes Few was a poor Xs and Os coach last night. And I have no idea how it would be objectively demonstrated that the players weren't "hungry", and that Few was responsible for that.

kitzbuel
11-26-2013, 01:54 PM
Bill, you can couch your very valid comment/question any way you want, you're still not going to get an objective discussion of this subject on this board. Just not going to happen as you are beginning to see.

Jazz, I beg to differ. I have seen nothing in the above posts that are preventing objective discussion. There are even posts that agree with some of the OP. There are also a number of replies with opinions differing from HB's. That is OK in an objective discussion.

I personally didn't see a lack of desire or heart, would have liked to seen better execution and focus in places though.

HillBillyZag
11-26-2013, 02:53 PM
Dear webspinner, I think at halftime,Dayton put together a plan that took advantage of their guards superior size/athleticism to force Gonzaga out of what had been a successful 2(tandem)-3 zone. Given this,they started to drive to the rim and we did not adjust?, committing at lest half a dozen unnecessary fouls. Our bigs neither boxed out well or gave weak side help at key points. On the other hand?, either our kids were given specific adjustments that they failed to carry out?, or the adjustments they made were not successful?, which would lead one to think that at least on this occasion?, yes, Archie Miller outcoached Mark Few.

jazzdelmar
11-26-2013, 03:30 PM
Jazz, I beg to differ. I have seen nothing in the above posts that are preventing objective discussion. There are even posts that agree with some of the OP. There are also a number of replies with opinions differing from HB's. That is OK in an objective discussion.

I personally didn't see a lack of desire or heart, would have liked to seen better execution and focus in places though.


Kitz, true enough. I see that. I'm just saying this subject is likely to end in antagonisms.

Zags11
11-26-2013, 03:44 PM
80%....smh. Everyone can be talked about. He makes mistakes and he is a good coach.

former1dog
11-26-2013, 03:45 PM
Yeah, I disagree about the hungry part, HBZ. They want to win badly.

MDABE80
11-26-2013, 03:46 PM
We got no bigs. Coach knew this for months..since Feb at least. Our problem is we got no bigs. Great 1-3 kids but....well....somebody knew this mess was headed right at us.....We'll win 20 with 4-5 guards/forward. When we face the taller teams, we have a pretty decent chance losing. Personnel is lacking. We know it. Can't lose Elias and KO at the same time and not have a major hole. I'm not sure something could have been done . But that "something" wasn't done and we're seeing selected consequences. And that's THAT! It's glaring.

I do think the rest of the team is working to capacity though. We lost last night when Dayton decided to pentrate instead of passing the ball around the perimeter. Interior defense is lacking. They knew it and they cashed in. What to do? Pay harder defense so they cannot penetrate. Rebounding?
Slow big men. Almost oafish. No athleticism. Sam tries but he's got very little help from the other side. Takes more than one unless that ONE is a spectacualar thlete.
So it goes. Love the team though. Next year, Few needs to plan ahead and go find some athletic bigs. Without some bigs, we're in trouble against teams that think rebounding is big deal. I do think Few should get the message. Dayton 's a good team but we had a 25 pt turnaround. By my stardards that's nearly unforgiveable........and it's Few who watched that catastrophe.

Ezag
11-26-2013, 03:47 PM
There's a diff between wanting to win and just being physically and athletically outmatched. These kids want to win

Zags11
11-26-2013, 03:50 PM
There's a diff between wanting to win and just being physically and athletically outmatched. These kids want to win

Agree

sullyzag66
11-26-2013, 03:59 PM
From Jim Meehan's article: (http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2013/nov/26/trouble-paradise-zags/)


Or, as Dower put it, “They wanted the rebounds more I guess.”

Oregonzagnut
11-26-2013, 04:03 PM
There's a diff between wanting to win and just being physically and athletically outmatched. These kids want to win

I agree.

Forget the kids for a second everyone.

What does it take to make Few hungry enough?

cjm720
11-26-2013, 04:26 PM
I agree.

Forget the kids for a second everyone.

What does it take to make Few hungry enough?

Can't tell if this is tongue-in-cheek

roxdoc
11-26-2013, 04:54 PM
Obviously every player (both sides) on the floor last night wanted to win. I think HillBilly is talking about motovation to operate far beyond the normal desire.

maynard g krebs
11-26-2013, 05:01 PM
I think at halftime,Dayton put together a plan that took advantage of their guards superior size/athleticism to force Gonzaga out of what had been a successful 2(tandem)-3 zone

I thought GU came out in man in the second half. I don't have tape so maybe I wasn't paying attention. I was mystified as to why GU abandoned the zone; I thought Dayton looked as clueless as the 2001 or 2 UW team looked against it. I know, offensive boards, but in fact the rebound numbers were actually worse in the second half becuase drivers got to the rim at will and the bigs had to leave their men to help anyway (and foul out).

I thought abandoning the zone lost the game; I don't remember Dayton solving it at all.

Coaches/x/o experts, what am I missing? Always looking to learn.

On the other topic, I thought the Zags competed really hard at the end, and disagree about will to win.

Hoopaholic
11-26-2013, 05:04 PM
abandon zone when they made adjustment and flared a shooter to the far corner and we could not cover it in the ameoba 1-3-1 and they started hitting the wide open shots

Oregonzagnut
11-26-2013, 06:11 PM
Can't tell if this is tongue-in-cheek

Kinda. I have had the same signature quote from Few for a couple years now. See below.

There can be no question the kids are hungry. Even Few does not question their hunger. The OP is wrong so I just shifted the question to Few, who is paid to get credit for wins and blame for losses. I want Few to stay for his entire career, but a pattern has been defined for me. Challenging teams to get hot from 3 is not working. Especially if we have no plan to defend against what we ask them to do. We must have a complete defensive strategy, inside and out or we will not elevate our program to an elite level. It is like we just keep challenging teams to shoot from three but then stare in disbelief when they get hot. Gonzaga can be beat with the three. Few will not focus on defend it either since it is the lowest % shot. Math does not lie. Fews logic is sound. But IMO, logic only may get you close but it will not win championships.

Philosophically, Few needs to learn (and trust) when to occasionally let go of the reigns and let the horses have their heads to run free. After we lost the 16 pt lead, Few clearly tightened his grip rather than loosening his grip. Like a calculator or mathematician, Few is rigid and dogmatic. Maybe coaches can predict his moves for the 2nd half. We seem to have bad 2nd halves. I think Fews strict adherence to his "recipe for success" is a double edged sword. We wouldn't be here without it, but it is inflexible and maybe becoming predictable. We need something beyond the sum of its parts.

Few is the only coach I want at Gonzaga. Not Pitino, not Calipari, no one! I love Few unconditionally like my own kids. But I hold my kids to a high level and I am not afraid to question my kids about improving an A- to an A+.

That is what we are talking about here, elevating through the law of diminishing returns where small improvements are barely noticed but failures have huge consequences. Few must figure out how to fine tune and put the finishing touches on the "Gonzaga Work or Art" that puts us at that elite A+ level.

Many here question anyone who wants to improve when we already are an A- team. I would like to get a N.C.

MDABE80
11-26-2013, 06:22 PM
I'm ok with some losses. The kids are working very hard. It's all anyone can expect or want. It's a good team I think. Just short on talent in a spot. Sam's doing the best he can. It'll be a decent season.

burgesszag
11-26-2013, 11:17 PM
5 for 19 from deep...enough said.

If he can't recruit and can't coach, how the heck does he have an 80% winning percentage?

Jud Heathcote, Marv Harshman, and Don Monson are the best coaches to ever work a referee from our part of the basketball world...In 24 seasons, Jud was 416-277 for 60% {As freshman Coach at WSU he won 95% of his games
over a 5 year period}...Marv was 400-328 for 55% at WSU and UW...Don was 216-186 for 53% at Idaho and Oregon...Dan Monson 275-220 for 55% at Gonzaga 52-17...Minnesota 118-106...Long Beach 105-97..Mark Few
378-94 80% at Gonzaga...Conference 90%..Non Conference 69%...Obviously Mark Few can both coach and recruit
and win 80% of his games...A terrific record..But Jud, Marv, Don, and Dan are equally astute as coaches and cannot be judged solely and won loss records and %....

loscontigos79
11-27-2013, 07:05 AM
but I don't think it's blasphemous to discuss any of his deficiencies on occasion like some do. In the tournament his teams are almost always beat to the loose ball and they rarely completely close out on 3 point shooters. If a coaches teams repeatedly underperform in the biggest moments it is absolutely fair to scrutinize that coach.

gonzagafan62
11-27-2013, 08:14 AM
5 for 19 from deep...enough said.

If he can't recruit and can't coach, how the heck does he have an 80% winning percentage?

This.

Reborn
11-27-2013, 08:24 AM
It was interesting to see Few's explanation for why we are thin in the posts position. He said that they had not anticipated that they would lose either Spangler or Olynyk. Imagine what the team would be like if we had those two guys with THIS team. And then to top that off Edwards has two have his tonsils out. When you think about it the Zags are doing pretty damn well for what we now have in the posts. The one question I will always have is why we couldn't recruit some post player to help us out THIS YEAR. We had that one scholarship I think that I was hoping we'd recruit someone. I have assumed that there was no one who would fit in THIS year.

I believe that the Zags can win the way they did back in '99 and 2000, by excellent offense. I think that with this team this is how we will have to win. There will be games when we are off from the outside, like we were against Dayton. And we will barely lose. When you look back at that Dayton game, you can easily see that as off as we were, as poor as we played defense and as horrible as we rebounded, we still were right in the game at the end and if Pangos had hit the runner after the steal when we were pressing, the game would have been ours. And I have heard that that is what any coach wants...just to be in the game and have a chance to win in the last minute of the game.

Hoopaholic
11-27-2013, 08:32 AM
It was interesting to see Few's explanation for why we are thin in the posts position. He said that they had not anticipated that they would lose either Spangler or Olynyk. Imagine what the team would be like if we had those two guys with THIS team. And then to top that off Edwards has two have his tonsils out. When you think about it the Zags are doing pretty damn well for what we now have in the posts. The one question I will always have is why we couldn't recruit some post player to help us out THIS YEAR. We had that one scholarship I think that I was hoping we'd recruit someone. I have assumed that there was no one who would fit in THIS year.

I believe that the Zags can win the way they did back in '99 and 2000, by excellent offense. I think that with this team this is how we will have to win. There will be games when we are off from the outside, like we were against Dayton. And we will barely lose. When you look back at that Dayton game, you can easily see that as off as we were, as poor as we played defense and as horrible as we rebounded, we still were right in the game at the end and if Pangos had hit the runner after the steal when we were pressing, the game would have been ours. And I have heard that that is what any coach wants...just to be in the game and have a chance to win in the last minute of the game.

understand but they HAVE known they were going to go into the season without KO and Spangler for over7 months and yet it appears we have made no adjustments to the style or approach of our game based upon the current roster.....or if we have the team is not implementing them effectively

I look for us migrating to a single big on the court at any one time, to protect one or the other.......going less with twin tower lineuip and more with a stretch lineup...IF we can get some wing rebounding going on

bballbeachbum
11-27-2013, 01:21 PM
I look for us migrating to a single big on the court at any one time, to protect one or the other.......going less with twin tower lineuip and more with a stretch lineup...IF we can get some wing rebounding going on

I think so too, quickness on the boards more important than ever with all the long rebounds. Could give Coleman/Dranginis/Barham big chances to step up and rebound the basketball, biggest need from the kind of lineup we're talking about imo. Who is going to win the weakside defensive board battles consistently, those 6 or 7 boards from 8-9 battles, somtheing like Hart and Gray would do for example? that player has an important emergence ahead hopefully. we'll see

kitzbuel
11-27-2013, 06:13 PM
Feasting on Hog must help satisfy their hunger.

Birddog
11-27-2013, 06:21 PM
Feasting on Hog must help satisfy their hunger.
Pulled Pork!

webspinnre
11-27-2013, 08:52 PM
understand but they HAVE known they were going to go into the season without KO and Spangler for over7 months and yet it appears we have made no adjustments to the style or approach of our game based upon the current roster.....or if we have the team is not implementing them effectively

I look for us migrating to a single big on the court at any one time, to protect one or the other.......going less with twin tower lineuip and more with a stretch lineup...IF we can get some wing rebounding going on

For what it's worth, they tried VERY hard this offseason to add another quality big.

NEC26
11-27-2013, 09:41 PM
For what it's worth, they tried VERY hard this offseason to add another quality big.

Yeah they missed out on the transfer from Tulsa who is doing quite well I believe.