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View Full Version : Any Thoughts about the game against Oakland?



Reborn
11-17-2013, 08:57 PM
I'm surprised there hasn't been a post game thread started, so I'll do it.

The game was highlighted once again by very good three point shooting, and by Kevin Pangos finding his touch from behind the arc. I also thought Gary looked very good attacking the basket tonight. Overall the Zags hit 11 three-point shots, which was the same as Oakland shot. I thought Oakland shot very well from behind the arc, and their 3 point shooting kept them in the game, but then I looked at the stats and Gonzaga shot the same. So I'd have to say that GU's three-point shooting was impressive. Four different players hit three-point shots, and three of them had two or more. Dower and PK scored 15 and 12 respectfully.

I was pretty disappointed that Oakland shot 55% from behind the arc and 50% overall. Defense is now becoming a problem to me. I just did not feel good about how GU was playing on D, and alot of that happened because Coleman is not playing enough. Coleman got 4 boards and 3 steals in just 14 minutes. Come on Few....It's about time for you to view some game film.

The good news is that two of the teams that are ahead of us in the AP poll, Michigan and North Carolina got beat tonight. An aweful lot of fans who post here have had concerns about Gonzaga's defense. I was one who has not had those concerns, but honestly after watching the game tonight I do have them. Why? Coleman is not playing enough. There is no way that his role should be to be the 3rd man coming off the bench. He is our best defender, and one of our best rebounders. That's a fact. He also made a beautiful pass to Bell for a made 3 pter for Gary. Defensively there is no comparison between Dranginis and Coleman. NONE. I know I am not Mark Few, and that he is the one making the millions, and I am not going to apply for his job, so please don't make those remarks to me. I'm a fan with some knowledge of the game, and this is a message board. And these are my thoughts. I'm worried. I'm glad we're playing WSU Thursday. I think that game will tell me alot.

23dpg
11-17-2013, 09:05 PM
I do not think it's a fact that Coleman is the Zags best defender, not even remotely. I like Coleman and expect his role to grow. But as for now, he makes mistakes on the both ends of the floor. His positioning and awareness are also a work in progress. I have no idea about his jumper because the only shot that I can remember him taking that wasn't in the lane was an eight foot baseline shot.

In short, I think there's a reason he's not starting. I also think his minutes will increase as the year goes on and he improves his overall game.

MickMick
11-17-2013, 09:05 PM
I don't care for allowing offensive players to roam unabated although this new rule emphasis may actually benefit the Zags in the long term. Hand checks and arm bars are part of the game in my opinion. Going to need to play a ton of zone to protect Dower this season. Defense, for everyone, is going to look ugly this year.

CdAZagFan
11-17-2013, 09:36 PM
I love Coleman's long arms and his ability to disrupt the dribble or pass. IMHO he is not the best defender however, and I see someone who struggles a little when having to operate in the half court offense - so don't mind him coming off the bench for now. I think he has great potential for growth on defense and for his half court game tho.

maynard g krebs
11-17-2013, 09:56 PM
I think Coleman didn't play a lot because of the zone, so they couldn't pack it in too much. Dranginis did have 5 assists in his 17 min; I didn't know it till I saw the box score.

Few seems to have chosen offense over defense to a degree. The starting lineup is the team's best offensive group. Stockton is one of the best passers in the game, and Bell and Pangos on the wings opens up the post for easier entry passes and one on one opportunities for the posts.

The offense is pretty impressive so far.

91.7ppg--25th
55.4 fg%--7th
45.7 3pt%--13th
16.3 apg--54th
1.69a/to ratio--24t
9.7 to per gm--39th
1.35 pts per possession--16th
64.4 effective fg%--5th

The defense is so-so, middle of the pack, but this team is so good offensively they should handle teams outside the top 50 most of the time, and dangerous against top teams.

I feel pretty good about the WSU game; guessing a 15-20 point win.

maynard g krebs
11-17-2013, 10:04 PM
I don't care for allowing offensive players to roam unabated although this new rule emphasis may actually benefit the Zags in the long term. Hand checks and arm bars are part of the game in my opinion.

You're a football guy, right? I started playing basketball in the 60's, and I don't remember being "hand checked" on a regular basis until the early 90's, by the teenagers and 20-somethings in the post Laimbeer/Mahorn/Rodman Pistons era. Until the late 80's, top teams regularly scored in the 90's and the 100's weren't uncommon. The game was free flowing and creative; then it became a slugfest played in mud.

To each their own, but I am loving what I'm seeing so far this year. It's getting back to the way basketball is at its best imo.

Baseline
11-17-2013, 10:06 PM
I am a bit more worried about the inside game than the guard defense. I keep seeing Karno out of position or beaten to the basket by faster, nimble bigs. That and his rebounding is weak, not what it should be for a 7'1" 290 pound guy. So far his game has been pretty much a dunk when given the ball inside. He had one turn around jumper that shows he can expand his game and not be one dimensional. I am a real Karno fan, but he has a long way to go to be a force in the game. My hats off to him for his improved free throws.

Dower looks much improved, but he will struggle at times. While much improved he will not be the go to guy.

I think Coleman does not add much with a zone defense. Oakland had a lot of zone, so I suspect Few went more to Kyle because of his outside shot and passing.

Everyone keeps talking that we are a guard oriented team and will live by the 3 pointers. I just don't feel like we are that good of a 3 point shooting team. Tonight wasn't bad, but it was on par with a team that most likely will not make the tournament. For a 15th ranked team we should blow by guys like this.

My post might have seemed negative to some, it is not meant to be as it is what I feel and my concern as what needs fixing to improve.

DixieZag
11-17-2013, 10:21 PM
Maynard, I agree that Stocks is the best passer and the offense has been unbelievable so it is hard to find any fault in the rotation, so take this with a grain of salt. Bell is our best defender (IMO, and maybe now in contention for top 2 scorers) so he has to be out there a lot. Kevin is our top shooter and a good defender. Thus, I think the question is only a balance of greater benefit between Coleman/Stocks - - Stocks is best passer and really gets the bigs more involved in scoring which is powerful, Coleman is the best at getting to the rim. I guess given Stocks experience and Coleman just getting his stride it makes sense for now.

But, say we play Syracuse and their unreal zone - it seems plainly obvious we will need Coleman's ability to drive over Stocks passing ability. So, if that is the case, I wonder why we aren't getting it ready now. We know that Stocks excelled at coming in and executing exactly what Few told him right before sending him out. He is always there to do it. I just see the three lineup as redundant and the other two are not options for sitting.

I fully admit I know nowhere near as much BB as you, CDC, Reborn and many others, so I'm not too anxious yet. But I can see Few's obstinate (at times in the past, not always) nature against changing his initial plans, such as starting the small guard lineup getting really frustrating in the future.

NO reason to panic yet but it is worth watching.

maynard g krebs
11-17-2013, 10:41 PM
Maynard, I agree that Stocks is the best passer and the offense has been unbelievable so it is hard to find any fault in the rotation, so take this with a grain of salt. Bell is our best defender (IMO, and maybe now in contention for top 2 scorers) so he has to be out there a lot. Kevin is our top shooter and a good defender. Thus, I think the question is only a balance of greater benefit between Coleman/Stocks - - Stocks is best passer and really gets the bigs more involved in scoring which is powerful, Coleman is the best at getting to the rim. I guess given Stocks experience and Coleman just getting his stride it makes sense for now.

But, say we play Syracuse and their unreal zone - it seems plainly obvious we will need Coleman's ability to drive over Stocks passing ability. So, if that is the case, I wonder why we aren't getting it ready now. We know that Stocks excelled at coming in and executing exactly what Few told him right before sending him out. He is always there to do it. I just see the three lineup as redundant and the other two are not options for sitting.

I fully admit I know nowhere near as much BB as you, CDC, Reborn and many others, so I'm not too anxious yet. But I can see Few's obstinate (at times in the past, not always) nature against changing his initial plans, such as starting the small guard lineup getting really frustrating in the future.

NO reason to panic yet but it is worth watching.

Thanks, but I'm just an old jv scrub who plays in pickup games. Not in the category of CDC, Reborn, Hoopaholic, and several others who know many times more.

Before the season, based on stats and what I'd heard I assumed Coleman would start, like everyone else did. I approach it like this: what I know about basketball is basic and rudimentary. So if the coaches don't do what I expect, I try to look at why, and what am I missing, based on the assumption that they know more than I do. I.e., I try to keep an open mind, because that's the best way to learn things.

Opinions differ, and that's fine with me. Makes it interesting. I like things the way they are going; it's fun so far. This team scored 82 when the opponent was trying to run clock. I think that's impressive. And I think there will be plenty of times Coleman will play more, but zones really limit his effectiveness imo.

2wiceright
11-17-2013, 10:58 PM
I feel Karno is coming along, making strides in each game for the better as we play tougher games. He had little time to get any real meaningful minutes in Div. 1 Bball to this point (with the exception of cleanup duties last year). He's turned around his free throw shooting from being afraid to take them last year with a 20 something shooting %(from the charity stripe) becoming much more consistent - tonight he was 2-2. He's rebounding better (led the team with 6 in 19 minutes) and learning to position himself in the post better, and scored in double figures again. Not great, but steadily improving.

Face it, this was an ugly team to play- one of those grinder teams that stalls on offense and wait until the very last second to take their shot (taking us out of any rhythm). Taking into consideration Travis Bader is one of the best 3 point shooters in the country and tonight he only outscored Pangos by one point (no slight to Kevin who played very well), this was a good win this early in the season. We are a guard oriented team who shot collectively 55% beyond the arc. If they had their other starting guard and 6th man who were on a well deserved suspension (from what it sounds like) this game could have turned out differently (or at least been one that came down to the last shot).

All or most of the non- starters from last year are making big strides each game and I'm thankful they played well tonight as a team! Go Zags!!!

2wiceright
11-17-2013, 11:18 PM
Maynard, I agree that Stocks is the best passer and the offense has been unbelievable so it is hard to find any fault in the rotation, so take this with a grain of salt. Bell is our best defender (IMO, and maybe now in contention for top 2 scorers) so he has to be out there a lot. Kevin is our top shooter and a good defender. Thus, I think the question is only a balance of greater benefit between Coleman/Stocks - - Stocks is best passer and really gets the bigs more involved in scoring which is powerful, Coleman is the best at getting to the rim. I guess given Stocks experience and Coleman just getting his stride it makes sense for now.

But, say we play Syracuse and their unreal zone - it seems plainly obvious we will need Coleman's ability to drive over Stocks passing ability. So, if that is the case, I wonder why we aren't getting it ready now. We know that Stocks excelled at coming in and executing exactly what Few told him right before sending him out. He is always there to do it. I just see the three lineup as redundant and the other two are not options for sitting.

I fully admit I know nowhere near as much BB as you, CDC, Reborn and many others, so I'm not too anxious yet. But I can see Few's obstinate (at times in the past, not always) nature against changing his initial plans, such as starting the small guard lineup getting really frustrating in the future.

NO reason to panic yet but it is worth watching.

+1 Dixie.... I agree with Maynards logic concerning the coaches POV,but also can't deny the advantage to preparing Coleman now for what's coming in a week or two, then especially post season play(Of Course we'll have Nunez by then as well). I too get frustrated wondering what could be if Kevin was allowed to play an entire game at the point (he's improved his own passing and driving so much this year) with Coleman as a more developed weapon at the "3". How many more rebounds (inside not long rebounds only guards get) and deflections, and especially one more tough defender to shoot over (no dis to Stocks but Colemans arms go on forever!). There's always a tradeoff but unless one of us fans gets a back stage pass to interview Tommy or Few we may never know the real reasons. Or as Maynard reasons, quite correctly, they see and know things we never will, unless we got an invite to hang around practices and meetings for a year or so (that could be eye opening).

Hoopaholic
11-18-2013, 05:04 AM
We have some work to do on both ends of the court. We struggled against the 1-3-1 last night....be it poor angles ( getting trapped) spacing ( barham only one who found sweet spot vs this zone ) and role confusion ( pango and stocks ran into each other trying to balance the court). Need to work on this or we could lose by 20 vs Syracuse

My guess on Coleman not seeing more time was the middle collapse style of oak lands zone which did not give traditional driving lanes for someone like Coleman, combined with his turnover ( pass to few which actually should have been stocks sliding over to the displaced defender spot for open shot...see above) and his unwillingness early to shoot open jumpers was reasons to see more pine time

Defensively we are exposing our bigs way to much with our defense out front....it is going to cost us a loss at some point if we don't clean up our guard wing defense on and more importantly off the ball as the rotation dribble penetration has created stress on the bigs......need Edwards to get some floor time sooooooon

Finally weak side rebounding was poor...barham and draino has to find a body and seal weak side when they are playing the 3-4 slots

But we got a win against a team that brought unorthodox end style to the court

BTB
11-18-2013, 05:08 AM
I'll throw in my take of the whole Coleman playing time scenario.

Everyone is saying that our guards are too small and that allows players to just shoot over us. While it's true that defenders can more easily shoot over smaller defenders, it is still better to have small defenders that are in correct position than long defenders who are out of position. Coleman is a fantastic on ball defender when it comes to getting steals and disrupting his man, but he is pretty frequently out of position when it comes to team defense. I haven't seen him make a good defensive rotation play yet; something that David pretty routinely makes. He also is not that good in half court offense yet. He isn't bad, but his inability to shoot allows the defense to collapse on our bigs, and that stagnates our offense quite a bit. He is by far our best fastbreak player and is easily most valuable when we are in transition. I think most games we will be looking to push the ball, but in a game like yesterday when we don't get many fastbreak opportunities he loses a lot of his value.

john montana
11-18-2013, 05:15 AM
Pretty ugly. The good news...we can shoot the lights out. The bad, so far we have really not shown any interior scoring. For all of our shooting prowess, we should be able to give dower and karno room to work on the block but their touches down there have been limited. Our shooting will win is games, but I wish we could score inside first...just haven't seen that yet. Post entry and high low passing has been awful.

Defensively we are simply not good. No height or length without Coleman in their, and he is an athlete but doesn't seem to have grasped the concept of team d just yet. Despite karno's size, we really don't have a rim protector. ( mostly because he is so slow that he can't get there). Long way to go...I hope we can get better but I don't expect this group to shut people down...hopefully they can slow em down enough for our offense to win games.

MTZag03
11-18-2013, 05:45 AM
[QUOTE=Hoopaholic;949763]
Defensively we are exposing our bigs way to much with our defense out front....it is going to cost us a loss at some point if we don't clean up our guard wing defense on and more importantly off the ball as the rotation dribble penetration has created stress on the bigs......need Edwards to get some floor time sooooooon

Finally weak side rebounding was poor...barham and draino has to find a body and seal weak side when they are playing the 3-4 slots

Yes! Karno keeps getting blamed for being too slow, but he is fouling driving guards. I think this falls more on our perimeter than him.

willandi
11-18-2013, 06:27 AM
My disappointment was that, once we began to get them in serious foul trouble, we stopped driving the lane...whether to dish or finish. They couldn't stop us without fouling, but the Zags continued to play the perimeter and take quality outside shots.
I have to believe that it was a coaching decision (I love Few, please don't take this as an attack), and I don't know why, unless it was in the name of sportsmanship. They came in underhanded and we DIDN"T do all we could to take away their players.
They are a difficult team to play, with 3 good outside shooters, one is great, and one solid inside guy. It was a good game for the Zags. We will run into this make-up of teams again. Just take advantage of the new enforcement of the rules and I'll be happy.

DixieZag
11-18-2013, 07:21 AM
I am concerned about Karno's propensity for picking up cheap fouls. I recall two of his as nothing but little reaches that had zero upside anyway. I actually think he has done a pretty good job offensively - perhaps I am only thinking relative to where he was and not could be.

MT Zag - from posts earlier this week, it sounds like we won't have Edwards any time soon - health, not injury issues, no more need be said. So, need to work with what we currently have.

Besides - it is a legitimate defensive concept to score 10 more points than an opponent, has worked for teams before, we seem to score well. Despite their 0-4 record, we beat the best team that we have faced last night while they were hot shooting and did it comfortably, not shabby.

Ezag
11-18-2013, 08:42 AM
Bell was great. Played hard D and still managed offense. That is something great. Pangos was on and lit up the scoreboard. Stocks played great, pestered everyone on Oakland's team, great defense I thought. Barham played great- 9pts in 9 minutes, Coleman was ok but had limited minutes. Karno and Dower put up some points but only had I believe 11 rebounds between them and defense was lacking for sure. I am sure that will get better as time goes on.

sittingon50
11-18-2013, 09:17 AM
Misc. r.e. Oakland:

1. Bader, a RS Sr., graduated in 3 yrs. Apparently will finish his Master's (in Communication) this year.
2. Oakland has avg. over 80 pts. a game the last 5 yrs. Only BYU & Mizzou have scored more in that time frame.
3. Oakland has the 2nd highest Feb. winning % over the last 5 yrs. (.886). GU is 3rd (.881).
4. Coach Kampe in his 30th yr. @ Oakland. Only Boeheim (38) & Coach K. (34) have a current longer streak.

Pretty decent team. Wish them well going forward.

flytiezag
11-18-2013, 09:43 AM
We have two very good guards Kevin and Gary that can do things very well.We have 4 Guards or forwards David,Kyle,Drew,Gerard,that do some things well Few will mix and match as the game go on is he perfect,nobody is,he is the best we have period. Short guards tall guards we have what we have.Maybe sometime we will be have tall guards that can defend then we will complain they can not shoot.We won a very ugly game our coaches and players responded and adjusted I am proud of all of them.

Angelo Roncalli
11-18-2013, 09:47 AM
Misc. r.e. Oakland:

1. Bader, a RS Sr., graduated in 3 yrs. Apparently will finish his Master's (in Communication) this year.
2. Oakland has avg. over 80 pts. a game the last 5 yrs. Only BYU & Mizzou have scored more in that time frame.
3. Oakland has the 2nd highest Feb. winning % over the last 5 yrs. (.886). GU is 3rd (.881).
4. Coach Kampe in his 30th yr. @ Oakland. Only Boeheim (38) & Coach K. (34) have a current longer streak.

Pretty decent team. Wish them well going forward.

That was a superbly coached team. They will be formidable with a full roster.

CDC84
11-18-2013, 10:02 AM
Oakland is a team that normally likes to run, but because of the scholarship situation last night, Coach Kampe had to change things on short notice. His team couldn't have been better prepared.

BobZag
11-18-2013, 10:39 AM
Oakland will do well in Horizon. As for Zags, we took a step forward on defense v CSU, but regressed a bit last night. Need to toughen and tighten up. Or DIE!!

Colbyspapa
11-18-2013, 10:53 AM
Hi guys, haven't posted in a while but watching last night. This team has a long way to improve and we are not ready for the #15 ranking. I like this team but we are thin thin thin up front and any foul trouble against good teams we are in trouble. Our guard play is outstanding on offense but David and Kevin will be bodied up by Matt Bouldin like guards or just left in the dust by long athletic or very quick guards. I don't believe The Big Shem or dower are ready to defend high level centers or power forwards one on one and a team with dribble drive penetration will get a lot of open threes against us as our guards will have to double every time. Offensively we look great when everyone is on the floor and Kevin, Gary and David look like they have all improved a ton in the offseason. I will love watching this team but we will live by the three and be outrebounded by St. Mary's and BYU. I don't expect a Maui win but I will always be rooting for it! This will be a fun season. We will win some close games because great guard play always wins a few games and we have great guard play.

sittingon50
11-18-2013, 11:14 AM
Devonte Lacy will put them to the test Thursday. He was built like a linebacker when I saw him up close & personal 2 yrs. ago. Great kid too.

DixieZag
11-18-2013, 11:40 AM
CDC - the same thought went through my mind last night. "He is managing this like a chess game and has total respect of his players who can implement it."

He is the opposite of "roll it and let' em run" type - a master.

Zagger
11-18-2013, 01:27 PM
CDC - the same thought went through my mind last night. "He is managing this like a chess game and has total respect of his players who can implement it."
He is the opposite of "roll it and let' em run" type - a master.
I too subscribe to the "chess" metaphor. I'm not that much of a BB fan - just a Zags fan. Whenever I watch a Zags game I try to figure out why Few has this person in and that person out. For the current Zags to do well this season - as in very well - they'll have to play well and play smart. Playing well only won't cut it (IMHO) due to the overall skill level of many current team members. What I saw last night had some instances of pretty smart BB - especially those times when the ball is being passed around at a quick enough pace to keep the opposing team's defense busy. Sooner or later a hole opens up, the ball goes to Dower or Shem, and in it goes into the basket. Well more than once last night it was smart team play that made a score. Supplement that with 3s and with the plays Coleman can make all on his own ...... the Zags won. Right now I feel that each player is getting the right amount of time on the court. I fully like who's starting and who's on the bench. For the Zags to do well (IMHO) they need to rely heavily on team play. I feel for team play to be at its best you have to have players on the court who know one another well - have experience playing with one another - know where each other is and/or is going to be and/or won't be. Each player will have to be out there doing what they do best and the deck has to be shuffled often enough to keep the other team guessing. I like what I'm seeing. It is a little rough around the edges but I like how it is working. If the Zags can reach at point where they are bringing out the best in one another and can "click" as a team - they're going to be hard to beat by top 25 teams. So far, so good. It may be a stretch to think this Zags team will win out at Maui but I feel that they, with Few's coaching, can do it. I can't wait to see how Maui turns out. Heck, I can't wait to see how Thursday turns out against Wazzu. I'm a graduate of both schools! You can bet that WSU will be putting all they have into Thursday's game. How well the Zags do will go a long way in telling how well they'll do in Maui.

DixieZag
11-18-2013, 01:41 PM
That's a good post Zagger but I was actually referring to Oakland's coach.

But I have always thought the same of Few

rennis
11-18-2013, 01:51 PM
Devonte Lacy will put them to the test Thursday. He was built like a linebacker when I saw him up close & personal 2 yrs. ago. Great kid too.

yup. I've had him marked for a while. Litmus in action, come Thursday night!