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DixieZag
11-11-2013, 09:50 PM
Colo State was an impressive game - even though CSU is going to struggle this year.

Three things to work on going forward (not complaints, just working to get better).

- Giving up the lane for layups. They are getting burned a lot.

- Karno tends to force his passes a little. I think it is him trying to be unselfish more than anything but he needs to take care of the ball a little better.

- Stocks can drive himself into trouble a little too much. Seems like teams know he is dying to dish so they play off cut his passing lanes down.

Great team win. I love looking at the scoreboard and seeing balanced scoring throughout. This team is an offensive juggernaut. When they are hitting they are going to be extremely tough to beat.

Ekrub
11-11-2013, 11:08 PM
Karnowski can play soft at times, and get in the way of his own teammates during rebounds. His FT percentage seems to be improved, which is awesome. Think he will blossom over next year. He has a lot of tools, just needs to put them together. Not NBA bound this season though.

Kind of a blow out so tough to judge minutes, but Stockton and Coleman's minutes need to be reversed.

Dower looks amazing.

Pangos and Bell both look like they have improved. Hopefully Kevin can stay consistent shooting the ball this year, still seems streaky.

Meikle looked scrappy, which I love. I know we tend to compare players based on skin color/looks but kind of pendegraph like.

Only two games in, but I think we are a tourney team again this year. Just hope pangos and Bell get hot in March (and April)

2wiceright
11-12-2013, 01:07 AM
Karnowski can play soft at times, and get in the way of his own teammates during rebounds. His FT percentage seems to be improved, which is awesome. Think he will blossom over next year. He has a lot of tools, just needs to put them together. Not NBA bound this season though.

Kind of a blow out so tough to judge minutes, but Stockton and Coleman's minutes need to be reversed.

Dower looks amazing.

Pangos and Bell both look like they have improved. Hopefully Kevin can stay consistent shooting the ball this year, still seems streaky.

Meikle looked scrappy, which I love. I know we tend to compare players based on skin color/looks but kind of pendegraph like.

Only two games in, but I think we are a tourney team again this year. Just hope pangos and Bell get hot in March (and April)

+1 on all of the above!:agreed:

Oregonzagnut
11-12-2013, 02:10 AM
Karnowski can play soft at times, and get in the way of his own teammates during rebounds. His FT percentage seems to be improved, which is awesome. Think he will blossom over next year. He has a lot of tools, just needs to put them together. Not NBA bound this season though.

It will not hurt my feelings if we get to see Karno in 2014-15. With Wiltjer, Nunez, Coleman, Bell and Pangos, we will get a final four pretty soon.

ZagaZags
11-12-2013, 02:14 AM
It will not hurt my feelings if we get to see Karno in 2014-15. With Wiltjer, Nunez, Coleman, Bell and Pangos, we will get a final four pretty soon.

From the looks of it, Karnowski could use another year at GU. I think Edwards has softer hands.

DixieZag
11-12-2013, 07:27 AM
Agree generally on Karno, but

One of the biggest issues last year was that when he received the ball down low he would try to use that soft little shot of his, often getting it blocked. He is just going strong and throwing down more often this year. That tells me that he just needs court time and he can incorporate what the coaches are saying.

He really had very little meaningful court time last year, I think he is going to prove to be a very quick learner. I dearly want him for another year but the way the NBA drafts potential. . .

I think Coleman gives us more options than Stocks - though we certainly lose some passing into the block. Perhaps Few wants to establish the big guys early - which is fine. But, yes, the way Coleman played last night, he needs more minutes.

WallaWallaZag
11-12-2013, 08:49 AM
Agree generally on Karno, but

One of the biggest issues last year was that when he received the ball down low he would try to use that soft little shot of his, often getting it blocked. He is just going strong and throwing down more often this year. That tells me that he just needs court time and he can incorporate what the coaches are saying.

He really had very little meaningful court time last year, I think he is going to prove to be a very quick learner. I dearly want him for another year but the way the NBA drafts potential. . .

at least compared to the game against bryant i thought karno showed some improvement, particularly staying out of foul trouble and improved rebounding...i think he has the most room to grow over the course of the season...

DixieZag
11-12-2013, 10:39 AM
at least compared to the game against bryant i thought karno showed some improvement, particularly staying out of foul trouble and improved rebounding...i think he has the most room to grow over the course of the season...

Saying that he "has the most room to grow" is a great way to put it.

In terms of on court time, he is not even up to where Gary and Kevin were 1/3 of the way through their frosh seasons. Karno has shown us smarts and work ethic. No reason to think that won't all come together as huge progress throughout the year.

thegloriousgoateeofKP
11-12-2013, 10:51 AM
at least compared to the game against bryant i thought karno showed some improvement, particularly staying out of foul trouble and improved rebounding...i think he has the most room to grow over the course of the season...


Maybe it's just me, and maybe I don't know what I'm talking about (certainly no basketball scout). But when I watch Karno, he looks soooooo uncoordinated. He just looks totally unathletic and lost out there. In my mind, not only will he never play in the NBA, but I don't see how he'll even compete against major D1 centers in March.

For example, I vividly remember one play from last night. There was a shot from the near corner that was long, and it came right to Dranginis. He went up powerfully, grabbed the ball with his right hand, forcefully brought it to his left, and brought it to his chest as he came down. Beautiful play. Not only have I never seen a board like that from Karno, but I'm not sure he's capable of such a play. If he tried, I think the ball would bounce off his hand and into the arms of an opponent.

I desperately hope my analysis is wrong. I felt this way last year, and I was hoping he'd look better this year. But to me, it doesn't look like he's ever dribbled a basketball before. Anyone else see what I see?

Zagdawg
11-12-2013, 10:55 AM
Nope

thegloriousgoateeofKP
11-12-2013, 11:08 AM
Care to elaborate?

gamagin
11-12-2013, 11:30 AM
I think Karno, while a long ways from understanding the game at U.S. speed, is actually more coordinated than KO or RS in their early stages.

The question, as it was also repeatedly posed to and about both our now-NBA bigs in their developmental years at GU, is how far and how fast can PK develop that all-important game between his ears ? And take and make the advantages he has naturally to the level where they belong and are expected.

imo, Beginning with the "Sacre curse" of bringing the ball down to where the other guys can grab it away while the giant in him gets befuddled and then angry. All in slow motion, while the game plays on. Over and over.

Zagdawg
11-12-2013, 11:34 AM
What I saw yesterday was a very aggressive Colorado State defense that collapsed hard on our bigs whenever we dropped it inside (their weak side defender was dropping his guy immediatly to attack our big inside as soon or even before they received the ball)-- this aggressiveness led to lots of bodying of the bigs with not many fouls called -- leading to the defense continuing to use this aggressive collapse (which is a trademark of Colorado State).

I don't know that Karnowski is uncoordinated as much he was working through a lot of contact and letting the opposing team get into his head.

There was quite a bit of talking going on and extra bumps and pushes occuring away from the ball-- probably a bit more than he was used to in Euro ball.

I'm going to give him a bit of time before I pull his NBA card and let him get more comfortable on the floor playing much more minutes than he is used to for the Zags.

Just my .02

zag944
11-12-2013, 11:39 AM
I don't think leftwingwordking is wrong about how uncoordinated he can look at times, but as gamagin says, we've had some bigs really figure things out in their GU careers. Rare is the player as smooth as a JP Batista or Elias Harris coming in, but I think GU does a much better job then most having them ready when they go out.

Karno just needs minutes. It's pretty understandable that he didn't get too many last year. Id expect he will figure out quite a bit this year.

thegloriousgoateeofKP
11-12-2013, 11:41 AM
Sure, that makes sense. And I don't mean to jump to conclusions...he definitely has plenty of time to learn and grow as a player. To your point, gamagin, I never really paid close attention to Kelly or Rob's games early in their careers so I'll take your word for it that they were both less coordinated. But something about Karnowski just feels off to me. He just doesn't look like he has any hand-eye coordination. But Zagdawg, if he's so rattled by such an inferior Colorado St. team, what hope is there against the Michigan States and Dukes of the world, much less the BYUs? Can you see him making a big enough jump IN SEASON between now and March to take us deep into the tourney?

duper
11-12-2013, 11:43 AM
Maybe it's just me, and maybe I don't know what I'm talking about (certainly no basketball scout). But when I watch Karno, he looks soooooo uncoordinated. He just looks totally unathletic and lost out there. In my mind, not only will he never play in the NBA, but I don't see how he'll even compete against major D1 centers in March.

For example, I vividly remember one play from last night. There was a shot from the near corner that was long, and it came right to Dranginis. He went up powerfully, grabbed the ball with his right hand, forcefully brought it to his left, and brought it to his chest as he came down. Beautiful play. Not only have I never seen a board like that from Karno, but I'm not sure he's capable of such a play. If he tried, I think the ball would bounce off his hand and into the arms of an opponent.

I desperately hope my analysis is wrong. I felt this way last year, and I was hoping he'd look better this year. But to me, it doesn't look like he's ever dribbled a basketball before. Anyone else see what I see?

I see very little in Karno's game that transfers into the NBA.Many think that is a slam on the player and it really isn't, he can be a great college player and greatly help GU in the next few years. Lets face it we have had many great players that are part of GU legend that never even got a taste of the NBA.

Angelo Roncalli
11-12-2013, 11:48 AM
I see very little in Karno's game that transfers into the NBA.Many think that is a slam on the player and it really isn't, he can be a great college player and greatly help GU in the next few years. Lets face it we have had many great players that are part of GU legend that never even got a taste of the NBA.

Nearly the same observations were posted on this board a few years ago about Kelly Olynyk.

Zagdawg
11-12-2013, 11:56 AM
I don't know that Big K needs to take us deep into the dance-- he needs to play his best and learn through the year. We have a ton of weapons on the team and all of the weight will not be on his shoulders to make Gonzaga a success-- he is a big body who will have challenges guarding athletic and quick 4/5 men-- this is a given.

I know we have been discounting Colorado State as not too great of an opponent -- but they have been to the dance two out of the last 3 years and are picked to finish 6th in the mountain west. They played 6 upperclassmen and 2 frosh and a soph-- but they are all learning their new roles----- by the end of the season they can be a solid team and this very well could be a good win.

Goshzagit
11-12-2013, 11:58 AM
Meanwhile, SMC's Brad Waldow looks like the 2nd coming of JP Batista this yr and I'm not joking...much MUCH improved. Smoother, stronger, even more efficient. Karno gonna have his hands full, maybe too full.

Speaking of fellow bigs, anyone notice BYU's Frosh stud Erik Mika? 6'10, athletic, strong, is a beast around the rim, and very intelligent/mature bball player. Kinda Casey Calvery-ish. I can see why he was considered a Top-25 prospect by numerous recruiting services. Now that Collingsworth has returned from a Missionary and Carlino is finally "getting it", BYU looks more than formidable and twice the team they were last season. I believe Top-15 good. Just watch and see. Carlino, Collingsworth, Haws, Mika, Austin, w/Worthington and Winder off the bench. High scoring, skilled bunch. However, defense still a concern with that group.

Whoa, getting side tracked. Point is, Karnowski better step up his game, become Shem-nasty, use his body/strength appropriately, and focus on getting better every min on the floor. We need more POW from him. He has the ability and god-given size, just force your way to the rim. Still too nancy-like down low this season, not to mention his hook shot is nice, but go up stronger. I think we forget he's literally 7'1", 290lbs, because he doesn't play like it, yet. We need him in a BIG way or we aren't going very far, in pre-season, conference, or post-season. We don't have time to bring him along, because he's it. The transformation starts now.

Twas nearly impossible to *plan* for KO's early departure and Spanglers' sudden transfer. Imagine this team with either or -- hello Top-5 again.

I'm fine with what we got and blessed to what we have, just make it happen and it starts with Karno realizing he's a big boy and NO LONGER A ROLE PLAYER.

Step up, big fella. Its your turn and time.

Simply floored by his Polish Coach talking NBA or Euro-pro after this season. Not even close to ready and may stunt his development...

Bogozags
11-12-2013, 12:19 PM
I really liked the changes from game 1 to game 2...KP played pretty well and had TEN rebounds...he is really trying to adjust to D1 Bball, which is tremendously different from Euroball. Also, I can remember watching Sacre play as a freshman and could not understand how people were so high on him BUT after five years he proved good enough to warrant being drafted. KO just looked a bit gangly his first two years...think it had to do with his growth spurt and the fact his mind set was of a guard and not a front court player. KP will improve this season and will be pretty awesome next year.

Meikle was pretty impressive on the glass...FOUR offensive rebounds to me says a lot. More playing time will only make him more confident and stronger defensively...his foot work looked good too BUT was not given any serious looks from the guards. Coach Few/staff are pretty amazing on how often they pick good players.

Coleman is rather quick and so far understands that he doesn't have to "drive" everytime he gets the ball. I sure would love to see him take a jump shot every once in a while. He is pretty darn quick and might be quicker than JP...just saying.

KD seems to have been given the green light and I like the fact he is taking open shots and even creating his shots as well.

I was thinking after the first half if GBJ would be looking for his shot in the second half, as he has many times in the past, disappeared offensively. I like the fact he is actively looking for his shot. I personally believe he is a much better shooter than KP, who shot 42% behind the arc.

SD is a totally different player. His metamorphosis has made him a rebounder and defensive player and along with his offensive skills (I saw a strong right handed shot he made last night) is a complete players. I only see him getting better as the season progresses and maybe be another GU player in the NBA!

We look to be in pretty good shape and when Edwards returns and Nunze gets to play, we will be alright...the potential is there for GU to do big things this season.

Bogozags
11-12-2013, 12:20 PM
I really liked the changes from game 1 to game 2...KP played pretty well and had TEN rebounds...he is really trying to adjust to D1 Bball, which is tremendously different from Euroball. Also, I can remember watching Sacre play as a freshman and could not understand how people were so high on him BUT after five years he proved good enough to warrant being drafted. KO just looked a bit gangly his first two years...think it had to do with his growth spurt and the fact his mind set was of a guard and not a front court player. KP will improve this season and will be pretty awesome next year.

Meikle was pretty impressive on the glass...FOUR offensive rebounds to me says a lot. More playing time will only make him more confident and stronger defensively...his foot work looked good too BUT was not given any serious looks from the guards. Coach Few/staff are pretty amazing on how often they pick good players.

Coleman is rather quick and so far understands that he doesn't have to "drive" everytime he gets the ball. I sure would love to see him take a jump shot every once in a while. He is pretty darn quick and might be quicker than JP...just saying.

KD seems to have been given the green light and I like the fact he is taking open shots and even creating his shots as well.

I was thinking after the first half if GBJ would be looking for his shot in the second half, as he has many times in the past, disappeared offensively. I like the fact he is actively looking for his shot. I personally believe he is a much better shooter than KP, who shot 42% behind the arc.

SD is a totally different player. His metamorphosis has made him a rebounder and defensive player and along with his offensive skills (I saw a strong right handed shot he made last night) is a complete players. I only see him getting better as the season progresses and maybe be another GU player in the NBA!

We look to be in pretty good shape and when Edwards returns and Nunze gets to play, we will be alright...the potential is there for GU to do big things this season.

jim77
11-12-2013, 12:26 PM
I think Karno is better than Kelly at the same point in their careers. The potential of this guy is scary....hes a BIG dude. Hes still getting used to US BBall and I like that he gets pi$$ed sometimes.....good to see some nastiness. Hes getting better and he will continue to get better. To me he looked much better than he did against Bryant. As far as getting into his head...only he can let someone do that cause he can do what he wants when he wants and there ain't much many folks could do about it.......Remember what Yamamoto said:" I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant." the other teams better hope they don't wake him up...

maynard g krebs
11-12-2013, 01:03 PM
Karnowski is slow, but I can't see how anyone could say he's uncoordinated. His skill level is pretty high. He's better now than Todd MacCulloch of UW was at the same age, for example, and MacCulloch had a nice NBA career before the nerve disease derailed him.

He just has to develop the anticipation to counter the quicker players he is up against. If he'd grown up playing in the states, he'd probably be further along in that regard imo.

Outside of the Kentucky type recruits, big guys just take longer, as we saw with KO. To me, the best example of a guy who looked uncoordinated was Turiaf as a fr. But people mostly remember the jr/sr Turiaf, when he looked skilled and polished.

DixieZag
11-12-2013, 01:23 PM
Maynard is correct.

I recall hearing during Ronny's frosh year that he was "the best NBA prospect that the Zags have had" - this being after Dickau, Calvary, Frahm, etc and thinking "huh?" and yet look what happened. The truth is that there is simply no teaching size and a guy that big can defend a lot of space - force a lot of shots off line.

Maynard is right in that with the exception of the 5 star kid "one/done" types, bigs are going to be a little slow to get the game in their head. He needs to take it up strong and just throw it home more but we are already seeing improvement there.

As I said in the first post, he needs to take better care of the ball - he takes big risks in passes. Kinda good in that he is trying to be a team guy but it isn't his job to feed the post, just take the pass, wait for the next man to make his way up top and then set the screen. That is all that is needed.

David is the expert at feeding the post, Bell and Pangos are also excellent. I do think that David needs to stop dribbling himself into trouble and he too can take unnecessary risks. As was said, last night the D was collapsing in the paint and our guys were dead eye from the three - I know Coach wants to establish the low paint game but there is still no point in throwing the ball away in high risk passes when they couldn't guard our three balls and they were going in.

Meikle could be the next Zag "who is THAT guy" that comes through with development and hidden talent no one else picked up upon. Coleman should see more time, have to reward the hustle and relentless nose for the rim.

americasteam
11-12-2013, 02:04 PM
Just a quick comment, Meehan mentioned in one of his 2 articles after last night's game, that Karnowski is playing on a tender ankle. That may be why he is a little slow down around the paint.

jazzdelmar
11-12-2013, 02:12 PM
IF Edwards is better now than Meikle, who really impressed me with his hustle and fluidity, as has been reported, then I'm looking forward to seeing him. He may press Karno for minutes at 7-1, a happy problem.

Ezag
11-12-2013, 02:25 PM
Karno I think will make strides as the season goes on. He had some butterfingers last night. Seemed like he has a hard time holding onto the ball on rebounds and got it snatched away a few times. I think part of it is that he is so big and that much bulk even if slimmed down from last year, will make it tough against quick opponents. Nevertheless, he played hard and I like that

jim77
11-12-2013, 04:05 PM
Karno I think will make strides as the season goes on. He had some butterfingers last night. Seemed like he has a hard time holding onto the ball on rebounds and got it snatched away a few times. I think part of it is that he is so big and that much bulk even if slimmed down from last year, will make it tough against quick opponents. Nevertheless, he played hard and I like that

Yup.

DixieZag
11-12-2013, 05:33 PM
Karno I think will make strides as the season goes on. He had some butterfingers last night. Seemed like he has a hard time holding onto the ball on rebounds and got it snatched away a few times. I think part of it is that he is so big and that much bulk even if slimmed down from last year, will make it tough against quick opponents. Nevertheless, he played hard and I like that

I think this is true. Good observation. He is actually known for having very good hands and has shown a good ability to catch in traffic.

A corollary to my complaint about him passing into trouble too often is that he IS a great passing big man. He is a basketball player who is huge, not the other way around.

bballbeachbum
11-12-2013, 06:39 PM
the MacCulloch comparison is a good one and it's defensively where he has the most hill to climb seems to me. maybe the ankle thing americasteam mentioned played a part, and hopefully getting more comfy at this level all the time speeds up the processes in his game to help compensate, but he is slow like Maynard said, but skilled and huge. fun player to watch develop, I'm with gamagin on this one

cjm720
11-12-2013, 06:48 PM
I'm thrilled to have Karno...two games in...love his passing ability....still thinking too much. Maybe the most important player as the season goes on IMO.