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mendiant
10-25-2013, 06:06 PM
Thinking I have a new favorite (one of many) after seeing that pretty little break away lay up during the game tonight....no dunking, no hotdog...coulda, didn't, classy fingertip roll into the net....too good!

Don't get me wrong, I fully expect Cole-man to dunk and show when appropriate.

Yeah!

and he has GREAT taste in eye wear, handsome man sporting Michael Kors specs!

He will be fun to watch...but CRAP! we only have him for 2 years <serious pout>

Oregonzagnut
10-25-2013, 07:06 PM
The Coleman Stove is hot.

DixieZag
10-25-2013, 07:39 PM
That was a very nice burst of speed. Soon as he gets back to being used to doing it in the right situations and get the rust out, he'll be doing that plenty.

Hard to appreciate that enough when my eyeballs were mostly sticking out at Shem's hard work below and calm FT shooting. If he can hit 70% FT - that is such a weapon.

Goshzagit
10-25-2013, 07:41 PM
6th man of the year?

A great asset/spark to have off the bench.

Personally, I wish he was starting at SF/wing for us(a much more dangerous, dynamic team in long-run) yet I'll take 20+ mins per night with him.

An innate feel for rebounding, which he proven in the past -- 5 rebs per game in Big East -- and adds something we simply don't have on the team i.e. an athletically gifted slasher who can get to the rim in two strides. Faster than Meech perhaps? Definitely covers more ground in less time.

A 6'9" wingspan, good motor, swift as all get out, and willing to sacrifice himself to make the play -- offensive or defensive. All good signs.

Only hope is he's continually given the opportunity, especially vs the bigger and faster teams.

Will never fully support the trio of 6-foot guards as our starting lineup(not NCAA Tourney worthy), but in Few we Trust.

Coleman plays BIG, folks. He's listed at 6'4", yet,

His 6'9" wingspan is palpable all over the court.

Hoopaholic
10-25-2013, 07:43 PM
Drooling in Los Angeles and didn't even get to see or hear the game

DixieZag
10-25-2013, 07:45 PM
6th man of the year?

A great asset/spark to have off the bench.

Personally, I wish he was starting at SF/wing for us(a much more dangerous, dynamic team in long-run) yet I'll take 20+ mins per night with him.

An innate feel for rebounding, which he proven in the past -- 5 rebs per game in Big East -- and adds something we simply don't have on the team i.e. an athletically gifted slasher who can get to the rim in two strides. Faster than Meech perhaps? Definitely covers more ground in less time.

A 6'9" wingspan, good motor, swift as all get out, and willing to sacrifice himself to make the play -- offensive or defensive. All good signs.

Only hope is he's continually given the opportunity, especially vs the bigger and faster teams.

Will never fully support the trio of 6-foot guards as our starting lineup, but in Few we Trust.

Coleman plays BIG, folks.

His 6'9" wingspan is palpable on the court.

Is he going to be a 6th man? I was shocked he wasn't starting at the 3 and chalked it up to Few being Few (not really complaining) and not starting a guy in his first game no matter how good he is. I would think we would not start games with the small 3, rather use it as a change of pace to get Bell and Pangos some chances to stroke it from the outside or drive. Preventing one of those two from going at will is hard, both is real hard - - - and Stocks is pretty good at getting them the ball.

Ekrub
10-25-2013, 07:51 PM
going to be hard to keep him off the court with that rebounding ability. With Karno and Dower not very strong in that department we are going to need the help. I think starting five should undoubtedly be Pangos, Bell, Coleman, Dower, Karnowski. Second best line up would be Pangos, Bell, Coleman, Barham, Dower

ZagsGoZags
10-25-2013, 08:08 PM
IMHO second best team is Karno, Pangos, Bell, Gerard, and somebody (Barham)
I predict by seasons end Karno will be much higher in the NBA mock drafts, more likely to win WCC awards, than Sam. Of course I hope Sam has his best season ever, and I can't wait to see if the impossible can happen, i.e. much improvement on defense. I have felt he peaked, for the most part, a few years ago, but boy, would I ever love to have to eat those words in March.

Zagdawg
10-25-2013, 08:10 PM
Coleman looked good. His style of play will complement Kevin/Gary/Stocks.

I predict lots of outlet passes for a good number of easy baskets.

VinnyZag
10-25-2013, 08:23 PM
Doubt Coleman will be a reserve very long.

RenoZag
10-25-2013, 08:27 PM
Do Michael Kors specs translate into a better shooting percentage ? Fewer turnovers ? Higher assist to turnover ratio ?

The stuff we learn on the GUB. . .

RRZagFan
10-25-2013, 09:38 PM
Impressed with Coleman,his ability to get to basket is really going to help team,as far as him not only scoring but driving and then dishing out to open man for a 3.He also is good rebounder,the young girl next to me at the game made a comment about how his legs were as skinny as hers,made me chuckle.

NotoriousZ
10-26-2013, 08:50 AM
Super G
G Glide

Anyone got a good one?

Oregonzagnut
10-26-2013, 08:53 AM
Super G
G Glide

Anyone got a good one?

Gerard "The Stove" Coleman.

Light the Coleman Stove and you will get burned.

Or simply "The Stove".

DixieZag
10-26-2013, 08:56 AM
I agree with those that say it will be impossible to keep him out of the starting lineup.

I think our best line is the often thought of Pangos, Bell, Coleman, Dower, Karno. - - - Coleman simply provides far more versatility offensively and defensively than the 3 guard line up. The small line up should be used as a change of pace or if both Bell/Pangos are going off.

TheGonzagaFactor
10-26-2013, 09:17 AM
We have to start Coleman. If he were eligible last year he would have started. I love Stocks, but starting him all year over Coleman would be ridiculous. Coleman is raw in some areas, but his ability to get to the rim and finish is unlike any Zag I've seen aside from Pargo (at times) his sophomore year.

gu03alum
10-26-2013, 09:25 AM
He played one more minute than Stockton last night.

exclusivelee
10-26-2013, 10:00 AM
Coleman is a major piece to take Zags to the Elite 8 (this year or next year.... But most likely next year)

Oregonzagnut
10-26-2013, 11:11 AM
Coleman is a major piece to take Zags to the Elite 8 (this year or next year.... But most likely next year)

Finally, having every position be a scoring threat will open up everyone else and completely stretch out our opponents defenses. We have not had all 5 starting positions be at an elite level, since..... I don't know when. Once Hart replaced Edi last years team was pretty dominant, but Hart was not a scorer so defenses could double up on Kelly or Pangos.

Having Coleman be such a threat will open up our whole team.

gu03alum
10-26-2013, 11:36 AM
My guess is this has been posted somewhere else already, but I thought it was a good addition to the thread.

Gerard Coleman brings something different to Gonzaga’s attack this season (http://www.collegehoopsjournal.com/2013/10/12/gerard-coleman-brings-something-different-to-gonzagas-attack-this-season/)

Reborn
10-26-2013, 11:36 AM
Super G
G Glide

Anyone got a good one?

Gerard Coleman "The Roadrunner" "Beep beep; and he's gone." He can score quickly...and in bunches....

exclusivelee
10-26-2013, 11:55 AM
We have not had all 5 starting positions be at an elite level, since..... I don't know when.

Since the 2008-09 season:

PG: Jeremy Pargo
SG: Matt Bouldin
SF: Micah Downs / Steven Gray
PF: Austin Daye
C: Josh Heytvelt

Sacre was on medical redshirt

jazzdelmar
10-26-2013, 12:06 PM
Since the 2008-09 season:

PG: Jeremy Pargo
SG: Matt Bouldin
SF: Micah Downs / Steven Gray
PF: Austin Daye
C: Josh Heytvelt

Sacre was on medical redshirt


Lotsa talent right there. 13-14 will have to hustle to match them. Now 14-15, whole nother story......I'm seeing Pangos, Bell Coleman, Wiltjer, Karno......with Perk and fingers crossed Reid first off bench.

GrizZAG
10-26-2013, 12:53 PM
"Cole Train"...lots of energy

exclusivelee
10-26-2013, 02:17 PM
http://instagram.com/p/f6mXetO7h7/

Gerard Coleman @coleman_0
19 hours ago
Feels good to be back..That whole year of waiting was worth it..It's only the beginning..#ZagUp #GotTheLoveOfMyLifeBack

http://distilleryimage3.ak.instagram.com/18aa55ee3def11e3880f22000a1f9ca7_7.jpg

exclusivelee
10-26-2013, 02:18 PM
Is it too early to say "worth the wait" in terms of Gerard Coleman?

Reborn
10-26-2013, 03:29 PM
When David Stockton is on the court the Zags do not having scoring ability at all five positions. However, many believe his passing makes up for his poor scoring ability.

jazzdelmar
10-26-2013, 03:43 PM
When David Stockton is on the court the Zags do not having scoring ability at all five positions. However, many believe his passing makes up for his poor scoring ability.

What about his poor defensive ability?

Oregonzagnut
10-26-2013, 04:36 PM
What about his poor defensive ability?

+1

David will step up defensively this year and he will stand out. His ability to steal and confuse using his intelligence and wisdom as a defender. He is not a face up defender as much as he is very quick and cunning. His swarms the oponent and David is best when he is doing a surprise double team or when the opponent is in transition. David just seems to know where the ball is going and where everyone is standing. I believe his court awareness is best on the team and he will be on our clutch defensive teams as well as our clutch offensive sets.

David was high risk high reward last year. I believe he won't be the high risk this year and he will not be a part of so many of our teams mental miscues.

MDABE80
10-26-2013, 06:25 PM
I agree with Few. We've had nothing quite like Coleman. He kinda doesn't run..he floats. And he's got the best body control I've seen in quite some time. I don't know how the WCC will greet him or with what defense but I do know that he surprised me. a lot. Just the smooth way he gets up and down and how athletic he is up in the air will make it a treat to watch as he progresses. He's definitely a Big East play with major sophistocation.

Not a brute...but deft, careful and has a good nose for the hoop. Not sure about his defense yet but I doubt few will get a step on him. Quite the review from me anyway. Eye popping moves. We're lucky to have gotten him. He does need work from distance......I expect he'll work on that. Otherwise a very solid, unusual player.

jazzdelmar
10-26-2013, 06:32 PM
+1

David will step up defensively this year and he will stand out. His ability to steal and confuse using his intelligence and wisdom as a defender. He is not a face up defender as much as he is very quick and cunning. His swarms the oponent and David is best when he is doing a surprise double team or when the opponent is in transition. David just seems to know where the ball is going and where everyone is standing. I believe his court awareness is best on the team and he will be on our clutch defensive teams as well as our clutch offensive sets.

David was high risk high reward last year. I believe he won't be the high risk this year and he will not be a part of so many of our teams mental miscues.

Playing the passing lanes, taking chances on a steal and putting pressure on the interior defenders when you miss isn't good defense, even when you occasionally steal the ball.

jazzdelmar
10-26-2013, 06:34 PM
I agree with Few. We've had nothing quite like Coleman. He kinda doesn't run..he floats. And he's got the best body control I've seen in quite some time. I don't know how the WCC will greet him or with what defense but I do know that he surprised me. a lot. Just the smooth way he gets up and down and how athletic he is up in the air will make it a treat to watch as he progresses. He's definitely a Big East play with major sophistocation.

Not a brute...but deft, careful and has a good nose for the hoop. Not sure about his defense yet but I doubt few will get a step on him. Quite the review from me anyway. Eye popping moves. We're lucky to have gotten him. He does need work from distance......I expect he'll work on that. Otherwise a very solid, unusual player.

So, the kind of player Marquette seems to have a half dozen of every year? 😉

MDABE80
10-26-2013, 06:38 PM
Well, put like this: Few just turned things up a notch.........maybe a notch and a half. We'll see when the tough opponents show up.

GoZags
10-26-2013, 06:49 PM
So, the kind of player Marquette seems to have a half dozen of every year? ��

Washington gets a lot of those guys as well ..... but neither Marquette nor Washington have the "other" aspects of a basketball team like Gonzaga does vis a vis system, other players, coaching.

So, good for Marquette. They seem to get half a dozen "Coleman" types each year.

That doesn't mean that Coleman won't have an impact at Gonzaga over the next couple of years.

jazzdelmar
10-26-2013, 06:58 PM
Washington gets a lot of those guys as well ..... but neither Marquette nor Washington have the "other" aspects of a basketball team like Gonzaga does vis a vis system, other players, coaching.

So, good for Marquette. They seem to get half a dozen "Coleman" types each year.

That doesn't mean that Coleman won't have an impact at Gonzaga over the next couple of years.

GZ, just offering some context. Udub and Marquette shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence when it comes to putting players like Coleman in a system. At same time I would maintain the the Warriors are every bit the high achieving program the Zags are, while Wash is far down the track.

GoZags
10-26-2013, 07:13 PM
GZ, just offering some context. Udub and Marquette shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence when it comes to putting players like Coleman in a system. At same time I would maintain the the Warriors are every bit the high achieving program the Zags are, while Wash is far down the track.

Of course you are going to belittle Few's recruiting by throwing out that the new guy (Coleman) is a dime a dozen guy for the Golden Eagles (btw I won't refer to EWU as the "Savages" any longer or Stanford as the "Indians" any more either ..... times change but evidently some people don't).

I'm not debating Marquette's prowess as a hoops power (they are). My point was, and continues to be .... that Gerard Coleman has a chance to do something at Gonzaga (as a unique type of player for Gonzaga) vs what he'd do elsewhere. That was my point.

MDABE80
10-26-2013, 07:19 PM
Unless I'm not knowing Jazz very well, I think he was subtly and with mild sarcasm hinting at the same thing GZ. The kid's super....it's obvious. Jazz knows it. I know it. YOU know it. Let
s be happy with it:) taaaaaaaaaaaa daaaaaaaaa

Zagdawg
10-26-2013, 07:38 PM
Jazz just bringing us all back down to earth---reminding us how terrible David is and how average Coleman is for a team like Marquette----gotta appreciate the input.

Go Zags

Zaghuatanejo
10-26-2013, 07:39 PM
Super G
G Glide

Anyone got a good one?

The Cooler, G Cole, Gesus, Phil Mickelson

sittingon50
10-26-2013, 08:24 PM
That last one made me laugh nejo, though I'm not sure for the right reason!!

;)

jazzdelmar
10-27-2013, 05:00 AM
Unless I'm not knowing Jazz very well, I think he was subtly and with mild sarcasm hinting at the same thing GZ. The kid's super....it's obvious. Jazz knows it. I know it. YOU know it. Let
s be happy with it:) taaaaaaaaaaaa daaaaaaaaa

ok, maybe a little sarcastic. but my point was that players w coleman's profile can be found all over the power conferences, esp the BE, and I find it interesting so many here -- Few included -- say the Zags have never had one like him. to me, that sounds a bit defensive. the Zags have done pretty well without one, if thats the case. the major pt i was trying to make is that merely having that type of player on the roster is not a panacea (cf Udub, as per GZ). the challenge for the staff now is to merge that "unique" talent with the terrific players already on the team. GZ, I honestly was not trying to run down Few's recruiting accomplishment at all. the Zags have never had two east coast talents and I for one am especially looking forward to watching both Coleman and Nunez. And, Geez, I was JK about all those non PC nicknames.

Zagger
10-27-2013, 05:05 AM
Coleman's mantle burned bright - that was for sure. I'm sure he'll be starting at times if not regularly. I also feel that the whole Zags lineup has a high level of skill - and diversified skill at that. When it comes to Stockton, I personally think he's going to be the deciding factor in more than one game this season. Stocks is unique and he's getting better. As mentioned up thread, his intelligence and passing ability are important. The Zags don't have to put up 100 points each night. They just have to win games. IMHO, I feel that it is going to be very hard as an opposing team to out play the Zags this year. The depth/skill set of the team with Few's coaching could be very hard to beat.

Robzagnut
10-27-2013, 07:20 AM
If Stockton starts again that is a bad sign for the rest of the year. No defense and high turnover ratio is not good. Hopefully, Few was rewarding him for being a senior in their first home game, but that is it. He's a spark off the bench and a good backup PG, but that is it. There's too many other better players who are more qualified to be playing the 3; Drang, Coleman, Barnham or Nunez when he returns. By starting Stockton, Few is making the logjam at 3 even worse.

My hope is that Drang has improved so much that he is the first option off the bench to play the 1 or 2 with Stockton playing spot duty. That would be ideal.

Bushman
10-27-2013, 07:27 AM
How about the "lantern", he lights it up!

GoZags
10-27-2013, 07:49 AM
ok, maybe a little sarcastic. but my point was that players w coleman's profile can be found all over the power conferences, esp the BE, and I find it interesting so many here -- Few included -- say the Zags have never had one like him. to me, that sounds a bit defensive. the Zags have done pretty well without one, if thats the case. the major pt i was trying to make is that merely having that type of player on the roster is not a panacea (cf Udub, as per GZ). the challenge for the staff now is to merge that "unique" talent with the terrific players already on the team. GZ, I honestly was not trying to run down Few's recruiting accomplishment at all. the Zags have never had two east coast talents and I for one am especially looking forward to watching both Coleman and Nunez. And, Geez, I was JK about all those non PC nicknames.

No harm. No foul.

Sometimes "humor" doesn't come off as intended when conveyed on a keyboard vs in person.

I think we're all pretty fired up about what Gerard Coleman could mean for this program ........ and knowing that Angel is "just around the corner" is exciting, too.

Should be a fun year to follow Zag hoops ..... I know I'm looking forward to it.

Zagdawg
10-27-2013, 07:55 AM
Tommy mentioned it at the Alum get together in Spokane --- the staff believes that Stockton is currently one of the best 5 players on the team with what he brings to the table.

Coleman is a great contributor too-- Drang, Barham and Nunez all bring a different dynamic to the floor.

Tommy said that depending on the situation the starting lineup would change---who is going to earn the starting spot and who they are playing. It is not so much who starts --it is about who is in when the situation calls for it and who finishes.

I am sure that we will bring a number of different starting lineups throughout the year----don't want to play all of our cards for teams to gameplan for too early.

Go Zags

gonwick
10-27-2013, 08:11 AM
If Stockton is one of the top 5, this will be a long year. One problem with GU's inverted schedule is that few stays in his comfort zone early in the season because the games are tough (less of an issue this year). Then, late in the season, Few doesn't trust those who haven't played much, so they don't get much time. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because they don't develop as much as they might otherwise because they don't get time. Let's hope that some players step up so clearly that there is no doubt about who should be playing, because if stockton is in the starting 5 in the tournament (if GU makes it), the team is in trouble. He is great for a walkon, but most other teams would have recruited over him by now. Plus, we saw in two games last year what happens when he is on the floor at the finish.

Zagdawg
10-27-2013, 08:30 AM
I am sure that when Tommy said he "Currently is one of the top 5 on the team" ---the currently is the key word. The other players have the opportunity to prove themselves in practice and games that they belong on the floor.

If we are going to contribute the two losses to Stockton ---are you going to credit him for the #1 ranking and the #1 seed --best this program has ever achieved also as he was on the floor when the team achieved these accomplishments.

One player does not make a team-- the rest of the players know this and they even said not to blame a certain player for a mistake or a loss--it is a team sport---it just as easy to blame a player for a missed layup 2 mins into a game that cost a team two points as it is to blame an errant pass.

Next fans will be blaming Gary for not getting back on the court with his injury during the Wichita State game.

Let's give the team a few games into the year before we start hanging the staff and players.

Go Zags

GonzagasaurusFlex
10-27-2013, 08:43 AM
Tommy mentioned it at the Alum get together in Spokane --- the staff believes that Stockton is currently one of the best 5 players on the team with what he brings to the table.

Coleman is a great contributor too-- Drang, Barham and Nunez all bring a different dynamic to the floor.

Tommy said that depending on the situation the starting lineup would change---who is going to earn the starting spot and who they are playing. It is not so much who starts --it is about who is in when the situation calls for it and who finishes.

I am sure that we will bring a number of different starting lineups throughout the year----don't want to play all of our cards for teams to gameplan for too early.

Go Zags

I'm a fan of David Stockton but not a fan of a shifting starting lineup based on who the opponent is. This can hinder a team's development of identity, stability etc. and, worst case scenario, undermine players confidence in their coaches system. Players need to know their roles and use the regular season to fine-tune and add nuance to how they play together as a team.

As much as I like Stockton, I think for the sake of building a strong foundation for this team to grow on the starting 5 ought to include Coleman asap. Stockton is key backup for Pangos and Bell and will be able to key surges and momentum-swings when subbed in. Dranginis, Barham and Edwards will also be key players off the bench though I believe Stockton will see more minutes then any of them. Not sure how Nunez will be added into the mix come December....9 man rotations can work...10 man rotations not so much, IMHO. I think when you try to get 10 players meaningful minutes, your best players are not on the court enough.

DixieZag
10-27-2013, 08:58 AM
Given the ability to get the rim and the length on defense, I just cannot see how one would go about justifying starting (or giving big minutes) to the 3 guard Stockton, Pangos, Bell line-up. I do not see how one can honestly argue that the advantages outweigh the defensive liabilities and hole in the offense.

scott257
10-27-2013, 09:03 AM
If Stockton starts again that is a bad sign for the rest of the year. No defense and high turnover ratio is not good. Hopefully, Few was rewarding him for being a senior in their first home game, but that is it. He's a spark off the bench and a good backup PG, but that is it. There's too many other better players who are more qualified to be playing the 3; Drang, Coleman, Barnham or Nunez when he returns. By starting Stockton, Few is making the logjam at 3 even worse.

My hope is that Drang has improved so much that he is the first option off the bench to play the 1 or 2 with Stockton playing spot duty. That would be ideal.

New season, same second guessing. Mark Few has done a better job, over a longer period of time, than anyone that has coached in this relatively insignificant conference. This was a stupid exhibition game, David Stockton has played better than anyone ever expected and is now a senior. Mark Few rewards his seniors and relies on them for leadership through the season. Why use this as an opportunity to take shots at Stockton?

amaronizag
10-27-2013, 09:05 AM
The GU offensive game against SF started at a glacial pace with Stockton starting the game and running the ball. Karno was the dominant offensive presence in the paint and at the foul line until Coleman took the floor. As soon as Coleman came into the game, the atmosphere in the Kennel changed just as dramatically as the pace of play and tempo of the game. Coleman's present lit up the fans and the game. Why he didn't start is beyond me. I realize that his loosey-goosey freelancing style gives the coaches heartburn, but there is no denying the positive offensive results when he's in the game. The only reason he isn't starting now is that the staff has concerns about poor decisions he is prone to make on defense. Stockton has the same negatives on defense with no positives on offense to balance him out (IMO). Coleman played better than Stockton as the coaches have now seen post game using their own Individual Efficiency ratings for Coleman and Stockton for the SF game Friday night. Here are the numbers:
Coleman--30/6 = 5.0 (A++ rating) in 22 minutes.
Stockton--23/9 = 2.56 (B+ rating) in 21 minutes.

Also notable for the guard positions was Dranginis --16/3 = 5.33 (A++ rating).
Dower posted the best rating of his career while Karno was also an A+.

DixieZag
10-27-2013, 09:17 AM
New season, same second guessing. Mark Few has done a better job, over a longer period of time, than anyone that has coached in this relatively insignificant conference. This was a stupid exhibition game, David Stockton has played better than anyone ever expected and is now a senior. Mark Few rewards his seniors and relies on them for leadership through the season. Why use this as an opportunity to take shots at Stockton?

It's just fans talking about who they feel the starting line-up should be going into the season. It's harmless, no one is head hunting.

GoZags
10-27-2013, 09:23 AM
Kevin Pangos didn't start his first game at Gonzaga either. David Stockton started in his place that first game. I think Pangos has turned out okay ..... and I don't think he's been cheated out of starts or playing time.... ever.

Folks on this board are acting as if this is a big deal (Stockton starting over Coleman in an EXHIBITION game).

It isn't a big deal, except in some lifetime Stockton basher's minds.

Ekrub
10-27-2013, 09:31 AM
Agreed with Fox when he said that Stockton is a unique talent in the same vein as mike hart. Just with different strengths. If he shoots the same FT% and 3PT% as Pangos it would be a a tougher decision, but I think Coleman should get the start and minutes because of his ability to rebound (which we desperately need), his ability to finish in transition, his ability to find the open man in transition., and his speed and length.

Let's not pretend that the starting 5 is not important at all. How a team comes out sets the tone for the game. Stockton provides a nice change up, but he is a second team talent. That is not a slight at the guy, he is playing NCAA basketball for a top 25 team. He is very talented. However, Coleman is a better choice to start the game

Ekrub
10-27-2013, 09:32 AM
Double post

DixieZag
10-27-2013, 09:49 AM
Agreed with Fox when he said that Stockton is a unique talent in the same vein as mike hart. Just with different strengths. If he shoots the same FT% and 3PT% as Pangos it would be a a tougher decision, but I think Coleman should get the start and minutes because of his ability to rebound (which we desperately need), his ability to finish in transition, his ability to find the open man in transition., and his speed and length.

Let's not pretend that the starting 5 is not important at all. How a team comes out sets the tone for the game. Stockton provides a nice change up, but he is a second team talent. That is not a slight at the guy, he is playing NCAA basketball for a top 25 team. He is very talented. However, Coleman is a better choice to start the game

That's a good post E. Even if all else was equal, I would feel that Coleman deserves the start and more time b/c of the length provided on defense. That is something we haven't had in a long time and filling a real need.

Birddog
10-27-2013, 09:50 AM
Tommy mentioned it at the Alum get together in Spokane --- the staff believes that Stockton is currently one of the best 5 players on the team with what he brings to the table.

Pretty impressive actually when you consider how much time DS spends under the bus.

bigblahla
10-27-2013, 10:06 AM
Given the ability to get the rim and the length on defense, I just cannot see how one would go about justifying starting (or giving big minutes) to the 3 guard Stockton, Pangos, Bell line-up. I do not see how one can honestly argue that the advantages outweigh the defensive liabilities and hole in the offense.

Surprised me with this one Dixie. Coach has self admitted faith in Stocks. He always says he is the best passer and how important it is to feed the bigs. If teams choose to go directly at Stocks he is a liability but not so much in the normal flow of the game.

I'm more than pleasantly surprised with the roster as it sets. No, it's not the kind of team we have been use to but the diversity leads me to believe as long as we are the hunter we will outscore our opponents, not great "D" but maybe good enough.

Coleman is a treat to watch and hopefully he'll light a fire under Gary and Kyle as both have the ability to attack and finish at the rim or create their own shot in the paint. With the focus being paid to the rule book dribble penetration is going to be a gold mine of points for teams that recognize the opportunity at hand.

Just my opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

Hoopaholic
10-27-2013, 10:16 AM
it is early, pre season exhibition game....I am sure the best will float to the top and the staff will use the best options to win a game

That said, what I watched excited me as we have simply NOT had a three slot player like what I observed in a long long time and I have been stating for years that is the weak link of our zags.......hopefully we will see a continued upswing in the productivity level at the three each game and then I look forward to Nunez hitting the courts and provided even more competition at the 3 slot.....

The three slot with the ability to run the court, slash to the basket creates alot of angles and opportunities for ALL other players on the court....if the other players are ready to receive (post or shooter) then it creates a very difficult defensive game plan to prepare for as it makes it extremely difficult to sag, hedge or cheat to help against a dynamic slasher......and we have talked at naseum about the 4 vs 5 offensive issues we have had over the last few years.......

DixieZag
10-27-2013, 10:57 AM
Surprised me with this one Dixie. Coach has self admitted faith in Stocks. He's always says he is the best passer and how important it is to feed the bigs. If teams choose to go directly at Stocks he is a liability but not so much in the normal flow of the game.

I'm more than pleasantly surprised with the roster as it sets. No, it's not the kind of team we have been use to but the diversity leads me to believe as long as we are the hunter we will outscore our opponents, not great "D" but maybe good enough.

Coleman is a treat to watch and hopefully he'll light a fire under Gary and Kyle as both have the ability to attack and finish at the rim or create their own shot in the paint. With the focus being paid to the rule book dribble penetration is going to be a gold mine of points for teams that recognize the opportunity at hand.

Just my opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

No quibble at all from me. I have always deferred to the more experienced BB minds here. I just can't see us defending the elite guard lineups or being able to get many outside shots off with a line up starting 3 guys under 6'2. I do see what Stocks brings to us and I love the change of pace he brings. I just can't see how we can leave a guy like Coleman on the bench for a significant portion of the games.

I really don't know - admittedly. And, to be SURE, Few nearly never starts a first game player in the line up. That's fine, I get it. Obviously none of us are going to hyperventilate over a pre season starting line up, I sure don't want people thinking that I am.

I too was very pleasantly surprised seeing what we have. I was curious and hopeful about 4 things coming into the season. How is Karno going to move and attack. What does Coleman bring. Can Edwards give support in giving the guys a breather or in case of foul trouble.

And - IMO the most important and often stated by me - is Gary healthy and aggressive. I saw encouragement in all four facets. Not taking a lot of meaning off it, but couldn't see any negs in those aspects.

Peace.

sonuvazag
10-27-2013, 11:43 AM
I'm excited about Coleman but I don't agree that Stockton starting is a bad sign. It could be a sign that he's able to contribute at a higher level than the rest of us have seen.

The search function isn't helping me but I recall the same thing being said about Olynyk early last year in lieu of Karnowski/Dower and about Mike Hart throughout his career in lieu of anybody else.

In my opinion the issue isn't just between Coleman and Stockton.

Pangos and Bell need to become playmakers--opening lanes for cutters, executing timely passes and finishing in traffic. Stockton does those things.

MDABE80
10-27-2013, 12:00 PM
David's a good player. He helps quite a bit. A tempo changer who passes like none other. He'll find a spot. Few often may start a kid but once he gets the lay of the land, he subs in someone else. It's fluid and goes game by game. I honestly don't think an exhibition game means much when it comes to who begins the game on the court.
I suspect David will be threading lots of needles this year. Used judiciously David will be fine. As we all know, I wouldn't expect him to defend a 6 ft 2 or 3 guard....simply because of physical limitations....bt that dependson the skill of the 6 2 or 6 3 guard.
Mixing up those 5 to 6 players who divide up the 1 thru 3 spots gives lots of option depending on the team we're facing. As a distributor David is great. SOme games we
ll need him to find Coleman or Pangos or the bigs. He can do that.
As for how Few mixes up the the 1-3 positions remains to be seen. I only wish David could shoot better. It's not for lack of work...or confidence. As the season evolves, more will be known.

DixieZag
10-27-2013, 12:07 PM
David's a good player. He helps quite a bit. A tempo changer who passes like none other. He'll find a spot. Few often may start a kid but once he gets the lay of the land, he subs in someone else. It's fluid and goes game by game. I honestly don't think an exhibition game means much when it comes to who begins the game on the court.
I suspect David will be threading lots of needles this year. Used judiciously David will be fine. As we all know, I wouldn't expect him to defend a 6 ft 2 or 3 guard....simply because of physical limitations....bt that dependson the skill of the 6 2 or 6 3 guard.
Mixing up those 5 to 6 players who divide up the 1 thru 3 spots gives lots of option depending on the team we're facing. As a distributor David is great. SOme games we
ll need him to find Coleman or Pangos or the bigs. He can do that.
As for how Few mixes up the the 1-3 positions remains to be seen. I only wish David could shoot better. It's not for lack of work...or confidence. As the season evolves, more will be known.

QFT - - That's a good post.

It's not just when the bigs are dominating that he is a weapon. I expect both Pangos and Bell to have plenty of occasions when both are hitting from the outside. In those instances, it is great to have Stocks be able to have the ball in his hands while the two snipers hunt their shots. We all know that both Pangos and Bell are fine running the point. It's just that both can be such good shooters that they should not be burdened with handling the ball.

Larryzag
10-27-2013, 12:29 PM
In the exhibition game GU was MUCH better with Pangos, Bell, Coleman, Barham and Dower on the floor. The speed of our transition was amazing. Coleman penetrating and scoring or kicking out for Pangos and Barham threes is a huge weapon. If Barham can hold his own at the four and Dower at the five I think we will see this lineup get more and more time on the floor. I don't care who starts, I just want to see us use this combo often. At the game, it was like we were puttsing along slowly building a lead and then these guys got together and turned on the afterburners. i want more of that!

Zags11
10-27-2013, 01:14 PM
Coleman from what I saw should get 25-30 minutes a game. He can get to the hole at will in the 2 games I have watched him. He seems to only dribble with his left. I am not getting into bench him, bench that guy with this crowd. You got the same cliques on here as we did in highschool. Lol

Plus way too early. ;)

Vanzagger
10-27-2013, 02:14 PM
History will not be kind to the Stockton project if we don't win in March this year.

ZagsZombieNation
10-27-2013, 04:06 PM
If Stockton is one of the top 5, this will be a long year. One problem with GU's inverted schedule is that few stays in his comfort zone early in the season because the games are tough (less of an issue this year). Then, late in the season, Few doesn't trust those who haven't played much, so they don't get much time. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because they don't develop as much as they might otherwise because they don't get time. Let's hope that some players step up so clearly that there is no doubt about who should be playing, because if stockton is in the starting 5 in the tournament (if GU makes it), the team is in trouble. He is great for a walkon, but most other teams would have recruited over him by now. Plus, we saw in two games last year what happens when he is on the floor at the finish.

I agree on the inverted schedule issues. Many players have been victims of not playing in early season games and therefore not being trusted to play at the end of the season. Two examples that come to mind are Monninghoff and Keita their sophomore year. They never got in an early rhythm in limited minutes that season and were benched for most of the season. I worry that this could happen to Dranginis because he is currently 5th on the guard depth chart and might not play too much in close games behind Pangos, Bell, Coleman, and Stockton.

gonwick
10-27-2013, 05:10 PM
Funny you should mention Kyle because he is one of the people I was thinking of with this. Not to make it strictly about him, as it has affected many others, but kd had a good half against wsu in the tourney then didn't see the floor in the end. Of course, there were other games last year where he looked lost. When things tighten up, few tightens the rotation and for better or worse, stockton makes him feel comfortable. Maybe there will be enough room in some early games that everyone gets a good run and no one's growth is stunted.


I agree on the inverted schedule issues. Many players have been victims of not playing in early season games and therefore not being trusted to play at the end of the season. Two examples that come to mind are Monninghoff and Keita their sophomore year. They never got in an early rhythm in limited minutes that season and were benched for most of the season. I worry that this could happen to Dranginis because he is currently 5th on the guard depth chart and might not play too much in close games behind Pangos, Bell, Coleman, and Stockton.

MDABE80
10-27-2013, 06:18 PM
History will not be kind to the Stockton project if we don't win in March this year.

This is Bullchit.

Zagdawg
10-27-2013, 06:30 PM
+1

GoZags
10-27-2013, 07:14 PM
History will not be kind to the Stockton project if we don't win in March this year.

This is a thread started by my friend Miss Mendiant entitled "Coleman style ..." .... in the thread she praises Gerard and says she thinks he's a classy guy. I concur .... his postgame interview .... as soon as the "7 for 7" is brought up the first thing he talks about? His teammates ....... I like this guy.

Somehow this thread (again, entitled "Coleman style ..." after all, it was Gerard's first game as a Zag) turns into the same Stockton bashing that we've seen for 4 years now on this board .....

There are some posters that could turn an "Olynyk has big game for Celtics" thread into a Stockton bashing session.

Unreal.

bigblahla
10-27-2013, 07:26 PM
This is a thread started by my friend Miss Mendiant entitled "Coleman style ..." .... in the thread she praises Gerard and says she thinks he's a classy guy. I concur .... his postgame interview .... as soon as the "7 for 7" is brought up the first thing he talks about? His teammates ....... I like this guy.

Somehow this thread (again, entitled "Coleman style ..." after all, it was Gerard's first game as a Zag) turns into the same Stockton bashing that we've seen for 4 years now on this board .....

There are some posters that could turn an "Olynyk has big game for Celtics" thread into a Stockton bashing session.

Unreal.

+1 That pretty much sums it up.

Go!! Zags!!!

DixieZag
10-27-2013, 08:35 PM
+1 That pretty much sums it up.

Go!! Zags!!!

I agree that Stockton has been unfairly maligned and under appreciated throughout his entire career. I certainly wasn't bashing him. But, let's be fair, the discussion is about Coleman and the weapons that he brings. Any discussion about Coleman will involve arguments about how he is best used. Since we can't add a sixth player to the floor, it's only realistic to talk about who might need to share time and why - - as it relates to Coleman. So long as it is done without maliciousness and with recognition that everyone brings unique assets, I don't see the problem.

So long as it is centered around how to use Coleman best.

maynard g krebs
10-27-2013, 10:12 PM
Few was rewarding him for being a senior in their first home game

I think this is the case, and will be shocked if we see this lineup on a regular basis this year. Maybe in a couple more early gimme games. Much ado about little imo, and I think DS will be in the same role as the last 3 years when it counts. And it's great to have him there; he's as good a backup pg as you can have. Keeps the ship steady.

webspinnre
10-27-2013, 10:46 PM
I've got no problem with Stockton starting the first exhibition game of the year. Coleman still got plenty of playing time. I'll be alot more concerned if in our biggest games Coleman isn't getting significantly more minutes than Stockton. We're very fortunate to have a guy like David to be our backup PG. The only problem is when he ends up playing more than backup PG minutes without extenuating circumstances (Pangos injury/foul trouble).

scott257
10-28-2013, 05:17 AM
Somehow this thread (again, entitled "Coleman style ..." after all, it was Gerard's first game as a Zag) turns into the same Stockton bashing that we've seen for 4 years now on this board .....

There are some posters that could turn an "Olynyk has big game for Celtics" thread into a Stockton bashing session.

Unreal.

Amen.

exclusivelee
10-28-2013, 10:20 AM
the play where Coleman steals the ball and throws down an effortless dunk:

http://instagram.com/p/gBRYLTO7hg/

Gerard Coleman @coleman_0
37 minutes ago
1st bang out as a Zag..It's only the beginning..Feels good to be back! #ZagUp #SuaveLife #YoungGC

Oregonzagnut
10-28-2013, 11:54 AM
Stockton starting over Coleman was something Coleman agreed to I am sure. Maybe not happy but agreed. Coleman will start 30 games this year. Stockton gets to start the first game and the last game. I can deal with it. I love Stockton AND his game. But the fact is if he wouldn't make a bonehead mistake for every stellar play, we would be calling him "Like father like son". Everyone here seems to think Stockton can be summed up with 1-2 errant passes per game and the "Butler inbounds pass".

Stockton will cut down his mistakes this year and will rise to the top, even if it is behind Pangos. Stockton has greatness in him but he has to want it and learn to play more conservatively.

Coleman is the best wing we have had in years.

titopoet
10-28-2013, 11:56 AM
I honestly can't believe that this thread turned into Stockton bashing.

Gerard had a great game, I was very impressed. Stockton had some amazing passes, I was very impressed.

Hell, Ryan Edwards looked like he could start for most WCC teams after that game.

It's one game, against a D-2 opponent - chill out. Stockton, whether some of you like it or not, is part of the team, and he's a damned good contributor.

Now, as for Coleman, he reminded me of a bigger, more offensively talented Meech the way he darted from one side of the court to the other. I've been waiting for a player like this for years.

Stocks, and I was one of his big critics in his first season, has become a very (very) good D1 player. I know he would be welcome now on any team in D1 and be starting on most. That is my only point, my eating crow for a guy who has worked hard and made himself into a baller extraordinaire. Whatever happens this season David has made his mark for the good on GU basketball.

Zag 77
10-28-2013, 01:01 PM
When David Stockton is on the court the Zags do not having scoring ability at all five positions



Just to correct the record, David Stockton had 7 points, including a 3. Pangos had 8 points and Bell had 6. He scores more than Hart did. His contributions in assists and steals justify his playing time. He is not going to lead the nation in scoring, but that is not his role.

NumberCruncher
10-28-2013, 01:02 PM
Stocks, and I was one of his big critics in his first season, has become a very (very) good D1 player. I know he would be welcome now on any team in D1 and be starting on most. That is my only point, my eating crow for a guy who has worked hard and made himself into a baller extraordinaire. Whatever happens this season David has made his mark for the good on GU basketball.

Well stated. Here's a stat that supports your case.

These 9 players with significant time at the point for the Zags are listed in order by career assist to turnover ratio.

1. David Stockton
2. Kevin Pangos
3. Matt Santangelo
4. John Stockton
5. Blake Stepp
6. Derek Raivio
7. Dan Dickau
8. Jeremy Pargo
9. Demetri Goodson


Stocks is also the second best stealer of the basketball in Zag history. So those that think he makes as many mistakes as good plays are wrong. Everybody who handles the ball will make mistakes, including Coleman.

I really like Coleman and what he brings to the team. I'm betting his efficiency in Few's system will improve quite a bit from his numbers at Providence.

SteelCityZag
10-28-2013, 01:18 PM
Well stated. Here's a stat that supports your case.

These 9 players with significant time at the point for the Zags are listed in order by career assist to turnover ratio.

1. David Stockton
2. Kevin Pangos
3. Matt Santangelo
4. John Stockton
5. Blake Stepp
6. Derek Raivio
7. Dan Dickau
8. Jeremy Pargo
9. Demetri Goodson


Stocks is also the second best stealer of the basketball in Zag history. So those that think he makes as many mistakes as good plays are wrong. Everybody who handles the ball will make mistakes, including Coleman.

I really like Coleman and what he brings to the team. I'm betting his efficiency in Few's system will improve quite a bit from his numbers at Providence.

Yup. Fact is, we desperately need Stockton to take the point so that Kevin and Gary can hunt their shots. I think many on here feel that for a teams that's going to run 3 guards at the same time, they don't want to see Kevin and David out there at the same time. Coleman seems to solve this (perceived) problem, but the balance is that Kevin must then run the point and wont have the opportunity to find spots to shoot. This may well work at times against certain teams, especially when perimeter defense if factored in, but it will be a game-by-game matchup. There are plenty of ways to beat a team, even for an "outside-inside" one like us this year. But they're all going to play, and plenty. It's just going to have to be about matchups: which means exploiting other teams weaknesses while minimizing our own.

Hoopaholic
10-28-2013, 01:36 PM
oh quite the contrare'.......as a point guard passing to a slashing wing player, the ability to fall in behind the vacant gap for a kickback open look creates TREMENDOUS opportunities for a point guard with Kevins ability to spot up and shoot once we have a dynamic 3 wing.........

SteelCityZag
10-28-2013, 01:43 PM
oh quite the contrare'.......as a point guard passing to a slashing wing player, the ability to fall in behind the vacant gap for a kickback open look creates TREMENDOUS opportunities for a point guard with Kevins ability to spot up and shoot once we have a dynamic 3 wing.........

Not disputing that at all, merely stating that we're going to need multiple looks, combinations, and players to fill required roles, depending on whom we're playing. I like the kickback opportunity that Coleman's slashing creates, both for Kevin and Gary. We will need that, and a variety of other looks, depending on how we're being defended.

zag buddy
10-28-2013, 03:11 PM
Sometime this year David is going to dunk one. At 5ft9in that is amazing. I look forward to reading this board when that happens.

gu03alum
10-29-2013, 05:37 AM
http://media.tumblr.com/99aabdcdc0ecb0c050ad2dc8b7835e1b/tumblr_inline_mq09w4GfAa1qz4rgp.gif

Vanzagger
10-29-2013, 11:31 AM
Well stated. Here's a stat that supports your case.

These 9 players with significant time at the point for the Zags are listed in order by career assist to turnover ratio.

1. David Stockton
2. Kevin Pangos
3. Matt Santangelo
4. John Stockton
5. Blake Stepp
6. Derek Raivio
7. Dan Dickau
8. Jeremy Pargo
9. Demetri Goodson


Stocks is also the second best stealer of the basketball in Zag history. So those that think he makes as many mistakes as good plays are wrong. Everybody who handles the ball will make mistakes, including Coleman.

I really like Coleman and what he brings to the team. I'm betting his efficiency in Few's system will improve quite a bit from his numbers at Providence.

I hope we take care of business this year and do what we are suppose to. In the mean time, name another guard in the history of the NCAA that has played with at least 4 NBA bigs that never sniffed the 2nd weekend?

I don't want this era of Zag basketball to become a punch line because Few played favorites. Almost being the first 1 seed to bite it was bad enough.

NumberCruncher
10-29-2013, 12:50 PM
I hope we take care of business this year and do what we are suppose to. In the mean time, name another guard in the history of the NCAA that has played with at least 4 NBA bigs that never sniffed the 2nd weekend?

I don't want this era of Zag basketball to become a punch line because Few played favorites. Almost being the first 1 seed to bite it was bad enough.

Well, the obvious place to start was Georgetown.

Austin Freeman and Chris Wright
Played with Roy Hibbard, DeJuan Summers, Greg Monroe and Henry Sims

Jason Clark
Played with Greg Monroe, Henry Sims, Hollis Thompson and Otto Porter

The book is closed on all 3. The Zags have 3 guards that fit your criteria (assuming Karnowski makes the NBA - a good assumption IMO). All still have a chance to make the second weekend.

maynard g krebs
10-29-2013, 02:26 PM
I hope we take care of business this year and do what we are suppose to. In the mean time, name another guard in the history of the NCAA that has played with at least 4 NBA bigs that never sniffed the 2nd weekend?

I don't want this era of Zag basketball to become a punch line because Few played favorites. Almost being the first 1 seed to bite it was bad enough.

First of all, this would be more of an indictment of Pangos/Bell than of Stockton, as they are the starters and play more minutes by a good margin.

Second, the idea that Few plays favorites rather than putting out the lineups he thinks give him the best chance to win is pretty insulting, to say the least.

Third, Few knows more about basketball than you or I do.

Fourth, your schtick is really tiring.

Vanzagger
10-29-2013, 03:02 PM
Well, the obvious place to start was Georgetown.

Austin Freeman and Chris Wright
Played with Roy Hibbard, DeJuan Summers, Greg Monroe and Henry Sims

Jason Clark
Played with Greg Monroe, Henry Sims, Hollis Thompson and Otto Porter

The book is closed on all 3. The Zags have 3 guards that fit your criteria (assuming Karnowski makes the NBA - a good assumption IMO). All still have a chance to make the second weekend.

You really are a number cruncher. JT the 3rd has good job security at G-Town. That program knows what it looks like from the top of the mountain thanks to pops. Thanks for reminding me to double my bets vs the Hoyas this March in Vegas.

Krebs, Kevin and Gary have 2 more cracks at it. I like their chances next year a lot better since they won't have to play out of position as much.

Start Coleman and let Stockton sub for Pangos only

gamagin
10-30-2013, 09:00 AM
Well stated. Here's a stat that supports your case.

These 9 players with significant time at the point for the Zags are listed in order by career assist to turnover ratio.

1. David Stockton
2. Kevin Pangos
3. Matt Santangelo
4. John Stockton
5. Blake Stepp
6. Derek Raivio
7. Dan Dickau
8. Jeremy Pargo
9. Demetri Goodson


Stocks is also the second best stealer of the basketball in Zag history. So those that think he makes as many mistakes as good plays are wrong. Everybody who handles the ball will make mistakes, including Coleman.

I really like Coleman and what he brings to the team. I'm betting his efficiency in Few's system will improve quite a bit from his numbers at Providence.

Good stuff. Thanks, capt. Crunch. There are and remain a few zealots who have been dogging DS's performances since he walked on. One alleged "fan" has been bashing him since he was in high school. What a life !

Hart & KO had their regular detractors, too, before they became our best friends. But I think the favorite target has remained DS, our fifth year walk on.

And all DS has done is improve year after, as your stats show. Few et all expect this to continue with DS at the helm, often if not early on, for the new season as well. As a fan, I do too.

mendiant
10-30-2013, 04:43 PM
Do Michael Kors specs translate into a better shooting percentage ? Fewer turnovers ? Higher assist to turnover ratio ?

The stuff we learn on the GUB. . .

No, because he does not wear them while playing...however, they are quite good looking. I imagine his classroom demeanor is improved...