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BulldogZag
06-20-2013, 11:11 AM
Interesting take from Andy Glockner.

http://college-basketball.si.com/2013/06/20/how-wichita-state-topped-gonzaga/?sct=uk_t11_a5

BJZags
06-20-2013, 11:29 AM
I had not realized they scored on nine-consecutive possessions. The killer mini-stretch IMO was: KP sticks a three and Zags up seven. Then Olynyk dunk/lay-up "blocked." I remember screaming "foul" at the TV. If that call is made, Zags could have been up nine, and an entirely different outcome possible.

cggonzaga
06-20-2013, 11:32 AM
Interesting take and yes WSU was hot as can be. What it failed to touch on was the poor defense being played by us in that same span. To me it was a combination of both and the perfect storm for the Shockers.

Worthington
06-20-2013, 11:33 AM
Ugh I still get angry just reading about that game. I'll defend this team about that game to the death, Wichita St. went nuts on us in that final stretch...throw away every stat you had on the Shockers going into that game because the shots they were making were ones that they usually would have missed

B Wayne
06-20-2013, 11:35 AM
Wow great find and great article. Thanks Bulldog. So much more full of FACTS than the blaming and crying than we read on these boards.

The only thing I might add is that if you objectively look at top seven Wichita State players, with the exception of Olynyk, they are better players than the Zags. We just don't want to admit it because we get personally and emotionally involved almost like a love affair with our players.

Most of the posters said they would be happy just to make it to the Elite eight and lose to Ohio State in a competitive game. Well Wichita State defeated Ohio State and that wasn't luck or a fluke. Wichita State is a good team with damn good players. They were just underrated during the year because of injuries.

Finally Wichita State played national champs Louisville closer than any other team did in the tournament.

JPtheBeasta
06-20-2013, 11:36 AM
The perfect storm. Worse than UCLA, in my opinion.

maynard g krebs
06-20-2013, 11:36 AM
Glockner is right of course. And it probably doesn't happen with a healthy Bell on the floor. Excuses, I know. But nonetheless true.

zagco
06-20-2013, 11:38 AM
The missed obvious foul on KO was the key sequence in the game. Once again, the failure to call fouls is fundamental in the modern game of basketball.

HenneZag
06-20-2013, 11:39 AM
Brought back "Bad Memories"

CDC84
06-20-2013, 11:46 AM
What bothered me about that game was that WSU wasn't a very good offensive team, and also not a very good three point shooting team. The Zags were in the top 20 in defensive efficiency and an elite offense. On paper the Shockers had no business winning that game, although I didn't expect a blow out by any means.

It didn't remind me of the UCLA thing because UCLA was seeded higher, had more overall roster talent & was expected to win the game. I still argue that the game was lost in the 1st half. The Zags should've had the Bruins down by 25 points, minimum, at the half. They were terrible...the worst 20 minute performance against the Zags of any team all season.

BJZags
06-20-2013, 11:56 AM
The missed obvious foul on KO was the key sequence in the game. Once again, the failure to call fouls is fundamental in the modern game of basketball.

Of course, slipper on the other foot (ha ha), the Shockers would have been screaming "let 'em play" if the call had been made.

VinnyZag
06-20-2013, 12:09 PM
What bothered me about that game was that WSU wasn't a very good offensive team, and also not a very good three point shooting team.

That's what I thought, too, based on their season statistics -- both KenPom and traditional. I was happy they got Wichita State instead of Pitt. Very loudly happy.

This paragraph from Glockner's story is enlightening:



(Along with Baker’s return from injury after missing 21 games, Cotton’s turnaround made Wichita State a much more capable perimeter shooting team than they appeared on paper — even after a 2-for-20 clankfest from the arc against Pitt two days earlier. That was despite them missing their best shooter, Evan Wissel, who was lost for the season in December to a broken finger.)

The team GU played wasn't exactly the same team that put up average to below average offensive numbers during the season. That, and they played above their heads against GU.

cjm720
06-20-2013, 12:09 PM
"Nine possessions. 23 points. A six-point deficit turned into a seven-point lead in just over seven minutes. The opponent, the top-ranked team in the land, had scored 1.25 points per possession during the surge, a figure that would have led Division I for the season. The Zags didn’t choke. They were beaten by one of the greatest stretches of clutch offense we’ll ever see.

There’s no shame in that. The only shame is Wichita State didn’t get enough credit for it at the time. Maybe the Shockers will now."

They played there best, we played not horribly. They won and went on to win two more and reached the Final 4. No shame losing to a team like that regardless of expectations.

cjm720
06-20-2013, 12:11 PM
The article didn't mention Gary Bell's injury....our best perimeter defender.

Zippyzaggy
06-20-2013, 12:22 PM
"The Zags didn't choke. They were beaten by one of the greatest stretches of clutch offense we’ll ever see."

Some elite D would have, and should have, stopped that mess.

Maybe a tactical timeout or two during this rare stretch of great offense to regroup, and perhaps mess up their rhythm? Something?

If you believe this, then bad things simply happen to us....HOGWASH.

Chicken Ball
06-20-2013, 12:23 PM
Interesting take and yes WSU was hot as can be. What it failed to touch on was the poor defense being played by us in that same span. To me it was a combination of both and the perfect storm for the Shockers.
It's true we played poor defense; but, even playing poor defense, the odds are mightily against a team scoring 23 points in 9 possessions. Even if we had 5 Dickaus on the floor, 23 points in 9 possessions would have been improbable.

LongIslandZagFan
06-20-2013, 12:27 PM
The article didn't mention Gary Bell's injury....our best perimeter defender.

IMHO... That was the key.

LongIslandZagFan
06-20-2013, 12:28 PM
"The Zags didn't choke. They were beaten by one of the greatest stretches of clutch offense we’ll ever see."

Some elite D would have, and should have, stopped that mess.

Maybe a tactical timeout or two during this rare stretch of great offense to regroup, and perhaps mess up their rhythm? Something?

If you believe this, then bad things simply happen to us....HOGWASH.

FireFew.com

DixieZag
06-20-2013, 01:36 PM
"The Zags didn't choke. They were beaten by one of the greatest stretches of clutch offense we’ll ever see."

Some elite D would have, and should have, stopped that mess.

Maybe a tactical timeout or two during this rare stretch of great offense to regroup, and perhaps mess up their rhythm? Something?

If you believe this, then bad things simply happen to us....HOGWASH.

Some elite D?

The article specifically recalls the key (IMO) basket of the Shockers came on a ball that was barely being handled 4 ft beyond the 3pt line at the top of the key, one dribble "to steady it" and the launch of a rainbow that hit nothing but net. The guy was totally out of control and the ball went through - - it also mentions what the coach calls the "quickest catch and shoot" he has ever seen.

I think it is one thing to say that the Shockers weren't lucky but were very talented, it is quite another to say that "elite D" would have stopped them. Would "elite D" been paired up with enough consistent offense to make that come back and put them up or do we now require elite D and elite O? Ohio State is known for "elite D" from their perimeter guards and they got sucked up also.

The coaches have made some bad moves that have cost them games in the past and I don't like the passiveness that they tend to play late in the year but I refuse to assign blame on OUR team for every single loss, there are some games that a team is simply caught against steam roller and that is what happened here - as the article noted.

MDABE80
06-20-2013, 02:52 PM
I told you all right after the game when everyone was angry, hurt or just paralyzed from this loss, the odds of this happening were right at 1000 to 1.

It was an absolute freakish occurence. We paly well enough to win. They just played better with their incredible shooting.

ZagNick
06-20-2013, 03:27 PM
Zags lost because they were not smart enough to change their defense ...IMO if a team scores on 9 straight possessions it is time to change from our zone ....Stockton was/is too small to challenge WSU's 3 point shooters ...

On the other hand ....WSU was something like 4 for 24 from 3 in their previous game ...

Over the last several years it seems like everyone we play goes off on 3 pointers ...I guess we play so much zone because our players are slow footed and not as athletic as some teams; but certainly not true of WCC opponents ...

Zags11
06-20-2013, 05:40 PM
That is one man's opinion. Too many times we have lost early by the 3 ball. Everybody has opinions, reasons, excuses,etc.

Then the facts are facts. Last yr is behind us. Time to break through.

maynard g krebs
06-20-2013, 05:41 PM
As Dan Dickau has said on more than one occasion, great offense beats great defense.

GU did call a timeout when Wichita got within 1 at 61-60, at the 4:23 mark, then came the tv timeout just under a minute later. So 2 timeouts during the run. After the tv t o, Wichita scored, then GU had the ball for like a minute and a half, due to 2 offensive rebounds resulting in 3 straight possessions (all misses); then Wichita made another 3. They had one more possession before the next GU t o.

The idea that lack of timeouts to stop the run was a mistake by the coaches is not substantiated by a look at the ESPN play by play.

Vanzagger
06-20-2013, 05:47 PM
David -25


If you have to have him out there make sure it's with 4 others who are long and can defend


I blame coach for his stubbornness more than I blame the player. Give him a chance to succeed

Oregonzagnut
06-20-2013, 07:23 PM
Interesting take and yes WSU was hot as can be. What it failed to touch on was the poor defense being played by us in that same span. To me it was a combination of both and the perfect storm for the Shockers.

Poor defense isn't what I would call it. We had average perimeter (but its relative) defense and great interior D most of the year. But the fact that Bell got injured and was gone the 2nd half, our defense was mediocre and they got super hot.

Plus we got flustered at the end with that critical inbounds flop. Momentum was lost and we ran out of time.

Not once did this article mention we lost our defensive stopper and our starting SG for that 2nd half. Show me how many other teams (sans Louisville/Ware) that could survive that against WSU's hot hands?

MDABE80
06-20-2013, 07:35 PM
If any of you has the video of this game, you'll soon see that our defense wasn't bad. Every shot in their run was contested very well except 1 or 2. In that period, our guys had hands in the faces of the shooters......nobody from WSU was left WIDE open. Once thing that did ovvur was that WSU made incredible shots with or without someone in the shooters face.
Those who think otherwise should go see for themselves. WSU just got incredibly hot.and out of nowhere. Ours was the only game they did this. We did NOT given them wide open shots..... we just got beat by incredible shooting.

TheGonzagaFactor
06-20-2013, 08:03 PM
I'll never forget... right after the hack on Kelly that wasn't called (more like 3 hacks in the same sequence) Wichita came back in transition, got away with the most obvious uncalled travel EVER, then drained a deep 3. How they don't blow the whistle to our benefit but continue to put Wichita on the line for weak contact I will never understand. Everyone wanted to see us go down once we were ranked #1, and the refs played along.

Ezag
06-20-2013, 08:21 PM
Maybe we didn't choke this game but still doesn't help our rep after a series of NCAA "chokes".

BTB
06-20-2013, 08:56 PM
David -25


If you have to have him out there make sure it's with 4 others who are long and can defend


I blame coach for his stubbornness more than I blame the player. Give him a chance to succeed

Why do you hate David so much?



I'll never forget... right after the hack on Kelly that wasn't called (more like 3 hacks in the same sequence) Wichita came back in transition, got away with the most obvious uncalled travel EVER, then drained a deep 3. How they don't blow the whistle to our benefit but continue to put Wichita on the line for weak contact I will never understand. Everyone wanted to see us go down once we were ranked #1, and the refs played along.

I was always taught "if you have to blame the refs you didn't deserve to win in the first place." Besides that, the refs had very little to do with the outcome of the game. Just give Wichita State some credit.

Oregonzagnut
06-20-2013, 10:05 PM
Maybe we didn't choke this game but still doesn't help our rep after a series of NCAA "chokes".

Luckily after we are all calming down, the nation is now seeing the successful year we had and that we just got beat by a super hot streak.

Still no one wants to notice Bell was injured and out. We weren't even at full strength and we should have beat that FF team.

Vanzagger
06-20-2013, 10:28 PM
I love him.

Meech was in everybody's starting 5 after he beat Hilltoppers. I posted bad idea. Why? We already had 2 huge pg's in Gray & Bouldin. Guys you can run the offense through and win in march.

I know I was never accused of hating Meech and I doubt he ever had a -25. I don't know if anyone has

Here's to David Stockton playing big minutes and getting Few out of the round of 32. I'm all for it.

Vanzagger
06-20-2013, 10:44 PM
We can start with Louisville if someone wants to start naming great college teams with a smaller guard or 2


Louisville was a long team that played unbelievable D. That's what I love the most.

Length and D

scott257
06-21-2013, 02:00 AM
I was always taught "if you have to blame the refs you didn't deserve to win in the first place." Besides that, the refs had very little to do with the outcome of the game. Just give Wichita State some credit.

That is what you tell kids to keep them from whining. Reality is, we expect refs would make a reasonable attempt to call the game correctly. In this case they blew it badly. The foul on Kelly was obvious. The missed traveling call was horrible. There is no excuse for missing that traveling call. Whether it would have had an impact in the final result is open to debate. WSU was playing great and history is history. The refs that missed the foul could probably be excused. They should be ashamed though about the missed traveling call - that WSU player hopped like a fifth grader.

jazzdelmar
06-21-2013, 04:00 AM
The article didn't mention Gary Bell's injury....our best perimeter defender.


The Bell excuse is ingrained now and it does have some merit. But was he going to guard all five Shockers? As I recall, their scoring was extremely well distributed so even if he were a "stopper" there would be others to throw up threes. The Zags just got beat.

bartruff1
06-21-2013, 05:05 AM
SI.com...one on one this morning...

SteelCityZag
06-21-2013, 05:59 AM
That is what you tell kids to keep them from whining. Reality is, we expect refs would make a reasonable attempt to call the game correctly. In this case they blew it badly. The foul on Kelly was obvious. The missed traveling call was horrible. There is no excuse for missing that traveling call. Whether it would have had an impact in the final result is open to debate. WSU was playing great and history is history. The refs that missed the foul could probably be excused. They should be ashamed though about the missed traveling call - that WSU player hopped like a fifth grader.

Sorry, but I have to agree with BTB on this one. Blaming the refs for a loss IS WHINING. Basketball is a physical game with many ways to win (or lose). While there will always be mitigating circumstances (refs, hot streaks, injuries, what-have-you) in the end, you either prove it or lose it.

I knew WSU was a quality team after they had beaten us and before this article was written, though I appreciate that it was because the media jumped so hard on the "Zags were overrated" bandwagon. I never bought into that b.s. and I still don't. WSU went to the Final Four because they did many things well.

I also remember them giving Louisville about all they could handle until late in that game. But in the end, Louisville proved to out-tough the Shockers and beat them in more aspects of the game. We didn't.

Many ways to win. Many ways to lose.

Zagdawg
06-21-2013, 06:04 AM
http://college-basketball.si.com/2013/06/20/how-wichita-state-topped-gonzaga/?sct=uk_t12_a2

ZagLawGrad
06-21-2013, 06:59 AM
Missed free throws.

Good night.

Vanzagger
06-21-2013, 07:33 AM
BTB & SCZ I like your no excuse mentality. Refs, no matter how bad, don't lose anything. Wow and I'm saying that to someone with the name Steelcity. Catch the ball Jerammy Stevens!

Louisville could have used the injury excuse. They just plugged in another long shooting guard who went crazy. I think he started the 2nd half.

thegloriousgoateeofKP
06-21-2013, 07:42 AM
Anyone have video to refresh my memory? I remember the no-call foul, but not the no-call travel

B Wayne
06-21-2013, 10:17 AM
Many of our fans appear to undervalue Wichita State's players because of the school's lack of noteriety and name recognition in the Pacific Northwest. How soon we forget 1998 when fans across the country were describing the basketball team from little known Gonzaga University as "Cinderella" rather than recognizing that it was rife with talented players like Casey Calvary and Matt Santangelo. This is why the players and staff on that team did not care for the Cinderella label.

I'm sure that fans of Florida, Stanford and Minnesota that year were saying similar things about Gonzaga that posters here are writing about our game with Wichita State. "We were the better team, we just gave the game up to them." "We would have won the game, but we just didn't play our best game." "We should have won the game, but the refs made bad calls." "We would have won the game, but one of our players was injured." "Our coaches made the wrong decisions during the game, but we were the better team."

Hey Florida fans of 1998 and Gonzaga 2013, rather than all these elaborate explanations, how about a little use of Ocaam's Razor and keep it simple with something like "The better team won."

After watching the Shocker's next games against La Salle (win) Ohio State (win) and Loisville (close loss to National Champion) and all of Gonzaga's games, here is how I rank the Zag and Shocker players.

1) Kelly Olynyk
2) Malcom Armstead
3) Carl Hall
4) Cleanthony Early
5) Elias Harris
6) Ron Baker
7) Kevin Pangos
8) Fred Van Vleet
9/10) Gary Bell /Takeil Cotton (push)

Don't get me wrong, I thought this years Zag team was VERY GOOD. I think they were a top ten team. But let's not lose sight that we just got by Southern University in the first round.

Finally just remember what Charles Barkley said after the game. Wichita State won because of foot speed. This is what translates to what others on the board call lack of defense by the Zags. This notion of foot speed/defense is not a matter of bad luck/ bad day/ poor reffing/poor coaching, but rather skill level of the players.

And using Gary Bell's injury is not a persuasive excuse. He couldn't cover all five players and don't forget Wichita States best shooter was out with an injury as well.

jbslicer
06-21-2013, 11:35 AM
As jazz said, the Zags got beat.
Time to move on folks, that was three months ago.
How about LeBron last night?

Zippyzaggy
06-21-2013, 01:02 PM
Some elite D?

The article specifically recalls the key (IMO) basket of the Shockers came on a ball that was barely being handled 4 ft beyond the 3pt line at the top of the key, one dribble "to steady it" and the launch of a rainbow that hit nothing but net. The guy was totally out of control and the ball went through - - it also mentions what the coach calls the "quickest catch and shoot" he has ever seen.
.

Yeah, some elite D would have helped. So, a rainbow falls from the heavens, I can get that happens once. But that last 9 minute segment was laughable and FILLED with error on the Gonzaga players and coaches. I don't give a rip what the article says, imo, it's nothing but an excuse for our failure!

Poor, poor zags, soooo unlucky we got zippydoodahed by the gods cr*p aint working for me.

We didn't get it done. PERIOD.

Zippyzaggy
06-21-2013, 01:05 PM
As jazz said, the Zags got beat.
Time to move on folks, that was three months ago.
How about LeBron last night?

So who appointed you the "the threads over" god? Incredible how bossy some peeps are, lol.

Unfortunately, it will NEVER be over. We will, and can, be discussing that colossal failure vs Whichever State forever, in my humble opine. :)

Zippyzaggy
06-21-2013, 01:12 PM
As Dan Dickau has said on more than one occasion, great offense beats great defense.

GU did call a timeout when Wichita got within 1 at 61-60, at the 4:23 mark, then came the tv timeout just under a minute later. So 2 timeouts during the run. After the tv t o, Wichita scored, then GU had the ball for like a minute and a half, due to 2 offensive rebounds resulting in 3 straight possessions (all misses); then Wichita made another 3. They had one more possession before the next GU t o.

The idea that lack of timeouts to stop the run was a mistake by the coaches is not substantiated by a look at the ESPN play by play.

I stand corrected about the one part of my post that a timeout or two would have maybe helped. During my meltdown and near suicide I apparently blocked that part out. Still, SOMETHING should have been done. It was beyond embarrassing. And to have that happen to the Zags vs anybody else? Groooooooooan, the heads-aches back.

DADoZAG
06-21-2013, 01:13 PM
We didn't get it done.

Didn't realize you were part of the team, Zippy.

Go ZAGS!

Zippyzaggy
06-21-2013, 07:26 PM
Didn't realize you were part of the team, Zippy.

Go ZAGS!

THEY didn't get it done.....happy?

Now you'll be able to call me a troll because I'm not in the "we" catagory I spose.

But thanks for your thoughtful insight though. Must have taken quite a lot of effort. Don't work so hard......lighten up on yourself maybe?

maynard g krebs
06-21-2013, 08:16 PM
On a Wednesday evening in the summer of 08, 4 kids from the South Eugene varsity that missed the 8 team 4A state tourney by 1 game are running everybody on one of the 2 courts at the Eugene Y. The waiting line is shorter on that court because they're killing everybody, so mid-50's me joins 3 early 20's guys I know a bit who are waiting for the next game. One of them's a real player on the level of our opponents, the other 2 are younger versions of me; i.e second string jv caliber in hs.

So obviously they're not taking us too seriously, but old me and one of the kids can get hot from the outside occasionally, our stud can draw the d and finish or find the open shooter if somebody helps. So they don't take old bald bearded fat maynard g krebs seriously, and I hit like 5 of 7 from deep, like I can do once every couple weeks if left unguarded, the other shooter hits a couple, our other guys hit a couple circus drives and we're up 7-1, and manage to hold on to beat em 11-8.

If we play em 99 more times, we don't ever score more than 5 or 6 in a game to 11.

Point is, in basketball anything can happen in a given game. Those who actually play(ed) the game understand this and can grasp what can happen in a one game scenario. Sometimes players get hot. Sometimes teams get hot. Doesn't mean anybody choked or the coaches are idiots. It's just basketball, and that's how it works sometimes.

Zags11
06-21-2013, 08:52 PM
I agree maynard. Sometimes people DO get HOT and shots fall. I think mainly people's issues are, that all of the talented teams we had we still cant make past sw16.

MTZag03
06-21-2013, 09:29 PM
THEY didn't get it done.....happy?

Now you'll be able to call me a troll because I'm not in the "we" catagory I spose.

But thanks for your thoughtful insight though. Must have taken quite a lot of effort. Don't work so hard......lighten up on yourself maybe?

I agree.

All my friends rail on me anytime I say "we" referring to one of the two teams in all of sports that I care about - GU being one. Yes, I have an emotional connection to the team and I identify with them. I also to a degree live vicariously through them. So what? It's life. Regrettably in the case of Gonzaga I was never on the basketball team (although once I did register for the basketball team when there was a glitch in the program). However I did actually represent GU in D1 athletics, so I think it is entirely appropriate for me and other people to say we versus they when referring to the team. Otherwise why do we spend so much time here? Why do we care? If we don't identify passionately with our student athletes, the student body, the university, and the alumni, then why follow basketball at all?

Ekrub
06-22-2013, 10:37 AM
Andy Glockner is definitely a GU sympathizer. I've tweeted him a few times about the zags and he has mentioned back about our bad tournament luck.

Zags11
06-22-2013, 10:45 AM
Didn't realize you were part of the team, Zippy.

Go ZAGS!

WE ARE all part of the Zag's. Without us, all these teams would be nothing. Why cuz if a players shoots a 3 and no one cares to listen or see it, does it matter?

WE ARE G.U.

Zags11
06-22-2013, 10:46 AM
I agree.

All my friends rail on me anytime I say "we" referring to one of the two teams in all of sports that I care about - GU being one. Yes, I have an emotional connection to the team and I identify with them. I also to a degree live vicariously through them. So what? It's life. Regrettably in the case of Gonzaga I was never on the basketball team (although once I did register for the basketball team when there was a glitch in the program). However I did actually represent GU in D1 athletics, so I think it is entirely appropriate for me and other people to say we versus they when referring to the team. Otherwise why do we spend so much time here? Why do we care? If we don't identify passionately with our student athletes, the student body, the university, and the alumni, then why follow basketball at all?

Beautiful. Agree 250%

Zippyzaggy
06-22-2013, 11:50 PM
WE ARE all part of the Zag's. Without us, all these teams would be nothing. Why cuz if a players shoots a 3 and no one cares to listen or see it, does it matter?

WE ARE G.U.

Yeah, what he said.

Kinda nice not to get blasted because you have an opinion that may not be agreed upon by 100% of the posters. Ahhhhhhh, an odd feeling...but I could get used to it.

Now, back to my prozac. And Zag jammies. :)

ZagaZags
06-23-2013, 01:32 AM
Gonzaga FG 36% 21/59 WSU FG 50% 25/50
Gonzaga 3 PT 35% 8/23 WSU 3 PT 50% 14/28
Gonzaga FT 69% 20/29 WSU FT 67% 12/18
Gonzaga REB 39 WSU REB 30

Missed bunnies cost GU the game.

zagco
06-23-2013, 07:10 AM
The no-call foul on KO was so obvious that no serious observer, even Shockers, would have argued it.

siliconzag
06-23-2013, 07:21 AM
While I anticipated, in fact predicted that our beloved Zags would go down to Wichita (and mostly for match up issues), it felt awful. However, by now we should be used to going down early, if not often, in the NCAAs. Making the tournament 14 years straight is an accomplishment to be proud of.

Wichita was always capable of shooting a high percentage of shots. They shot 53% in Omaha against my Blue Jays (and lost by a dozen because Creighton shot 70%). Wichita plays good defense, rebounds well, and when they get hot, they can beat just about anybody, ask Rick Pitino. It's time to do like Emy Lou...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzTirzJsFM8

GoZags
06-23-2013, 08:38 AM
While I anticipated, in fact predicted that our beloved Zags would go down to Wichita (and mostly for match up issues), it felt awful. However, by now we should be used to going down early, if not often, in the NCAAs. Making the tournament 14 years straight is an accomplishment to be proud of.

Wichita was always capable of shooting a high percentage of shots. They shot 53% in Omaha against my Blue Jays (and lost by a dozen because Creighton shot 70%). Wichita plays good defense, rebounds well, and when they get hot, they can beat just about anybody, ask Rick Pitino. It's time to do like Emy Lou...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzTirzJsFM8

I agree with siliconzag's sentiments here. That being said .... here's a slight correction. While it's true that HC Mark Few's Zags have been to 14 straight NCAA tournaments, the Gonzaga program has been 15 straight. I point that out because, in the history of NCAA Men's Basketball .... only 6 programs have had longer streaks.

And in terms of current (or active) streaks .... only three schools have longer active streaks than Gonzaga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Men's_Division_I_Basketball_Tournament_consec utive_appearances)

What's interesting to me is only 5 schools currently have active streaks longer than 8 consecutive.

We all know that there's much more work to be done. I'm looking forward to the Zags' next Sweet 16, their next Elite 8, and their first Final Four. I'm confident that these will happen in my lifetime (which is a comment that would have been deemed ludicrous 15 years ago today).

Oregonzagnut
06-23-2013, 09:20 AM
Gonzaga FG 36% 21/59 WSU FG 50% 25/50
Gonzaga 3 PT 35% 8/23 WSU 3 PT 50% 14/28
Gonzaga FT 69% 20/29 WSU FT 67% 12/18
Gonzaga REB 39 WSU REB 30

Missed bunnies cost GU the game.

As the article states it was more Wichita hitting shots on 9 straight possessions with Bell being out.

We win by 6-7 if Bell is playing because he would have stopped 2-3 of those threes they made in that 9 possession stretch. Also Stockton would not have been on the botched inbounds.

Have I driven home 10 times now that no one is mentioning Bell (our top perimeter defender) being injured?

kyle dixon
06-23-2013, 09:32 AM
The Zags lost. No one can argue if so and so played the Zags would have won. WSU was better that day. WSu went to the Final Four, the Zags lost in the round of 32, again.

Oregonzagnut
06-23-2013, 09:32 AM
In the history of NCAA Men's Basketball .... only 6 programs have had longer streaks.

And in terms of current (or active) streaks .... only three schools have longer active streaks than Gonzaga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Men's_Division_I_Basketball_Tournament_consec utive_appearances)

What's interesting to me is only 5 schools currently have active streaks longer than 8 consecutive.

This fact means H.S. recruits will honestly believe they will have 4-5 opportunities to play in the NCAA tournament during their career. And they can see that if they really are as good as they think, they will know that they will be the ones to put us over the edge. Every kid wants to play in the Dance and our consistency is matched by only 4-5 other programs, EVER.

That will bring recruits on its own in spite of Wichita beating us.

ZAGGED OUT
06-23-2013, 09:53 AM
As the article states it was more Wichita hitting shots on 9 straight possessions with Bell being out.

We win by 6-7 if Bell is playing because he would have stopped 2-3 of those threes they made in that 9 possession stretch. Also Stockton would not have been on the botched inbounds.

Have I driven home 10 times now that no one is mentioning Bell (our top perimeter defender) being injured?

And 10 times we've realized that's a moot point OZN. WSU was 7/14 from deep in the first half IIRC, and Bell was in that whole time. Bell is one man, their whole team was hitting. It's not like Bell coul have guarded Early and stopped any of his three 3's. It was bad team defense combined with insanely hot shooting. If you want to blame somebody, blame few for not developing our bench better through out the season. Dranginis has a skill set that would hve helped tremendously when GB went down but for most of the season he was sat for Barham. IMO the #1 team in the nation should have the ability to beat a team like WSU even when a guard goes down.

bartruff1
06-23-2013, 10:00 AM
Damn...if only you experts had been coaching...

bballbeachbum
06-23-2013, 12:01 PM
Damn...if only you experts had been coaching...

no #### bartruff

however I don't buy into the spin that teams get hot and there's nothing to be done. Disagree. So does that mean GU's better 3 point D with Bell has nothing to do with Bell?

yes, teams get hot, and yes, there are ways to cool them off too. How about Green going crazy (getting hot) in the Finals, and then Miami game planning to run him off the line in games 6 and 7 when he struggled mightily? Did he just go cold, or did the D adjust?

edit: bigger question to me is that KO went 0-3 from deep and KP 4-12. that's 27%, and most of those were good looks. throw in their combined 13-19 from the line at 68% and E's poor start...loss. It still took that amazing shooting performance from WSU to pull it off, but GU (we???) can look in the mirror for the answers imo. Not luck, or unlucky

Oregonzagnut
06-23-2013, 12:50 PM
And 10 times we've realized that's a moot point OZN. WSU was 7/14 from deep in the first half IIRC, and Bell was in that whole time. Bell is one man, their whole team was hitting. It's not like Bell coul have guarded Early and stopped any of his three 3's. It was bad team defense combined with insanely hot shooting. If you want to blame somebody, blame few for not developing our bench better through out the season. Dranginis has a skill set that would hve helped tremendously when GB went down but for most of the season he was sat for Barham. IMO the #1 team in the nation should have the ability to beat a team like WSU even when a guard goes down.

Then it's all moot. But IMO, losing Bell mattered a lot.

Zags11
06-23-2013, 12:59 PM
Everyone is a arm chair coach or player. Sometimes teams are just hot and cant be stopped. However, IMO when you lose every NCAA Tournament game by a team hot from 3's, it is more then just hot from 3's.

We rarely lose to NCAA Tournament teams by Post play. Why? IMO, it is a coaching strategy. Make a team beat us from 3 is our rule of thumb. It works when we win, doesn't when we lose. A huge deal is our half time adjustments that seems Few and company arent elite at doing.

When they get good at doing adjustments we will see Few get to E8. I do agree teams get hot or teams are JUST better. WSU made F4, but whats that mean? They WERE a good team, but Zags were better and last yr should of been F4 at worst. HUGE letdown.

bballbeachbum
06-23-2013, 01:35 PM
Everyone is a arm chair coach or player. Sometimes teams are just hot and cant be stopped. However, IMO when you lose every NCAA Tournament game by a team hot from 3's, it is more then just hot from 3's.

We rarely lose to NCAA Tournament teams by Post play. Why? IMO, it is a coaching strategy. Make a team beat us from 3 is our rule of thumb. It works when we win, doesn't when we lose. A huge deal is our half time adjustments that seems Few and company arent elite at doing.

When they get good at doing adjustments we will see Few get to E8. I do agree teams get hot or teams are JUST better. WSU made F4, but whats that mean? They WERE a good team, but Zags were better and last yr should of been F4 at worst. HUGE letdown.

still closing your posts all po'd with HUGE letdown? everybody here already knows that I thought; is that still the choice closing line...HUGE letdown. Seriously, it's summer already man, that perspective will get you where? It was a huge letdown for all the followers of the team, I'm unclear on what you're trying to say unless it's still simply to vent.

as for armchair coach or player, you're right of course :) and just like on the court it all plays out. this board helps do that over a season and seasons really well seems to me, just like on the court.

on adjustments, it's win some, lose some for Few imo. More on the shooting: KP and KO took 2/3 of the team's shots at 14-39 for 36%...lots of good execution getting lots of those shots, especially the threes I talked about before; add in E's 2-8...the Zag shooting didn't respond. Maybe that's on Few some as the coach

bartruff1
06-23-2013, 02:21 PM
Everyone....everyone....well, I can't speak for everyone but it appears to me that everyone has a opinion but not everyone thinks their opinion is a fact...

IMHO only the experts do that.

maynard g krebs
06-23-2013, 02:49 PM
however I don't buy into the spin that teams get hot and there's nothing to be done. Disagree.

yes, teams get hot, and yes, there are ways to cool them off too.

It's been pointed out that on most of the 3's there was a defender closing out with a hand up. I don't have tape but my recall is that several were well behind the line.

It's not like there was one guy you could "run off the line"; it was multiple shooters.

So the question is, what could have been done differently?

bballbeachbum
06-23-2013, 03:24 PM
It's been pointed out that on most of the 3's there was a defender closing out with a hand up. I don't have tape but my recall is that several were well behind the line.

It's not like there was one guy you could "run off the line"; it was multiple shooters.

So the question is, what could have been done differently?

shoot better, that's my point. make open shots, which GU had and missed by their best players

and also, generally, that guys get hot or cold and teams get hot or cold but that's not all it is in explaining why, there are reasons. I didn't call out the Zags for that, but do not follow the direction of that explanation on good shooting vs. bad shooting

I know there was more than one guy to "run off the line," and also to stop from penetrating, and other things too...certainly answers in that as an explanation (which losing GBj didn't help) even tho running someone off the line is different than a hand in the face; lots of shooters can shoot with a hand in their face. And with the players GU had it didn't surprise a team went off from 3 no matter what D GU played with hands in faces too, and I felt GU would need to outgun teams in this situation before the tourney started and posted that; just didn't believe we had the D game to consistently shut perimeter scorers down. Believe others were wary of this as well, and especially once GBj went down, that made things harder for that team in that game

so I'm not calling GU out for that and expected something like this. I just believe there are more to the reasons on why teams get hot or not

so what could Zags have done differently? shoot better!



OK, so what about Green...did he just go cold or did the Heat adjust :) is the Zags better 3 point D with Bell an anomaly or because of his play out there defending? what do you think?

GoZags
06-23-2013, 04:57 PM
shoot better, that's my point. make open shots, which GU had and missed by their best players

and also, generally, that guys get hot or cold and teams get hot or cold but that's not all it is in explaining why, there are reasons. I didn't call out the Zags for that, but do not follow the direction of that explanation on good shooting vs. bad shooting

I know there was more than one guy to "run off the line," and also to stop from penetrating, and other things too...certainly answers in that as an explanation (which losing GBj didn't help) even tho running someone off the line is different than a hand in the face; lots of shooters can shoot with a hand in their face. And with the players GU had it didn't surprise a team went off from 3 no matter what D GU played with hands in faces too, and I felt GU would need to outgun teams in this situation before the tourney started and posted that; just didn't believe we had the D game to consistently shut perimeter scorers down. Believe others were wary of this as well, and especially once GBj went down, that made things harder for that team in that game

so I'm not calling GU out for that and expected something like this. I just believe there are more to the reasons on why teams get hot or not

so what could Zags have done differently? shoot better!



OK, so what about Green...did he just go cold or did the Heat adjust :) is the Zags better 3 point D with Bell an anomaly or because of his play out there defending? what do you think?

I think injuries are a part of the game ...... that they shouldn't ever be used as an "excuse" but could be used as an "explanation" or a "contributing reason". i.e. Bell was significantly slowed v Southern and significantly slowed for the first half of the Wichita State game. It got to the point where he just couldn't go for the 2nd half of the round of 32 game. Mark Few (who was keenly aware of Bell's injury) felt that part of Bell was better than the alternative. Again, not an excuse .... but an explanation ..... The Zags were blessed throughout the first 30 games or so of the season to be injury free .... it just caught up with them at an incredibly inopportune time.

As for team defense in the Wichita State game? WSU took the shots that the Zag's staff wanted them to take. There were very few easy buckets made by the Shockers. They made the shots and they won the game. It's pretty simple.

Zags11
06-23-2013, 06:01 PM
I closed it out with that cuz that's what it was. Fact. It is june and i replied before with lets move on. Fact. Then this thread exploded and so i made a opinion. :). We gave them the shot Few wanted. Fact. We lose to NCAA Tournament teams by 3's that get hot. Fact. We rarely lose to post play teams.

It is what it is. Alot is opinion and some are opinion with facts entwined with it. Some People think if you dont believe or agree with Few or Players, then your a hater and not being objective. Sadly, that is opinion of posters here sometimes.

Closing, We have had a awesome streak to make march, smart clean kids and a wonderful coaching staff. We don't "Shock" anyone in March either anymore. Fact. I enjoy every game, and every season. I love this board for the mature posters here but run into some adults who act like kids. Opinion. :)

Zags11
06-23-2013, 06:02 PM
I think injuries are a part of the game ...... that they shouldn't ever be used as an "excuse" but could be used as an "explanation" or a "contributing reason". i.e. Bell was significantly slowed v Southern and significantly slowed for the first half of the Wichita State game. It got to the point where he just couldn't go for the 2nd half of the round of 32 game. Mark Few (who was keenly aware of Bell's injury) felt that part of Bell was better than the alternative. Again, not an excuse .... but an explanation ..... The Zags were blessed throughout the first 30 games or so of the season to be injury free .... it just caught up with them at an incredibly inopportune time.

As for team defense in the Wichita State game? WSU took the shots that the Zag's staff wanted them to take. There were very few easy buckets made by the Shockers. They made the shots and they won the game. It's pretty simple.

Agree

kclubfounder
06-23-2013, 06:41 PM
The article sheds no new light on the nightmare for me. Everything "revealed" was known very soon after the game - and many of the points were known as the nightmare unfolded.

What this article fails to address is that Few can't win big games and Gonzaga doesn't know how to play defense when it really matters.

:rolleyes:

kclubfounder
06-23-2013, 06:45 PM
The Zags lost. No one can argue if so and so played the Zags would have won. WSU was better that day. WSu went to the Final Four, the Zags lost in the round of 32, again.

Brilliant comment.

I'd like to add to it that some teams didn't make it to the tournament. Again.

I'd like to also add that some other teams lost in the round of 64. Again.

I'd like to also add that some other teams lost in the round of 32. Again.

I'd like to also add that only 4 teams made it to the Final 4. Again.

I'd like to also add that only 1 team won it all. Again.

Not to brag or anything, but I think my commentary is much more brilliant. Again.

bballbeachbum
06-23-2013, 06:47 PM
I think injuries are a part of the game ...... that they shouldn't ever be used as an "excuse" but could be used as an "explanation" or a "contributing reason". i.e. Bell was significantly slowed v Southern and significantly slowed for the first half of the Wichita State game. It got to the point where he just couldn't go for the 2nd half of the round of 32 game. Mark Few (who was keenly aware of Bell's injury) felt that part of Bell was better than the alternative. Again, not an excuse .... but an explanation ..... The Zags were blessed throughout the first 30 games or so of the season to be injury free .... it just caught up with them at an incredibly inopportune time.

As for team defense in the Wichita State game? WSU took the shots that the Zag's staff wanted them to take. There were very few easy buckets made by the Shockers. They made the shots and they won the game. It's pretty simple.

agree.

not using the Zag 3 point D % throughout the season with Bell/without Bell as an excuse for WSU game, rather to demonstrate that it's more than simply luck that teams, any teams, get hot from 3 or not...the play of the defenders also can matter plenty in why guys go off or not, because of the matchups, the offensive response in the face of it, etc. GBj is a nice example of that on that Zag team throughout the season that showed this general idea to us imo, which is why I use that example to refute the belief that getting hot from 3 is just one of those things night to night (that happens too but as simple as just that?)

on the WSU game, they made the shots, no arguments man. Tip of the Cap to the Shockers.

It can happen even with good D...yes.

teams can still win if they shoot better than what the Zags shot...yes--my point re. the Zags and this game. Have to shoot it out sometimes to win, good O beats good D, all of that stuff, instead of the focus on the 3 pt. D blame. WSU shot crazy good with crazy shots and still, if GU made a couple of the many looks they had from their scorers they could have won.

bballbeachbum
06-23-2013, 06:50 PM
I love this board for the mature posters here but run into some adults who act like kids. Opinion. :)

agree

:cheers:

maynard g krebs
06-23-2013, 06:57 PM
so what could Zags have done differently? shoot better!



OK, so what about Green...did he just go cold or did the Heat adjust :) is the Zags better 3 point D with Bell an anomaly or because of his play out there defending? what do you think?

1) Ok, more specifically, you said there are things that can be done when teams get hot. I asked what more the Zags could have done in this instance to cool them off.

2) Who is "Green", and what is "the Heat"?
Of course Bell's defense lowers opp 3 pt %. I was the first to mention Bell in the thread, post 7, saying this probably doesn't happen with a healthy Bell. If the point is that better defenders defend the 3 pt shot better, I'd agree, and I agree that 3 pt defense is a weakness w/ Pangos and Stockton in the game. But a team that shoots 30% for the year or so doesn't even shoot it that well in shootarounds with nobody within 20 feet.

bballbeachbum
06-23-2013, 07:02 PM
1) Ok, more specifically, you said there are things that can be done when teams get hot. I asked what more the Zags could have done in this instance to cool them off.

2) Who is "Green", and what is "the Heat"?
Of course Bell's defense lowers opp 3 pt %. I was the first to mention Bell in the thread, post 7, saying this probably doesn't happen with a healthy Bell. If the point is that better defenders defend the 3 pt shot better, I'd agree, and I agree that 3 pt defense is a weakness w/ Pangos and Stockton in the game. But a team that shoots 30% for the year or so doesn't even shoot it that well in shootarounds with nobody within 20 feet.

shoot better is one of those things you can do! guys start lighting it up, responding by lighting it up too and raising your game on O is a good response. nothing new in that especially if you're struggling to stop them

funny about Green and the Heat :D

I do enjoy talking about this stuff, thinking about this stuff

MDABE80
06-23-2013, 07:03 PM
4 months till practice begins..........that's what I think.

ZagsZombieNation
06-23-2013, 07:05 PM
I stopped dwelling on this game a long time ago.

maynard g krebs
06-23-2013, 07:20 PM
shoot better is one of those things you can do! guys start lighting it up, responding by lighting it up too and raising your game on O is a good response. nothing new in that especially if you're struggling to stop them

funny about Green and the Heat :D

I do enjoy talking about this stuff, thinking about this stuff

OK, I admit I know who the Heat is, but I did not know they had a player named Green. I know they have Lebron James and Wade, but that's it. My last full NBA game was Sonics-Suns in 93 or 94. I will accidentally look at it a little when I'm on the recumbent bike at the gym.

So how did the Heat finish em off? Jump from the turnbuckle? Full Nelson? Sleeper hold? Or chair to the back of the head?

My brother assured me before the final that the Heat would win because James is now the bobblehead that is being marketed the most heavily, and they wanted to increase his status by giving him 2 titles in a row. Based on my last decade of watching the WWF, oops NBA, I am assuming he was probably correct.

MTZag03
06-23-2013, 07:22 PM
I'm dwelling on whether this time next year we will be talking about yet another tragic March collapse or instead how we will sustain the magic of the last season.

It seems like the focus has shifted since the early years.

Oregonzagnut
06-23-2013, 07:35 PM
ZagsZombieNation;]I stopped dwelling on this game a long time ago.

The loss to Wichita was the easiest loss for me to take since our E8. I believe it is because the season was so satisfying and the progress we made. As a program learning to stay consistent for an entire season was impressive and was something our program needed too. Consistent dominance.

Few is still learning and NEXT YEAR he will put it all together. Gotta believe that.

There is only about 5% of me that is saying we have a jinx to get rid of.


4 months till practice begins..........that's what I think.

AMEN! This is the fact. We have 4 months so is there a 2013-14 new schedule thread yet?

bartruff1
06-23-2013, 07:40 PM
I'm dwelling on whether this time next year we will be talking about yet another tragic March collapse or instead how we will sustain the magic of the last season.

It seems like the focus has shifted since the early years.

I think the forum a$$hole ratio has a seasonal element to it.

bballbeachbum
06-23-2013, 08:09 PM
OK, I admit I know who the Heat is, but I did not know they had a player named Green. I know they have Lebron James and Wade, but that's it. My last full NBA game was Sonics-Suns in 93 or 94. I will accidentally look at it a little when I'm on the recumbent bike at the gym.

So how did the Heat finish em off? Jump from the turnbuckle? Full Nelson? Sleeper hold? Or chair to the back of the head?

My brother assured me before the final that the Heat would win because James is now the bobblehead that is being marketed the most heavily, and they wanted to increase his status by giving him 2 titles in a row. Based on my last decade of watching the WWF, oops NBA, I am assuming he was probably correct.

Ha! lots of WWF to it, I think they finished them with the pile driver while Danny Green (the UNC kid) had an interesting Finals for the Spurs

ZagaZags
06-23-2013, 08:43 PM
Stinks. Not going to win many games shooting 36%

Robzagnut
06-24-2013, 10:58 AM
A choke by any other name is still a CHOKE!





My brother assured me before the final that the Heat would win because James is now the bobblehead that is being marketed the most heavily, and they wanted to increase his status by giving him 2 titles in a row. Based on my last decade of watching the WWF, oops NBA, I am assuming he was probably correct.

Just about the stupidist thing I've read in a while as you obviously didn't watch the series and have NO CLUE!

Yup, it was the NBA's fault that San Antonio's Ginobli and Leonard each missed free throws that would have iced the game. And it was a conspiracy that Duncan was taken out, so Bosh could get an offensive rebound and then San Antonio purposely let Ray Allen make a desperation 3 pointer. Give me a break.

San Antonio pulled a Gonzaga sized choke in game 6, pure and simple.

maynard g krebs
06-24-2013, 12:14 PM
Just about the stupidist thing I've read in a while as you obviously didn't watch the series and have NO CLUE!



Sorry to ruffle your feathers. Just goofin around. I don't bring up NBA; beachbum asked me a question relating something in NBA finals to GU giving up 3's v Wichita.

As I said above, last time I watched a full NBA game was Sonics-Suns a couple decades ago, when they gave Barkley 32 fts in game 7, and the Suns 60something as a team. It was clear the script was Jordan v Barkley the finals. Just one example, I could give about a dozen going back to when Stern took over and I saw it become bogus.

Maybe it's honest again now; I don't know and don't care. Just know my brother's prediction was correct. My assumption certainly could be wrong, but I don't really care.

As Forrest Gump's momma said, stupid is as stupid does.

If it matters- I still play, and I hate the NBA so much because it has ruined the way the game is played on a grass roots level. In my day everybody picked, screened, passed, and moved off-ball constantly. Today most of the young guys take turns going one on one and everybody stands around watching the guy with the ball. That came from the kids watching the post 80's NBA. I have heard they pass and there is more movement now, but don't know or care if this is the case.

It's not nearly as fun to play the game in the last 20 years, and I blame the NBA, and specifically the evil David Stern, for that. He's a good marketer, though.

In the late 90's, I heard an interview with the great Lionel Hollins of Walton's champion Blazers when he was an asst. w/ the Grizzlies. He said, paraphrasing, "we have to coach differently now, BECAUSE PLAYERS TODAY DON'T HAVE THE SKILLS WE HAD." So I'm not alone.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread.

Malastein
06-24-2013, 12:35 PM
Perhaps they didn't lose the game defensively, but they played a poor game offensively. Lot of stagnant sets. Quite disappointing on how much they let Wichita take them out of their sets. Plus nobody came up with cajones...

bartruff1
06-24-2013, 02:45 PM
My mom taught me that only cowards say things about people that they are not willing to say to their face...as usual...my mom was right.

ZagaZags
06-24-2013, 02:55 PM
My mom taught me that only cowards say things about people that they are not willing to say to their face...as usual...my mom was right.

FG 36% speaks for itself.

bartruff1
06-24-2013, 03:25 PM
FG 36% speaks for itself.

What does it say ? Is that a measure of character ?

Zags11
06-24-2013, 03:33 PM
My mom taught me that only cowards say things about people that they are not willing to say to their face...as usual...my mom was right.

Pretty sure most people would say what they think to your face, other's face and Few's face.

Maybe not as cruel, and maybe not as rude. Then there are some(including myself) that would say to your face, others, and fews.

Bartruff I know your die hard Few fanatic and "Anti-Agree" That Few is jesus on the coaching circuit. People have opinions, right or wrong.

Cowardly or not. LOL. Serious? LOL

bartruff1
06-24-2013, 03:41 PM
Mom was right on. I'm a big mom fan.

ZagaZags
06-24-2013, 03:59 PM
What does it say ? Is that a measure of character ?

The character of this team is much higher than 36%

I am pretty sure the 36% FG shooting has something to do with shooting poorly.

Zags11
06-24-2013, 04:02 PM
Aren't Moms usually? Some Mom's are also over protective, delusionial and paranoid. Then they pass those genetics down..........

Anywhoo I am ready for wsu to be banished from my memory bank and I would rather move forward and look to another exciting regular season and hopes for March.

I would wish that "Some" Mods wouldnt be biased and one sided. I have seen numerous name calling, personal insults to members on this board and no punishment. Then other posters get reemed, and stand up for themselves and then booom....banishment.

Wish we would talk hoops and not call people names. No one will meet each other and fight. smh

Oregonzagnut
06-24-2013, 04:27 PM
Just about the stupidist thing I've read in a while.

Was his own quote


San Antonio pulled a Gonzaga sized choke in game 6, pure and simple.


Gonzaga did not choke.

bartruff1
06-24-2013, 04:43 PM
[QUOTE=Zags11;919932]Aren't Moms usually? Some Mom's are also over protective, delusionial and paranoid. Then they pass those genetics down..........

Ain't that truth, their kids grow up to think they know more than a future hall of fame coach and that the mods are out to get them...

Zags11
06-24-2013, 05:05 PM
[QUOTE=Zags11;919932]Aren't Moms usually? Some Mom's are also over protective, delusionial and paranoid. Then they pass those genetics down..........

Ain't that truth, their kids grow up to think they know more than a future hall of fame coach and that the mods are out to get them...

Yea delusionial and idiotic genes slid down certain family tree's just fine.

Why? Cuz Not ONCE DID I say I was BETTER then FEW. NOT ONCE did I SAY I WOULD take Zags farther. I JUST know that when we lose its from 3's and not from being out played inside the arc in march.

Mods? Yea certain MODS who are friends or online buddies allow certain members to talk down, and call people names and not a word or suspension. I got suspended for stickin up for myself from couple posters who name called 1st and nada for them.

So, my mom taught me to "NOT" blame others for my mistakes, and make excuses. I also was taught that no man was perfect and exempt from any legit critiscm.

75Zag
06-24-2013, 05:22 PM
This whole choking thing is overstated.

Mama Cass Elliot of the Mamas and Papas did not choke on a ham sandwich as was widely reported. Her autopsy reports just plain old heart failure.

GU did not choke on Wichita St. They just got their a+s+s+e+s handed to them in a hat.

Time to move on, for both Mama Cass and GU.

Go Bulldogs!

bartruff1
06-24-2013, 05:32 PM
Is so fat, that when she goes to the beach, the people dump buckets of water on her and try to drag her into the ocean !!!

GeorgiaZagFan
06-24-2013, 08:21 PM
...if one of their starting guards is injured and misses the 2nd half ......I have NO doubt that with Bell the Shockers don't continue that run and the Zags win by 8-10 points ...but it is games like that one by WSU that puts the "mad" in March Madness!!!!

ZagaZags
06-24-2013, 11:23 PM
Nothing good for Gonzaga here.

ZagaZags
06-24-2013, 11:29 PM
Nothing good for Gonzaga here.

I give us a 36% chance we close it. ( Not good )

229SintoZag
06-25-2013, 12:48 AM
For the day when we don't have to rationalize early exits every year.

I hope that day is soon. But this is becoming part of every late
Spring/Summer/offseason. It's getting old.

But at least we have some T shirts commemorating our short lived #1 ranking!!

Here's to next year's posts telling us how lucky we were to beat some goliaths and emerge into the final four despite the fact we had no business doing so on paper. Cheers!

bartruff1
06-25-2013, 04:53 AM
It never gets old for me...I love it...can't imagine a better year than last year.

siliconzag
06-25-2013, 07:33 AM
There are so many reasons to let this go, not the least of which is to make sure it does not become part of our consciousness. If we continue to relive the UCLA, Nevada, Wyoming, Texas Tech, Davidson and Wichita State disappointments, we are labeling ourselves as also rans, destined to never rise above some of our bad fortune (like Blake's shot that rattled out against Arizona in SLC).

As I look at last year, we had the forces aligned for a good ranking. I never thought we were really the best team in the country. I did think and still do, that we were the best in the west. Unfortunately we ran into a team perfectly matched for us. A team capable of shooting hot (as they did against Creighton), and a team that plays tenacious defense and rebounds like Dennis Rodman on steroids. They play defense with their feet (not with their hands). They flustered our offense and in part this is why our shooting sucked. Ask any MVC opponents, Wichita makes you play ugly. But whatever your opinion, it is way past time to quit this silly back and forth about whether we choked or were hit by lightning. We lost to Butler, and we lost to Illinois. We had a close (hollow?) victory over Oklahoma State (who was throttled by Oregon in San Jose.) Some of our victories in retrospect weren't as big as we once thought. Just because we were the only team left standing after everybody else got knocked off, did not mean we were the best team in the country, our rating not withstanding.

I agree with GoZags fifteen in a row is a noteworthy accomplishment. Coach is who he is, and most fans adore him, despite his shy demeanor. Team played above their heads all season, and the quality wins, in retrospect were suspect. I think we were OVERRATED to use a well used phrase, but whatever one thinks about this, it is silly to regurgitate and wallow in the past. It is time to think of the future, and how we are going to make it 16. I think if we do make it 16 in a row, that will be a small miracle in itself, but Coach has shown himself to be more than capable. If there is any team that can do it, it will be the Zags. March, however, is to the Zags, what it was to Caesar and is likely to remain so. We need to root for the team we have.

Sili

Robzagnut
06-25-2013, 07:40 AM
Was his own quote




Gonzaga did not choke.


Sure they did. One of the biggest choke jobs I've ever witnessed, which is why I'm still disgusted 4 months later.

What was the score at halftime? They shoulda been up by 10-12 points, but choked at least 6 or 7 bunnies among other things... Harris insisted on slam dunking and getting blocked at the rim instead of shooting his nice little 3 foot bank shot, etc. Then they melted down (again) when it counted. You can sugar coat the loss any way you want, but the #1 team with a top 5 all american player would not lose that game unless there was some serious choking going on.

I couldn't wait for GU to shut the mouth of all the naysayers and FINALLY create some validation to their ranking and long time supporters, but once again they failed miserably. This one hurt more than the UCLA game.

cjm720
06-25-2013, 09:50 AM
Sure they did. One of the biggest choke jobs I've ever witnessed, which is why I'm still disgusted 4 months later.

What was the score at halftime? They shoulda been up by 10-12 points, but choked at least 6 or 7 bunnies among other things... Harris insisted on slam dunking and getting blocked at the rim instead of shooting his nice little 3 foot bank shot, etc. Then they melted down (again) when it counted. You can sugar coat the loss any way you want, but the #1 team with a top 5 all american player would not lose that game unless there was some serious choking going on.

I couldn't wait for GU to shut the mouth of all the naysayers and FINALLY create some validation to their ranking and long time supporters, but once again they failed miserably. This one hurt more than the UCLA game.

Sucks for you then

gobroncsgozags
06-25-2013, 10:10 AM
Sucks for you then


It actually sucks for us all. It could have been the perfect storm for GU but the team, coaches, etc. didn't get it done. The pieces were all there and I don't see the them coming together as well for GU in the near future. Talent, cohesiveness, confidence, an unbelievably "easy" road to the Final Four, etc.

That is why it was a huge disappointment for me personally. It wasn't just a loss or choke. It was a team they should have beaten faily easily with a then clear path to a huge goal. I just don't see it coming together again in a while. Now, that is not to mean a Final Four won't happen. Frankly, I always pictured the Zags breaking that barrier by fighting through a lot.

cjm720
06-25-2013, 10:30 AM
It actually sucks for us all. It could have been the perfect storm for GU but the team, coaches, etc. didn't get it done. The pieces were all there and I don't see the them coming together as well for GU in the near future. Talent, cohesiveness, confidence, an unbelievably "easy" road to the Final Four, etc.

That is why it was a huge disappointment for me personally. It wasn't just a loss or choke. It was a team they should have beaten faily easily with a then clear path to a huge goal. I just don't see it coming together again in a while. Now, that is not to mean a Final Four won't happen. Frankly, I always pictured the Zags breaking that barrier by fighting through a lot.

The problem with this thought process is you give zero credit to WSU.

I personally think we'll be pretty damn good next year and a really fun team to watch.

maynard g krebs
06-25-2013, 10:35 AM
Sure they did. One of the biggest choke jobs I've ever witnessed, which is why I'm still disgusted 4 months later.

What was the score at halftime? They shoulda been up by 10-12 points, but choked at least 6 or 7 bunnies among other things... Harris insisted on slam dunking and getting blocked at the rim instead of shooting his nice little 3 foot bank shot, etc. Then they melted down (again) when it counted. You can sugar coat the loss any way you want, but the #1 team with a top 5 all american player would not lose that game unless there was some serious choking going on.

I couldn't wait for GU to shut the mouth of all the naysayers and FINALLY create some validation to their ranking and long time supporters, but once again they failed miserably. This one hurt more than the UCLA game.

Your posts are highly intelligent and informative. Thank you so much.

Robzagnut
06-25-2013, 11:06 AM
The problem with this thought process is you give zero credit to WSU.

I personally think we'll be pretty damn good next year and a really fun team to watch.


How does it explain GU almost losing to Southern in the first round and playing flat for that whole game and the first half against WSU?

Oregonzagnut
06-25-2013, 11:13 AM
The pieces were all there and I don't see the them coming together as well for GU in the near future.

Seriously? IMO, our future to me is even brighter than last year. Few is learning, Pangos and Bell will be juniors and Karno and Dower will surprise us all.

In spite of some saying "This was our year and we'll never have a better chance." We have heard that before and they will eat crow.

Robzagnut
06-25-2013, 11:15 AM
Your posts are highly intelligent and informative. Thank you so much.


Thanks, and I share your pain concerning the Sonics against the Suns when the refs gave that game to Phoenix. I didn't watch the NBA for a few years and haven't watched a regular season game since the Sonics left Seattle.

But, LeBron James is a once is a lifetime talent that any basketball fan can do nothing but appreciate while watching his brilliance. His passing skills and the way he works every off season to get better is a marvel to watch. He's Michael Jordan, but 6' 9" with Magic Johnson passing skills. He lost in the finals, so he worked on his post game to get easier baskets. The next year the defense stayed back, so he couldn't drive to the basket, so he worked on his jumper. His jumper from the elbow sealed game 7 this year in the best series I've watched in years. He's always refining his game to make it harder for defenses to cover him. I respect his work ethic and his skill.

As a guy who grew up on Walton, Dr. J, Bird, Magic then Michael, it's fun to watch him on the court during playoff basketball and it's a pity you've given up on the chamce to watch an incredible talent.

GoZags
06-25-2013, 11:20 AM
How does it explain GU almost losing to Southern in the first round and playing flat for that whole game and the first half against WSU?

Huh?

Gonzaga won that Southern game. It was hard fought 6 point victory, just like 1 seed Kansas' narrow (7 point) win over 16 Western Kentucky.

Wichita State is good. They proved it. Gonzaga's team last year was good. They too proved it, but fell short in the Wichita State game.

I'm sorry that YOU, personally were hurt and are "still disgusted 4 months later".

Tough losses are a part of the game ..... but you have to give credit where credit is due. At least that's my opinion.

It's also my opinion that this run of Gonzaga's is far from over.

Robzagnut
06-25-2013, 11:22 AM
Seriously? IMO, our future to me is even brighter than last year. Few is learning, Pangos and Bell will be juniors and Karno and Dower will surprise us all.

In spite of some saying "This was our year and we'll never have a better chance." We have heard that before and they will eat crow.


I think he might be referring to a #1 seed and getting a #16, #9 and #13 path to the Final Four. Can't get an easier path than that, ever. Plus, I doubt GU will ever get a #1 seed ever again if they are ranked the #1 team in the country going in, due to what happened in 2012.

I sure hope you're correct, but "e'll get 'em next year"is starting to get old.

bartruff1
06-25-2013, 11:27 AM
Fools abound...it is all about projection. It does absolutely no good to offer a different view.

Trying to teach a pig to dance is a waste of time...he won't learn, and you will just pi$$ him off.

gobroncsgozags
06-25-2013, 12:00 PM
The problem with this thought process is you give zero credit to WSU.

I personally think we'll be pretty damn good next year and a really fun team to watch.


I am not taking any credit from Wichita, just that GU should have beat them. Games like this are called upsets for a reason. :)

I agree that we will be good and I too am really excited to watch them play. Doesn't take anything away from my point though.

gobroncsgozags
06-25-2013, 12:03 PM
I think he might be referring to a #1 seed and getting a #16, #9 and #13 path to the Final Four. Can't get an easier path than that, ever.

Robzagnut is right. I was talking about this plus the chemistry, confidence, fun, etc. this last year's team had. No doubt there will be talent. Just a lot of things coming together last year that made it special with the missed opportunity to make it even more special.

cjm720
06-25-2013, 12:10 PM
How does it explain GU almost losing to Southern in the first round and playing flat for that whole game and the first half against WSU?

We beat Southern and Bell got injured that game. I contend we would have beat WSU had Bell not been injured...dude had zero points and couldn't defend because of his ankle. That is a huge point in this debate.

Bing
06-25-2013, 12:19 PM
I think he might be referring to a #1 seed and getting a #16, #9 and #13 path to the Final Four. Can't get an easier path than that, ever. Plus, I doubt GU will ever get a #1 seed ever again if they are ranked the #1 team in the country going in, due to what happened in 2012.

I sure hope you're correct, but "e'll get 'em next year"is starting to get old.

You have forgotten about #2 seed Ohio State, which was also in our "path to the Final Four".

What makes you think that Gonzaga will never, ever get a #1 seed again? They've been a #2 before and previous years performances have nothing to do with the seeding process.

Oregonzagnut
06-25-2013, 01:29 PM
We beat Southern and Bell got injured that game. I contend we would have beat WSU had Bell not been injured...dude had zero points and couldn't defend because of his ankle. That is a huge point in this debate.

It is the single most important factor, IMO.

A distant 2nd is WSU's 9 possession scoring streak. But that wouldn't have happened with Bell at 100%.

3rd most important factor IMO was our staff not getting our guys to have fun and excited to be out there as much as Florida Gulf Coast was. Gonzaga did not have any fun in the first two rounds. The expectations and business of being #1 had seeped down onto the court and you could see it in their eyes against Southern and WSU.

maynard g krebs
06-25-2013, 01:50 PM
Thanks, and I share your pain concerning the Sonics against the Suns when the refs gave that game to Phoenix. I didn't watch the NBA for a few years and haven't watched a regular season game since the Sonics left Seattle.

But, LeBron James is a once is a lifetime talent that any basketball fan can do nothing but appreciate while watching his brilliance. His passing skills and the way he works every off season to get better is a marvel to watch. He's Michael Jordan, but 6' 9" with Magic Johnson passing skills. He lost in the finals, so he worked on his post game to get easier baskets. The next year the defense stayed back, so he couldn't drive to the basket, so he worked on his jumper. His jumper from the elbow sealed game 7 this year in the best series I've watched in years. He's always refining his game to make it harder for defenses to cover him. I respect his work ethic and his skill.

As a guy who grew up on Walton, Dr. J, Bird, Magic then Michael, it's fun to watch him on the court during playoff basketball and it's a pity you've given up on the chamce to watch an incredible talent.

Actually it was a sarcastic response to your post about my alleged stupidity (which I really didn't mind, and sort of expected to get when I made the post).

kclubfounder
06-25-2013, 04:13 PM
Huh?

Gonzaga won that Southern game. It was hard fought 6 point victory, just like 1 seed Kansas' narrow (7 point) win over 16 Western Kentucky.

Wichita State is good. They proved it. Gonzaga's team last year was good. They too proved it, but fell short in the Wichita State game.

I'm sorry that YOU, personally were hurt and are "still disgusted 4 months later".

Tough losses are a part of the game ..... but you have to give credit where credit is due. At least that's my opinion.

It's also my opinion that this run of Gonzaga's is far from over.

Thanks Go Zags.

I was on the verge of responding to this post that hit a nerve - and I wouldn't have been as civilized. The growing crowd of Zag fans who seem to think anything other than covering the spread by double digits is evidence of a weak performance is causing me serious angst. Is Gonzaga basketball the one and only team they follow - or have ever followed - in the world of sports? Do they have zero field of reference? I don't get it. It is very aggravating.

Oregonzagnut
06-25-2013, 04:45 PM
It's also my opinion that this run of Gonzaga's is far from over.

Not over by a long shot. Each position and bench spot is getting stronger every year we stay a top 25 team.

Zags11
06-26-2013, 01:15 PM
Not over by a long shot. Each position and bench spot is getting stronger every year we stay a top 25 team.

I agree. I ont see us falling off. The issue is, its either A) We suck an are garbage and will forever be stuck in rd of 32. It has validation in the Few ERA...so far. Or B) We should be happy, and anyone who complains about us falling shrt should coach, is a ######, idiot, anti-Zag,etc.

I wish we moved on.

However there will always be arguments and pro this or pro that.

Its when people get personal with each other as they have no further factual evidence to support there theory.

Robzagnut
06-26-2013, 02:40 PM
Huh?

Gonzaga won that Southern game. It was hard fought 6 point victory, just like 1 seed Kansas' narrow (7 point) win over 16 Western Kentucky.

Wichita State is good. They proved it. Gonzaga's team last year was good. They too proved it, but fell short in the Wichita State game.

I'm sorry that YOU, personally were hurt and are "still disgusted 4 months later".

Tough losses are a part of the game ..... but you have to give credit where credit is due. At least that's my opinion.

It's also my opinion that this run of Gonzaga's is far from over.


Kansas won its next game making your point moot.

It hurt GU in so many ways. I contend that if GU gets to the Elite 8 or better that Josh Davis or Mike Moser would be a Zag right now. That if there's any debate about them getting a #1 seed, pundits and the committee will point to the WSU game and give them a #2 seed or worse. That many elite recruits will pass on GU and go to a major instead due to 'the inferior WCC not making them tournament ready.' That loss will have long term ramifications. GU could have gone to the next level, but they will tread water instead.

It sucks and it hurts.

cjm720
06-26-2013, 03:09 PM
Kansas won its next game making your point moot.

It hurt GU in so many ways. I contend that if GU gets to the Elite 8 or better that Josh Davis or Mike Moser would be a Zag right now. That if there's any debate about them getting a #1 seed, pundits and the committee will point to the WSU game and give them a #2 seed or worse. That many elite recruits will pass on GU and go to a major instead due to 'the inferior WCC not making them tournament ready.' That loss will have long term ramifications. GU could have gone to the next level, but they will tread water instead.

It sucks and it hurts.

You live in your own little bubble. Get out and get some context and you'll realize that a #1 ranking and a #1 seed are very signficant. Losing sucks but it happens, like you, I contend the WCC doesn't prep us enough but that's the situaiton we're in...#trendingup.

maynard g krebs
06-26-2013, 04:02 PM
Kansas won its next game making your point moot.

It hurt GU in so many ways. I contend that if GU gets to the Elite 8 or better that Josh Davis or Mike Moser would be a Zag right now. That if there's any debate about them getting a #1 seed, pundits and the committee will point to the WSU game and give them a #2 seed or worse. That many elite recruits will pass on GU and go to a major instead due to 'the inferior WCC not making them tournament ready.' That loss will have long term ramifications. GU could have gone to the next level, but they will tread water instead.

It sucks and it hurts.

The committee bases its seedings on the current year. Duke's loss to Lehigh does not prevent it from getting a 1 seed; Kansas' loss to Northern Iowa does not prevent it from a future 1 seed. Both are far worse tourney losses than Wichita. It's one game; a good team got hot.

My opinion is that Moser is going home to a program that fits his style, and Davis is a southern guy who is going where it's warm. Both are going to programs that rely much more heavily on transfers than GU does.

Players understand that one game does not define a program. They realize that the short 3 pt shot in college creates more upsets; even a bad shooting team can get hot and upset a better team that dominates it on the boards. They are aware that the big picture is 32-3, and not one game in a crapshoot tourney.

bartruff1
06-26-2013, 04:09 PM
The committee bases its seedings on the current year. Duke's loss to Lehigh does not prevent it from getting a 1 seed; Kansas' loss to Northern Iowa does not prevent it from a future 1 seed. Both are far worse tourney losses than Wichita. It's one game; a good team got hot.

My opinion is that Moser is going home to a program that fits his style, and Davis is a southern guy who is going where it's warm. Both are going to programs that rely much more heavily on transfers than GU does.

Players understand that one game does not define a program. They realize that the short 3 pt shot in college creates more upsets; even a bad shooting team can get hot and upset a better team that dominates it on the boards. They are aware that the big picture is 32-3, and not one game in a crapshoot tourney.

Couldn't agree more.

Robzagnut
06-26-2013, 10:36 PM
Players understand that one game does not define a program. They realize that the short 3 pt shot in college creates more upsets; even a bad shooting team can get hot and upset a better team that dominates it on the boards. They are aware that the big picture is 32-3, and not one game in a crapshoot tourney.

Sorry, but it's not one game even if you try to spin it that way. Using your example I could say Michigan and GU had similar results since they both lost their last games, that one game. But, Michigan lost in the championship game and GU lost in the second round. It's the end result of a 68 team tournament, THE tournament, not one game where players base their opinions.

SwainZag
06-27-2013, 09:29 AM
The perfect storm. Worse than UCLA, in my opinion.

I disagree. Very much disagree. I've watched the WSU game a couple of times since then and they just beat us. As for the UCLA game I have not, and will not watch it. I can't. Zags beat themselves and handed them that game. Top 3 worst sporting moments on my lifetime tracker.

maynard g krebs
06-27-2013, 10:12 AM
Sorry, but it's not one game even if you try to spin it that way. Using your example I could say Michigan and GU had similar results since they both lost their last games, that one game. But, Michigan lost in the championship game and GU lost in the second round. It's the end result of a 68 team tournament, THE tournament, not one game where players base their opinions.

It actually is one game. Out of 35. An important one, sure. But using a pejorative like "spin" to discredit a point of view that is different from yours is kind of silly imo. As is the Michigan analogy, since Michigan won a bunch of big games in the tourney and the Zags didn't.

Not saying players don't look at tourney results. Of course they do. But it is one factor of many, not THE factor.

gonwick
06-27-2013, 10:36 AM
All we have are theories at this point, but gu exists in an unusual space. The WCC gets little respect, often correctly, so gaudy win loss stats don't hold much water with national pundits. I think it is reasonable to suggest that, if gu is in position next year to be moved up or down a slot, the committee will move them down. Last year was an important milestone for gu in earning the number one slot and seed. By flopping on the national stage, regardless of what wsu went on to do, they lost credibility. Not all of it, certainly, but a fair amount. I dread next year's bracketology where we will hear ad nauseum about gu squeaking by southern and falling to wsu. How this impacts recruits is anybody's guess. Recruits could say, gu is always in the tourney and I want that. They could also say, gu had its best year ever and still couldn't get past the round of 32 and i want no part of that.

SteelCityZag
06-27-2013, 01:03 PM
Sorry, but it's not one game even if you try to spin it that way. Using your example I could say Michigan and GU had similar results since they both lost their last games, that one game. But, Michigan lost in the championship game and GU lost in the second round. It's the end result of a 68 team tournament, THE tournament, not one game where players base their opinions.

Hmmm. Let's extrapolate this a bit further, shall we? What do you think of when you think Georgetown? Do you think of this (http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-03-22/sports/37938768_1_georgetown-in-ncaa-tournament-hoyas-georgetown-comeback)?

Do people think about Gonzaga having made the Sweet 16 more recently than the Hoyas? Is Georgetown's brand tarnished because they have been the Big East regular season champs twice during the past six years and still haven't made it out of the first weekend of the NCAA's?

I don't think they do. Now, admittedly, we're not Georgetown. But my point stands. Recruits, pundits, and coaches, are likely not as focused on our failures or our successes as much as we on this board are. The GU brand could use some spanking. A FF would help, but still isn't going to be a panacea for getting every recruit we desire.

Hell, we got Karno when Duke was interested. What does that tell you? No one gets every recruit, not even those in better recruiting positions than we are.

You do the best you can and you carve out a recruiting niche. You play as well as you can and you expand the brand.

bartruff1
06-27-2013, 01:20 PM
It doesn't matter where you are seeded or even why... winning solves everything as Nike says about Tiger...

It may even be a advantage to be under seeded...

maynard g krebs
06-27-2013, 01:38 PM
If players made their school choices based that heavily on tournament success, Butler would be lining up 5 star recruits after their back to back champ game appearances. But I'd bet moving to the A10, then Big East, will do more for their recruiting than those title games, which didn't appear to change it that much.

VCU, G Mason.....

Fans are obsessed with March. The players are involved in a process that starts in October, and lasts 5-6 months. March is important but just the tip of the iceberg to a player. Top players are majoring in bb, in effect, and looking for the best program to advance their career aspirations, just as someone going to grad school would.

ZagaZags
06-27-2013, 11:54 PM
If players made their school choices based that heavily on tournament success, Butler would be lining up 5 star recruits after their back to back champ game appearances. But I'd bet moving to the A10, then Big East, will do more for their recruiting than those title games, which didn't appear to change it that much.

VCU, G Mason.....

Fans are obsessed with March. The players are involved in a process that starts in October, and lasts 5-6 months. March is important but just the tip of the iceberg to a player. Top players are majoring in bb, in effect, and looking for the best program to advance their career aspirations, just as someone going to grad school would.

I am obsessed with August 25th

Robzagnut
06-28-2013, 07:07 AM
Hmmm. Let's extrapolate this a bit further, shall we? What do you think of when you think Georgetown? Do you think of this (http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-03-22/sports/37938768_1_georgetown-in-ncaa-tournament-hoyas-georgetown-comeback)?

Do people think about Gonzaga having made the Sweet 16 more recently than the Hoyas? Is Georgetown's brand tarnished because they have been the Big East regular season champs twice during the past six years and still haven't made it out of the first weekend of the NCAA's?

I don't think they do. Now, admittedly, we're not Georgetown. But my point stands. Recruits, pundits, and coaches, are likely not as focused on our failures or our successes as much as we on this board are. The GU brand could use some spanking. A FF would help, but still isn't going to be a panacea for getting every recruit we desire.

Hell, we got Karno when Duke was interested. What does that tell you? No one gets every recruit, not even those in better recruiting positions than we are.

You do the best you can and you carve out a recruiting niche. You play as well as you can and you expand the brand.


Apples and oranges.

Georgetown has won the national title and has been to the Final Four numerous times. They play in the Big East, one of the top bball conferences in the NCAA. Their resume, history and status is so much greater than Gonzaga's. Gonzaga had a chance to close the gap a little bit by going far in the tournament, but didn't get it done. That is going to hurt them in the future, because they don't have Georgetown's resume to lean on.

What the recruitment of Karno tells me is that Tommy Lloyd did a tremendous job and got on Karno early and often. By the time Duke and Kansas came sniffing around it was too late. That is all.

GoZags
06-28-2013, 08:23 AM
Apples and oranges.

Georgetown has won the national title and has been to the Final Four numerous times. They play in the Big East, one of the top bball conferences in the NCAA. Their resume, history and status is so much greater than Gonzaga's. Gonzaga had a chance to close the gap a little bit by going far in the tournament, but didn't get it done. That is going to hurt them in the future, because they don't have Georgetown's resume to lean on.

What the recruitment of Karno tells me is that Tommy Lloyd did a tremendous job and got on Karno early and often. By the time Duke and Kansas came sniffing around it was too late. That is all.

Why in the world would Kyle Wiltjer be interested in Gonzaga's program? Like you've said, Robzagnut ..... the Zags had their chance AND THEY BLEW IT !!! You're still disgusted 4 months later, and you're clearly happy to post and rationalize your dissatisfaction/disappointment over and over and over and over again.

Doesn't Perkins (or Travis for that matter) know that Robzagnut has proclaimed it that Gonzaga will never, ever get a 1 seed again? After all, the Zags DID get the 4th one seed last season and failed to advance to the round of 16. They just didn't get it done. Despite the framework for NCAA seeding clearly stating otherwise .... RZN says it's a FACT that Gonzaga won't be a 1 seed again.

Gonzaga isn't Kansas. Gonzaga clearly isn't Georgetown. Robzagnut has pointed both of these FACTS out in this thread.

Forget the FACT that Gonzaga, with a grand total of zero Scout.com/ESPN.com Top 25 recruiting classes has been to the dance the last 15 consecutive years .... a streak that's been exceeded only 6 times (including North Carolina under Dean Smith, Indiana under Bobby Knight and Kentucky under Rick Pitino/Tubby Smith) in the long, rich history of NCAA D1 hoops.

Forget the FACT that only Kansas and Gonzaga (out of 346 schools that play D1 hoops) have been to the dance and advanced to the Round of 32 (or beyond) each year over the course of last half decade.

Forget the FACT that right here, right now there's an unprecedented high level of interest in the Gonzaga Men's Basketball program from HIGHLY regarded PSA's.

Forget the FACT that this message board is unaware of the fruits of Tommy Lloyd's overseas endeavors, or the FACT that Tommy Lloyd is the BEST in the nation at bringing in overseas PSA's.

It's ovah ...... proclaims Robzagnut.

I disagree.

Strongly.

SteelCityZag
06-28-2013, 08:45 AM
Apples and oranges.

Georgetown has won the national title and has been to the Final Four numerous times. They play in the Big East, one of the top bball conferences in the NCAA. Their resume, history and status is so much greater than Gonzaga's. Gonzaga had a chance to close the gap a little bit by going far in the tournament, but didn't get it done. That is going to hurt them in the future, because they don't have Georgetown's resume to lean on.

What the recruitment of Karno tells me is that Tommy Lloyd did a tremendous job and got on Karno early and often. By the time Duke and Kansas came sniffing around it was too late. That is all.

Sometimes it's apples and oranges and sometimes it's how you slice them.

You seem to want to hang the single game tournament loss devastation solely on the Zags and not on other programs (even more prestigious ones) who've been experiencing worse than us.

I'm granting you that it's a factor, I just disagree with how much weight you're giving it in the minds of recruits. Recruits are 17-18 year-old young men (older if transfers) who have a lot on their minds and loads of people influencing them. There is no single game, win or loss, that will permanently alter that. Georgetown has a branded identity as do the Zags...each unique. They've proven things we have not. And we've proven some they have not. Agree that their program benefits from many factors (conference affiliation, tournament success, resume, history, status,) all things that you point to.

But you see, you've made my point for me. One loss fades when you look at the entire resume. Looking at GU's entire resume, no one loss or win is going going to permanently alter the brand of Zag Basketball.

Kentucky missed the tournament altogether last year and lost in the first round of the NIT to Robert Morris. Today, they're still Kentucky. Butler went to back-to-back National Championship games and was one possession away from beating Duke. Today, they're still Butler, fighting the same recruiting battles they fought before. Joining the BIG EAST will likely do more for their recruiting than any one single win or loss in the NCAA's.

And Gonzaga, achieving in 2013 the heights of being ranked #1 in the Nation, and the lows of losing in the round of 32 in the NCAA tournament, remains the same Gonzaga they have always been...building, reaching, scratching and striving to counted among college basketball's best. Not elite. We're not there yet, but we don't fall off the mountain we've climbed based on any single game. It's a much longer view than that.

GoZags
06-28-2013, 08:52 AM
And Gonzaga, achieving in 2013 the heights of being ranked #1 in the Nation, and the lows of losing in the round of 32 in the NCAA tournament, remains the same Gonzaga they have always been...building, reaching, scratching and striving to counted among college basketball's best. Not elite. We're not there yet, but we don't fall off the mountain we've climbed based on any single game. It's a much longer view than that.

Eloquently stated. Nicely done.

LongIslandZagFan
06-28-2013, 09:11 AM
Uconn hired Calhoun in 1986. They never did better than elite 8 until 1999. It takes time.

GoZags
06-28-2013, 09:22 AM
Uconn hired Calhoun in 1986. They never did better than elite 8 until 1999. It takes time.

And even in UConn's magic year of '99 they were 33 seconds and a possession away from not making the Final Four.

DreamBig
06-29-2013, 02:08 AM
First time poster here. I remember being a young high school athlete being heavily recruited by major schools in baseball. I chose my college based on hoping to make a difference and get my college "over the hump" and do more than just make it to the ncaa's (which we did). Let's not forget that kids may choose a school in that same manor. Why not come to an unbelievable school/community, be a big fish in a medium sized pond and help them to finally achieve something that would satisfy this board, and more importantly, this program??? I know that it is a different era than when I was young but it is a possible reason to choose Gonzaga over other BCS schools.

bartruff1
06-29-2013, 03:30 AM
If Gonzaga were to approach the UCLA records of John Wooden, there would still be the entitled experts on this board. The coaches that have never coached. Some see complaining as the moral choice and gratitude as a weakness.

Nothing will satisfy some on the board.....IMHO as always.

Zagcity
06-29-2013, 05:34 AM
Why in the world would Kyle Wiltjer be interested in Gonzaga's program? Like you've said, Robzagnut ..... the Zags had their chance AND THEY BLEW IT !!! You're still disgusted 4 months later, and you're clearly happy to post and rationalize your dissatisfaction/disappointment over and over and over and over again.

Doesn't Perkins (or Travis for that matter) know that Robzagnut has proclaimed it that Gonzaga will never, ever get a 1 seed again? After all, the Zags DID get the 4th one seed last season and failed to advance to the round of 16. They just didn't get it done. Despite the framework for NCAA seeding clearly stating otherwise .... RZN says it's a FACT that Gonzaga won't be a 1 seed again.

Gonzaga isn't Kansas. Gonzaga clearly isn't Georgetown. Robzagnut has pointed both of these FACTS out in this thread.

Forget the FACT that Gonzaga, with a grand total of zero Scout.com/ESPN.com Top 25 recruiting classes has been to the dance the last 15 consecutive years .... a streak that's been exceeded only 6 times (including North Carolina under Dean Smith, Indiana under Bobby Knight and Kentucky under Rick Pitino/Tubby Smith) in the long, rich history of NCAA D1 hoops.

Forget the FACT that only Kansas and Gonzaga (out of 346 schools that play D1 hoops) have been to the dance and advanced to the Round of 32 (or beyond) each year over the course of last half decade.

Forget the FACT that right here, right now there's an unprecedented high level of interest in the Gonzaga Men's Basketball program from HIGHLY regarded PSA's.

Forget the FACT that this message board is unaware of the fruits of Tommy Lloyd's overseas endeavors, or the FACT that Tommy Lloyd is the BEST in the nation at bringing in overseas PSA's.

It's ovah ...... proclaims Robzagnut.

I disagree.

Strongly.

Well said and that is a "Scientific Fact" ;)

Robzagnut
06-29-2013, 10:06 PM
Why in the world would Kyle Wiltjer be interested in Gonzaga's program? Like you've said, Robzagnut ..... the Zags had their chance AND THEY BLEW IT !!! You're still disgusted 4 months later, and you're clearly happy to post and rationalize your dissatisfaction/disappointment over and over and over and over again.

Doesn't Perkins (or Travis for that matter) know that Robzagnut has proclaimed it that Gonzaga will never, ever get a 1 seed again? After all, the Zags DID get the 4th one seed last season and failed to advance to the round of 16. They just didn't get it done. Despite the framework for NCAA seeding clearly stating otherwise .... RZN says it's a FACT that Gonzaga won't be a 1 seed again.

Gonzaga isn't Kansas. Gonzaga clearly isn't Georgetown. Robzagnut has pointed both of these FACTS out in this thread.

Forget the FACT that Gonzaga, with a grand total of zero Scout.com/ESPN.com Top 25 recruiting classes has been to the dance the last 15 consecutive years .... a streak that's been exceeded only 6 times (including North Carolina under Dean Smith, Indiana under Bobby Knight and Kentucky under Rick Pitino/Tubby Smith) in the long, rich history of NCAA D1 hoops.

Forget the FACT that only Kansas and Gonzaga (out of 346 schools that play D1 hoops) have been to the dance and advanced to the Round of 32 (or beyond) each year over the course of last half decade.

Forget the FACT that right here, right now there's an unprecedented high level of interest in the Gonzaga Men's Basketball program from HIGHLY regarded PSA's.

Forget the FACT that this message board is unaware of the fruits of Tommy Lloyd's overseas endeavors, or the FACT that Tommy Lloyd is the BEST in the nation at bringing in overseas PSA's.

It's ovah ...... proclaims Robzagnut.

I disagree.

Strongly.

I'm still disgusted over the UCLA loss. May I have your permission to continue to post? What is the title of this topic? GU choking. So, isn't this the place where I post my opinion about whether I believe it to be true or not? I refuse to be shouted down by you just because you don't share the same view. FACT Just because you're a moderator doesn't give you free reign to attack me. FACT I'm now disgusted by your tone and behavior. Can moderators receive warnings and be banned? FACT Will I be admonished again for being more disgusted by a moderator than the GU choke? Since you can't be civil, I won't be either.

All your rationalizations comparing GU to other schools don't make you right. Again, Kansas has won a title recently. All these other programs you keep bringing up have been to a Final Four, which does nothing to help your argument. FACT How many has GU been to? GU can't get out of the round of 32 in how many years straight? 2012 was their chance and all the stars were aligned. They choked. What is this topic about?

GU was the #1 team in the country. How many teams ranked #1 since the beginning of the tourney haven't got past the round of 32?

All your rationalizations are pathetic. We lost, but, but, but, we have Tommy Lloyd. And we haven't lost a football game since 1942. And we have the same obscure record that means nothing as Kansas. And we did better than Georgetown. And North Carolina didn't do that and Duke didn't either... What? They are meaningless when the #1 team in the country can't get to the Sweet 16.

I disagree with your rationalizations.

Strongly.

GoZags
06-30-2013, 05:09 AM
I'm still disgusted over the UCLA loss. May I have your permission to continue to post? What is the title of this topic? GU choking. So, isn't this the place where I post my opinion about whether I believe it to be true or not? I refuse to be shouted down by you just because you don't share the same view. FACT Just because you're a moderator doesn't give you free reign to attack me. FACT I'm now disgusted by your tone and behavior. Can moderators receive warnings and be banned? FACT Will I be admonished again for being more disgusted by a moderator than the GU choke? Since you can't be civil, I won't be either.

All your rationalizations comparing GU to other schools don't make you right. Again, Kansas has won a title recently. All these other programs you keep bringing up have been to a Final Four, which does nothing to help your argument. FACT How many has GU been to? GU can't get out of the round of 32 in how many years straight? 2012 was their chance and all the stars were aligned. They choked. What is this topic about?

GU was the #1 team in the country. How many teams ranked #1 since the beginning of the tourney haven't got past the round of 32?

All your rationalizations are pathetic. We lost, but, but, but, we have Tommy Lloyd. And we haven't lost a football game since 1942. And we have the same obscure record that means nothing as Kansas. And we did better than Georgetown. And North Carolina didn't do that and Duke didn't either... What? They are meaningless when the #1 team in the country can't get to the Sweet 16.

I disagree with your rationalizations.

Strongly.

How about this?

We agree to disagree.

Oregonzagnut
06-30-2013, 05:31 AM
I'm still disgusted over the UCLA loss. May I have your permission to continue to post? What is the title of this topic? GU choking.

Actually the title is "GU didn't choke" and if you are still disgusted over the UCLA game then have fun in robzagnut-ville. The UCLA game proved our staff allowed the team to think a game was won before the clock ran out. Few has since changed the programs habits about playing all 40 minutes. Especially this last season. Plus Few promoted some "nastiness" this year which sealed some close games, @ WSU Pullman, @ OK St.

The only thing to be disgusted about the UCLA game is if we make the same mistakes again.

For me the thing I am learning about Few is that he never takes off more than he can chew. That means he doesn't fall too far but he also doesn't make huge short lived improvements. Few is slow and methodical and sometimes to a fault because it costs us occasionally in crunch time. Few doesn't swing for the fences so he doesn't get many strikeouts or home runs. he just consistently rounds the bases and racks up well earned scores and wins.

Bing
06-30-2013, 06:14 AM
Originally Posted by Robzagnut: 2012 was their chance

In 2012 the Zags lost narrowly to Ohio State in the round of '32. I thought 2013 was set up better.


Originally Posted by Robzagnut:
I think he might be referring to a #1 seed and getting a #16, #9 and #13 path to the Final Four

As I pointed out earlier you didn't even mention 2 seed Ohio State being in the way of Gonzaga's "easy" path to the Final Four. I think that would have been a tough but winnable game had the Zags made it that far. But Wichita State took care of 1 seed Gonzaga and later took care of 2 seed Ohio State and then nearly took care of number 1 overall Louisville.

I don't think it's unreasonable to give the Shockers some credit.

Zagcity
06-30-2013, 06:38 AM
What is the title of this topic? GU choking. So, isn't this the place where I post my opinion about whether I believe it to be true or not?

Actually, the topic title of this thread is "Zags didn't choke vs. Wichita St?". Now that being said the Zags did choke against UCLA, but in my opinion the the stars aligned perfectly for Wichita St. Gonzaga dang near matched that perfection blow for blow. Not counting the Stockton miscue. ;)

maynard g krebs
06-30-2013, 09:49 AM
Oh I used to be disgusted
And now I try to be amused

Elvis (the more recent and less famous one) weighs in with some useful advice.

One team got insanely hot. That's what happened. This is like a Seinfeld episode: a thread about nothing.

Please don't make me quote Rodney King. Cause I will. I mean it.:)

kclubfounder
06-30-2013, 05:50 PM
I'm still disgusted over the UCLA loss. May I have your permission to continue to post?

For the record, you definitely have MY permission to continue to post. And I would like permission to continue to refer to you as a fan who has no frame of reference. I'd like permission to continue to refer to you as someone who is essentially ignorant when it comes to sports. I believe you have one team you follow (Gonzaga basketball), and that is a good thing! But it makes you ignorant when it comes to understanding the ebbs and flows of sports.

Hey, you are a Zag fan, so I believe we are brothers. However, because you seem to be ignorant about sports in general I'm going to have to occasionally hit you with an opposing post.

But when it is all said and done I only have one serious thing to say to you:

GO ZAGS!!!!!!!!

23dpg
06-30-2013, 07:27 PM
I can't believe this thread is still going.

CAN WE JUST LET IT DIE? Please. ( I know I"m extending it but it's still at the top of the page.)

I'm asking as a favor to a lot of the Zag fans on this board. That loss still stings and I don't need to be reminded of it on a daily basis.

Now, I'm off to bump a few other threads below this one.:horse:

ZagaZags
06-30-2013, 08:08 PM
This thread gets closed.