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azzagfan
06-01-2013, 11:55 AM
Reported today on Rivals. Visiting LA schools this weekend while at Pangos All-American Camp.
http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1511219

jazzdelmar
06-01-2013, 12:50 PM
Reported today on Rivals. Visiting LA schools this weekend while at Pangos All-American Camp.
http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=1511219

Described as a stunning passer who often misfires as well as a flashy dribbler I cannot see this player being coached by Few. Just can't. It's a moot point as most here agree, however. He thinks he's Kyrie Irving 2.0 and more than a Few coaches will play up to him as such; pun intended. Why waste the airfare? He's not even a Hail Mary recruit, IMO.

BTB
06-01-2013, 01:25 PM
Described as a stunning passer who often misfires as well as a flashy dribbler I cannot see this player being coached by Few. Just can't. It's a moot point as most here agree, however. He thinks he's Kyrie Irving 2.0 and more than a Few coaches will play up to him as such; pun intended. Why waste the airfare? He's not even a Hail Mary recruit, IMO.

Cuz Pargo wasn't a flashy passer or dribbler or anything.

DixieZag
06-01-2013, 02:14 PM
Cuz Pargo wasn't a flashy passer or dribbler or anything.

I don't know anything about Perkins game. I do know that if he chooses to make us one of his 5 visits then it is not a shot in the dark and we should make the effort.

As for Pargo, sure Pargo had some panache, but he also worked his tail off and played with a ton of pride and heart. As far as I am concerned, a little "Pargo" attitude would have helped last year's team immensely.

jazzdelmar
06-01-2013, 02:21 PM
Cuz Pargo wasn't a flashy passer or dribbler or anything.

Exactly. And Josh carves his name in his scalp as well. Pass. Pargo had his moments at GU but I wouldn't rate him in the top tier of points at the school. I take Pangos any day.

Reborn
06-01-2013, 03:01 PM
Cuz Pargo wasn't a flashy passer or dribbler or anything. But he sure was tough to stop when he had he ball and going one on one. His dribble dribe reverse spin move was so beautiful to watch, and he was nearly unstoppable one on one when he was driving to the hoop. He didn't have the outside shot that Pangos has, but he was definitely a better penetrator and a better one on one scorer, at this point in Pangos' career. Kevin does have two more years. Also Pargos took Gonzaga to the sweet 16 in his senior year and that team finished #10 in the nation I believe. Pangos has not done that yet.

cggonzaga
06-01-2013, 03:22 PM
Jazz, I actually like you but man can you be an idiot sometimes.

ZagNative
06-01-2013, 03:28 PM
Jazz, I actually like you but man can you be an idiot sometimes.:lmao::lmao:

Man, you've got that right!

BTB
06-01-2013, 03:29 PM
Exactly. And Josh carves his name in his scalp as well. Pass. Pargo had his moments at GU but I wouldn't rate him in the top tier of points at the school. I take Pangos any day.

You are crazy!

Also that article didn't say that Perkins has "misfires". It said his passing is too advanced for his teammates and they don't see the passes coming sometimes. I have no clue how somebody could NOT want Perkins to come to GU (unless said person is a SMC fan)

jazzdelmar
06-01-2013, 03:35 PM
Why is it "crazy" to prefer KP over JP? And IMO Zags have zero shot at Perkins.

BTB
06-01-2013, 03:38 PM
Why is it "crazy" to prefer KP over JP? And IMO Zags have zero shot at Perkins.

You can prefer who you want, it's crazy that you don't think Pargo was a top tier Zag point guard! Also, I'm biased because he is by far my favorite Zag ever.

jazzdelmar
06-01-2013, 03:48 PM
You can prefer who you want, it's crazy that you don't think Pargo was a top tier Zag point guard! Also, I'm biased because he is by far my favorite Zag ever.

Top tier: obviously JS, Matt, DD, Blake, future KP.

Second tier: Derek, JP, et al..

Third tier: Meech, et al.

JP may be your fave all time but to put him in top tier is, well, crazy.

ZagNative
06-01-2013, 03:54 PM
I must be crazy to rise to Jazz's bat-#### nuts bait, but some of Pargo's stats from the record book:
Highlights: Finished with 1,245 points. Became fourth player in GU history to record 500 assists, finishing with 589 to move past John Stockton (554) and into third behind Matt Santangelo (668) and Blake Stepp (640) on the all-time list, Had streak of 76 games with an assist snapped when he failed to get an assist against Portland 1/10/09, the streak dating back to game against Texas-San Antonio Nov. 19, 2006. 170 career steals rank fourth in school history.

Malastein
06-01-2013, 04:06 PM
Why is it "crazy" to prefer KP over JP? And IMO Zags have zero shot at Perkins.

Pargo is infinitely superior on defense. Pangos only has a slight edge offensively.

jazzdelmar
06-01-2013, 04:12 PM
I must be crazy to rise to Jazz's bat-#### nuts bait, but some of Pargo's stats from the record book:

How do rate GU points thru history?

Ps, I don't say Pargo was a stiff, just not top tier, top five, whatever. And I think KP will grade out better after he's done. Geez, chill.

sittingon50
06-01-2013, 04:16 PM
KP still only half way thru, Jazz; still a lot to play out. He's got some catching up to do to surpass DRav, IMO.

jazzdelmar
06-01-2013, 04:24 PM
KP still only half way thru, Jazz; still a lot to play out. He's got some catching up to do to surpass DRav, IMO.

I value and respect your opinion, but I think he has or soon will pass DR. KP started from day one, quarterbacked a #1 team and is a better leader than DR, IMO. He will pass JP in due course, IMO.

Malastein
06-01-2013, 04:52 PM
I value and respect your opinion, but I think he has or soon will pass DR. KP started from day one, quarterbacked a #1 team and is a better leader than DR, IMO. He will pass JP in due course, IMO.

He's not as good of a shooter as DRav. I could see him ending up becoming better, but DRav had a highest tier level senior season. Bouldin is also on the top rung.

maynard g krebs
06-01-2013, 04:59 PM
Hall had as much impact in his 2 years as some guys mentioned in this thread. Without his quickness and toughness, the magic of '99 wouldn't have happened.
One of my personal favorites.

jazzdelmar
06-01-2013, 04:59 PM
He's not as good of a shooter as DRav. I could see him ending up becoming better, but DRav had a highest tier level senior season. Bouldin is also on the top rung.

Yes I would have put MB on tier 1 but he was more a combo guard. Cut above DR and JP, IMO.

Martin Centre Mad Man
06-01-2013, 07:03 PM
Also that article didn't say that Perkins has "misfires". It said his passing is too advanced for his teammates and they don't see the passes coming sometimes.

Jason Kidd had the same problem in high school.

doctorzag
06-01-2013, 09:30 PM
I must be crazy to rise to Jazz's bat-#### nuts bait, but some of Pargo's stats from the record book:

Don`t forget Pargo has the most turnovers in Zag history. Also one of the poorest jump shooters we had. Definitly very overrated in my opinion.

DixieZag
06-01-2013, 10:19 PM
Don`t forget Pargo has the most turnovers in Zag history. Also one of the poorest jump shooters we had. Definitly very overrated in my opinion.

I don't agree at all. He was not one of the better jump shooters we have had at point, but he wasn't a bad shooter and he got better as his career went on.

Pargo is also tied for third overall in assists.

But, we have to include the defensive end also, Pargo is tied with Bouldin for 2nd most steals all time, second to Stockton (by a lot, but second still). Pargo was one of the more aggressive on the ball defenders we have ever had and something that we miss a lot.

I agree that I think Pangos will end up being higher rated and probably has more upside, it doesn't make Pargo second tier in my book, anyway.

ZagaZags
06-01-2013, 10:32 PM
Top tier: obviously JS, Matt, DD, Blake, future KP.

Second tier: Derek, JP, et al..

Third tier: Meech, et al.

JP may be your fave all time but to put him in top tier is, well, crazy.

Maybe 6th tier at best.

jazzdelmar
06-02-2013, 06:58 AM
Maybe 6th tier at best.

I was being kind by limiting the tiers to three.

jazzdelmar
06-02-2013, 07:01 AM
Hall had as much impact in his 2 years as some guys mentioned in this thread. Without his quickness and toughness, the magic of '99 wouldn't have happened.
One of my personal favorites.

Yes. Four years and he'd be tier one. But not among top six.

GoZags
06-02-2013, 07:12 AM
I was being kind by limiting the tiers to three.

Tough, hard nosed point guards that end up playing in the NBA are so overrated.

jazzdelmar
06-02-2013, 09:16 AM
Tough, hard nosed point guards that end up playing in the NBA are so overrated.

GU isn't in the NBA and he didn't play like a pro in college. Good for him, he focused and improved. Still not in my top tier GU point guards. Where on the list do you rate him as a GU pg?

PS, a cup of coffee in the League doesn't rise to the level of "playing in the NBA," IMO. Richie had a few cups too.

BTB
06-02-2013, 09:52 AM
GU isn't in the NBA and he didn't play like a pro in college. Good for him, he focused and improved. Still not in my top tier GU point guards. Where on the list do you rate him as a GU pg?

PS, a cup of coffee in the League doesn't rise to the level of "playing in the NBA," IMO. Richie had a few cups too.

I would put him either in the 1st tier or half a step down. Better than Raivio, not quite to the level of Dickau but not far off.

jazzdelmar
06-02-2013, 11:20 AM
I would put him either in the 1st tier or half a step down. Better than Raivio, not quite to the level of Dickau but not far off.

Agree to a point. DD was a top five national POY as a senior. Second to Matt S as a leader and second to none as a scorer. Pargo, IMO, was far off from 3D. Blake was the best shooter in the top tier and second as best scorer and maybe the best passer. Rav far and away best shooter at among all GU points but not much more leaderly than Pargo.

DixieZag
06-02-2013, 11:46 AM
Pargo was WCC POY in 2008, I think we are forgetting just how much he brought to the team. He improved every year and got every last drop out of his ability - something that not everyone can say.

If a guy can be POY in the conference and still not rise to the first tier - it can only be in comparison to an All-American (Dickau) or other POY (Stepp).

jazzdelmar
06-02-2013, 11:52 AM
Pargo was WCC POY in 2008, I think we are forgetting just how much he brought to the team. He improved every year and got every last drop out of his ability - something that not everyone can say.

If a guy can be POY in the conference and still not rise to the first tier - it can only be in comparison to an All-American (Dickau) or other POY (Stepp).

My point exactly. DD and Blake were incomparable as scorers, playmakers, passers and leaders, Matt was a hidden treasure with intangibles galore, so Pargo will suffer only in comparison. Of greater interest, if your starting a team which do you pick as your point, JS notwithstanding of course. Me, I vacillate between Matt S and 3D.

75Zag
06-02-2013, 03:13 PM
Best to all GU Board readers and posters, but I admit to getting a bit tired of the back and forth re: GU and the NBA. If my math is correct, GU has been around for 126 years and has produced exactly ONE impact player in the NBA. Thank you John Stockton.

I was not a math major, but doing some quick calculations in my head, I think we are not KU, UK, UNC, 'Cuse, Duke, UCLA, Michigan State, or anybody else that "matters" in the NBA world. I really want Kelly O to be an impact player. I have hopes for Sacre as well, and I am not sure Daye is a dead duck quite yet. But I think it may be time to turn my attention away from the NBA and back to the NCAA, where GU has done pretty well lately except for the two major flame outs in college history, which were the loss to UCLA at Oakland and this March.

Go Bulldogs! Get Better! Do Good Things!

Reborn
06-02-2013, 06:43 PM
Nice to see GoZags' post taken off this thread. No need to getting into personal assaults on bloggers here. We're all intitled to our opinions, and it's mine that Jazz is just being honest. So he has opionion, let him say it. It doesn't bother me. I think he's saying that Pargo was good. Very good, but just not on the top tier. He has KP and I disagree with Jazz on that issue. Kevin is only going to be a Junior this year. He has not done enough yet for me yet to be on the top tier. And IMO he is not better right now than Jeremy Pargo was as a senior. I'm not sure Kevin will be what Jeremy became but we will see. IMO Kevin has not been great yet, and Jeremy was great. As good as the others on Jass' top tier. I'm not sure. For me it's pretty close between Jeremy and Blake Stepp. ONe thing that hasn't been mentioned is that Jeremy could OUT DUNK them or anyone who has gone to GU in my opinion. I never saw Jeremy live. And I would have loved to have. I bet he was just incredible. He is a winner in my book and personally i liked him better than Blake.

UberZagFan
06-02-2013, 07:06 PM
Uber opens up a thread about Perkins' visit expecting to get a little details on it and gets nothing but a debate of PGs of yesteryear. Hmmm.

UberZagFan
06-02-2013, 07:08 PM
Jason Kidd had the same problem in high school.

Yes, and Kidd had the same problem in college and to a lesser extent in the NBA. Oh, and Magic as well. Pretty sure it wouldn't be that hard to find highlights of Magic slinging passes off of teammates foreheads.

Reborn
06-02-2013, 07:11 PM
How long you been on GUboards, Uber? Perkins is a point guard, so it's not completely off topic. I've seen worse then this. By far. In fact, now that you mention it, has there ever been a thread that ended the way it started? :boxing: Especially when there is boxing going on.....

UberZagFan
06-02-2013, 07:11 PM
My point exactly. DD and Blake were incomparable as scorers, playmakers, passers and leaders, Matt was a hidden treasure with intangibles galore, so Pargo will suffer only in comparison. Of greater interest, if your starting a team which do you pick as your point, JS notwithstanding of course. Me, I vacillate between Matt S and 3D.

Uber would take a healthy Blake with 4 years experience. But if you have to take bad knee Blake, then yes probably a wash between Matt and DD.

Not sure why some think it's a slight towards Pargo to say he is second tier. Sounds about right. And saying that Pangos will end up on that top tier is just an opinion about the future--don't think (though could be wrong) that Jazz would have Pangos tier 1 now.

UberZagFan
06-02-2013, 07:15 PM
How long you been on GUboards, Uber? Perkins is a point guard, so it's not completely off topic. I've seen worse then this. By far. In fact, now that you mention it, has there ever been a thread that ended the way it started? :boxing: Especially when there is boxing going on.....

To answer your first question, too friggin' long. Before the end of time.

And yes, Uber knows this is par for the course but this thread got derailed in post 3 and not one single post following that had anything to do with the visit. Uber could care less. Just curious if anyone has any other details on Perkins coming to GU.

To answer your last question, no thread in the MBB has ended the way it started. Several in the Foo have, but then again those always start in nonsense and end in nonsense.

Reborn
06-02-2013, 07:19 PM
Top tier: obviously JS, Matt, DD, Blake, future KP.



future KP first tier.

Pargo had his moments at GU but I wouldn't rate him in the top tier of points at the school. I take Pangos any day.

Uber these are two quotes from Jazz!!! Maybe do the research before getting into the fight You'll never win if yu don't...hahaha

jazzdelmar
06-02-2013, 07:20 PM
future KP first tier.

you got it, 'Born. fingers crossed.

Reborn
06-02-2013, 07:26 PM
you got it, 'Born. fingers crossed.

This was a quote by you Jazz. Not me. Sorry. If you read my post you'll see I have pargo on first tier...as for KP...undecided until his senior year....Kevin as a Soph is not first tier material.

jazzdelmar
06-02-2013, 07:34 PM
This was a quote by you Jazz. Not me. Sorry. If you read my post you'll see I have pargo on first tier...as for KP...undecided until his senior year....Kevin as a Soph is not first tier material.

I know u were citing me. No prob. We will see.

sittingon50
06-02-2013, 07:46 PM
Who's this Josh Perkins you speak of, Uber?









:jk:

Worthington
06-02-2013, 08:23 PM
To get back on topic, if we're getting a visit from Perkins then we must have a legitimate shot. I think it takes a pretty unique young player to choose GU when all the big names come calling, even when in many cases we would actually be the best fit. If team chemistry, a tight knit community feel, and a real college experience are high on his priority list then we've got a great chance. Given the last couple years of recruiting, and all the misses we've had, I can understand the jadedness of some posters. If you don't think Perkins is coming here, fair enough, there's a good chance you'll be right, but I don't think it's fair to make assumptions about a kid who you know nothing about and by all accounts seems like a nice kid.

maynard g krebs
06-02-2013, 08:32 PM
Pretty sure it wouldn't be that hard to find highlights of Magic slinging passes off of teammates foreheads.

"It's a rule of basketball that if you hit someone in the head with a pass- on either team- they owe you a six-pack. I love six-packs".

From a well known, and controversial, ESPN analyst last season.

LongIslandZagFan
06-02-2013, 09:04 PM
We've devolved into attacking top end recruits BEFORE they ever set foot on campus. Nice... real nice.

Oregonzagnut
06-02-2013, 09:15 PM
Kevin is the best overall PG for his age and first two seasons ever at Gonzaga. With GBJ, the continuity and chemistry for both will be at a national level next year. We can find some players that are better at some things, but Kevin is tops for his first 2 years overall.

Mark my words, the Pangos/Bell tandem will make national headlines during their jr years. Better roads ahead at Gonzaga. Yes Sireee.

DixieZag
06-02-2013, 10:22 PM
We've devolved into attacking top end recruits BEFORE they ever set foot on campus. Nice... real nice.

Thank you.

And, let's not forget that it does sound like he is going to set foot on this campus, at least for a visit, which is more than any other recruit rated as highly as this one.

Perhaps we aren't in the lead position, but there is still reason to hope and we are in a position that just about every other school would envy.

Come to Gonzaga Josh, you would be appreciated more than you know and the Gonzaga experience is unique, even if it just for two years.

thespywhozaggedme
06-03-2013, 08:09 AM
We've devolved into attacking top end recruits BEFORE they ever set foot on campus. Nice... real nice.

It's not "We", it's one poster; Jazz.

sittingon50
06-03-2013, 10:08 AM
I appreciate your "IMO", "first two seasons" & "overall."

I'll go with Blake Stepp.

*I only go back as far as '92; can't speak intelligently to the guards before that.

UberZagFan
06-03-2013, 01:30 PM
I appreciate your "IMO", "first two seasons" & "overall."

I'll go with Blake Stepp.

*I only go back as far as '92; can't speak intelligently to the guards before that.

Uber was initially thinking the same thing but their numbers are pretty similar:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/compare?add=blake-stepp&blake-stepp=2001-2002&i=1&p1=kevin-pangos

And at least the sophomore led Pangos team got one win (albeit against a #16) in the tourney whereas the sophomore led Stepp (Dickau led?) team was upset in round one. :D

Zags11
06-03-2013, 01:56 PM
:lmao::lmao:

Man, you've got that right!

WOW. So where is that ban....ya know with the name calling?

Pargo was good. Pangos and pargo are totally different.

Itd be nice to get a solid recruit. Also is nice to make March every yr but be nice to see us make it to E8 again also.

Zags11
06-03-2013, 02:08 PM
I think Raivio is super under appreciated on this board. We(including me) skip over what he did for us. I believe in the dark moment of suspended Josh an theo, he helped lead us to march at all.

His Sr yr he avg 18.0 ppg, 2.6 apg, and 3rpg.

He shot 40.9% from 3 that yr and 96% from the line...uhhhh 96%.

Career stats arent on the top tier but dang how I overlooked and alot other guboard members have.

11.5ppg and 41.6% from 3 and 92% from the line.

Raivio actually is one of the best pure pg shooters we have had. His #s are better then almost all from 3pt range but Danny. The only thing are assists per game.

Derek to me was top 5 now as I looked at his stats.

DixieZag
06-03-2013, 02:12 PM
WOW. So where is that ban....ya know with the name calling?

Pargo was good. Pangos and pargo are totally different.

Itd be nice to get a solid recruit. Also is nice to make March every yr but be nice to see us make it to E8 again also.

Unfortunately, "making it to March every year" is totally taken for granted by many and over shadowed by inability to get deep. It should be no trouble to laud Few's ability to consistently keep the team at a level to make the tourney (more consistent than all but 5 other schools) while also being critical of the times there was a poor showing.

Zags11
06-03-2013, 02:47 PM
Unfortunately, "making it to March every year" is totally taken for granted by many and over shadowed by inability to get deep. It should be no trouble to laud Few's ability to consistently keep the team at a level to make the tourney (more consistent than all but 5 other schools) while also being critical of the times there was a poor showing.

I agree.

I would love to see him break through though. He has had the teams and done less with them. Also hasnt had the best teams and done more with them.

It is frustrating at times but also we should all appreciate what has transpired here.

TheZagPhish
06-03-2013, 03:00 PM
He shot 40.9% from 3 that yr and 96% from the line...uhhhh 96%.

And Raivio shot so much from the free throw that it might as well have been a reserved parking spot with his name on it. You'd see opposing coaches pleading with their team not to foul him, especially on in-bound plays; it was like a guaranteed two points.

Huge love for Raivio.

Zags11
06-03-2013, 03:13 PM
And Raivio shot so much from the free throw that it might as well have been a reserved parking spot with his name on it. You'd see opposing coaches pleading with their team not to foul him, especially on in-bound plays; it was like a guaranteed two points.

Huge love for Raivio.

LOL. So overlooked

Worthington
06-03-2013, 10:36 PM
http://zagsblog.com/articles/josh-perkins-visits-ucla-gonzaga-next/


The coach that might have made the biggest impact on Josh Perkins’ recruiting in the end might be Mark Few, coach of the Gonzaga Bulldogs.

“Coach Few has probably been the most involved in Josh’s recruiting,” Randy Perkins said. “They may not have the history at Gonzaga that UCLA does, but coach Few can coach, and I’ve always been impressed with the sincerity that he has about him.”

DixieZag
06-04-2013, 08:14 AM
http://zagsblog.com/articles/josh-perkins-visits-ucla-gonzaga-next/

Very nice.

Few is wonderfully sincere and down to earth. For the right player and family, that has to be a breath of fresh air. I realize that with a player like him things are always stacked against us but it sounds like we have as good a shot as anyone. Credit to Few.

Reborn
06-04-2013, 08:32 AM
that is quite a statement by Josh's dad. Wow!!!!

Go Zags!!!

LongIslandZagFan
06-04-2013, 08:39 AM
USC being in the mix is a joke. If he is going to LA it will be to UCLA.

DixieZag
06-04-2013, 09:01 AM
USC being in the mix is a joke. If he is going to LA it will be to UCLA.

Too true.

It will be interesting to see how that coach from FGC does in attempting to turn that program around. He seems to have the right kind of head and heart.

But, Perkins' family does seem too smart to take a risk on a program that is one year removed from a terrible history.

HenneZag
06-04-2013, 09:10 AM
I know most have already seen this video. This kids vision is freaky good, his ability to make those passes between traffic and at awkward angles is a skill that can't be taught, crazy good. Although its a tough guy to get into a GU uniform, he is visiting this weekend.

Perkins is not making a trip to Spokane for site seeing, he obviously is giving us a good look, I hope we lay out a memorable visit for him. Weather should be good...Red Carpet Please!!

http://youtu.be/vRqNYsZVhXc

DixieZag
06-04-2013, 10:09 AM
I know most have already seen this video. This kids vision is freaky good, his ability to make those passes between traffic and at awkward angles is a skill that can't be taught, crazy good. Although its a tough guy to get into a GU uniform, he is visiting this weekend.

Perkins is not making a trip to Spokane for site seeing, he obviously is giving us a good look, I hope we lay out a memorable visit for him. Weather should be good...Red Carpet Please!!

http://youtu.be/vRqNYsZVhXc

Great video. I could watch a guy move the ball like that all day over "going to the hole" off your man.

cggonzaga
06-04-2013, 10:53 AM
Spectacular passer, great handles, good athleticism, can finish at the basket, can shoot, i'm sure a good defender (even though we don't see in any videos). What is there not to love about this kid? He's a program changer in all honesty. Few takes this program to another level with Perkins, plain and simple. I just know that if we get a Josh Perkins' commitment the rest will follow, i.e. Pope, Travis, Melson, Wright, Chapman, Dorsey, etc. I know not all of them but if we get a Perkins' commitment I bet we end up with 2-3 more top 100 prospects.

cjm720
06-04-2013, 10:56 AM
The Catholic angle is important. I like our chances.

gamagin
06-04-2013, 11:02 AM
is in the mix trying to lure this kid to GU. This would be like getting access & to work with Bob Cousy or Magic for four years.

DixieZag
06-04-2013, 11:13 AM
is in the mix trying to lure this kid to GU. This would be like getting access & to work with Bob Cousy or Magic for four years.

One can hope. Perhaps Perkins is the type of player that would recognize that chance.

However, Jazz is probably right about this one, kids these days are doing well if they can spell Magic, never mind knowing how he dominated.

Again, Perkins might be the exception, his game is old school - - it is definitely worth trying.

hooter73
06-04-2013, 11:32 AM
He's a program changer in all honesty. Few takes this program to another level with Perkins, plain and simple. I just know that if we get a Josh Perkins' commitment the rest will follow, i.e. Pope, Travis, Melson, Wright, Chapman, Dorsey, etc. I know not all of them but if we get a Perkins' commitment I bet we end up with 2-3 more top 100 prospects.

Program changer is a little much, and do we need to change? We are known for winning and developing under the radar players. I'll take that over quite a bit.

As far as the other recruits coming in just because of Perkins, does anyone remember the endless summer debate when both Bell and Pangos committed? Which one is going to start and play point and sit and transfer... seeing how they developed into a tandem team, it does make me wonder how much the other players even at the same projected positions have and impact on recruits.

My biggest hope is that KO and Harris would be on campus during Perkins visit. See what its like to run the floor with some bigs who can show what other bigs at GU can play like. "Look Josh, you could be dishing assits to guys who use those assist to get finishes that get them to the NBA." thats kinda cool I would think.

And one of his first videos spoke to how important a Catholic atmosphere is to him. Hope that remains over the next few years and not just for our chances. Its a rare quality in a rising star athlete to hold true to their religious beliefs. No matter where he is I hope his strong convictions remain.

sittingon50
06-04-2013, 11:53 AM
spell Magick anyway, Dixie?

:p

cggonzaga
06-04-2013, 01:03 PM
Program changer is a little much, and do we need to change?

Yes and yes. A blue chipper at a school like Gonzaga could definitely change things. Ask Duke about 25 years ago. Until we start winning in March, change wouldn't hurt. For those that love being the underddog all the best to you. i want to be the hunted, the elite program everybody wants to beat. We need to start embracing this mentality and start moving away from the underddog mentality. We ain't sneaking up on anybody anymore. We need an attitude change. We need to be cockier, meaner.

ZagaZags
06-04-2013, 01:08 PM
Too true.

It will be interesting to see how that coach from FGC does in attempting to turn that program around. He seems to have the right kind of head and heart.

But, Perkins' family does seem too smart to take a risk on a program that is one year removed from a terrible history.

Has over 23 offers out for 2014.

cjm720
06-04-2013, 01:59 PM
Yes and yes. A blue chipper at a school like Gonzaga could definitely change things. Ask Duke about 25 years ago. Until we start winning in March, change wouldn't hurt. For those that love being the underddog all the best to you. i want to be the hunted, the elite program everybody wants to beat. We need to start embracing this mentality and start moving away from the underddog mentality. We ain't sneaking up on anybody anymore. We need an attitude change. We need to be cockier, meaner.

Are you talking to the fan base or the coaches? Big difference and I'm 100% certain coach Few is with you.

A little problem, however, and it's the WCC. Personally, I'm fine with it...love winning 25+ games a year and a dance ticket. And I believe we'll make the FF or get a National Championship and the big name Gonzaga from the small little religious conference will prove all the doubters wrong.

DixieZag
06-04-2013, 02:23 PM
spell Magick anyway, Dixie?

:p

I probably am the worst person to make that point. I probably spell WCC wrong half the time.

thespywhozaggedme
06-04-2013, 04:17 PM
Program changer is a little much, and do we need to change? We are known for winning and developing under the radar players. I'll take that over quite a bit.

As far as the other recruits coming in just because of Perkins, does anyone remember the endless summer debate when both Bell and Pangos committed? Which one is going to start and play point and sit and transfer... seeing how they developed into a tandem team, it does make me wonder how much the other players even at the same projected positions have and impact on recruits.

My biggest hope is that KO and Harris would be on campus during Perkins visit. See what its like to run the floor with some bigs who can show what other bigs at GU can play like. "Look Josh, you could be dishing assits to guys who use those assist to get finishes that get them to the NBA." thats kinda cool I would think.

And one of his first videos spoke to how important a Catholic atmosphere is to him. Hope that remains over the next few years and not just for our chances. Its a rare quality in a rising star athlete to hold true to their religious beliefs. No matter where he is I hope his strong convictions remain.

If we're gonna be brutally honest with ourselves, we're more known for leaving MM earlier than we should on a yearly basis at this point. I think cg's point was that JP is that good of a player that he could put us over that proverbial hump. He would be the highest rated recruit to ever sign with us.

GoZags
06-04-2013, 04:44 PM
If we're gonna be brutally honest with ourselves, we're more known for leaving MM earlier than we should on a yearly basis at this point. I think cg's point was that JP is that good of a player that he could put us over that proverbial hump. He would be the highest rated recruit to ever sign with us.

Sure.......

Not getting to the Sweet 16 (or beyond) as a 1 seed was tough.

But to your point???

The Zags have underperformed to their seed exactly 5 times out of their 16 NCAA tourney appearances (and twice over the last 8 dances). BTW, their average seed over their 16 appearances has been 7.4.

Other than that, great "brutally honest" point.

Edited to add: And as to the point you were questioning (i.e. Gonzaga's ability to develop "Under the radar" players?) I'd like to see if you (or anyone) can find a school that has never had a Top 25 recruiting class have 3 AP Top 5 All Americans over the last dozen seasons (2 of which were ** or *** recruits).

Of Gonzaga's first round NBA draft choices, only one (Austin Daye) was coveted out of high school. Sure Dan Dickau had offers, but what did he do at Washington vs what he did at Gonzaga? You can't get any more under the radar than John Stockton coming out of high school (or college for that matter).

thespywhozaggedme
06-04-2013, 05:11 PM
Sure.......

Not getting to the Sweet 16 (or beyond) as a 1 seed was tough.

But to your point???

The Zags have underperformed to their seed exactly 5 times out of their 16 NCAA tourney appearances (and twice over the last 8 dances). BTW, their average seed over their 16 appearances has been 7.4.

Other than that, great "brutally honest" point.

You're shooting the messenger. Whether the point is right, wrong or indifferent is irrelevant; the point is that we are now known as perennial underachievers. I think JP is good enough to eradicate that moniker. Do you think he's goo enough?

WallaWallaZag
06-04-2013, 05:48 PM
You're shooting the messenger. Whether the point is right, wrong or indifferent is irrelevant; the point is that we are now known as perennial underachievers. I think JP is good enough to eradicate that moniker. Do you think he's goo enough?

gotta agree with spy here gozags...think you're being a bit defensive but the point is valid that the national perception seems to have swayed from overachievers to underachievers...plus all-american white guys with funky hair & mustaches.

Reborn
06-04-2013, 07:58 PM
We ain't sneaking up on anybody anymore. We need an attitude change. We need to be cockier, meaner.

I really like the first two statements, cggonzaga. However, I don't think the attitude change that is needed is to be cockier or meaner.

The two ideas i'd put out there is first they need to be tougher. The Zags must put to rest, the idea that they are not physically tough. I am so tired of hearing this. To do this they do not have to be mean. Toughness is not meanness, imo. And the second thing that I hope happens soon is that they must become better defenders of the 3 pt line. I think we are all tired of seeing their inability to do so.

cggonzaga
06-04-2013, 08:49 PM
I'm not saying we need to be Bob Huggins' old Bearcats teams but we need to develop a mentality that we're the best and we're not afraid of anybody. If you hit us in the mouth we'll respond. We looked soft against Wichita and the Shockers fed off of that. So when I say meaner I don't mean cheapshotting somebody rather delivering the first blow on a blockout or screen, getting out to a lead and then burying the other team, never let a team like Wichita believe they had a chance in a game against us.

MDABE80
06-04-2013, 08:54 PM
SHort of tackleing those shooters , I don't know what we might have done against WSU. Those guys were simply unconscious......for that one night. Skilled team not doubt but way over the top against us.

cggonzaga
06-04-2013, 09:42 PM
Oh I don't know. Maybe after laying a stinker and giving up 15 3s against a 16 seed we could've come out as the aggressors against Wichita. Maybe not let them get comfortable with 7 3s in the first half. "Short of tackling them" would make sense if we were close to them to begin with. Of their 14 3s I think I counted 8-9 as being uncontested. Yes they hit some clutch shots at the end but they never should've been in the game in the first place.

MDABE80
06-04-2013, 11:22 PM
Oh I don't know. Maybe after laying a stinker and giving up 15 3s against a 16 seed we could've come out as the aggressors against Wichita. Maybe not let them get comfortable with 7 3s in the first half. "Short of tackling them" would make sense if we were close to them to begin with. Of their 14 3s I think I counted 8-9 as being uncontested. Yes they hit some clutch shots at the end but they never should've been in the game in the first place.

Some were but most were. The point is that night nobody could have stopped them. Way better than they'd done before or after our loss....then they fizzled. Truth be known, we played well enough to win by 6 instead of a 6 point loss. We just got skunked in that period where they couldn't miss. Only shooting I've seen like that was Curry when we played Davidson.

Suit yourself though...

Oregonzagnut
06-04-2013, 11:24 PM
Teams that beat us seem to go far in the dance. Pangos and Bell will remedy that next year with the toughest guard play we have had at Gonzaga.

"We gonna dance, 100% chance, we gonna dance."

cjm720
06-05-2013, 06:32 AM
Yes they hit some clutch shots at the end but they never should've been in the game in the first place.

No credit to Wichita State? Gosh, they had the smallest margin of victory in the tourney against the eventual NC, Louisville. Gosh, I think they're a pretty good team and we got beat, yet we still were in a position to win. Sucks, but I've made peace with it long ago...no harm in losing to a final 4 team.

gamagin
06-05-2013, 06:36 AM
You're shooting the messenger. Whether the point is right, wrong or indifferent is irrelevant; the point is that we are now known as perennial underachievers. I think JP is good enough to eradicate that moniker. Do you think he's goo enough?

the bottom line to me is disappointment is one thing. Cobbling together a thesis about the "perennial underachivers," repeating it and then winding up by calling it a well established label (yoke ?) under which we must now labor, is, to be kind, pure horse puckey.

I don't understand why or how so many posters, like yourself, can't just make a claim and call it their own. YOU think GU is "known as perennial underachievers."

Prove it. With links. Direct quotes from disinterested third party sports reporters who have some claim to legitimacy. If this is universal, as you suggest, in what universe can I read about it, besides this one ? Thanks.

GoZags
06-05-2013, 06:54 AM
Teams that beat us seem to go far in the dance. Pangos and Bell will remedy that next year with the toughest guard play we have had at Gonzaga.

"We gonna dance, 100% chance, we gonna dance."

Yes -- those 2 losses that didn't live up to Gonzaga's seed over the last 8 dances were to Final Four Wichita State and to Elite 8 Davidson (who were 4 seconds and a fortunate bounce/miracle three away from the Final Four).

hooter73
06-05-2013, 07:38 AM
I am more than happy being known for quality play instead of tough/Meanness. I have zero respect for thug ball, which is why I like Gonzaga.

We know GU is a winning team. most winning-est coach in Basketball, win our conference *every year, majority amount of games are nationally televised and on espn, we as fans know this... BUT like it or not, there is a perception out there of worry about GU in every month except March. No matter if you agree or want to know the source or facts or quotes, or if you can point to the statistics of how its not true, that perception is out there.

Perkins would be huge, HUGE for us. but one player cannot take us over the hump alone. An All American KO backed up by a record breaking Harris got shutdown in March. One player doesnt make the team.

HenneZag
06-05-2013, 07:46 AM
I agree that one player doesn't make the team. But landing a guy like Perkins will help us reel in some other top talent we are recruiting currently...Pope/Reid etc. Players of this caliber want to be around other top talent. I am not saying we don't recruit talent, just have to dig a bit more to find it and be more creative in years past.

If we can find a way to get Perkins I think we set ourselves up for snagging 2-3 top tier players.

HenneZag
06-05-2013, 07:57 AM
Looks like KP will be heading to China tomorrow. Would have been nice to have KP around to hang with Perkins, such a great guy and represents GU well.

GoZags
06-05-2013, 07:58 AM
It's my opinion that the gist of the national "perspective" lies primarily with the exposure that Gonzaga gets VS the inability to make a Final Four or a recent deep run (as of yet) in the NCAA tourney.

I believe that perception has merit.

I doubt there are any other schools who haven't made it to the Sweet 16 (or beyond) over the past 4 seasons that have received as many column inches or airtime as have the Zags.

That being said ...... in my opinion they key phrase is "as of yet".

This program isn't done ...... and it's my opinion that the true "glory" days of Gonzaga Basketball continue to lie ahead...... when they will have "earned" the accolades based on March (and April) performance.

ZagNative
06-05-2013, 08:10 AM
Looks like KP will be heading to China tomorrow. Would have been nice to have KP around to hang with Perkins, such a great guy and represents GU well.I wonder which of the players will be in town if Perkins visits this weekend. I know that Sam has been back home in Minnesota and I don't know when he'll be back. I think Gary Bell is in Spokane and maybe Kyle Dranginis. Presumably David Stockton and Karnowski?

DixieZag
06-05-2013, 08:13 AM
It's my opinion that the gist of the national "perspective" lies primarily with the exposure that Gonzaga gets VS the inability to make a Final Four or a recent deep run (as of yet) in the NCAA tourney.

I believe that perception has merit.

I doubt there are any other schools who haven't made it to the Sweet 16 (or beyond) over the past 4 seasons that have received as many column inches or airtime as have the Zags.

That being said ...... in my opinion they key phrase is "as of yet".

This program isn't done ...... and it's my opinion that the true "glory" days of Gonzaga Basketball continue to lie ahead...... when they will have "earned" the accolades based on March (and April) performance.

Well Said, Go Zags - - We are not done. A case can be made that we are trending in the right direction. With a few exceptions, teams are generally improved from the ones before them, we haven't had a one and out in the tournament in forever, generally we are getting better seeding than early in our run.

There are legitimate counter points - I know them and I am sure someone will list them, but I sill see the program rising in national prominence, overall level of play. In this past we have had AA in Dickau and Morrison, now Kelly, it's no longer a fluke, it is expected. a win over Whichita (which was more likely than not going into the last 5) a near certain win over whoever was next and then a battle against OSU who couldn't play WSU as well as us. Basically 2 tough games away from the FF and this discussion is totally moot.

thespywhozaggedme
06-05-2013, 08:13 AM
Sure.......

Not getting to the Sweet 16 (or beyond) as a 1 seed was tough.

But to your point???

The Zags have underperformed to their seed exactly 5 times out of their 16 NCAA tourney appearances (and twice over the last 8 dances). BTW, their average seed over their 16 appearances has been 7.4.

Other than that, great "brutally honest" point.

Edited to add: And as to the point you were questioning (i.e. Gonzaga's ability to develop "Under the radar" players?) I'd like to see if you (or anyone) can find a school that has never had a Top 25 recruiting class have 3 AP Top 5 All Americans over the last dozen seasons (2 of which were ** or *** recruits).

Of Gonzaga's first round NBA draft choices, only one (Austin Daye) was coveted out of high school. Sure Dan Dickau had offers, but what did he do at Washington vs what he did at Gonzaga? You can't get any more under the radar than John Stockton coming out of high school (or college for that matter).

Uh..........did you quote the wrong person? I never questioned that point anywhere. :confused::confused::confused:

thespywhozaggedme
06-05-2013, 08:18 AM
the bottom line to me is disappointment is one thing. Cobbling together a thesis about the "perennial underachivers," repeating it and then winding up by calling it a well established label (yoke ?) under which we must now labor, is, to be kind, pure horse puckey.

I don't understand why or how so many posters, like yourself, can't just make a claim and call it their own. YOU think GU is "known as perennial underachievers."

Prove it. With links. Direct quotes from disinterested third party sports reporters who have some claim to legitimacy. If this is universal, as you suggest, in what universe can I read about it, besides this one ? Thanks.

Are you serious? WOW, I really don't know what to say. All of the links and quotes to the barking seals and talking heads that were killing us before, during and after our "run" this past season were posted here a while back. Are you honestly telling me that you haven't heard us repeatedly called "underachievers"? Maybe you're being honest and you haven't heard this. Okay.

thespywhozaggedme
06-05-2013, 08:21 AM
It's my opinion that the gist of the national "perspective" lies primarily with the exposure that Gonzaga gets VS the inability to make a Final Four or a recent deep run (as of yet) in the NCAA tourney.

I believe that perception has merit.

I doubt there are any other schools who haven't made it to the Sweet 16 (or beyond) over the past 4 seasons that have received as many column inches or airtime as have the Zags.

That being said ...... in my opinion they key phrase is "as of yet".

This program isn't done ...... and it's my opinion that the true "glory" days of Gonzaga Basketball continue to lie ahead...... when they will have "earned" the accolades based on March (and April) performance.


WHAT?!?!??!?! Okay, I know that self deprecation isn't your strong suit, but even you must admit that your posts in this thread are a little whacky. You're agreeing with those of us that you were just arguing with a few posts ago. So................we're all in agreement? (Ducks and covers waiting for reply).

GoZags
06-05-2013, 08:42 AM
WHAT?!?!??!?! Okay, I know that self deprecation isn't your strong suit, but even you must admit that your posts in this thread are a little whacky. You're agreeing with those of us that you were just arguing with a few posts ago. So................we're all in agreement? (Ducks and covers waiting for reply).

There is a HUGE difference between not making a Final Four or recent Elite 8 and (as you put it) being "more known for leaving MM earlier than we should on a yearly basis at this point." The Zags have underperformed to their seed twice out of the last 8 seasons -- to Elite 8 Davidson and to Final Four Wichita State. How in the world is that "on a yearly basis at this point"

If one can't see that difference then I can't help you.

As for my alleged "misquote" of you earlier ..... please read post 76 again and see what you'd "bolded, highlighted and disagreed with".

cjm720
06-05-2013, 08:43 AM
Are you serious? WOW, I really don't know what to say. All of the links and quotes to the barking seals and talking heads that were killing us before, during and after our "run" this past season were posted here a while back. Are you honestly telling me that you haven't heard us repeatedly called "underachievers"? Maybe you're being honest and you haven't heard this. Okay.

All the media #####ing related to us being seeded as a #1 and we were predicted to be the first #1 to lose in the tourney. There's a difference between being perceived as underachievers and being perceived as too highly seeded.

Bottom line, our reputation of success has created a high level of expectation for fans. As GoZags pointed out, expectations and reality aren't necessarily the same, since we've overachieved our seeding more than we've underachieved.

CDC84
06-05-2013, 08:47 AM
Josh Perkins is clearly the number one priority of the 2014 recruiting class for Mark Few and his coaching staff. They have been on this kid since the ice ages, and they have seen him in person far more many times than any board members have. He's a top 30 player and a future McDonald's AA...Gonzaga has never had one commit to them directly out of high school.

This should be something that really, really excites the board. This could be another major milestone for the program. You can tell from the Papa Perkins' comments that the family is really considering GU very seriously.

I'm not getting why this thread has turned out the way that it has. I miss the days when we had guys like Matt Bouldin and Deon Thompson on campus at the same time. True excitement was in the air...both on campus and on the board.

thespywhozaggedme
06-05-2013, 08:51 AM
There is a HUGE difference between not making a Final Four or recent Elite 8 and (as you put it) being "more known for leaving MM earlier than we should on a yearly basis at this point." The Zags have underperformed to their seed twice out of the last 8 seasons -- to Elite 8 Davidson and to Final Four Wichita State. How in the world is that "on a yearly basis at this point"

If one can't see that difference then I can't help you.

As for my alleged "misquote" of you earlier ..... please read post 76 again and see what you'd "bolded, highlighted and disagreed with".

You're wrong.

cggonzaga
06-05-2013, 08:51 AM
Perkins would be huge, HUGE for us. but one player cannot take us over the hump alone. An All American KO backed up by a record breaking Harris got shutdown in March. One player doesnt make the team

I think we're in general agreement here Hooter but that's not what I said. Henne stated it much better. I believe Perkins to push us over the top not only because of his skill set but because of what else I believe he'll be able to bring in. Players will want to play with him. He's now getting serious attention from Kentucky, UConn and Syracuse along with us and UCLA. We're talking about an elite player and let's face it, in general those teams that win in March have the best talent.

thespywhozaggedme
06-05-2013, 08:52 AM
all the media #####ing related to us being seeded as a #1 and we were predicted to be the first #1 to lose in the tourney. There's a difference between being perceived as underachievers and being perceived as too highly seeded.

Bottom line, our reputation of success has created a high level of expectation for fans. as gozags pointed out, expectations and reality aren't necessarily the same, since we've overachieved our seeding more than we've underachieved.

i also pointed that out!!!

thespywhozaggedme
06-05-2013, 08:53 AM
I'm done with this thread. I'm sick and tired of people walking on egg shells and some posters being bullies. I don't need the stress right now. There was no malice in this thread at all, but as usual, any dissent or disagreement is met head on with such strong armed strident rebuke, it instills fear. That's not fun.

KStyles
06-05-2013, 08:55 AM
As GoZags pointed out, expectations and reality aren't necessarily the same, since we've overachieved our seeding more than we've underachieved.

Out of 16 tourney appearances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzaga_Bulldogs_men's_basketball#NCAA_Tournament) , GU has overachieved vs. their seeding 5 times (99, 00, 01, 03, 11), underachieved vs. their seeding 5 times (02, 04, 05, 08, 13) and performed at par 6 times (95, 06, 07, 09, 10, 12).

ZagNative
06-05-2013, 08:56 AM
How does it help us recruit great talent when every thread about a recruit devolves the way this one has? Here's hoping Josh and his family don't visit this board.

cjm720
06-05-2013, 08:57 AM
How does it help us recruit great talent when every thread about a recruit devolves the way this one has? Here's hoping Josh and his family don't visit this board.

My thoughts exactly.

Another thought: how the heck don't think we have a chance with this kid when he is visiting?

In the words of ZN, "geez."

cjm720
06-05-2013, 09:23 AM
Out of 16 tourney appearances (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzaga_Bulldogs_men's_basketball#NCAA_Tournament) , GU has overachieved vs. their seeding 5 times (99, 00, 01, 03, 11), underachieved vs. their seeding 5 times (02, 04, 05, 08, 13) and performed at par 6 times (95, 06, 07, 09, 10, 12).

Thanks for the link. I took another look at this and what's missing in the analysis is how we fare beyond the first round.

In 34 games played, here are the results:

When we were the worse seed (e.g., as a #10 vs. #7, etc.): record = 8-11

When we were the better seed (e.g., as a #3 vs. #14, etc.): record = 11-4

HenneZag
06-05-2013, 09:24 AM
TSSF report on twitter that Reid Travis will visit during Hoopfest weekend. Very appealing!

LongIslandZagFan
06-05-2013, 10:00 AM
How many top 30 potential burger boys have ever set foot on the GU campus?

thespywhozaggedme
06-05-2013, 10:09 AM
How many top 30 potential burger boys have ever set foot on the GU campus?

Not counting Micah? I think AD was nominated, not sure if he was a final 30 though. The fact that JP visiting is great news and his dad's words are very encouraging. Jazz is the only poster that said we have no shot with him, and that's just sort of his shtick; he'll be as ecstatic as the rest of us if he commits.

Malastein
06-05-2013, 10:25 AM
Some were but most were. The point is that night nobody could have stopped them. Way better than they'd done before or after our loss....then they fizzled. Truth be known, we played well enough to win by 6 instead of a 6 point loss. We just got skunked in that period where they couldn't miss. Only shooting I've seen like that was Curry when we played Davidson.

Suit yourself though...

I find this to be the typical excuse for when Gonzaga loses in the tournament. "Gonzaga was better, but they played a team playing the best game of their lives." Not buying it. Gonzaga played poorly. Not enough off the ball movement, and not enough solid outside looks. The Zags didn't play as hunters, and got hunted down. I think the number one ranking did the team no favors in the end, since that ranking is more a battle of attrition than anything else.

There's a lot of solid players on the team, but this past year's team was lacking guys with that edge like Bouldin, Stepp, Dickau, Frahm, Santangelo, and Morrison. The ones with the attitude that they'll make something happen when they need to score a big bucket late. The team has a lot of role players who play their roles very well, but not a lot of guys who have that star edge. As good as Olynyk was, I don't remember feeling during any game that he was willing the tea to victory no matter what. Pangos only gives off that vibe when he is hot, and he's not consistent enough at this point to count on.

Perkins sounds like a guy who could push Gonzaga to a higher level. The Zags need to start going deeper to land guys like Perkins, especially as they remain in the subpar WCC. A final four appearance this past season would've done great things for recruiting, and now it is giving guys pauses. Hopefully, the staff will get this kid to pull the trigger.

LongIslandZagFan
06-05-2013, 10:39 AM
Not counting Micah? I think AD was nominated, not sure if he was a final 30 though. The fact that JP visiting is great news and his dad's words are very encouraging. Jazz is the only poster that said we have no shot with him, and that's just sort of his shtick; he'll be as ecstatic as the rest of us if he commits.

My point was more that Few and Co. ARE trying to take this to the next level. Austin was top 50 iirc... Don't think we've had talent at this level on campus since almost ever.

webspinnre
06-05-2013, 10:46 AM
My point was more that Few and Co. ARE trying to take this to the next level. Austin was top 50 iirc... Don't think we've had talent at this level on campus since almost ever.

Exactly. Reid Travis is another big-time recruit. Whether we get them or not, I don't know, but they're definitely working hard on this class.

KStyles
06-05-2013, 10:59 AM
Thanks for the link. I took another look at this and what's missing in the analysis is how we fare beyond the first round.

In 34 games played, here are the results:

When we were the worse seed (e.g., as a #10 vs. #7, etc.): record = 8-11

When we were the better seed (e.g., as a #3 vs. #14, etc.): record = 11-4

I've always heard the overachiever/underachiever being thrown out, and was just trying to put some numbers behind these terms. You're right, I was just doing a year-by-year analysis of whether a team over/under achieved and the varying degrees of by how much were missing from my figures. My assumption was that most people (media, casual fans) using the underachiever labels would lump each year into one of those 3, without getting into the degrees of over/underachievement.

Looking at it on a game-by-game basis as you did definitely gives some credit to the degrees at which teams overachieved but I'm not so sure those figures show the whole picture of how much a team underachieved. Games that a worse seeded team should not have played in are included in those records, but the games a better seeded team should have played in but didn't have the opportunity due to an early loss are not.

Take 1999 and 2013 for example: '99 team was 3-1 as a worse seed & '13 team was 1-1 as a better seed. It looks like the '99 team overachieved far more than the '13 team underachieved, but in reality, the 99 team went 3 rounds farther than their seed (played 4 games, should've been in one) while the 2013 team fell 3 rounds short of their seed (played 2 games, should've been in 5).

I'm not sure if there is a good way to represent underachievement, and I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but perhaps the number of rounds the team went each year vs. how far their seed would've dictated may be a more balanced way to look at it? It seems that those numbers would include the extra rounds an overachieving team participated in, but would also include the rounds an underachieving team missed which would never show in a win-loss record. I tried looking at it from this angle below:

95: 0
99: 3
00: 2
01: 2
02: -1
03: 1
04: -2
05: -1
06: 0
07: 0
08: -1
09: 0
10: 0
11: 1
12: 0
13: -3

Running through this (and assuming my numbers are correct), overall, out of 16 tourney appearances, the GU teams have been a part of 9 more rounds than their seeds would've dictated, and missed out on 8 rounds they should've been in. Looking at it this way, it appears the 16 tourney teams GU has fielded have slightly (one round) overachieved overall (as you'd said earlier). Like I said, this may not be the best way to look at it if we're trying to do something other than lump entire years into one of three categories, but it seems to me like it may represent underachievement a bit more than a win/loss record does?

ZagLawGrad
06-05-2013, 11:00 AM
How many top 30 potential burger boys have ever set foot on the GU campus?

My opinion is that it's likely none will continue to set foot on campus.

Perhaps a deep run after that #1 ranking might have changed that trend.

We may never know.

sittingon50
06-05-2013, 11:05 AM
also being recruited as a (6'7") QB.

That he is visiting a Basketball only school in GU seems somewhat promising to me. Hoopfest weekend surely helps.

thespywhozaggedme
06-05-2013, 11:09 AM
My point was more that Few and Co. ARE trying to take this to the next level. Austin was top 50 iirc... Don't think we've had talent at this level on campus since almost ever.

Oh, okay, gotcha. Yup, this is very exciting news.

thespywhozaggedme
06-05-2013, 11:09 AM
My opinion is that it's likely none will continue to set foot on campus.

Perhaps a deep run after that #1 ranking might have changed that trend.

We may never know.

None, except Josh Perkins?

cjm720
06-05-2013, 11:41 AM
I find this to be the typical excuse for when Gonzaga loses in the tournament. "Gonzaga was better, but they played a team playing the best game of their lives." Not buying it. Gonzaga played poorly. Not enough off the ball movement, and not enough solid outside looks. The Zags didn't play as hunters, and got hunted down. I think the number one ranking did the team no favors in the end, since that ranking is more a battle of attrition than anything else.

And how about Ohio State? What's their excuse to losing to Wichita State?

cjm720
06-05-2013, 11:48 AM
I've always heard the overachiever/underachiever being thrown out, and was just trying to put some numbers behind these terms. You're right, I was just doing a year-by-year analysis of whether a team over/under achieved and the varying degrees of by how much were missing from my figures. My assumption was that most people (media, casual fans) using the underachiever labels would lump each year into one of those 3, without getting into the degrees of over/underachievement.

Looking at it on a game-by-game basis as you did definitely gives some credit to the degrees at which teams overachieved but I'm not so sure those figures show the whole picture of how much a team underachieved. Games that a worse seeded team should not have played in are included in those records, but the games a better seeded team should have played in but didn't have the opportunity due to an early loss are not.

Take 1999 and 2013 for example: '99 team was 3-1 as a worse seed & '13 team was 1-1 as a better seed. It looks like the '99 team overachieved far more than the '13 team underachieved, but in reality, the 99 team went 3 rounds farther than their seed (played 4 games, should've been in one) while the 2013 team fell 3 rounds short of their seed (played 2 games, should've been in 5).

I'm not sure if there is a good way to represent underachievement, and I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but perhaps the number of rounds the team went each year vs. how far their seed would've dictated may be a more balanced way to look at it? It seems that those numbers would include the extra rounds an overachieving team participated in, but would also include the rounds an underachieving team missed which would never show in a win-loss record. I tried looking at it from this angle below:

95: 0
99: 3
00: 2
01: 2
02: -1
03: 1
04: -2
05: -1
06: 0
07: 0
08: -1
09: 0
10: 0
11: 1
12: 0
13: -3

Running through this (and assuming my numbers are correct), overall, out of 16 tourney appearances, the GU teams have been a part of 9 more rounds than their seeds would've dictated, and missed out on 8 rounds they should've been in. Looking at it this way, it appears the 16 tourney teams GU has fielded have slightly (one round) overachieved overall (as you'd said earlier). Like I said, this may not be the best way to look at it if we're trying to do something other than lump entire years into one of three categories, but it seems to me like it may represent underachievement a bit more than a win/loss record does?

Not a bad way to look at things. Stats are funny, you can slice and dice however you want to paint a picture and I think you're on to something. But the fact of the matter is that we have an overwhelming record against teams we were supposed to beat: 11-4 or 73% winning percentage; yet we win 42% of the games we're supposed to lose. That's pretty conclusive from a game by game perspective IMO.

GoZags
06-05-2013, 12:01 PM
How many top 30 potential burger boys have ever set foot on the GU campus?

Luke Ridnour is the only one I can think of. He chose Oregon over Gonzaga and Kentucky....... Those were his final 3. Fewie and staff came very, very close but missed.

Of course GU subsequently got the Dickau transfer that offset not getting Luke.

Note: Few also came close with Jordan Farmar who was set to be a Zag until his estranged father re-entered his life and voila, it was UCLA.

cggonzaga
06-05-2013, 01:10 PM
I find this to be the typical excuse for when Gonzaga loses in the tournament. "Gonzaga was better, but they played a team playing the best game of their lives." Not buying it. Gonzaga played poorly. Not enough off the ball movement, and not enough solid outside looks. The Zags didn't play as hunters, and got hunted down. I think the number one ranking did the team no favors in the end, since that ranking is more a battle of attrition than anything else.

There's a lot of solid players on the team, but this past year's team was lacking guys with that edge like Bouldin, Stepp, Dickau, Frahm, Santangelo, and Morrison. The ones with the attitude that they'll make something happen when they need to score a big bucket late. The team has a lot of role players who play their roles very well, but not a lot of guys who have that star edge. As good as Olynyk was, I don't remember feeling during any game that he was willing the tea to victory no matter what. Pangos only gives off that vibe when he is hot, and he's not consistent enough at this point to count on.

Perkins sounds like a guy who could push Gonzaga to a higher level. The Zags need to start going deeper to land guys like Perkins, especially as they remain in the subpar WCC. A final four appearance this past season would've done great things for recruiting, and now it is giving guys pauses. Hopefully, the staff will get this kid to pull the trigger.


+1


And how about Ohio State? What's their excuse to losing to Wichita State?

Who cares? What's your point? What does that have to do with us losing to them?

ZagaZags
06-05-2013, 01:13 PM
I'm done with this thread. I'm sick and tired of people walking on egg shells and some posters being bullies. I don't need the stress right now. There was no malice in this thread at all, but as usual, any dissent or disagreement is met head on with such strong armed strident rebuke, it instills fear. That's not fun.

That could be the new name for GU Boards.

Oregonzagnut
06-05-2013, 01:13 PM
Gonzaga is still overachieving IMO. And that is a 100% compliment.

Few gets the most out of his guys and the staff. Plus he is doing it with a commitment to an ethical system and philosophy that involves every area of the collegiate game. He adheres to the Gonzaga Gold Standard during the recruiting process, training, academics, scheduling, during the games and even in the personal lives of those in the program.

The success of our best season ever is what recruits will look at most, not the WSU game.

Remember, we lost Bell and they hit 14 three pointers and they went on to the FF.

ZAGGED OUT
06-05-2013, 01:42 PM
Remember, we lost Bell and they hit 14 three pointers and they went on to the FF.

Excuses.

Oregonzagnut
06-05-2013, 03:11 PM
Excuses.

Any recruit who is seriously looking at the program knows they can't judge based on one game. And Gonzaga's history and resume speaks louder than any single loss.

WSU beat us. But it took us losing Bell and it took them hitting 5 consecutive threes to end the game. Fact. No excuses.

webspinnre
06-05-2013, 04:06 PM
Excuses.

You're right, what terrible excuses. We lost our best perimeter defender, the other team had an unbelievable hot streak, and we narrowly lost to a FF team. Obviously our year was a failure.

Malastein
06-05-2013, 05:05 PM
Any recruit who is seriously looking at the program knows they can't judge based on one game. And Gonzaga's history and resume speaks louder than any single loss.

WSU beat us. But it took us losing Bell and it took them hitting 5 consecutive threes to end the game. Fact. No excuses.

The resume is impressive, but probably top 15 impressive over th run. I think some fans have an inflated opinion of how well the Zags' resume should be perceived, and it shows when analysts don't always regard Gonzaga as a top team in a given year. Some analysts will think highly one year, and get plastered on here the next when they don't have nearly as rosy of an outlook.

Bottom line is that the program needs a deep run sooner than later since it affecting the program more and more.

jazzdelmar
06-05-2013, 07:01 PM
Wednesday, June 5, 2013
UCLA, Gonzaga on top for Perkins?
By Joe Kaiser


Do west coast powers UCLA and Gonzaga have the best chance at rising 2014 point guard Josh Perkins (Denver, Col./Huntington Prep)? Or will Perkins' recent move to Huntington Prep for his senior season change things? Those are some of the big questions in what's sure to be a big-time recruiting battle this summer.

The 6-foot-3 point guard visited UCLA over the weekend, and he tells Lindsey Thiry of FOX Sports NEXT that he and new Bruins coach Steve Alford have a tight relationship. In fact, Perkins' first official visit was to New Mexico when Alford was there, so this could very well be a big advantage for the Pac-12 school.

Perkins lists UCLA, USC, Gonzaga and Minnesota as the schools that have recruited him the hardest, and told FOX Sports NEXT that Kentucky, Syracuse and UConn are three others that have done so more recently. He'll visit Gonzaga this weekend, which will be a chance for the Zags to impress Perkins.

In this story today by Eric Bossi of Rivals.com, Perkins indicates that he's not in any rush to make a decision and plans to narrow down his options in August. Why is that a big deal? For this reason: We have to believe that the more drawn out this recruitment becomes, the more likely Perkins ends up playing for a school on the east coast like Kentucky. If Perkins was more interested in committing sooner than later, he'd probably be more inclined to pick one of these west coast schools like UCLA, Gonzaga or USC.

Oregonzagnut
06-05-2013, 08:32 PM
Bottom line is that the program needs a deep run sooner than later since it affecting the program more and more.

I agree, but I think the effect is mostly in our heads. Like an asterisk to highlight the only blemish that we and the media can come up with against Gonzaga.

Losing to a hot Wichita St team is better than what happened to St Marys though. Gonzaga and Few still have their reputation and integrity. That counts a lot when recruits choose. Losing in the dance too early is minuscule in comparison to how often 275 other schools get in.

However, ask Jim Kelly and the Buffalo Bills if going all the way then failing on the biggest stage EVERY single time has an effect. It does. What that effect is I am not sure, but when opportunity knocks you better seize it. It may not ever come again.

cjm720
06-06-2013, 07:55 AM
Wednesday, June 5, 2013
UCLA, Gonzaga on top for Perkins?
By Joe Kaiser


Do west coast powers UCLA and Gonzaga have the best chance at rising 2014 point guard Josh Perkins (Denver, Col./Huntington Prep)? Or will Perkins' recent move to Huntington Prep for his senior season change things? Those are some of the big questions in what's sure to be a big-time recruiting battle this summer.

The 6-foot-3 point guard visited UCLA over the weekend, and he tells Lindsey Thiry of FOX Sports NEXT that he and new Bruins coach Steve Alford have a tight relationship. In fact, Perkins' first official visit was to New Mexico when Alford was there, so this could very well be a big advantage for the Pac-12 school.

Perkins lists UCLA, USC, Gonzaga and Minnesota as the schools that have recruited him the hardest, and told FOX Sports NEXT that Kentucky, Syracuse and UConn are three others that have done so more recently. He'll visit Gonzaga this weekend, which will be a chance for the Zags to impress Perkins.

In this story today by Eric Bossi of Rivals.com, Perkins indicates that he's not in any rush to make a decision and plans to narrow down his options in August. Why is that a big deal? For this reason: We have to believe that the more drawn out this recruitment becomes, the more likely Perkins ends up playing for a school on the east coast like Kentucky. If Perkins was more interested in committing sooner than later, he'd probably be more inclined to pick one of these west coast schools like UCLA, Gonzaga or USC.

The author needs a geography lesson LOL/WTF

cjm720
06-06-2013, 07:57 AM
Bottom line is that the program needs a deep run sooner than later since it affecting the program more and more.

Well off the heels of a couple earlier exits than we'd all like we were able to get to the #1 ranking in all of college, had a concensus all-american, and are brining in recruits that we couldn't have dreamed up just a few years ago.

I cannot comprehend how some people are down on this program right now. EVERYTHING SCREAMS THAT WE'RE TRENDING UP.

ZagLawGrad
06-06-2013, 08:36 AM
Well off the heels of a couple earlier exits than we'd all like we were able to get to the #1 ranking in all of college, had a concensus all-american, and are brining in recruits that we couldn't have dreamed up just a few years ago.

I cannot comprehend how some people are down on this program right now. EVERYTHING SCREAMS THAT WE'RE TRENDING UP.

Only a "couple of earlier exits"?

The sky's not falling, but the program is not showing the kind of March results that support the notion of "trending up".

Hey, we play in the WCC. Let's be content with where the chips fall. Right?

Malastein
06-06-2013, 09:01 AM
Hey, we play in the WCC. Let's be content with where the chips fall. Right?

How about switch conferences first?

BTB
06-06-2013, 09:18 AM
Well off the heels of a couple earlier exits than we'd all like we were able to get to the #1 ranking in all of college, had a concensus all-american, and are brining in recruits that we couldn't have dreamed up just a few years ago.

I cannot comprehend how some people are down on this program right now. EVERYTHING SCREAMS THAT WE'RE TRENDING UP.

Completely agree. The program is definitely trending up. It may not have shown, but I firmly believe our teams have been steadily getting better and better throughout the years. It's evidenced by the type of recruits we are talking about right now.

MDABE80
06-06-2013, 09:35 AM
Mal is very very correct. We need a deep, highly publicized run.

Oregonzagnut
06-06-2013, 09:41 AM
The sky's not falling, but the program is not showing the kind of March results that support the notion of "trending up".

On its face, I agree ZLG, but IMO, the type of trending we do is slow and constant. It's a real trend,. Not a flash in the pan. It's committed to the daily grind, the consistent hard work and ethical character of everyone involved. When we have been work haring and doing things the right way, those who tried short cuts are usually disappointed. (RB?)

My analogy: Say I got laid off from my job. Clearly not a sign of me trending up, in fact it was devastating. But I did things the right way, and I saved every dime I could and invested. Although I may not have a job, I have ZERO debt, I can travel the world and my resume and job experience will insure I can get another job if I want. MAYBE BETTER!

Am I trending up? Yes, I was trending up all along and my positive hope and hard work means no matter how far I get knocked down, I am ALWAYS TRENDING UP!! When you try your God's honest best, you NEVER trend down.

But yes Malastein and Abe..... we still need a deep run in order to put the cherry on top. 100% agree. That does not mean we do not still have a big ice cream sundae sitting in front of us!

75Zag
06-06-2013, 11:59 AM
I celebrate GU and its basketball team, but the comments re GU "trending up" leave me puzzled. As well educated college types, I assume we can all take a piece of graph paper and plot NCAA wins on the vertical axis (64 = made the tournament, then in ascending order, 32, 16, 8, 4, 2, and NC). On the horizontal axis moving from the left to the right we can then plot calendar years from 1999 to the present. We can then enter GU's final position in each of the past 13 or 14 NCAA tournaments and then connect the dots in the field to form a line. If the line that results from your efforts is "trending up", you must be using different graph paper than I am.

This is not to say I don't love the Bulldogs. But as they said in that silly movie with the shoplifting actress, "Reality Bites".

Go Bulldogs!

Oregonzagnut
06-06-2013, 01:12 PM
I celebrate GU and its basketball team, but the comments re GU "trending up" leave me puzzled. As well educated college types, I assume we can all take a piece of graph paper and plot NCAA wins on the vertical axis (64 = made the tournament, then in ascending order, 32, 16, 8, 4, 2, and NC). On the horizontal axis moving from the left to the right we can then plot calendar years from 1999 to the present. We can then enter GU's final position in each of the past 13 or 14 NCAA tournaments and then connect the dots in the field to form a line. If the line that results from your efforts is "trending up", you must be using different graph paper than I am.

Then as a well educated college type you will see that you cannot ONLY use NCAA tourney wins as the only variable or measurement to judge an entire program. If you do that then we are not trending up, we are perfectly flat lined for 4 straight years. 4-4 in the tournament A collegiate team and their education, development, and # of wins in a season and career matter in the equation too.

You cannot just focus on one variable. IMO.

Perkins and almost everyone else will see that.

What if we trended ticket cost, basketball revenue, facility and staff expenditures, and coach salary? To plot that graph, you'd have to apply post season wins equally weighted with the other variables, and average in all the tell tale signs of a growing program, you will see Gonzaga is trending up even with a couple tell tale signs that we are trending down. Way more ups than downs.

MDABE80
06-06-2013, 01:47 PM
excuses.

reasons!

75Zag
06-06-2013, 02:15 PM
I like the idea that single variables should not be used to determine trends. The Lovely Mrs. '75 was whining at me just this morning to point out that my weight has been trending relentlessly upward for the past 3 - 4 years. But perhaps scale figures alone should not be used to calculate my weight trend, just as NCAA victories alone should not be used to calculate GU's success. I hope to successfully argue to Mrs. '75 that personality, coaching, life values, etc. should all be taken into account in determining the "trend" of my weight, and that in fact - and notwithstanding the scale - my weight is actually "trending down". If Mrs. '75 buys into that argument, I will be more willing to buy into the argument that NCAA victories don't matter and that GU is in fact "trending up".

I am not hopeful on either account, but I will let you know how it works out.

Time for my 3:00 pm sandwich and beer.

Go Bulldogs!

BTB
06-06-2013, 02:22 PM
I like the idea that single variables should not be used to determine trends. The Lovely Mrs. '75 was whining at me just this morning to point out that my weight has been trending relentlessly upward for the past 3 - 4 years. But perhaps scale figures alone should not be used to calculate my weight trend, just as NCAA victories alone should not be used to calculate GU's success. I hope to successfully argue to Mrs. '75 that personality, coaching, life values, etc. should all be taken into account in determining the "trend" of my weight, and that in fact - and notwithstanding the scale - my weight is actually "trending down". If Mrs. '75 buys into that argument, I will be more willing to buy into the argument that NCAA victories don't matter and that GU is in fact "trending up".

I am not hopeful on either account, but I will let you know how it works out.

Time for my 3:00 pm sandwich and beer.

Go Bulldogs!

That argument doesn't make sense. The factor of gaining weight is similar to the factor of not winning NCAA games. If you factor in personality, life values, and that sort of thing then you are looking at all of the factors and describing how you are AS A WHOLE. So you, as a whole, could be making improvements to yourself even though you are gaining weight similar to how the Zags could be improving as a program despite losing NCAA games. The weight gain and the NCAA tourney games are both just specific pieces of the whole puzzle.

75Zag
06-06-2013, 03:04 PM
That argument doesn't make sense. The factor of gaining weight is similar to the factor of not winning NCAA games. If you factor in personality, life values, and that sort of thing then you are looking at all of the factors and describing how you are AS A WHOLE. So you, as a whole, could be making improvements to yourself even though you are gaining weight similar to how the Zags could be improving as a program despite losing NCAA games. The weight gain and the NCAA tourney games are both just specific pieces of the whole puzzle.

BTB, I think I would like to hire you to argue with my wife. I have been practicing law for 35 years but I am - so far - unable to get her to buy into the "WHOLE PACKAGE" argument, particularly as it relates to my weight when it comes time for me to buy my latest XXXL GU gear. If you can get her to agree that my weight - despite actual scale numbers, is "trending downward", I will buy into your argument that GU basketball - despite actual recent NCAA losses - is "trending upward". And I might even throw in a trip to the Maui Classic.

Time for my 4:00 sandwich and beer.

Go Bulldogs!

sonuvazag
06-06-2013, 03:07 PM
The argument that increasing revenue/spending might weigh more heavily in the mind of a recruit than tournament wins has some merit. Who is Nike behind? Who has the best program perks?

Zagdawg
06-06-2013, 03:22 PM
Are you putting on muscle or just the other stuff......if it is just the other stuff, the wife might not be as excited about the weight gain.

There are many examples of gaining weight and looking good doing it as you add muscle mass-- vs gaining weight and not quite getting to the gym as much as you should.

I believe there are a number of Nike sponsored schools availalble (including Gonzaga).

Go Zags :)

maynard g krebs
06-06-2013, 03:35 PM
The Lovely Mrs. '75 was whining at me just this morning to point out that my weight has been trending relentlessly upward for the past 3 - 4 years.

Time for my 3:00 pm sandwich and beer.



For several days now, this thread has been trending relentlessly in the direction of tacos. It is getting very, very close to a mention of tacos now.

Whether this is an upward trend or a downward trend is probably a matter of opinion.

75Zag
06-06-2013, 03:40 PM
Are you putting on muscle or just the other stuff......if it is just the other stuff, the wife might not be as excited about the weight gain.

Go Zags :)

I personally assume that my weight gain is due solely due to an increase in muscle mass. On the other hand, I am investigating a possible class action lawsuit against Fred Meyer because they don't sell pants above a 50 inch waist size.

Go Bulldogs!

sonuvazag
06-06-2013, 05:08 PM
For several days now, this thread has been trending relentlessly in the direction of tacos. It is getting very, very close to a mention of tacos now.

Whether this is an upward trend or a downward trend is probably a matter of opinion.
I've noticed when I appear it is usually three to five posts prior to tacos.

DixieZag
06-06-2013, 06:26 PM
I've noticed when I appear it is usually three to five posts prior to tacos.

Well, then time to trend upward. You are the winner.

Tacos.

Big, crunchy, shredded beef or - take your pick, chicken, pulled pork, fish with cabbage and white sauce - halibut at market price available only in season or vegetarian but, once you cross the taco line, just give it up on vegetarian - tacos!

Guacamole is extra - ordinarily a BCS thing but if one is truly interested in being a player in the taco world, we'll throw it in with a Nike subsidy.

Do we go with red or green salsa?

sittingon50
06-06-2013, 06:43 PM
'75's weight gain is directly related to tacos consumed!

(and perhaps a little beer, which he owned up to).

ZagNative
06-06-2013, 06:49 PM
This thread just keeps getting dumber and dumber and less and less worth opening ....

NotoriousZ
06-07-2013, 06:48 AM
This thread just keeps getting dumber and dumber and less and less worth opening ....

I tried to sift through this Jazz-downer to see if he's visiting tomorrow. I think I read it here sometime last week, but I couldn't make it through the whole thread again. Hope he's visiting and isn't reading this pile.