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raise the zag
05-26-2013, 06:56 AM
Perkins is interested in declaring early for the NBA.

He's eluded to this from the beginning of his recruitment and his skill set is Jason Kidd-esque from what I'm hearing, thus a very real possibility he's a "one-n-done" type of player as an incoming PG.

My question is how do we recruit this type of player for 2014 given the fact Pangos and Bell will both be heading into their FINAL season during Perkins' hopeful ONE-AND-DONE season? How does this work out?

Sounds ridiculous to assume he's a 1 yr player(don't tell him that), I know, yet UCLA can offer him the reigns, the keys, the opportunity for a one-year stint given their guards are either graduated and/or not yet recruited for 2014.

Not us.

We have Pangos and Bell running the show as 1A & 1B in 2014.

Will Perkins embrace the challenge of unseating the two Senior, 4-year starting guards? Or will be take a backseat to their experience, past accomplishment, etc to "learn from them" for a year and be more patient than he most likely is willing to be...

I dunno. I'm confused.

Perkins is the type of prospect that starts from Day 1 -- whether that is Duke, Kentucky, UCLA, and especially Gonzaga.

Pangos and Bell are the incumbents in 2014.

We want Josh Perkins as a Zag, but isn't the writing on the wall for him?

How do we recruit over/through this little obstacle? Just curious...

thespywhozaggedme
05-26-2013, 06:58 AM
Perkins is interested in declaring early for the NBA.

He's eluded to this from the beginning of his recruitment and his skill set is Jason Kidd-esque from what I'm hearing, thus a very real possibility he's a "one-n-done" type of player as an incoming PG.

My question is how do we recruit this type of player for 2014 given the fact Pangos and Bell will both be heading into their FINAL season during Perkins' hopeful ONE-AND-DONE season? How does this work out?

Sounds ridiculous to assume he's a 1 yr player(don't tell him that), I know, yet UCLA can offer him the reigns, the keys, the opportunity for a one-year stint given their guards are either graduated and/or not yet recruited for 2014.

We have Pangos and Bell running the show as 1A & 1B.

Will Perkins embrace the challenge of unseating the two Senior, 4-year starting guards? Or will be take a backseat to their experience, past accomplishment, etc to "learn from them" for a year and be more patient than he most likely is willing to be...

I dunno. I'm confused.

Perkins is the type of prospect that starts from Day 1 -- whether that is Duke, Kentucky, UCLA, and especially Gonzaga.

Pangos and Bell are the incumbents in 2014.

We want Josh Perkins as a Zag, but isn't the writing on the wall for him?

How do we recruit over/through this little obstacle? Just curious...

Zach Lavine is an incoming freshman this year that plays the same position as JP.

raise the zag
05-26-2013, 07:05 AM
Zach Lavine is an incoming freshman this year that plays the same position as JP.

Not entirely accurate, as Zach Lavine projects as a Shooting Guard at NCAA/NBA level. His game, shooting, and attributes are screaming off-guard.

Most have said he's going to play SG at UCLA. Even his updated Scouts and Rivals page list him as a "shooting" guard now: http://rivals.yahoo.com/basketballrecruiting/basketball/recruiting/player-Zach-LaVine-128891

Heck, If anything, this only helps sell the PG spot to Josh Perkins. You can take the lead guard and have another Top-45 recruit playing along side you.

This still doesn't answer the question how we can get Perkins to sign the deal when Pangos and Bell have BOTH guard spots lined up in front of him. Its their 'ride into the sunset' season for these guys.

What I'm saying is, Perkins ain't waiting around a year to play...if we fool ourselves into believing that, we're toast.

Perkins is a starting PG from the get-go, in 2014. We have a log-jam with 4 yr starters and Coach Few's loyalty to Seniors.

I'm just curious how we can out-sell UCLA, soon-to-be Duke, et al, when we are the only ones without a spot for the moment?

jazzdelmar
05-26-2013, 07:06 AM
If Perkins sees himself as a one and done then he doesn't see GU guards as serious comp for playing time. But he's not a one and done and he's not coming to GU, both pipe dreams IMO.

Great point, Raise. How did that get past all us experts on the board?

Goshzagit
05-26-2013, 07:11 AM
If Perkins sees himself as a one and done then he doesn't see GU guards as serious comp for playing time. But he's not a one and done and he's not coming to GU, both pipe dreams IMO.

+1

ZagsZombieNation
05-26-2013, 08:51 AM
Pangos, Bell, and Coleman will all be senior starting guards during the 2014-15 season. If Perkins were to come to GU, during his freshman season he would probably take Stockton's minutes. What that means is that I don't think Perkins would play more than 15-20 minutes his freshman season if he was a Zag.

thespywhozaggedme
05-26-2013, 08:58 AM
Pangos, Bell, and Coleman will all be senior starting guards during the 2014-15 season. If Perkins were to come to GU, during his freshman season he would probably take Stockton's minutes. What that means is that I don't think Perkins would play more than 15-20 minutes his freshman season if he was a Zag.

If Perkins is the superior player why would inferior players start over him; regardless of their class? :confused:

milehighzagfan
05-26-2013, 09:16 AM
Josh Perkins was not the number 1 point guard in Colorado. Dominique Collier (also a junior) was voted player of the year. Disappointed that he is transferring from Regis Jesuit.
When I read the news I felt, he is gone. Bad news all the way around.

jazzdelmar
05-26-2013, 09:17 AM
If Perkins is the superior player why would inferior players start over him; regardless of their class? :confused:

Spy, agree and if he's as good as he and his handlers think he is then he would. But that would produce some real team unease, especially with four year players. A bad brew. Irregardless (sic), its a moot point.

Demetri Awesome
05-26-2013, 09:41 AM
I live in Denver have seen this kid play... With that said I would rather have the staff pursue another guard. Just because you pass the ball and spin 360 degrees doesn't make you a superb passer IMO.

cggonzaga
05-26-2013, 09:43 AM
I'm not arguing the point that he probably isn't coming here but where was it ever said he's a one and done? Who's the last PG to go one and done? It doesn't happen often at that position. He could come backup our seniors then blow up his sophomore season like Trey Burke.

jazzdelmar
05-26-2013, 09:57 AM
I'm not arguing the point that he probably isn't coming here but where was it ever said he's a one and done? Who's the last PG to go one and done? It doesn't happen often at that position. He could come backup our seniors then blow up his sophomore season like Trey Burke.

Jerryd Bayless comes to mind. Will Avery of Duke, a bust.

DixieZag
05-26-2013, 10:40 AM
I don't know if Perkins is a one and done or not. Don't know enough about the game. As for the line-up, Few has shown that he is more than willing to play a three guard line-up. His past loyalty to seniors is a legitimate concern, not insurmountable but troubling knowing the past.

Few was recruiting Perkins early. Perkins has shown strong interest and he maintains that interest as evident in making us one of his "sure" visits, likely coming here second after originally wanting to come first (SSF "timing" issue, but ????) Assessing Gonzaga's chances as a "pipe dream" is unfair to pipe dreams. It paints Few as being on some quixotic pursuit of a magic dragon while also provoking the "geniuses" on this board who continue to follow the situation with both realism and hope

I am no genius and I know that if the question is Gonzaga or "the field" - the field has a better than 50-50 shot. I guess there is a ripe opportunity to say "I told you so" and get a snide in on Few and the board.

The marriage of a great coach like Alford and a great school like UCLA may win out. Few can't control how Perkins sees other opportunities. That reality has been discussed and accepted by just about everyone here. Perhaps Few's early work on Perkins will win out as it did with Karno over Cal and Duke. So, the choice for the staff (and the board) is to accept the reality that Perkins will be aggressively recruited, making every reasonable effort to continue our pursuit with self-confident hope or go scout the GSL and sulk.

The real danger is not that Perkins will turn down GU. The danger is that many will attach unrealistic meaning to his decision. If he accepts, it doesn't mean we have gotten over the hump as a "blue-blood" - turning us down doesn't mean chickens are coming home.

jazzdelmar
05-26-2013, 10:46 AM
I don't know if Perkins is a one and done or not. Don't know enough about the game. As for the line-up, Few has shown that he is more than willing to play a three guard line-up. His past loyalty to seniors is a legitimate concern, not insurmountable but troubling knowing the past.

Few was recruiting Perkins early. Perkins has shown strong interest and he maintains that interest as evident in making us one of his "sure" visits, likely coming here second after originally wanting to come first (SSF "timing" issue, but ????) Assessing Gonzaga's chances as a "pipe dream" is unfair to pipe dreams. It paints Few as being on some quixotic pursuit of a magic dragon while also provoking the "geniuses" on this board who continue to follow the situation with both realism and hope

I am no genius and I know that if the question is Gonzaga or "the field" - the field has a better than 50-50 shot. I guess there is a ripe opportunity to say "I told you so" and get a snide in on Few and the board.

The marriage of a great coach like Alford and a great school like UCLA may win out. Few can't control how Perkins sees other opportunities. That reality has been discussed and accepted by just about everyone here. Perhaps Few's early work on Perkins will win out as it did with Karno over Cal and Duke. So, the choice for the staff (and the board) is to accept the reality that Perkins will be aggressively recruited, making every reasonable effort to continue our pursuit with self-confident hope or go scout the GSL and sulk.

The real danger is not that Perkins will turn down GU. The danger is that many will attach unrealistic meaning to his decision. If he accepts, it doesn't mean we have gotten over the hump as a "blue-blood" - turning us down doesn't mean chickens are coming home.


1. Pangos would be no ordinary senior. A high achieving four year starter, no Meech or Carter. No way he gets pushed aside for Josh.

2. You're right, "quixotic" is a much better word than pipe dream, more befitting a university steeped in the classics. That makes Tommy his Sancho Panza?

3. Chickens are already roosting, tyvm.

4. Alford is hardly a great coach. Few's vita puts his to shame. UCLA is poised to be great again but certainly isn't that now. Zona, Zags, UO, UNLV, SDSU are all better in the west.

5. Alford does seem to be targeting the type of kids the Zags would love to get, not like Howland who was pressured by the UCLA alum/boosters to go after me-firsts like Shabazz and Anderson.

BTB
05-26-2013, 11:03 AM
Who's the last PG to go one and done? It doesn't happen often at that position.

Since 2008:

Derrick Rose, Mike Conley, Jerryd Bayless, Jrue Holiday, Eric Bledsoe, Kyrie Irving, and Brandon Knight were all one and dones. I think Marcus Teague might have been as well.

I might be missing others, but either way it's not that uncommon to have 1 and done point guards.

jazzdelmar
05-26-2013, 11:17 AM
Since 2008:

Derrick Rose, Mike Conley, Jerryd Bayless, Jrue Holiday, Eric Bledsoe, Kyrie Irving, and Brandon Knight were all one and dones. I think Marcus Teague might have been as well.

I might be missing others, but either way it's not that uncommon to have 1 and done point guards.

nice haul, BTB. thanks. you forgot brandon jennings too...altho he played a yr in italy. so it's common, not at all rare. still, josh has a way to go before he gets there, imo.

UberZagFan
05-26-2013, 12:11 PM
Since 2008:

Derrick Rose, Mike Conley, Jerryd Bayless, Jrue Holiday, Eric Bledsoe, Kyrie Irving, and Brandon Knight were all one and dones. I think Marcus Teague might have been as well.

I might be missing others, but either way it's not that uncommon to have 1 and done point guards.

John Wall and Tyreke Evans are a couple more. And not that it matters but Conley Jr came out in '07 along with Oden. But yes, agree that it is not that uncommon.

It is pretty doubtful that Perkins is in the same class as those above. All those players were top-10 types coming out of high school -- not "top50" types. Shoot, there was talk that Wall could enter the '09 draft right out of high school (because he was 19/5th year senior) and if he did he would be the #1 pick. Kyrie was ranked top5 by every service and was also a player that could have went straight to the league.

This is a non-issue for recruiting Perkins. If GU doesn't land him, it most likely will have nothing to do with his thoughts on one-and-done.

Malastein
05-26-2013, 12:30 PM
I can't imagine him having much difficulty finding playing time with the current crop of guards. I just don't see any guys who really do everything well enough that a more complete guy like Perkins wouldn't be a featured guy.

MDABE80
05-26-2013, 12:59 PM
All those dazzling passes and no one to pass to.......We'd have 4 strong guards........and some slide over to be a wing. Unless Few getsbusier with some good bigs, it's trouble ahead.
Gary and Kevin don't NEED to be point guards. Both can play 2. ie a shooting guard....and slide over. This kid would get plenty of court time.
With Few's system though, it might be a tough time for a frosh (no matter how talented) to function well. None of it matters though unless we get some deft athletes underneath. This will be a problem for the next few years if we don't find kind a lot better than what we have now down low. A LOT better.

DixieZag
05-26-2013, 01:06 PM
Jazz Alford is a great coach, but I agree that I probably was giving holding up a little above what his accomplishments merited. I think I agree that he is not cut above the ones you listed, and thinking again about it, he does own that spectacular failure at Indiana. He just was able to establish a good personal relationship with Perkins while selling New Mexico, now he is selling UCLA - fairly potent pitch. It is the fact that I have learned a lot from your POV that makes your current MO so inexplicable.

I agree about Pangos, too. I wrote that it was a problem. Concerning. I do think that there might be hope in that Few relegated Pangos to SG to get David minutes - right or wrong, it seems like there is room on the court for Pangos and Perkins. It's a problem, though.

Chickens roosting, pipe dreams, Few looks ridiculous even thinking about Perkins, it's all the same, always is, just the latest vague comment alluding to some shameful or depressing characteristic of the program that we apologists are blind to.

Perkins as pipe dream? Should we never have recruited him? Or pulled out when others did? Ever heard the old saying that when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail? Seems like the only view you have is that Few/program are a sham (or something) and you hammer everything about it.

It's still worth reading your stuff, you do know a lot of BB and I appreciate that - it's the only reason I keep tilting at this windmill. But slogging through the inevitable agenda driven stuff? I would rather read a thread started by you entitled "Reasons to see nothing positive about GU basketball"

jazzdelmar
05-26-2013, 03:14 PM
Dix, I proffer plenty of GU positives. Look again. I appreciate your plaudits. I have no agenda expect to see Few work a little harder on the recruiting trail. I think he's rested on his oars of late and relied too much on Tom plucking winners from across the pond. Working harder means being more targeted and reasonable. At this point how can you hold the idea of recruiting the two NW projects in your mind at the same time as chasing someone like Perkins. Seems scatter shot to me, but that's my opinion.

cggonzaga
05-26-2013, 03:23 PM
Derrick Rose, Mike Conley, Jerryd Bayless, Jrue Holiday, Eric Bledsoe, Kyrie Irving, and Brandon Knight were all one and dones. I think Marcus Teague might have been as well.

Fair enough. Even so that is still only 7 guys in 5 years. Perkins doesn't strike me as one and done type and I still haven't seen where he said he was.

Malastein
05-26-2013, 04:22 PM
Neither Bell nor Pangos has impressed me as point guards. They are both much better as shooting guards. The main reason I view this back court as much more top 40 in the nation is that I don't see either guy doing much to create offense for the rest of the team. Granted, they do get some assists within the system; however, I'd argue a good portion of those arise from them being primary ball handlers.

The offense had a bad tendency to stall when those guys couldn't be counted on as shooters, and that's a function of neither guy being adept at drive and dishing. That's the biggest reason why Stockton makes the offense look that much better when he enters the game. If I were a top level point guard, neither guy would deter me from choosing Gonzaga.

That said, I hope both guys prove me as wrong as I was about Olynyk. The strides that guy made developing himself into a post player were incredible.

DixieZag
05-26-2013, 05:01 PM
Dix, I proffer plenty of GU positives. Look again. I appreciate your plaudits. I have no agenda expect to see Few work a little harder on the recruiting trail. I think he's rested on his oars of late and relied too much on Tom plucking winners from across the pond. Working harder means being more targeted and reasonable. At this point how can you hold the idea of recruiting the two NW projects in your mind at the same time as chasing someone like Perkins. Seems scatter shot to me, but that's my opinion.

I can forgive the two NW bigs as space eating serviceable players - we have been burned time and again lately with PT jamming up resulting in guys leaving. Someone here said it best when they said that you need bench players. Seems like we lost Spangler and almost loss KO, in part b/c of PT issues. Still, I agree that at this point one can see that it was a mistake to not be more aggressive for 2013.

Perkins fits right in Few's mold in terms of following up one franchise guard with another one. That seems self-evident. He evaluates talent early, better than most and he gets on them early, it takes hard work and he has been rewarded time and again. He may be rewarded again, but if not, it is likely that Perkins exploded more than even Few projected and not b/c he is resting on anything or being scattershot.

I don't know how you tell someone they are resting on their laurels coming off the best season they have ever had and a one seed. Resting on your laurels would be someone who holds off on Perkins and company, waiting for a frosh the next year. Resting on his laurels would be to not stay strong on Karno once others became interested - and thank God he was successful in that, b/c imagine not having Karno going into next year.

Maybe you are right, but what I see is huge frustration over the lack of progress in play late in the year (very real and deserving scrutiny) and allowing that to color the ebb and flow of developments that all programs go through.

maynard g krebs
05-26-2013, 06:48 PM
ESPN has him at 41, Rivals at 42, Scout at 26 but #8 pg.

Doubt there have been many guys w/ av ranking mid-hi 30s going into their sr years that have been one and done.

Thread premise seems unrealistic unless he's really blown up on the spring AAU circuit and the rankings haven't been updated. One and dones are generally top 10 in class or close.

Probably true, though, that he'll look for a place he can start as a fr. as Pangos and Bell did.

Idahomie
05-26-2013, 08:09 PM
Last I checked we do have arguably one of the greatest NBA Point Guards as a recruiting tool. So we've got that going for us....which is nice.

If Perkins wants to get to the NBA as a point guard, we have one hell of a mentor. Just saying.

jazzdelmar
05-26-2013, 09:05 PM
Last I checked we do have arguably one of the greatest NBA Point Guards as a recruiting tool. So we've got that going for us....which is nice.

If Perkins wants to get to the NBA as a point guard, we have one hell of a mentor. Just saying.

Non factor. None at all. Russell Westbrook would be, JS is a dinosaur to today's kids. Once they get to GU, another story.

willandi
05-26-2013, 09:25 PM
Non factor. None at all. Russell Westbrook would be, JS is a dinosaur to today's kids. Once they get to GU, another story.

If kids that dream of playing in the NBA don't have any knowledge of the NBA record book, they probably aren't Gonzaga material anyway.

btzag
05-26-2013, 09:35 PM
jazz is right on this one. It's like saying that the uniforms that the Ducks employ in football are ugly and why would that ever matter to a kid? You've got to evolve with the times while also staying true to your tradition and morals.

DixieZag
05-26-2013, 09:42 PM
If kids that dream of playing in the NBA don't have any knowledge of the NBA record book, they probably aren't Gonzaga material anyway.

Kids that realize the opportunity and appreciate it sure can benefit. Courtney Vandersloot worked with him a lot and would mention how much it helped. Probably right that most kids today wouldn't see it or put the work in. The right one - especially a pass first guy, could sure gain a lot. Won't hurt to mention it a lot.

cjm720
05-27-2013, 07:16 AM
Got a good feeling that Perkins will be a Zag.

jazzdelmar
05-27-2013, 08:17 AM
Got a good feeling that Perkins will be a Zag.

Sigh.

GUZag08
05-27-2013, 10:59 AM
Sigh.

jeez dude let him be optimistic