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tyra
05-18-2013, 07:58 AM
I have a hard time seeing past Kevin and Gary as locks. I am not even sure Sam starts over Karn depending on the latter's development. What do the experts see?

GorgeZag
05-18-2013, 08:02 AM
Karno
Sam
Coleman
Bell
Pangos

Unless someone gets hurt, that's it.

Or go 4 guard by taking out Sam and put in Kyle or Baby Stockton.

Goshzagit
05-18-2013, 08:14 AM
well, based on Coach Few's "crunch time" backcourt last season, it will most assuredly be:

Pangos
Stockton
Bell
[Dower]
[Karno]

Few clearly feels most comfortable with those 3 running the show: "Small Guards, Big World".

As a fan, I'd go with Gorge's lineup, but alas, I'm just a fan...

Gerard Coleman coming off the bench to relieve Bell or Stockton. Same applies to Dranginis. Angel Nunez is not a 4, but may be forced into the PF position, along the lines of Daye, when he's eligible.

Honestly, no a single player/body to back-up either Dower or PK at this point in time. Edwards and Meikle simply don't count right now. Danger zone. Tough to get away with "overlooking" (throw away?) an entire recruiting class aka 2013, just b/c you didn't expect a player to transfer and/or declare. TELL THAT EXCUSE TO ANY OTHER TOP-20 PROGRAM OUT THERE. Give me a break. Anyway, I digress, I'll stick with the Pangos, Stocks, Bell lineup and that is no joke.

GorgeZag
05-18-2013, 08:35 AM
well, based on Coach Few's "crunch time" backcourt last season, it will most assuredly be:

Pangos
Stockton
Bell
[Dower]
[Karno]

Few clearly feels most comfortable with those 3 running the show: "Small Guards, Big World".

As a fan, I'd go with Gorge's lineup, but alas, I'm just a fan...

Gerard Coleman coming off the bench to relieve Bell or Stockton. Same applies to Dranginis. Angel Nunez is not a 4, but may be forced into the PF position, along the lines of Daye, when he's eligible.

Honestly, no a single player/body to back-up either Dower or PK at this point in time. Edwards and Meikle simply don't count right now. Danger zone. Tough to get away with "overlooking" (throw away?) an entire recruiting class aka 2013, just b/c you didn't expect a player to transfer and/or declare. TELL THAT EXCUSE TO ANY OTHER TOP-20 PROGRAM OUT THERE. Give me a break. Anyway, I digress, I'll stick with the Pangos, Stocks, Bell lineup and that is no joke.



I'm hoping to all hope that Coleman can be that starting 3rd guard. Baby Stockton and Kyle off the bench. Depending on what's behind door number 4, looks like Drew, Nunez, and the 2 frosh backing up Karno and Sam.

It is truly amazing that we don't have a warm body yet to back up the bigs. Hopefully the staff can at least get a 4 point 5 rebound type player.

mgadfly
05-18-2013, 08:45 AM
I've lost track of who is still with us ...

G Pangos
G Bell
G Stockton
G Coleman
G/F Dranginis
F Barham
F/PF Nunez
F/PF Meikle
PF Dower
C Karnowski
C Edwards





Starting:
PG Pangos
SG Bell
SF Dranginis
PF Dower
C Karnowski

Finishing:
PG Stockton
SG Pangos
SG Bell
PF Dower
C Karnowski

6th Man: Stockton
7th Man: Nunez
8th Man: Coleman

Nunez will have to play minutes at PF (Tommy Loyd said in the article when he signed that he is a "3" but could play any position except center). Like we did with Pendergraft/Downs in 2007, we will need Nunez to be versatile for us. So he will get starter's minutes.

Stockton has been getting minutes for so long now that I'm not picking Coleman to take them from him at this point. Coleman could beat out Drangs, and then flip those two around with Coleman starting and Drangs playing the utility guard position and playing the 1, 2, and 3 at times. There are 200 minutes in a game and I'd bet it breaks down something like this:

80 minutes for Bigs:
Karnowski - 25
Dower - 28
Nunez - 24
Edwards - 3 (if we get a JC for depth, redshirt Edwards and move Nunez to SF more often taking minutes from Barham).

120 minutes for Smalls:
Pangos - 33
Bell - 30
Stockton - 16
Dranginis - 16
Coleman -15
Barham - 7
Nunez - 3 (total 27)

My problem is that I think Barham and Dranginis both have the potential to be very good players in the Zags system. If they get an opportunity (due to injury or giving them a shot) then I could see them getting a lot more minutes. The problem with Coleman is he looks like a very poor shooting and inefficient player and I can't remember Few tolerating that (Meech, Vilarino, Will Foster, Gurganious and even PMAC) with the exception of Stockton.

I hope Coleman isn't a square peg round hole situation.

DixieZag
05-18-2013, 09:55 AM
That's a great post mgadfly.

I am not so convinced that Stockton will get major minutes next year. His minutes this year came from his ability to feed the post which was the focus of our offense.

If, next year, we have to be more of a 3 ball oriented team, there isn't a lot of room out there for a guy that is an average shooter and has trouble getting his shot up.

I agree that one of the guys like Draings or Barham really steps up - would be a good sign.

BobZag
05-18-2013, 10:03 AM
Pangos
Bell
Coleman
Barham
Dower

Bench: Stockton, Dranginis, Karno, Nunez, I forget who else....

thespywhozaggedme
05-18-2013, 10:09 AM
Pangos
Bell
Coleman
Barham
Dower

Bench: Stockton, Dranginis, Karno, Nunez, I forget who else....

GC at the 3, Barham at the 4 and Sammy D at the five? That lineup gives new meaning to the term "small ball".

VaBeachZAG
05-18-2013, 10:14 AM
Maybe Barham could turn into a somewhat serviceable 4 if he can bulk up a bit (hit the weights hard and down a lot of Pargo burgers).

GeorgiaZagFan
05-18-2013, 10:32 AM
I saw glimpses of Hart in Barham's play during the 2nd half of the season. I believe he will step in for at least 15-20 minutes per game

CaliforniaZaggin'
05-18-2013, 10:48 AM
I'm comfortable with Barham at the 4 when PK is at the 5. It would be like the old Houston Rockets team from the 90s when Hakeem was in the post and Horry was draining threes.

Bogozags
05-18-2013, 11:37 AM
Pangos
Bell
Coleman
Barham
Dower

Bench: Stockton, Dranginis, Karno, Nunez, I forget who else....

Once again, BZ's wisdom prevails as this will be our "beginning" starting lineup barring injuries of course and the development of Karno and Nunez...

zag67
05-18-2013, 12:26 PM
I also like BZ post. I think that Dower may start and have PK in reserve. Or start both and whoever gets the first foul will be replaced by Barham. This is because we need to be sure that we have our bigs not getting into major foul trouble or getting tired. Then when Nunez is able to play, it might be either one depending on the matchup. I think Colman starts and will have Dranginnis as his backup. He will also work with Stockton on backing up the 1/2. We can play against most teams with these lineups. We need to make sure that our guards defend bigger players and box out for rebounds.

ZagFanInNC
05-18-2013, 01:09 PM
GC at the 3, Barham at the 4 and Sammy D at the five? That lineup gives new meaning to the term "small ball".

I disagree, we have been spoiled with all of the size on our front lines. Last year We had a bigger front line than a lot of NBA teams.

I don't think playing "small" will hurt us as long as Sam and PK share the 5 with some spot 4 time for Sam. They are really going to have to step up to reach our full potential.

ZagFanInNC
05-18-2013, 01:10 PM
Maybe Barham could turn into a somewhat serviceable 4 if he can bulk up a bit (hit the weights hard and down a lot of Pargo burgers).

Or Tacos...

maynard g krebs
05-18-2013, 01:28 PM
Karnowski is the only 5 on the current roster, Dower the only 4, so those 2 start barring a major late signing.

Bell and Pangos are automatic.

I doubt the small lineup was by preference, more by default; Edi mistake prone, Dranginis not ready, Hart and Barham both with limitations. Best offensive team last year was w/ Bell/KP at wings and DS feeding post. The price for that was on the other end, of course.

Seems like the wing who averaged 13/5 in the Big East has to be the 5th starter, given the fact that he's had a year to learn what's going on.

I expect less of the small lineup next year than the past one.

Fonebone
05-18-2013, 01:28 PM
In the intersquad game no one could stop Colman. He went to the basket at will. I think he starts. How much does a player like that help Kevin and Gary?

bartruff1
05-18-2013, 01:39 PM
Once again, BZ's wisdom prevails as this will be our "beginning" starting lineup barring injuries of course and the development of Karno and Nunez........yup

Martin Centre Mad Man
05-18-2013, 03:46 PM
Pangos
Bell
Coleman
Barham
Dower

Bench: Stockton, Dranginis, Karno, Nunez, I forget who else....

I think BZ's starting five are the players who will be on the floor at the most critical moment in the game. It is a smaller lineup, but all five of those guys can step out and knock down jumpers. That should open up some lanes for Coleman to attack the basket. I worry about rebounding and defense if we go that small, however.

I don't think we can afford to start Karno and Dower at the same time. We're too thin along the front line to use both of them together for long stretches of any game. If they both get into foul trouble, we'll be looking for the tallest kid in the band to come down and play a few minutes at the 5 spot.

mgadfly
05-18-2013, 04:20 PM
Pangos
Bell
Coleman
Barham
Dower

Bench: Stockton, Dranginis, Karno, Nunez, I forget who else....

I don't think there is any way Few goes with that as the starting lineup. That would be his smallest starting lineup by a long shot. The only way that is the lineup is if we Barham on the rack and stretch him 3 inches and then stuff him full of 20 lbs of muscle. If Dower rebounded like Rodman and played amazing defense then I guess it would be possible, but to protect Barham in that lineup we would have to be in the 2-3 zone which would mean Dower would be the only big stopping the other team from tons of points off of offensive rebounds. Dower's rebounding doesn't make this a viable option. Karno came here to start, he'll get his chance.

C Dower 6'9"
PF Barham 6'6" (and not Charles Barkley 6'6", but 195 lbs)

The Few Years:
2013-
C Kelly Olynyk 7'0
PF Elias Harris 6'8 (but played a lot bigger)
Reserves: 6'9" 7'1"

2012:
C Sacre 7'0"
PF Harris 6'8"
Reserves: 6'9" 6'8"

2011:
C Sacre 7'0"
PF Harris 6'8"
Reserves: 6'9" 6'11"

2010:
C Sacre 7'0"
PF Harris 6'7"
Reserves: 6'10 7'5"

2009:
C Heytvelt 6'11" (after the injury to 7'0" Sacre)
PF Daye 6'11"
Reserves: 6'8" 6'6" 7'5"

2008:
C Heytvelt 6'11"
PF Daye 6'10"
Reserves: 6'9" 7'0"

2007:
C Heytvelt 6'11"
PF Mallon 6'9"
Reserves: 6'9" 6'8"

2006:
C Batista 6'9"
PF Mallon 6'9"
Reserves: 6'8" 6'6"

2005:
C Batista 6'9"
PF Turiaf 6'10"
Reserves: 6'9"

2004:
C Turiaf 6'10"
PF Violette 6'8"
Reserves: 6'9" 6'11"

2003:
C Turiaf 6'10
PF Violette 6'8
Reserves: 6'8, 6'11", 6'9

2002:
C Violette 6'8"
PF Gourde 6'8
Reserves: 6'9"

2001:
C Calvary 6'8"
PF Gourde 6'8"
Reserves: Violette 6'8"

2000:
C Dench 6'11
PF Calvary 6'8"
Reserves: 6'8"

75Zag
05-18-2013, 04:27 PM
I really like what I read and hear about Coleman. At 6'4" he won't be the biggest "3" in the WCC but he is said to have very long arms for his size and he looks to be a very effective and enthusiastic rebounder. If Pangos and Bell can cement the 1 and 2 and if Coleman can play the 3 as well as my tea leaves predict, I think GU will have lots of interesting options to try and fix the shortage of personnel at the 4 and 5.

Old link but perhaps worth re-reading during the summer slump.

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/story/2012-06-12/gerard-coleman-leaves-providence-for-gonzaga

And my hope is that this summer the Big Pole remembers this simple advice, which his Polish grandmother might have given him:

Salads, fruits, vegetables, lean meats : Tak
Sausages, pastries, hamburgers, (and tacos) Nie
Weight room: Tak
Video Games: Nie

Go Bulldogs!

hooter73
05-18-2013, 06:20 PM
Start of the year: pangos, bell, barham, dower, karno and pull wither of the two bigs at the first foul. I can see coleman getting the start early on instread od barham and maybe playing more minutes than bell if he doesn't get his stuff worked out. It'll be small ball but effective.

willandi
05-18-2013, 07:36 PM
Edwards at PG
Meikle at SG
Nunez at SF
Dower at PF
Special K at C

Silly, of course. There are three questions. Does Dower start at the 5 or the 4, with Special K at the 5?
If Dower and K start, is the three Draino or Coleman?
If Dower starts at the 5 is Barham the 4, at least until Nunez comes in?



Of course all this could change with a recruit, either JC, Euro Or D1 transfer.

SteelZag
05-18-2013, 08:40 PM
According to mgadfly if we were to start both PK and Dower we would have the tallest starting line-up of recent memory and if Meikle and Edwards don't redshirt our reserves would rank above most classes as far a height goes. I could be happy with those players.

Oregonzagnut
05-19-2013, 10:02 AM
I originally thought "how can we not start Karno, Dower, Bell and Pangos?" The major question for me was the 3 for Draino or Coleman.

But if Barham can play the 4, and if Few decides to not play Karno or Dower at the same time, we have a complete game option for a dominating center. If Karno and Dower are going to sub for each other, then IMO, we are weakest at the 4 spot.

My instinctual lineup was:

Karnowski
Dower
Coleman
Bell
Pangos

But I am liking BZ's take especially knowing that foul trouble is very real for both Karno and Dower. Both of them can get 3 fouls in the first half easy. So it may be wise to have Karno back up Dower (or vice versa) throughout the season. Not as dominating a lineup as it is a forgiving lineup. Plus giving Barham the starts early on like we did Edi will help him build his confidence.

The seniors should get some preference.

If Karno is what we thought, then he will start. If not, Dower has earned the start by default as senior and his decent post presence. IMO, Karno was a little less consistent than Dower last year so seniority may win out for Dower. But Dower really needs to get consistency at both Off and Def. He is either hit or miss and Dower needs to hit his first shot to get into the zone.

My new lineup according to info gleaned at GUBoards

Dower
Barham
Coleman
Bell
Pangos

For some reason, I am assuming Coleman will beat out Draino for the start, but that is only conjecture. For Coleman sitting on the bench the entire #1 season must have hurt. He will be ready to play IMO.

Anything can happen. Few is not done either. There are thousands of kids who would love to play at Gonzaga so I think we add in another PF and another SF.

SteelZag
05-19-2013, 10:48 AM
Playing Barham at the 4 wouldn't be bad. As mentioned by others he seemed to pick up some of MH's traits. If the Zags are getting blown away on the boards, they're just going to have to get more steals and fewer turnovers.

I'm OK with either Dower or PK starting. I would just like to see substitutions between the two be made on their performances. Couldn't agree more about Sam's first shot. If he misses, his confidence wanes. The easier his shot, if missed, seems to put him in a worse funk. However, if he does make his first few shots, I don't see any reason to pull him unless he is winded or in foul trouble. If not winded, ride him hard and put him away wet. Same goes for PK. In those instances they both need to be on the floor at the same time. The past indicates neither may be able to play more than twenty minutes anyway, but if they can, I would like to see them on the court at the same time.

zag67
05-19-2013, 11:19 AM
I also agree that I want to see Dower and PK on the court together. But I want it in the second half. I do not want to see both of them in foul trouble by half time. Therefore be more conservative playing both together in the first half.
I also think again that you might start PK, Dower, Coleman, Pangos and Bell. But then remove one of the bigs and bring in Barham early. Later you will add Nunez to the mix.

SteelZag
05-19-2013, 12:20 PM
I also agree that I want to see Dower and PK on the court together. But I want it in the second half. I do not want to see both of them in foul trouble by half time. Therefore be more conservative playing both together in the first half.
I also think again that you might start PK, Dower, Coleman, Pangos and Bell. But then remove one of the bigs and bring in Barham early. Later you will add Nunez to the mix.

+1 That sounds good.

bballbeachbum
05-19-2013, 12:26 PM
In the intersquad game no one could stop Colman. He went to the basket at will. I think he starts. How much does a player like that help Kevin and Gary?

right now, I think he starts too although it's May! and if he can get in the lane against opponents as well as you report he has here, he helps the whole team adjust to attacking the paint effectively in a different way in the post E/post KO landscape. If he can do the Dickie V special--drive, draw and dish--while finishing at the rim too, well that would be perfect

and zag67 makes sense to me, as usual


I also agree that I want to see Dower and PK on the court together. But I want it in the second half. I do not want to see both of them in foul trouble by half time. Therefore be more conservative playing both together in the first half.
I also think again that you might start PK, Dower, Coleman, Pangos and Bell. But then remove one of the bigs and bring in Barham early. Later you will add Nunez to the mix.

Oregonzagnut
05-19-2013, 01:45 PM
I also agree that I want to see Dower and PK on the court together. But I want it in the second half. I do not want to see both of them in foul trouble by half time. Therefore be more conservative playing both together in the first half.
I also think again that you might start PK, Dower, Coleman, Pangos and Bell. But then remove one of the bigs and bring in Barham early. Later you will add Nunez to the mix.

This! +1

But only if this is going to be our current team without any changes. It changes if we sign a standout power forward or center or if Few just does what Few wants to do.

Few probably has 3-4 Div 1 players and 30-40 JUCO kids lined up at the door. Weeding out the chaff is the hard part. Team chemistry, personal character and diamond in the rough un-developed talent, are the things recruiters look for when it comes to the final cut for the team roster.

Few will pull out a DivI 6'10" rabbit within the month.

VaBeachZAG
05-19-2013, 02:27 PM
Unfortunately, my take from the discussions on this board is that probably all that's left in the JUCO ranks at this point is chaff. I'm guessing the cream has already been skimmed off the top of the JUCO's.

75Zag
05-19-2013, 04:04 PM
Apparently Elites are shunning GU due to the March Meltdown (Trademark Application Pending) and remaining Jucos are "chaff", and I am not hearing about Coach Lloyd hitting any home runs in his search for International players in Outer Crapistan. But I think I have the solution.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7240288/oklahoma-city-thunder-byron-mullens-plays-pickup-ohio-inmates

To paraphrase Fitz, if they get parole, they can put the round thing in the hole!

Go Bulldogs!

zag67
05-19-2013, 04:23 PM
But remember we never hear about Europe until late summer
So I still believe but think we are going to
Be a solid team even if no changes occur. No I do not think top ten but I do think we will win alot

Baseline
05-20-2013, 10:15 AM
The starters

Pangos
Bell
Coleman
Barnham
Karno

Drano sees a lot of time the second half of the year.

cjm720
05-20-2013, 10:44 AM
Pangos, Bell, Coleman, Dower, Karno

or

Pangos, Bell, Coleman, Barham, Karno/Dower

Foul trouble should dictate a lot if we don't bring in another couple bigs to fill in.

2wiceright
05-21-2013, 12:10 AM
Unfortunately, my take from the discussions on this board is that probably all that's left in the JUCO ranks at this point is chaff. I'm guessing the cream has already been skimmed off the top of the JUCO's.

I agree regarding the 2013 Jucos, but all we really NEED is a serviceable big(Juco) with little offensive skills who can rebound and play some defense and block a shot or two. This would help get Dower/Karno some breathing room in case of foul trouble and spell each for about 5- 10 minutes a game.

We get that, and add in Nunez around X-mas and I think we could still have an average to good front line (of course all this depends on how far Dower/Karno progress and how bad Sam wants this to be his year!).... I think it will be a fun year with plenty of wins, surpassing what most expect.

zag67
05-21-2013, 06:56 AM
2W, nice post. You are right about a juco big. Someone like a Kuso would be super. Works hard on defense and boards. Also is a quick learner of the offense so that it does not become stagnate while he is in the game.

jpwils
05-21-2013, 02:37 PM
Season begins with:

Pangos, Bell, Coleman, PK, and Dower.

Middle- Pangos, Coleman, Barham, PK, Nunez- Dower and Bell off bench

Ends with : Pangos, Bell, Nunez, Barham, PK with Dower seeing major minutes off bench. Dranginis grows stronger during season and begins to fulfill his promise as well.

Unless we recruit another International stud which I do smell coming but have no basis in fact.

ZagaZags
04-20-2014, 07:24 PM
.....yup

Even you were part of the 75% I guess you had your pencil out in 2013.

exclusivelee
04-20-2014, 07:47 PM
well, based on Coach Few's "crunch time" backcourt last season, it will most assuredly be:

Pangos
Stockton
Bell
[Dower]
[Karno]

Few clearly feels most comfortable with those 3 running the show: "Small Guards, Big World".

As a fan, I'd go with Gorge's lineup, but alas, I'm just a fan...

Gerard Coleman coming off the bench to relieve Bell or Stockton. Same applies to Dranginis. Angel Nunez is not a 4, but may be forced into the PF position, along the lines of Daye, when he's eligible.

Honestly, no a single player/body to back-up either Dower or PK at this point in time. Edwards and Meikle simply don't count right now. Danger zone. Tough to get away with "overlooking" (throw away?) an entire recruiting class aka 2013, just b/c you didn't expect a player to transfer and/or declare. TELL THAT EXCUSE TO ANY OTHER TOP-20 PROGRAM OUT THERE. Give me a break. Anyway, I digress, I'll stick with the Pangos, Stocks, Bell lineup and that is no joke.

winner winner!!

interested to see your starting lineup for the 2014-15 season.

ZagaZags
04-20-2014, 07:52 PM
winner winner!!

interested to see your starting lineup for the 2014-15 season.

Chicken dinner. :D

bartruff1
04-20-2014, 08:07 PM
Even you were part of the 75% I guess you had your pencil out in 2013.

yup