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View Full Version : For those dissing Karno, he's already a projected 1st rounder after next season



thespywhozaggedme
05-05-2013, 08:58 PM
The guy's got mad skills; great touch, soft hands, advanced post moves. He just needs to work on getting in shape. The scouts have already taken note.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2014/

Malastein
05-05-2013, 10:09 PM
Well, it'll be interesting to see how much he's improved this next season. Hard to get minutes behind one of the best players in Gonzaga history.

VaBeachZAG
05-06-2013, 03:52 AM
I am not an NBA fan so I will simply defer to others on this board who have repeatedly observed that the NBA drafts based on potential. I doubt there are many who would dispute that PK has great potential. However, I have serious concern whether he will realize much of that potential, and that GU basketball will benefit from it, before PK jumps to the NBA. For this reason, if no other, GU needs to put every effort into getting as many quality bigs as possible for the sake of GU's basketball present and future!

jazzdelmar
05-06-2013, 04:49 AM
The guy's got mad skills; great touch, soft hands, advanced post moves. He just needs to work on getting in shape. The scouts have already taken note.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2014/

Not worth the paper it's not printed on. Sheer speculation. We have seen glimpses but the young man has a long way to go to even reach NBA suspect, much less prospect, IMO.

TexasZag
05-06-2013, 05:13 AM
I am not an NBA fan so I will simply defer to others on this board who have repeatedly observed that the NBA drafts based on potential. I doubt there are many who would dispute that PK has great potential. However, I have serious concern whether he will realize much of that potential, and that GU basketball will benefit from it, before PK jumps to the NBA. For this reason, if no other, GU needs to put every effort into getting as many quality bigs as possible for the sake of GU's basketball present and future!

If not potential, then what? To my knowledge, not a single potential draftee has ever been a regular in a league where they were up against rosters full of NBA talent playing an NBA-style game, on a nightly basis; thus, all draftees are drafted according to their potential. As for whether or not Karno realizes his while at Gonzaga, as with anybody learning or developing their craft, it's a life-long process. I look forward to watching the big guy develop while at Gonzaga, to the extent he does. And besides, who is so plugged in to the Almighty so as to know exactly what the bar is for Karno?

As we saw with KO, it won't be easy for Karno to develop into the polished (no pun intended) 7'-plus centerpiece that everyone would like to see. The NBA boneyards are full of 7'-plus "athletes" who never really learned to play within their size.

As for running out and loading up on talented bigs, there are only so many minutes to be had at the 4 and 5. You have to be careful, lest your motivation to stock up on bigs becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, of sorts.

Zagdawg
05-06-2013, 05:45 AM
The optimism is there based upon some of the glimpses we have seen--we will see what he can do in the off season and the year.

The negative nellies will saw no way that it will happen-- but only time and his drive and hard work will tell.

Zagcity
05-06-2013, 06:12 AM
Not worth the paper it's not printed on. Sheer speculation. We have seen glimpses but the young man has a long way to go to even reach NBA suspect, much less prospect, IMO.

And that opportunity is coming, he will make the most of it. It will be the rise of K2. :D

zag67
05-06-2013, 07:26 AM
He was a freshman who came from a different country and did not speak the language he had many other things also going on. He may or may not end up
Being a super star. But I say wait and see and enjoy the journey

thespywhozaggedme
05-06-2013, 07:39 AM
Not worth the paper it's not printed on. Sheer speculation. We have seen glimpses but the young man has a long way to go to even reach NBA suspect, much less prospect, IMO.

They're far and away the top draft site in the country/world. Didn't you say something similar when I brought up the same thing about Kelly a few years ago? Karno is very skilled, as I stated during the first week, we haven't seen such advanced big man skills since JP.

jazzdelmar
05-06-2013, 07:56 AM
They're far and away the top draft site in the country/world. Didn't you say something similar when I brought up the same thing about Kelly a few years ago? Karno is very skilled, as I stated during the first week, we haven't seen such advanced big man skills since JP.

Never. I tabbed KO as the Zag most likely to make the NBA among those on the roster three years ago......check the record.

Mr Vulture
05-06-2013, 07:57 AM
The scouting report on PK is from 2011 so not sure how much should be put into this draft projection at this point. I do believe the NBA will be on PK as he matures, but I think he needs to continue to work on his conditioning/body at this point. I would be shocked if he blew up like KO did this year but I could see him being light years from where he was last season come the end of his junior year.

cjm720
05-06-2013, 08:08 AM
The guy's got mad skills; great touch, soft hands, advanced post moves. He just needs to work on getting in shape. The scouts have already taken note.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2014/

That write-up's from April 2011, FYI.

MDABE80
05-06-2013, 08:25 AM
That write-up's from April 2011, FYI.

Oops ....

Ezag
05-06-2013, 08:31 AM
Mad skills....still to be determined, raw man who needs some development and playing time. Nice to see if he makes that sophomore jump. I remember Violette was pretty horrible his freshman year but man did he come out with a vengeance the next year....

northsidezagfan
05-06-2013, 08:42 AM
That write-up's from April 2011, FYI.

But the draft order was updated last Sunday. Plenty of guys in front of him dont even have write-ups. I'm sure scouts have seen him play since then, regardless of when his last official write-up was pubished.

Goshzagit
05-06-2013, 08:43 AM
I have an inkling Karno will by our go-to player next season. Well, besides Pangos green light for shooting and making plays.

As long as PK conditions himself this off-season, he's potentially our best option to make plays underneath. Scoring, passing, drawing doubles, etc. He's a player we can consistently count on to hustle as well, which can't be said for Dower at this juncture.

He may even end up our leading scorer next season and I'm not kidding, especially if we whiff on Moser and Davis (which is more than plausible as this point).

CDC84
05-06-2013, 09:13 AM
None of it is going to happen until he reshapes his body.

Goshzagit
05-06-2013, 09:32 AM
None of it is going to happen until he reshapes his body.

+1

yep, which may or may not happen. He's supposedly going to stay in Spokane until late June, then participate in Poland's Nat'l Team activities from July - beginnning of Sept.

JAGzag
05-06-2013, 09:43 AM
+1

yep, which may or may not happen. He's supposedly going to stay in Spokane until late June, then participate in Poland's Nat'l Team activities from July - beginnning of Sept.

Patriotism aside, can't understand this decision. Playing against a bunch of European kids will not help his development. And, if our past experience from other GU players is any indicator, he may regress. His only ticket to the NBA is to stay and train for three straight months. If does leave for two months, don't expect a marked improvement next year.

hooter73
05-06-2013, 10:05 AM
Article is still all based on his 7 minutes at the Nike Hoops Summit years ago, even that couldnt have been a good sample size to make these evaluations.

Hextall7388
05-06-2013, 10:13 AM
Speaking of patriotism, to suggest that Karno will not improve if he plays for the Polish national team this summer seems to imply that the facilities, trainers and level of play in Poland and Europe is somehow inferior that in Spokane. I am sure Karno will have the opportunity to train at excellent facilities, have access to quality trainers and play a competitive level of basketball on his national team. While all of these things are important to Karno's development, the most important thing will be his own drive and determination to improve himself. He could have the best facilities, trainers and competition available to him, but if he does not put in the time and effort, it will not matter.

23zagmd
05-06-2013, 10:21 AM
He was projected to be a very good college player......not even close at this point. Not even dominant in the WCC at this point and people think that translates to him being a projected first rounder?

That projection is not worth the paper it's written on. The GM that takes him in the first round at this point will get fired when the ink drys on his contract! This may sound harsh but come on?

If he does one thing from now til November it should not involve a basketball and SHOULD involve a lot of weight room and the program that KO went thru.

Larrylegend
05-06-2013, 10:32 AM
As much as GU anoints its self as Guard U, more impressive is the development of its Bigs. Cory Viollete as a freshman had the same pudgy build as PK but with a lower demonstrated skill-set. Casey Calvary humiliated Violette when he was a freshman but Cory became a monster. Look at Ronny Turiaf's tremendous progression from freshman to senior as well as the development of 7-footer Rob Sacre. Olynyk has set the standard for a GU Big's development.

Without question PK is in a program that can help him get the most out of what he has and that's a considerable amount. The real question is how hard will Karno work? How bad does he want it?

meadgrad02
05-06-2013, 10:33 AM
"I have an inkling Karno will by our go-to player next season."

If he is our "go to" guy next year, we are in trouble. Unless there is a ridiculous transformation, physically and his ability. Not sure, but I just don't see it. We will all hear about the transformation of Kelly, so maybe he could do the same. Blah, blah. He isn't the future of the program, so you can't say he's the go-to guy next year.

hooter73
05-06-2013, 10:37 AM
Speaking of patriotism, to suggest that Karno will not improve if he plays for the Polish national team this summer seems to imply that the facilities, trainers and level of play in Poland and Europe is somehow inferior that in Spokane. I am sure Karno will have the opportunity to train at excellent facilities, have access to quality trainers and play a competitive level of basketball on his national team. While all of these things are important to Karno's development, the most important thing will be his own drive and determination to improve himself. He could have the best facilities, trainers and competition available to him, but if he does not put in the time and effort, it will not matter.

Weve seen it and heard it from the players themselves. The biggest issue is they dont go to international ball to practice and train, they go to play, and play a different style of game than what NCAA ball is here. At some point they have to choose what they want to concentrate on, international or college. And hopefully its not too late. Harris stunted his (college) game for two years by going back to Germany, plus getting hurt. If you want an NBA shot, then you need to make waves in the place its going to get noticed the most.

Saxon_zag
05-06-2013, 10:40 AM
Not worth the paper it's not printed on. Sheer speculation. We have seen glimpses but the young man has a long way to go to even reach NBA suspect, much less prospect, IMO.

No jazz an 18 year old true center with his size and hands is the definition of an NBA prospect. Wrong again.

Saxon_zag
05-06-2013, 10:44 AM
Speaking of patriotism, to suggest that Karno will not improve if he plays for the Polish national team this summer seems to imply that the facilities, trainers and level of play in Poland and Europe is somehow inferior that in Spokane. I am sure Karno will have the opportunity to train at excellent facilities, have access to quality trainers and play a competitive level of basketball on his national team. While all of these things are important to Karno's development, the most important thing will be his own drive and determination to improve himself. He could have the best facilities, trainers and competition available to him, but if he does not put in the time and effort, it will not matter.

NAh people on this board have a rager for the euro players not going home during the summer. I think it stems from ELias always going then coming back the next year worse off, until between his junior and senior year. I think PK will be just dandy regardless

MTZag03
05-06-2013, 10:48 AM
As much as GU anoints its self as Guard U, more impressive is the development of its Bigs. Cory Viollete as a freshman had the same pudgy build as PK but with a lower demonstrated skill-set. Casey Calvary humiliated Violette when he was a freshman but Cory became a monster. Look at Ronny Turiaf's tremendous progression from freshman to senior as well as the development of 7-footer Rob Sacre. Olynyk has set the standard for a GU Big's development.

Without question PK is in a program that can help him get the most out of what he has and that's a considerable amount. The real question is how hard will Karno work? How bad does he want it?

Good points. If we base Karno's work ethic off of his hustle on the floor then GU has nothing to worry about. Remember him diving on the floor for loose balls?

Last year all of us were peeing our pants over getting him and now some people have almost written him off. He's 19 years old and skilled. Karnowski was excellent for several games. He runs the floor well and can catch the ball. He'll do fine next year so long as he keeps working hard whether it is with the GU staff or in Poland.

Hoopaholic
05-06-2013, 10:54 AM
Hextall,
The issue isnt patriotism, it is reality. generally players who head back home get training, get playiing time but it is not geared towards the specific team they play for at the college level, it is geared directly towards the success of that particular summer team. Sometimes those two goals do not always align and sometimes they can even clash and be polar opposite....and we are talking about simple mechanics, footwork, hand positioning, angles, lane running, rebound techniques that if taught one way only to have to be retaught when returning to the college they play for this sets the students back.

Secondly the style of play may affect the potential of the student athlete...again deferring to a specific summer league team they may want to play a set type of ball that may be completely opposite to what the college is trying to incorporate into the student athletes.

These are the two big potential negatives that I see with a student going back during summer months to participate with a select team.

Now, I have no idea what Karno's summer teams style, coaching philosophy or if our staff have provided a specific workout for Karno if he leaves. One would hope that the weakness and how to work on them are identified in a "to do work out protocol" and then it would not matter who is helping so long as the attention to details are there for instant, routine, consistent reinforcement.

DixieZag
05-06-2013, 11:09 AM
Like all players, but big men in particular, Karno needs minutes to progress. We are damn lucky he chose us even though he knew he was behind 2 upper classmen as he came in. He came into a situation where it was almost coaching malpractice to take Kelly or Elias out of the game. He was getting, at most, 5 quality minutes a game last year and it showed later in the year that he was pressing. Many of us are evaluating his worth based upon his performance during those 5 minutes which is pretty silly.

Just with him knowing that he is starting, that he is going to battle all game, a missed shot will not get him yanked and his teamates need him to fight and score, he will be considerably better as would anyone who is now not having to look over their shoulder.

I do wish he would stay in Spokane all summer. All of our evidence is that players do better by staying here and avoiding the international scene. But, we are going by experience with only a handful of players. Though I would rather him stay here, there is no reason to think that he will have the set backs that Harris did and it is possible that he will gain as much or even more by going and playing for the national team - - he could be an exception.

Somewhere betwenn the "lottery pick" and "dud" is the truth with Karno. The truth is that he is 7'1, getting stronger and has great basketball skills, there are damn few prospects in the country that have that combo. I think we are very lucky to have him. I also think that he has shown us the type of kid he is by being able to drop everything he knew, come over and quite obviously become a Zag from the very beginning, that type of guy should get the benefit of the doubt as to his commitment and work ethic.

Big skills, big body, big heart - - I'll take it.

ZagNative
05-06-2013, 11:17 AM
Elias' German NT Coach, Dirk Bauermann, is now the coach for the Polish NT. I'm betting Elias will have some words of wisdom for karnowski. FIBA January 28, 2013 (http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/news/lateNews/arti.asp?newsid=54713).

cjm720
05-06-2013, 11:19 AM
I think some are having a hard time differenting a student-athlete from a professional athlete. Sure, as a fan, it would be great to see a player dedicate every second to basketball, so we can squeeze in a few extra wins, gets some highlights, and have bragging rights for our friends, but this is a 20-year old kid in the midst of arguably the best period in his life...Go home, eat some perogi, visit some friends, play some hoops, then return to Spokane and your new family.

maynard g krebs
05-06-2013, 01:16 PM
I think some are having a hard time differenting a student-athlete from a professional athlete.

Go home, eat some perogi,

Guys on this level usually have a goal of becoming a professional athlete.

If I wanted to become a professional athlete, I'd probably avoid eating
unleavened dumplings filled with mashed potatoes and cheese and fried in butter. Especially if I was a guy who needed to reshape his body.

zag944
05-06-2013, 01:56 PM
His numbers arent all that different than Sacre or Kelly's in their first year. And those guys didnt have a player of the year candidate in front of them. Difficult season to judge the guy by....

Think he will be a lot more comfortable next year, and we might see him begin to shape into the NBA player he potentially is. Heck he was putting together some good games last year when he got 15-20 minutes.

cjm720
05-06-2013, 02:01 PM
Guys on this level usually have a goal of becoming a professional athlete.

If I wanted to become a professional athlete, I'd probably avoid eating
unleavened dumplings filled with mashed potatoes and cheese and fried in butter. Especially if I was a guy who needed to reshape his body.

Dude's lost a ton of blubber already and that's with COG food. A perogi won't slow him down :)

bballbeachbum
05-06-2013, 02:06 PM
Elias' German NT Coach, Dirk Bauermann, is now the coach for the Polish NT. I'm betting Elias will have some words of wisdom for karnowski. FIBA January 28, 2013 (http://www.fiba.com/pages/eng/fc/news/lateNews/arti.asp?newsid=54713).

interesting. I don't recall E retruning a much improved player under Bauermann's tutelage, hope that recollection is wrong but it's not. Hopefully Karno shows differently.

and I think Larrylegend is right; GU develops bigs well, not just guards

BTB
05-06-2013, 02:09 PM
I'm surprised there are so many Karnowski doubters here! I will be surprised if Karnivore averages less than 10 ppg next year

OZZY
05-06-2013, 02:22 PM
In Karno I trust.....:)

Love his skill set, love his hustle and love his bad a** attitude... you will see it next year!

thespywhozaggedme
05-06-2013, 02:26 PM
That write-up's from April 2011, FYI.

Not sure what write-up you're referring to, I didn't see one. I did see this at the top of the link though:

This Mock was last updated on Sun Apr 28th at 10:53:56 PM

thespywhozaggedme
05-06-2013, 02:34 PM
None of it is going to happen until he reshapes his body.

Tractor Traylor, who ate himself outta the league was drafted 9th. He was in MUCH worse shape than Karno.

webspinnre
05-06-2013, 02:38 PM
Not sure what write-up you're referring to, I didn't see one. I did see this at the top of the link though:

This Mock was last updated on Sun Apr 28th at 10:53:56 PM

They're talking about the write-up on Karno if you click on his name, I do believe.

MTZag03
05-06-2013, 02:52 PM
In Karno I trust.....:)

Love his skill set, love his hustle and love is bad a** attitude... you will see it next year!

I'm with you Ozzy.

U Zig, I Zag
05-06-2013, 03:05 PM
He has soft hands and good feet. He finished at the rim (dunks) and put the ball on the deck to work a guy back and forth before making a move. He looked way better earlier in the year, that's probably due to minutes and the easier competition (in some games, anyway). He ran (not walked, not jogged) up and down the court going both ways, he got on the ground for loose balls and didn't seem too intimidated by the opposing teams or players.

I think he wore down a bit and he'll need to tone of his body some. Otherwise I think we got a winner.

Hextall7388
05-06-2013, 03:10 PM
Hextall,
The issue isnt patriotism, it is reality. generally players who head back home get training, get playiing time but it is not geared towards the specific team they play for at the college level, it is geared directly towards the success of that particular summer team. Sometimes those two goals do not always align and sometimes they can even clash and be polar opposite....and we are talking about simple mechanics, footwork, hand positioning, angles, lane running, rebound techniques that if taught one way only to have to be retaught when returning to the college they play for this sets the students back.

Secondly the style of play may affect the potential of the student athlete...again deferring to a specific summer league team they may want to play a set type of ball that may be completely opposite to what the college is trying to incorporate into the student athletes.

These are the two big potential negatives that I see with a student going back during summer months to participate with a select team.

Now, I have no idea what Karno's summer teams style, coaching philosophy or if our staff have provided a specific workout for Karno if he leaves. One would hope that the weakness and how to work on them are identified in a "to do work out protocol" and then it would not matter who is helping so long as the attention to details are there for instant, routine, consistent reinforcement.


I do not disagree with your comments. I just want to put this into perspective. By the time he departs for Poland, Karno will have had nearly 3 months to work on the footwork, hand positioning, angles, lane running and rebounding techniques that you have referenced. That's 3 months for the staff to put together a very comprehensive training plan, which I assume has already been done. The kid will be gone for 2 months. When he returns he will have nearly 2.5 months before the season begins to continue his development. If he sticks to the training program while in Poland, he will be just fine. To suggest, as some seem to be, that two months away is going to have some detrimential effect on his career at GU seems a bit dramatic. If he goes back home and packs on 20 pounds from the home cooking, I agree with you.

It is unfortunate that we seem to use EH and KO as the bookends for this discussion. KO is such a unique situation, and I doubt it will be duplicated by another. His turnaround was the perfect storm of him growing into his body, dedicating himself to basketball, putting the right training program together and most importantly, he had the raw skills. I feel like some people are giving the training program way too much credit, and forget that it was just one factor that contributed to KO's success this past year. Similarily, when it comes to EH, to suggest that his improvement as a player was stunted because he went home and played "euro ball" for the summer, puts too much emphasis on where he spent his summers. We will never know if EH stuck to his training program those summers, or if he slacked off and goofed around with his buddies, like most 20 year old do.

A training program is just one factor. It is ultimately up to the individual, his drive, desire, skills and physical attributes. I can buy a Muscle and Fitness magazine and strictly follow one of the workout and diet programs, but the reality is, no matter how many years I spend in the gym I will never look like the guy on the front cover of the magazine....it's just not in the DNA.

zagfan1
05-06-2013, 03:49 PM
Karno needs to improve both his FG and FT %. If that happens scouts will really pay attention. I don't put a lot into draft projections. Scouts really like KO because of those percentages. Shooting over 50% is fantastic.

thespywhozaggedme
05-06-2013, 04:03 PM
They're talking about the write-up on Karno if you click on his name, I do believe.

Yes, I was being facetious. The point was: who cares when the write up was done? Some of the players don't even have a write up yet. The mock was updated last Sunday; that's the point.

thespywhozaggedme
05-06-2013, 04:05 PM
Oops ....

The mock draft was updated last Sunday, you quoted someone who made a completely irrelevant point. I say oops to your oops.

ZAGGED OUT
05-06-2013, 04:31 PM
Karno needs to improve both his FG and FT %. If that happens scouts will really pay attention. I don't put a lot into draft projections. Scouts really like KO because of those percentages. Shooting over 50% is fantastic.

Karno shot 57% last year.

thespywhozaggedme
05-06-2013, 04:49 PM
I'm surprised there are so many Karnowski doubters here! I will be surprised if Karnivore averages less than 10 ppg next year

If he gets starter minutes, 13/8 is very realistic.

maynard g krebs
05-06-2013, 06:24 PM
The mock draft was updated last Sunday, you quoted someone who made a completely irrelevant point. I say oops to your oops.

Is that what you call oneoopsmanship?

thespywhozaggedme
05-06-2013, 08:13 PM
Is that what you call oneoopsmanship?

badum bum. :lmao:

DCZag
05-06-2013, 08:52 PM
3 pages on this....Wow - people are bored

thespywhozaggedme
05-06-2013, 09:01 PM
3 pages on this....Wow - people are bored

You do realize the irony of your post, I presume? :)

DCZag
05-06-2013, 09:15 PM
yep

zagfan1
05-06-2013, 11:16 PM
Ok I checked the stats and Karno shot 44 % from the free throw line. He made 32 of 72 attempts. KO FT % was 78. Karno was the worst FT shooter on the team.

bballbeachbum
05-07-2013, 11:04 AM
Ok I checked the stats and Karno shot 44 % from the free throw line. He made 32 of 72 attempts. KO FT % was 78. Karno was the worst FT shooter on the team.

this is an important stat for Karno to improve upon, and it's totally doable. He can't be a closer for this team and shoot FTs like that, no way. But if he improves, oh say up to 65-70%, then he's a pretty good weapon down the stretch and not a liability

maynard g krebs
05-07-2013, 11:26 AM
He did make 11 of his last 20, 55%, after being at 40% his first 52 attempts, so he was trending upward at the end.

His form is pretty good; he just needs reps in game conditions to get comfortable and confident at the line. To me his body language at the line looked like he was afraid to miss, and not trusting his mechanics as a result. I'm pretty confident he'll improve in this area.

I'm curious if anyone close to the program knows if the team uses a sports psychologist on problem areas like Karno's ft's, teaches visualization techniques etc.

DixieZag
05-07-2013, 11:32 AM
He did make 11 of his last 20, 55%, after being at 40% his first 52 attempts, so he was trending upward at the end.

His form is pretty good; he just needs reps in game conditions to get comfortable and confident at the line. To me his body language at the line looked like he was afraid to miss, and not trusting his mechanics as a result. I'm pretty confident he'll improve in this area.

I think this is a great observation. I would expand it beyond FTs to his field goal attempts, which at the beginning of the year went in with surprising ease and then late in the year they seemed to defy physics and stay out of the hoop. Just looking at his face it almost seemed like he was mystified and more and more committed to guiding his shots to the bottom of the hoop and it had the opposite effect.

Part of why I am so optimistic about Karno is that so much of his game has flawless mechanics - he just ran into a big mind block, or so it seemed to me anyway. . .

Rebounding is the one area that I think may need to be fully broken down and reworked but that's another day.

cjm720
05-07-2013, 11:37 AM
I bet Karno's around a 70% FT shooter next year. He's got nice form, a good release, and nice touch. It seems like he got coached up quite a bit last year, because about half way through league play he changed his posture at the line - he stopped bending over so much (before shooting) and I think his numbers improved.

More minutes will help too (of course) IMO.