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View Full Version : Great Game, except for refs



mihalevich
04-08-2013, 08:00 PM
I thought NAtl Championship game was supposed to get best
refs. If Im Michigan I am very mad. Burke got a raw deal with
2 of his fouls...Had the block of the tourney...Refs call nothing all
game and then call that...Also Mich big man had foul trouble with
bad calls.

AzZag
04-08-2013, 08:33 PM
Horrible horrible game by the refs.
The Trey Burke block that was called a foul changed everything.
Missed goaltendings, kicked balls, shoves in the back, hand checking.
Steve Kerr saw it and called it all night long. These two teams were even in all aspects...

JPtheBeasta
04-08-2013, 08:49 PM
There's a lot of talk about how ugly the tournament was, and the poor general state of offense in college basketball this year, and it all starts with the refs.

kclubfounder
04-08-2013, 08:54 PM
I didn't know how or when to post it, but our friend Lynette's Michigan player (Jordan Morgan, I think is his name) completely and totally blocked the Syracuse player in the semis, and it was the play of the game. No way, no how, should it have been a charge.

It's a tough game to ref, but WAY too may charges are called.

CDC84
04-08-2013, 09:13 PM
It's a tough game to ref, but WAY too may charges are called.

In this game? I don't know if there was a single player control foul all game. It was the one thing I took away from the game tonight. It was so beautiful to watch a game where players weren't flopping all over the place. But a lot of credit also goes to the offensive players who were rarely out of control going towards the basket.

Wish it happened more often, because it leads to the kind of scoring we saw tonight.

That being said, I pretty much agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread regarding the officiating. The refs also assigned fouls to incorrect players a couple of times which was huge in a game where both sides were struggling with foul issues.

LynetteG
04-08-2013, 09:28 PM
Michigan got mugged, thug ball 5 vs 8. That said, I'm very proud of the Michigan team! I really wish this one had gone the other way!

BTW, apparently I was a TV star several times during the broadcast, lol.

DixieZag
04-08-2013, 10:01 PM
Michigan got mugged, thug ball 5 vs 8. That said, I'm very proud of the Michigan team! I really wish this one had gone the other way!

BTW, apparently I was a TV star several times during the broadcast, lol.

Lynette,

Congrats to you and your nephew on a great season for them.

I know it is little consulation now but you have every reason to be proud of that young man, worked his asteroid off this year, seems to be a fantastic young man. . . and a great smile.

Spike94
04-08-2013, 10:05 PM
It is really frustrating to watch a team that is touted by many for their great D when in reality they are fouling constantly. It really needs to be called. The reason they are so "good" is because they are holding, pushing and grabbing. Its almost as if the refs think they can't call all the fouls or it would disrupt the flow. But the grabbing turns this into something other then well played basketball.

DixieZag
04-08-2013, 10:56 PM
It is really frustrating to watch a team that is touted by many for their great D when in reality they are fouling constantly. It really needs to be called. The reason they are so "good" is because they are holding, pushing and grabbing. Its almost as if the refs think they can't call all the fouls or it would disrupt the flow. But the grabbing turns this into something other then well played basketball.

Good point.

Added to it, seems like they get more rewarded for the more they do b/c they get the rep as "tough - physical - tenacious" all that stuff and refs just decide it's who they are.

Cavebear33
04-08-2013, 11:13 PM
I watched the Baylor-Louisville women's game and Louisville won that one by literally beating Brittney Griner to death right in front of the refs - especially in the first half. Louisville isn't the only school, men or women, benefiting from today's changeover to a extremely physical "let em play" contest by too many officials. When you watch all the grabbing, holding, shoving and everything else that happens - especially in a championship game, it makes you wonder just what the referees are there for any more. I come away thinking that after almost every game I watch lately.

GeorgiaZagFan
04-08-2013, 11:49 PM
I watched the Baylor-Louisville women's game and Louisville won that one by literally beating Brittney Griner to death right in front of the refs - especially in the first half. Louisville isn't the only school, men or women, benefiting from today's changeover to a extremely physical "let em play" contest by too many officials. When you watch all the grabbing, holding, shoving and everything else that happens - especially in a championship game, it makes you wonder just what the referees are there for any more. I come away thinking that after almost every game I watch lately.

i believe that L'ville's philosophy is to foul on every play cause the refs won't call them all ..and it wears down and frustrates the other ...it is a pitiful display of basketball the way it should be played

ZagaZags
04-09-2013, 01:23 AM
i believe that L'ville's philosophy is to foul on every play cause the refs won't call them all ..and it wears down and frustrates the other ...it is a pitiful display of basketball the way it should be played

Wichita State.

Birddog
04-09-2013, 03:33 AM
This

It is really frustrating to watch a team that is touted by many for their great D when in reality they are fouling constantly. It really needs to be called. The reason they are so "good" is because they are holding, pushing and grabbing. Its almost as if the refs think they can't call all the fouls or it would disrupt the flow. But the grabbing turns this into something other then well played basketball.
This

When you watch all the grabbing, holding, shoving and everything else that happens - especially in a championship game, it makes you wonder just what the referees are there for any more. I come away thinking that after almost every game I watch lately.
And this

i believe that L'ville's philosophy is to foul on every play cause the refs won't call them all ..and it wears down and frustrates the other ...it is a pitiful display of basketball the way it should be played

They're ruining the game, at least for this fan.

UABZag
04-09-2013, 03:51 AM
Totally agree. Several undercuts under the rim (intentional or unintentional) by Louisville players not called. Hancock's undercut on I believe Burke as he's going for a layup gets mis-assigned to Dieng and prevents Hancock from picking up his 4th. Agree that UL plays defense with the mentality that the refs can't call everything and in crunch time they bank on the fact that the refs WON't call anything to avoid the perception that the refs are taking over the game and impeding the flow.

GoZags
04-09-2013, 05:20 AM
Totally agree. Several undercuts under the rim (intentional or unintentional) by Louisville players not called. Hancock's undercut on I believe Burke as he's going for a layup gets mis-assigned to Dieng and prevents Hancock from picking up his 4th. Agree that UL plays defense with the mentality that the refs can't call everything and in crunch time they bank on the fact that the refs WON't call anything to avoid the perception that the refs are taking over the game and impeding the flow.

Most important play of the game.

Reborn
04-09-2013, 06:19 AM
The refs have been horrible throughout. I felt the worst reffed game was Louisville vs Wichita St in the last 5 minutes. Talk about a mugging.

I thought the worst foul last night was when Burke picked up his second foul on a play where a Louiville player was faking to shoot a 3 pointer. The shooter clearly thrust himself into the defender (Burke) to draw the foul. Burke wasn't even infront of the shooter, but was clearly on the side of him and the shooter jumps to the side of the defender. That put Burke on the bench for 12 min in the first half.

And we all know about the foul where Olynyk was going to the hoop and clearly got hit on the head.

Basketball, imo, has become an ugly game. I didn't enjoy the tournament much at all this year. Basketball is a game that should be played in the 70 and 80's.

Zagcity
04-09-2013, 06:22 AM
Hancock's undercut on I believe Burke as he's going for a layup gets mis-assigned to Dieng and prevents Hancock from picking up his 4th.



Most important play of the game.


I'm on that same page also.

cjm720
04-09-2013, 07:21 AM
Love the fact that the refs allowed a physical game. Hate the fact that there's no consistency from game to game, league to league.

scott257
04-09-2013, 07:53 AM
Love the fact that the refs allowed a physical game. Hate the fact that there's no consistency from game to game, league to league.

That is the problem with allowing the more physical game. The referees have to selectively choose what they are going to call and what they are not going to call. Last I checked - that isn't in their job description, they are supposed to call the game in accordance with the rules to the best of their ability. When they do not, you see the inconsistent application of the rules. My thought is that they need to call the game correctly and not based on their individual bias (toward more or less physical play). If that then creates problems with the game in ways that cause the rules to be reviewed or fine tuned, then that is the way it should be done.

While I have heard a lot of people say we can't complain about the officiating in our loss to WSU, I personally believe we can - that swing where Kelly got hammered and there was no call, and then they traveled like a sixth grader just learning the game, was a crucial swing in the game. While it shouldn't have bothered us as badly as it did, it was poor officiating. In a close game, which this was, bad calls by incompetent officials can change the outcome of the game.

jake
04-09-2013, 07:56 AM
Most important play of the game.

I went back to try to find this play but didn't see it. What point in the game was this at? I was using the play-by-play to see where Burke shot free throws but may have missed it.

cjm720
04-09-2013, 08:07 AM
Can't believe they called a foul on Burke's block of Siva's dunk attempt....game changer, felt bad for Burke.

siliconzag
04-09-2013, 08:21 AM
Best finals I've seen in terms of level of play. I was hoping for some last second dramatics, but the best team won, with much of Michigan's success built around a little heralded back up. One way to look at the fouls called on Burke was that it allowed Spike to go off for 17 points.

The idea that Louisville plays aggressive defense and gets away with murder is an arguable point. What is not at all arguable is how tough they are as a team. They came back from advresity on multiple occasions: against Wichita State, against Syracuse (in the Big East Finals), against Michigan. They are tenacious and talented, and for the most part disciplined. Pitino is the ultimate micromanaging coach and exploits every misstep of his opponents, and has an answer to every new defensive wrinkle thrown at him.

I know this is heresy on this forum, but I am going to say it anyway: Both Michigan and Louisville would have defeated Gonzaga (and Creighton for that matter) in head to head competition. I don't see our guards being able to stop Burke, Albrecht, Hardaway, and certainly not Siva and Smith and their wingman, Hancock. It isn't just about height either. Siva is 6 feet even and Smith one inch taller. It is about quickness and generating shots, getting to the hoop and finishing however. Hancock's skills at the wing, confirms what many of our own forum experts have been saying all year. An effective wing is essential in opening up the middle. Without Hancock, Siva's drives would have been better defended.

A note about the officiating. It is what it is. Until last night, I had many of the same thoughts about it. Last night, despite some pretty poor calls (both ways), the teams managed to upstage the refs. And the offenses managed to out do the defense. It was a great game, and I think Pitino is a genius. Congratulations to Louisville, to Peyton Siva (from Seattle's Franklin HS), and Coach Pitino and to Dickie V, who had them Number One on November 1, 2012!

Sili

mihalevich
04-09-2013, 08:32 AM
Best finals I've seen in terms of level of play. I was hoping for some last second dramatics, but the best team won, with much of Michigan's success built around a little heralded back up. One way to look at the fouls called on Burke was that it allowed Spike to go off for 17 points.

The idea that Louisville plays aggressive defense and gets away with murder is an arguable point. What is not at all arguable is how tough they are as a team. They came back from advresity on multiple occasions: against Wichita State, against Syracuse (in the Big East Finals), against Michigan. They are tenacious and talented, and for the most part disciplined. Pitino is the ultimate micromanaging coach and exploits every misstep of his opponents, and has an answer to every new defensive wrinkle thrown at him.

I know this is heresy on this forum, but I am going to say it anyway: Both Michigan and Louisville would have defeated Gonzaga (and Creighton for that matter) in head to head competition. I don't see our guards being able to stop Burke, Albrecht, Hardaway, and certainly not Siva and Smith and their wingman, Hancock. It isn't just about height either. Siva is 6 feet even and Smith one inch taller. It is about quickness and generating shots, getting to the hoop and finishing however. Hancock's skills at the wing, confirms what many of our own forum experts have been saying all year. An effective wing is essential in opening up the middle. Without Hancock, Siva's drives would have been better defended.

A note about the officiating. It is what it is. Until last night, I had many of the same thoughts about it. Last night, despite some pretty poor calls (both ways), the teams managed to upstage the refs. And the offenses managed to out do the defense. It was a great game, and I think Pitino is a genius. Congratulations to Louisville, to Peyton Siva (from Seattle's Franklin HS), and Coach Pitino.

Sili

disagree on bad calls going both ways...when Michigans best player sits out for most of 1st half because of a horrendous foul call that is more than just 1 bad call

zag944
04-09-2013, 08:35 AM
Not just a massive game changer at the time, but Michigan must have wasted 20 seconds of the last minute when they should have been fouling, since Burke didnt want to commit his 5th foul. Why they werent playing the sub in sub out game was a mystery though.

Those poor NBA refs have such a bad reputation for "never calling traveling" (mostly from people who never watch as far as I can tell), when the state of refereeing in college ball is miserable almost across the board....charge/block calls in particular.

jake
04-09-2013, 08:51 AM
disagree on bad calls going both ways...when Michigans best player sits out for most of 1st half because of a horrendous foul call that is more than just 1 bad call

Michigan made a decision to sit Burke for as long as they did with 2 fouls. If there was a bad call that obviously had an impact. However, I believe that a lot of teams hurt themselves sitting guys too long hoping for end of game magic in the last 3 minutes. At times I think you are better to play the guy and see what actually happens instead of sitting him fearing what might happen.

CDC84
04-09-2013, 09:37 AM
What I don't like about Louisville's perimeters is how they behave after fouls get called on them while they are pressing. I am surprised the refs don't call technicals on them. They act like crybabies at times.

CDC84
04-09-2013, 09:44 AM
I also think Beilein made a coaching mistake by playing Spike Albrecht too much towards the end of the game. I know he had the hot hand in the 1st half, but Nik Stauskas is a 44% three point shooter himself. Spike hardly played this year, and it showed when he started turning the ball over and started screwing up defensively towards the end. Nik is way more experienced when it comes to handling pressure situations.

mgadfly
04-09-2013, 10:03 AM
Can't believe they called a foul on Burke's block of Siva's dunk attempt....game changer, felt bad for Burke.

This was the one that just killed me. The last time down the court there had been a rugby scrum with pushing, shoving, and I think biting, but then Siva gets rejected twenty seconds later and Burke might have brushed against his hip or something (I'm guessing because the replay shows a clean block) and they make a call.

How does a player adjust when the game is going to be called on the opposite end of the contact-spectrum in the space of twenty seconds?


The other horrible one was the second foul on Burke. A defensive player should be able to jump and be entitled to a safe landing. An offensive players should not be allowed to run underneath a defender like that and draw a foul. I thought the rules were in place, to some degree, for player safety, what sense does it make to incentivize undercutting a defenseless defender like that?

But at least the officials were consistently horrible and one-sided.

bballbeachbum
04-09-2013, 11:07 AM
agree with all whose take was the refs stunk, and that they did not stink consistently but instead selectively on one end of the floor much more, for whatever reason

:agreed: and disappointed

also found it typical these days that a team, in this case Louisville, could be so 'physical' and then complain when the whistles would finally blow. boo

UberZagFan
04-09-2013, 01:55 PM
Uber just imagines how much more exciting that game would have been if the refs actually did a half way decent job. The teams scored amazingly in spite of the refs allowing a mugging all the way around.

A couple points:

1) they will never call all contact but in Uber's opinion contact that affects a shot or possession (whether that be on a steal, turnover, forced travel, rebound, etc.) should always be called a foul and when the play is away from the basket and has no bearing on a TO or scoring, then let those go.

2) it used to be only when a player was on the floor you could fly into him and start trying to "tie it up" (don't know when that foul stopped being called but it was a while ago) but now apparently you can do the same thing to a player who is standing and who just rebounded the ball--just reach right in and grab the ball, no need to worry about smacking his arms or body. "Tie ups" should almost never be called--they are fouls nearly every time.

JPtheBeasta
04-09-2013, 02:00 PM
I went back to try to find this play but didn't see it. What point in the game was this at? I was using the play-by-play to see where Burke shot free throws but may have missed it.

Burke free throws followed by a Siva lay-in, assisted by Hancock.

jake
04-09-2013, 02:53 PM
Burke free throws followed by a Siva lay-in, assisted by Hancock.

I found that play with 6:36 to go, but the foul that was called that lead to Burke's free throws was on Dieng and Hancock wasn't in the area. I was assuming there was another play that was being referenced.

Colbyspapa
04-09-2013, 03:39 PM
I believe that was one of the best basketball games I've seen in years. The refs allowed a physical game and besides the block on Siva seemed to call it both ways. I rooted for MI but in no way do I feel they were robbed.

Those two teams showed tremendous heart, athleticism and basketball skill. they played hard defense, executed on offense and fought for every basket. What stuck out most to me was the speed at which both teams played. Siva is one of the best pure point guards I have ever seen.

Which leads me to this question, do you think this year's Zags could have played with these guys?

Personally, I don't think so. I love our team but I don't think we could match their speed or athleticism. There was only 20 turnovers between both teams last night at that speed with every possession being a battle. those guys played so far above the rim it was crazy. Sivas alleyoop was spectacular as was Hardaway's dunk in the last 5 minutes. truly a remarkable game to watch.

DixieZag
04-09-2013, 05:01 PM
I agree that non-called undercuts are critically needed to be called a foul b/c it is such a dangerous play for injury. Coming down on a twisted on a back/head, an outside shot in which there is not room to come down for the shooter twisting knee/ankle.

And I think the propesity to do such a dangerous move is to really scare people from coming into the middle or shooting over someone from outside.

Really needs to be called everytime - - do people agree?

Postplayer57
04-09-2013, 06:02 PM
The way Wichita State's Baker was literally assaulted on at least two possessions in the second half against Louisville was just rotten, and to top it off they had the nerve to call the one foul on him?

bballbeachbum
04-09-2013, 06:02 PM
I agree that non-called undercuts are critically needed to be called a foul b/c it is such a dangerous play for injury. Coming down on a twisted on a back/head, an outside shot in which there is not room to come down for the shooter twisting knee/ankle.

And I think the propesity to do such a dangerous move is to really scare people from coming into the middle or shooting over someone from outside.

Really needs to be called everytime - - do people agree?

yes, whether in the paint or on the perimeter. On the blacktop that kind of stuff leads to blows. Team USA has teams do this to them all the time because they can't matchup physically

maynard g krebs
04-09-2013, 06:43 PM
I quit watching at the 4-5 minute mark, because I knew the outcome had been decided in advance due to the obvious bad calls in Lv's favor.

Looked pretty scripted to me (Burke's block, Dieng absolutely hammers I think it was Morgan after a rebound, it comes loose and goes out of bounds to Lv, Albrecht gets ridden like a rented mule from the halfcourt line when he has the defender on his hip, etc etc).

Watched the 2nd half in the gym, and everybody there that talked about it said the same thing, including a guy who refs around Seattle (hs, Jamal Crawford pro-am summer league etc.)

No integrity in the basketball business today, and really for a couple decades. Just a tv show, scripted for maximum ratings. And that sucks.

Unbiased
04-09-2013, 06:45 PM
It is really frustrating to watch a team that is touted by many for their great D when in reality they are fouling constantly. It really needs to be called. The reason they are so "good" is because they are holding, pushing and grabbing. Its almost as if the refs think they can't call all the fouls or it would disrupt the flow. But the grabbing turns this into something other then well played basketball.

You couldn't have said it better. I really believe NCAA Division One officiating allows more grabbing, bumping, pushing, and hand checking than the NBA twice fold.
Michigan was beaten up. That one play in the second where the Michigan player was undercut and fell hard while jumping for a rebound was flat out dangerous. The ref was standing three feet away and did nothing. Kerr even commented on how dangerous it was.

Terrible, terrible job by the officials.

LynetteG
04-10-2013, 06:35 AM
I won't say which ref, but when my nephew and bro-in-law saw a particular one they both thought 'oh crap' because that guy HATES Michigan. In fact, during the game, the ref told Jordan that if he had gotten a particular rebound he was going to call a foul on him. This kind of $hit sucks, that refs can get away with stuff like that and the players can't do anything about it.

LynetteG
04-10-2013, 06:37 AM
You couldn't have said it better. I really believe NCAA Division One officiating allows more grabbing, bumping, pushing, and hand checking than the NBA twice fold.
Michigan was beaten up. That one play in the second where the Michigan player was undercut and fell hard while jumping for a rebound was flat out dangerous. The ref was standing three feet away and did nothing. Kerr even commented on how dangerous it was.

Terrible, terrible job by the officials.

Burke was so sore afterwards. He was knocked to the ground HARD. We were screaming for fouls, but they weren't calling anything, which totally favored Louisville. Michigan had no chance, but were valiant in defeat. Jordan got toppled head over foot at one point as well. Sitting right there, you can really hear how hard they hit the floor and my God, those kids were taking all kinds of abuse.

U Zig, I Zag
04-10-2013, 07:01 AM
It is really frustrating to watch a team that is touted by many for their great D when in reality they are fouling constantly. It really needs to be called. The reason they are so "good" is because they are holding, pushing and grabbing. Its almost as if the refs think they can't call all the fouls or it would disrupt the flow. But the grabbing turns this into something other then well played basketball.

This.

And you know what I say? The Zags starting doing it to. Play overly aggressive, the refs aren't calling it. We need to dirty it up from Nov through April next year.

JPtheBeasta
04-10-2013, 09:55 AM
I found that play with 6:36 to go, but the foul that was called that lead to Burke's free throws was on Dieng and Hancock wasn't in the area. I was assuming there was another play that was being referenced.

Hanock was on the floor after running into Dieng, at which time he undercut Burke (it wasn't his fault, per se, but the correct call would have been the Hancock foul). I actually thought Harrell was the one that met Burke at the rim and was called for the foul. Dieng wasn't really ever in the play. That's just going from memory, though.

UABZag
04-10-2013, 10:18 AM
Hanock was on the floor after running into Dieng, at which time he undercut Burke (it wasn't his fault, per se, but the correct call would have been the Hancock foul). I actually thought Harrell was the one that met Burke at the rim and was called for the foul. Dieng wasn't really ever in the play. That's just going from memory, though.

Thanks JPTB. I didn't have the game recorded so the play I was referencing was the best I could recall. The bottom line was that the foul should have been on Hancock as he was falling and contacted/undercut Burke on the way to the rim and I believe that would have been his 4th.