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TravelinZag
04-07-2013, 10:46 AM
Yup, the smurf question again, because the Rivals 2014 list is loaded with smurfs, and GU will be looking for guards. Given, many factors to a good player: ball handling, shooting, bb IQ, defense, etc. But face it, TALL counts.

So, hypothetically, you get the top three Rivals-ranked players who are guards and 6'0 or under. Then I get the three guards ranked below your lowest pick who are 6'3 or taller. All six would be talented, four-star players. But, your three, ranked #33, 37, and 64, would stand 5'11, 5'9, and 5'9. Mine, ranked #75, 76, and 79, stand 6'6, 6'3, and 6'5.

If you make me pick from the second 100 (three stars), mine rank 107, 111, and 131, and stand 6'3, 6'3 and 6'5. Either way, can you honestly say you'd take the short guys? Of course, we don't know how any of these kids will adjust to college in the classroom or on the court, whether they'd come to Spokane, etc. An provocative illustration is all.

No Spud Webb stories, please. And before you go all Randy Newman on me, let me disclose I am in the height class I wouldn't recruit, and I love our current starting guards. Just food for thought in the future.

As Groucho said, "I wouldn't join any club that would admit me as a member."

MickMick
04-07-2013, 11:06 AM
How tall are the Louisville guards?

CaliforniaZaggin'
04-07-2013, 11:13 AM
How tall are the Louisville guards?

About the same height as Trey Burke and Shane Larkin.

U Zig, I Zag
04-07-2013, 11:53 AM
I think you can do well with smaller 1,2 guards - 5'11" to 6'1" IF they are aggressive players and creative scorers. Pangos is Pangos, he showed more creativity towards the end of the year on offense, taking the oppoorunity to get the glass when it presented itself. His D got a bit more like Craft's, using his quick hands to reach and slap a bit more. Finally taking advantage of the fact that the refs don't seem to be calling #### anymore.

Bell still seems timid, to me. He is a gamer, no doubt - on occasion saving our bacon. His D is good, always covers the other team's best guard. But something is missing. Aggressiveness, a willinginess to break down a guy and score on him? Part of it is Few's system and the other weapons we had, part of it is just Bell. I can't imagine he would get yanked if we crossovered some lesser player and scored on him.

That said, neither of those guys is Siva, Smith, Burke, Larkin, etc. Not as aggressive, not as intimating and not able to take over a game like those guys can.

They are only sophomores though, I expect big improvements from both guys. If Dower and PK can play consistent and give us the down low threat then I feel we are in a good spot.

10 games in and Bell is our top scorer then I think we will be on the right track.

DixieZag
04-07-2013, 12:03 PM
I love Bell but him leading in scoring would require Few going to Bell and saying "we need you to become our first scoring option and if you aren't taking it to the rim and firing up open jump shots, then you will sit next to me" b/c it just isn't in Bell's nature to take over by himself and give himself a role. He is the ultimate team first player to a fault and I am glad he is such b/c nothing ruins chemistry more than "me first" guys.

But, next year we will really need aggressive slashers and Bell is a great one - - just needs to be given the green light.

ZagLawGrad
04-07-2013, 12:35 PM
Siva's been in a class of his own for his size since playing at Franklin. KP, GBj and DS not in the same class.

We need the 6'4" slashers who can shoot long and hit the floaters. Draw the fouls and dish.

TravelinZag
04-07-2013, 12:57 PM
In any case, not talking about 2013-14 season; won't be a lot of change then. Focusing on class of 2014, and players who can strengthen defense.

Different rankings, same conclusion. ESPN's 60 best players for 2014 includes 25 guards. One under 6' tall. Seven 6'1 or under. Thirteen of the top 25 guards are 6'4 or taller. No coincidence.

All else equal, you take the taller player. Nothing's ever equal. So here's an example, which do you choose: A. guard ranked in the lower part of the four star players; or B. guard in the upper half of the three star players who is 4-6 inches taller than A? For me easy: both talented; give up a little talent for a lot of height.

No smurfs for the class of 2014; especially no 5'8" or 5'9" players, no matter how talented.

ZAGGED OUT
04-07-2013, 02:07 PM
In any case, not talking about 2013-14 season; won't be a lot of change then. Focusing on class of 2014, and players who can strengthen defense.

Different rankings, same conclusion. ESPN's 60 best players for 2014 includes 25 guards. One under 6' tall. Seven 6'1 or under. Thirteen of the top 25 guards are 6'4 or taller. No coincidence.

All else equal, you take the taller player. Nothing's ever equal. So here's an example, which do you choose: A. guard ranked in the lower part of the four star players; or B. guard in the upper half of the three star players who is 4-6 inches taller than A? For me easy: both talented; give up a little talent for a lot of height.

No smurfs for the class of 2014; especially no 5'8" or 5'9" players, no matter how talented.

Have you seen the players we are recruiting in the 2014 Class? They're not looking at anyone short, Perkins and Allen are both 6'4.

jim77
04-07-2013, 02:13 PM
Siva's been in a class of his own for his size since playing at Franklin. KP, GBj and DS not in the same class.

We need the 6'4" slashers who can shoot long and hit the floaters. Draw the fouls and dish.

Like Syracuse's? I wish Michigan had taller guards....whoops....looks like Michigan is moving on...short guards and all. I think size of heart counts too.

CaliforniaZaggin'
04-07-2013, 02:20 PM
Mathis Keita is tall.

webspinnre
04-07-2013, 02:39 PM
You can get away with having one short guard on the floor at a time. It starts to be trouble when you've got 2 or even 3 of them.

bartruff1
04-07-2013, 03:35 PM
I think our guards are very good and getting better...right now I would say they are in the top 5 (pair) to have played at Gonzaga..... I wouldn't trade either one for Siva...now that Baker kid from WSU....he even has the Gonzaga hair !!

Birddog
04-07-2013, 04:02 PM
I think our guards are very good and getting better...right now I would say they are in the top 5 (pair) to have played at Gonzaga..... I wouldn't trade either one for Siva...now that Baker kid from WSU....he even has the Gonzaga hair !!
Opie?

Rio Runner
04-07-2013, 04:06 PM
Height has little to do with anything. The Detroit Pistons won an NBA title with guards that were 6'1" (Isiah Thomas), 6'2" (Vinnie Johnson), and 6'3" (Joe Dumars). If your guards can play, it really doesn't matter how tall they all.

Pangos is a player. He is a good shooter, he can get to the rim, and he is a tremendous finisher around the basket. He is also automatic at the free throw line. But he is not a creator on offense -- e.g. he does not break the defense down and create easy shots for his teammates like Stockton does -- and he is slightly limited by a lack of big time athleticism.

Bell hustles, is intelligent, and can hit the open three. But he has some real limitations. He can't dribble at all -- so he can't create his own shot -- and he is a horrible finisher at the rim. I also agree with the observation that he was timid at times last year. In our two biggest games (at Butler and v. Wichita State) he was a ghost on the court, as reflected by the fact that he did not score one point in either game (granted, he missed the second half v. WSU with a injury). He will have to take a major step forward to be a real contributor to next year's team.

Stockton is a tremendous creator -- one of the best we've ever had. He has terrific vision and will make the daring play, both offensively and defensively. He can finish at the basket, and occasionally hit the open three. But he does have offensive limitations -- his shot is mediocre, he can't create his own shot, and his free throw shooting was not good, which was puzzling.

All this being said, if Bell takes a big step forward, our backcourt will be very good next year.

CDC84
04-07-2013, 04:24 PM
If Pangos, Bell and Stocks possessed big time speed and athleticism, I don't think people here would have as many concerns about how tall they are.

spike_jr
04-07-2013, 04:28 PM
I agree with Bart and I like the tandem that we have. When they were freshman, the big hurdles were turnovers and defense. I think they (especially Pangos) improved in those two categories a lot from last year. This year, I believe that they were asked to defer to the bigs on offense while taking care of the ball and playing solid D. Again, I think they did what was asked of them and did it very well.

Next year, I see them being asked to have a larger role on offense and based on past performance, I expect them to accept the challenge, improve even more, and excel. Lets hope we get a 100% healthy GB for the entire season.

As for DS, I love the kid, but he scares the #^%! out of me. A lot of high risk, high reward. He does know how to pass, initiate the offense, and is pretty good at finishing at the rim but I am truly amazed at what a poor shooter he is and especially from the foul line. IMHO he tends to cheat a little too much on D. Great kid to have as your BU point guard and he will be a fifth year senior to boot

I think we are going to see some pretty good things from KD as he matures and gets more PT.

We have good kids that are talented and smart. They all seem to put the team first. We will be fine at the guard spot for the next two years.

gonwick
04-07-2013, 04:36 PM
If Pangos, Bell and Stocks possessed big time speed and athleticism, I don't think people here would have as many concerns about how tall they are.


I think that's it.


Unless kd or Coleman can kill it in the backcourt, we will be average at best. Kp and gb are talented, but not big or athletic enough to dominate outside the WCC. Unless, of course, kp is going off from 3 on one of his "on" nights. DS wouldn't be getting major minutes on any other team in the top 25 (or top 100) last year and if he gets as many next year, it means we are in trouble.

MJ777
04-07-2013, 04:46 PM
I agree with Bart and I like the tandem that we have. When they were freshman, the big hurdles were turnovers and defense. I think they (especially Pangos) improved in those two categories a lot from last year. This year, I believe that they were asked to defer to the bigs on offense while taking care of the ball and playing solid D. Again, I think they did what was asked of them and did it very well.

Next year, I see them being asked to have a larger role on offense and based on past performance, I expect them to accept the challenge, improve even more, and excel. Lets hope we get a 100% healthy GB for the entire season.

As for DS, I love the kid, but he scares the #^%! out of me. A lot of high risk, high reward. He does know how to pass, initiate the offense, and is pretty good at finishing at the rim but I am truly amazed at what a poor shooter he is and especially from the foul line. IMHO he tends to cheat a little too much on D. Great kid to have as your BU point guard and he will be a fifth year senior to boot

I think we are going to see some pretty good things from KD as he matures and gets more PT.

We have good kids that are talented and smart. They all seem to put the team first. We will be fine at the guard spot for the next two years.

Can I suggest a lot of practice on in bounding the ball before next BB season?

cjm720
04-07-2013, 04:48 PM
#1 in the country...I'll follow coach's lead.

bartruff1
04-07-2013, 05:24 PM
Opie?

Ron Baker from Wichita, red shirt freshman guard, big old farm boy, tough as heck, scared of nothng and can (and will) shoot the three...he probably did look like Opie at that age.

I can't believe he will look like Ron Howard does now !!

IMHO Cuse had the best/big guards and I though they would win it..they got some tough calls at the end .... they pretty much dominated Mich's guards.

All things being equal, size matters...

spike_jr
04-07-2013, 05:27 PM
Can I suggest a lot of practice on in bounding the ball before next BB season?

I think that may go under the "oh crap" part of my opinion!!:D

exclusivelee
04-07-2013, 05:32 PM
I think that's it.


Unless kd or Coleman can kill it in the backcourt, we will be average at best. Kp and gb are talented, but not big or athletic enough to dominate outside the WCC. Unless, of course, kp is going off from 3 on one of his "on" nights. DS wouldn't be getting major minutes on any other team in the top 25 (or top 100) last year and if he gets as many next year, it means we are in trouble.

Hopefully Coleman and Draino step up enough to take away much of the playing time from Stocks next year.

TravelinZag
04-07-2013, 05:41 PM
One more time -- I'm NOT talking about Pangos, Bell & Stocks, but about the guys who will follow them.

Am happy the Zags are pursuing guys like Allen & Wright. Nine of the Rivals 4-star guards are 6'4" or taller, as are seven of the 3-stars. Even a couple of excellent guards at 6'2", like Perkins. Great!

However, there are 8 4-stars and 8 more 3-stars, including a couple linked with GU, who are 6'0" or under. Here's where I worry. Five of these guys are 5'9" and 2 are 5'8". We don't need these guys, ever. Arizona may want a 5'8. But envision the defensive liabilities short guys bring to a Zag team which chronically fails to defend the three?

There are a couple of smurfs who are talented & want to go to GU. Sure hope they grow, or change their minds. Go taller.

CaliforniaZaggin'
04-07-2013, 06:09 PM
Can I suggest a lot of practice on in bounding the ball before next BB season?

:vomit-smiley-007:

Birddog
04-07-2013, 06:36 PM
I remember when
http://www.paulwesterberg.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/opie03.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lk50q9Wf2h1qdlq8qo1_250.jpg

http://media.kansas.com/smedia/2013/03/26/16/01/5t2Tk.SlMa.80.jpeg

bartruff1
04-07-2013, 06:49 PM
Nailed it...

MJ777
04-07-2013, 07:00 PM
I remember when
http://www.paulwesterberg.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/opie03.jpg

http://media.kansas.com/smedia/2013/03/26/16/01/5t2Tk.SlMa.80.jpeg

I remember when that kid missed a big ft in the HS championship game, and Mr C offered him a Lifesaver.

maui zag
04-07-2013, 07:02 PM
I think that's it.


Unless kd or Coleman can kill it in the backcourt, we will be average at best. Kp and gb are talented, but not big or athletic enough to dominate outside the WCC. Unless, of course, kp is going off from 3 on one of his "on" nights. DS wouldn't be getting major minutes on any other team in the top 25 (or top 100) last year and if he gets as many next year, it means we are in trouble.

DS should never have had the minutes he had this year, Few would have been better served to have given those mins to KD, and had him ready to play for the tournament. IMHO.....

WallaWallaZag
04-07-2013, 10:57 PM
i'm not a fan of the current three smurf line-up, but more due to the lack of athleticism than height. as far 3 point defense goes, i think it is as much a system thing than a personnel thing...i don't remember the zags 3 point defense being great when it was steven gray and matt bouldin in the backcourt.

MDABE80
04-08-2013, 12:55 AM
i'm not a fan of the current three smurf line-up, but more due to the lack of athleticism than height. as far 3 point defense goes, i think it is as much a system thing than a personnel thing...i don't remember the zags 3 point defense being great when it was steven gray and matt bouldin in the backcourt.

This about covers it. Hard to find 6 ft 4 in quick guards who can run a team, jump out of the gym, pass, find the lanes to drive, and have super speed BUT with an incoming sense of solid basketall.
Rare birds indeed. An ideal team is toug to scout and tougher to sign.
It's life. We can do very well with our lead guards for the next two seasons. KO leaves and things get hard because inside outside game will be reduced. We have some good ones.book it.
Meanwhile though AND restricitng this conversation to guards....WE have superior ones right here and now. DS is a good BU for the point. We have solid athletes at the 3 AS WELL. THAT 3 HAS AND IS A CHRONIC oooops...(caps)..problem.
Nothing is ever solved on this board. Even with the best logic, somebody doesn't like some things.
Two good guards working together for the past two years.??...who wouldn't take that? Consistency is around the corner for us....

SWZag
04-08-2013, 01:00 AM
I wonder if anyone call this man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggsy_Bogues) a smurf and that he was too short.

Or possibly this gentleman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spud_Webb).

Maybe this Hall Of Famer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvin_Murphy) also.

SWZag

Birddog
04-08-2013, 05:47 AM
I remember when
http://www.paulwesterberg.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/opie03.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lk50q9Wf2h1qdlq8qo1_250.jpg

http://media.kansas.com/smedia/2013/03/26/16/01/5t2Tk.SlMa.80.jpeg
Thanks for the memory jog, I reworked it.

MDABE80
04-08-2013, 09:16 AM
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0397171/

Ikancagin
04-08-2013, 01:41 PM
Quetin Hall was used to bothering big guards.

titopoet
04-08-2013, 03:15 PM
One more time -- I'm NOT talking about Pangos, Bell & Stocks, but about the guys who will follow them.

Am happy the Zags are pursuing guys like Allen & Wright. Nine of the Rivals 4-star guards are 6'4" or taller, as are seven of the 3-stars. Even a couple of excellent guards at 6'2", like Perkins. Great!

However, there are 8 4-stars and 8 more 3-stars, including a couple linked with GU, who are 6'0" or under. Here's where I worry. Five of these guys are 5'9" and 2 are 5'8". We don't need these guys, ever. Arizona may want a 5'8. But envision the defensive liabilities short guys bring to a Zag team which chronically fails to defend the three?

There are a couple of smurfs who are talented & want to go to GU. Sure hope they grow, or change their minds. Go taller.

If you get a chance to sign Jordan McLaughlin (6'0") you go for it. No questions asked.

OZZY
04-08-2013, 03:46 PM
It's more about the size of the fight in the dog, than the size of the dog in the fight....

Give me a smaller player who has passion, skill and drive over a player who has physical size, but an unwillingness to mix it up.

Look at Mike Hart wrestling rebounds away from guys 5-6 inches taller than him, look at the 6'3" Baker kid from the Shockers with that last second tip in at the end of the first half....reached over Elias and swatted it in rather than giving up on it.

titopoet
04-09-2013, 08:06 AM
It's more about the size of the fight in the dog, than the size of the dog in the fight....

Give me a smaller player who has passion, skill and drive over a player who has physical size, but an unwillingness to mix it up.

Look at Mike Hart wrestling rebounds away from guys 5-6 inches taller than him, look at the 6'3" Baker kid from the Shockers with that last second tip in at the end of the first half....reached over Elias and swatted it in rather than giving up on it.

You are right. What was funny is that last night championship came down to a fight among "smurfs" Burke and Silva were going at it. Just taking one attribute and not looking at the whole really is not good when evaluating a player. Quickness less important than height? BB IQ or handles or motor or leadership? That is why coaches get paid the big bucks and get the axe so easily.

Vanzagger
04-09-2013, 11:31 AM
To me it came to Dieng's 6 assists. When you have a big distributor like Bird, Magic, or King James it just make the game easier when it counts the most.

Luke Hancock, playing in the right position, scoring 14 straight did not hurt Louisville's chances either.

cbbfanatic
04-09-2013, 01:54 PM
Height has little to do with anything. The Detroit Pistons won an NBA title with guards that were 6'1" (Isiah Thomas), 6'2" (Vinnie Johnson), and 6'3" (Joe Dumars). If your guards can play, it really doesn't matter how tall they all.



i just love when people use the exception to prove the rule...

if the pistons did it in the pro game 30 years ago, that just MUST be a viable road map to success (lets all conveniently ignore/forget the vast majority of the sample size when the above is NOT the case)...

SunDevilGolfZag
04-09-2013, 04:49 PM
Besides athleticism and all that other stuff, cerebral under pressure in a tight game is also a good guard skill

willandi
04-09-2013, 07:15 PM
I wonder if anyone call this man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muggsy_Bogues) a smurf and that he was too short.

Or possibly this gentleman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spud_Webb).

Maybe this Hall Of Famer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvin_Murphy) also.

SWZag

Great players all, but as Travelingzag has said 'He isn't asking about current (and I would presume, past) guards, but future ones. As they say in the stockmarket, 'Past performance is no guarantee of future returns'!



OUCH!!!! I bit my tongue!

willandi
04-09-2013, 07:22 PM
Luke Hancock, playing in the right position, scoring 14 straight did not hurt Louisville's chances either.

As was said in another thread, Hancock under cutting a Michigan player, and having the foul called on some-one else, avoiding his second early in the game, probably didn't hurt either.

I have to say, it's all hearsay to me. I didn't watch another game after the Zag loss.

OZZY
04-09-2013, 07:59 PM
i just love when people use the exception to prove the rule...

if the pistons did it in the pro game 30 years ago, that just MUST be a viable road map to success (lets all conveniently ignore/forget the vast majority of the sample size when the above is NOT the case)...

Yes, but the exceptions to the rule are what makes great "under the radar" recruiters..........how else could a small Jesuit University in the backwoods be so successful for over a decade.

:)