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gamagin
04-03-2013, 07:50 PM
(note: Flynn, a GU grad, longtime UPI reporter and executive, is a founder and was publisher of the Puget Sound Business Journal before going into private business consulting in Seattle. His blog, Flynn's Harp, has a couple thousand scribers, I believe. I found some interesting stuff in this article, including some Catholic school income figures and comparisons. I know this writer well. I know he knows many of the highest echelon GU movers and shakers. I am positive he checked with several of them before offering this educated guess about the possible future of the Zags bkb program. So while it may not turn out to be true, I think it is fair to say this is a good snapshot of the ongoing discussion, at this fluid time, from several of the horses mouths. fwiw)

Big East Conference, despite distances, may lure Gonzaga basketball to where prestige, money await

By Mike Flynn

The rise of Gonzaga to number-one ranking among college basketball teams and its early plunge into NCAA tournament oblivion sparked interest and attention beyond the usual sports-fan ranks. And so will the possible next chapter for the little Spokane school, if it successfully pursues membership in a reorganized Big East Conference, where media riches can abound.

If, Gonzaga exits the West Coast Conference, as is being increasingly rumored on both sides of the country, much of the conversation would focus on the role athletic success has come to play in not only the image but also the broader financial success of smaller private universities.

What's become known in recent weeks as the Catholic 7 group of top-tier basketball powers is splitting from the football-playing members of the 34-year-old Big East Conference at the end of June to form its own conference, which will retain the Big East name. Gonzaga has reportedly reached out to officials of the new Big East to indicate an interest in becoming a member.

That may come as a shock to many Gonzaga basketball fans, but not to those who know that Bulldogs coach Mark Few has wanted out of the WCC for a number of years. And as the financial picture offered by membership in the Big East sinks in, there's likely to be growing pressure to work out the geographic challenges and make the move to a conference where media revenue can provide riches.

The Catholic 7 schools -- DePaul, Georgetown, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova and Marquette -- will become a 10-team league by adding Butler (as the only non-Catholic university but a private school with high academic standing), Xavier and Creighton before the start of next season.
In 2014-15, the new Big East is expected to add two more teams, with Dayton and St. Louis the leading candidates to join and thus create a 12-member alignment.

Gonzaga, which reportedly spent $5.3 million on all aspects of the basketball program and had revenue of $6.1 million (that was two years ago, the most recent year for which figures are available), would rank in the middle of the Big East pack in both categories.

Marquette, with $10.3 million in basketball expenses and $15.6 million in revenue, and Georgetown, at $8.6 million and $9.5 million, top the Big East teams, though Villanova had $8.0 million in revenue and Xavier, a Jesuit university in Cincinnati, had revenues of $11.2 million.

The figures come from the U.S. Department of Education, which requires NCAA schools to report what's called "equality in athletics" information, and were reported last October in the Memphis Business Journal, which did an exhaustive review of the numbers and reported the rankings.

You can search "NCAA college basketball expenses" and find a CNN breakdown of all basketball revenue and expenses for the 2008-09 season, though CNN notes that comparison between basketball revenues and profits "is interesting, but not precise." That's because schools have latitude in their filings and may assign revenue and expenses to different sports, meaning schools that play football may skew the basketball information, but that's far less likely among these non-football schools.

Gonzaga's expenditure and revenue totals are well beyond schools in the WCC, but stack up comparatively well with major western schools, including many of the Pac-12 schools. Figures reported by Washington State, Oregon and Oregon State and University of California showed expense and revenue similar to Gonzaga's attributed to men's basketball.

Those close to the Gonzaga basketball program are well aware that several years ago, Few, wanted to become an independent. But because the conference had let it be known that other sports wouldn't be welcome to stay in the WCC if Gonzaga exited for basketball, the idea was set aside

There's no official comment from either Gonzaga or the Big East members on a possible role for Gonzaga in the basketball-driven new alliance of Catholic schools. But sports bloggers have begun to toss out the possibility.

Except for the challenge of distance, Gonzaga would be viewed as a logical member of the group. And a longtime friend of mine at Marquette observed "Gonzaga would add so much to this conference."

Distance remains the challenge to overcome in any discussions going on about Gonzaga and the Big East, given the fact that the closest school would be Omaha, once Creighton joins the conference.
-cont-

gamagin
04-03-2013, 07:52 PM
But the fact a number of trustees got together several years ago to put up $150,000 each to allow Few to charter flights for the team's trips rather than the tedious and draining commercial travel would ease some of the challenge of distance.

Seattle businessman Jack McCann, a 17-year member of Gonzaga's Board of Trustees, who is among those involved in supporting the charter-flights, says it came about when concern by some trustees that Few might be lured to another school with a big-money offer talked with the coach about what they could do for him.

"In typical fashion, Few said 'I'm not worried about me, but I am concerned for my guys and the drain of travel,'" recalled McCann, who declined to directly address the Big East rumors.

But with that arrangement to help players with travel challenges by putting up the money for charter flights, the trustees may have, without specifically intending it, set the stage for Gonzaga to accept any offer to join the Big East.

No matter its hoop success over the past 15 years, Gonzaga has been routinely described as a successful "mid-major" team, a description that basically describes the few schools like Gonzaga that have achieved success despite being in conferences that aren't quite big time.

All that would change, in both image and income, for Gonzaga with membership in the Big East.
#

ZagLawGrad
04-03-2013, 07:55 PM
Count me in on a move like that.

Section 116
04-03-2013, 08:01 PM
Thanks Gamagin, that was very interesting. I would love to play those teams home and home every year!

VinnyZag
04-03-2013, 08:25 PM
Can you give us a link to this blog?

I wonder if Mr. Flynn has any indication that the Big East is interested in Gonzaga? That's what's missing here. Why would they want Gonzaga? Would they expand to 14 teams, just to accommodate a school that's a continent away from their existing members?

Do we have any reason to believe that the Big East is interested, other than a couple of sentences in an ESPN.com report from two months ago?

KStyles
04-03-2013, 08:29 PM
Can you give us a link to this blog?

I wonder if Mr. Flynn has any indication that the Big East is interested in Gonzaga? That's what's missing here. Why would they want Gonzaga? Would they expand to 14 teams, just to accommodate a school that's a continent away from their existing members?

Do we have any reason to believe that the Big East is interested, other than a couple of sentences in an ESPN.com report from two months ago?

I'd read it as Gonzaga would possibly take the 11th or 12th spot from Dayton or St. Louis, rather than the league expanding to 14 teams. Who knows though.

Oregonzagnut
04-03-2013, 09:15 PM
I'll believe it when I see it.

sittingon50
04-03-2013, 09:36 PM
Bad idea, IMO.

Unless they start using wormholes to help with travel, the STUDENT athletes will be missing more classes. And we're not talking about just Men's BB. If they pull out, the WCC has indicated in the past that all of GU's varsity sport's get kicked to the curb. They gonna' join the Big Sky? Would the Big Sky take 'em?

Bottom line; we're talking about a boatload more of D1 athletes than the 13 scholarship players on the Men's BB team.

Bad idea.

Zag 77
04-03-2013, 10:00 PM
I will pay attention to Mr. Flynn when he gives logical solutions to some of the few issues that Sitting raises (and there are several others), then maybe I might pay attention.

Beating a dead horse.:horse:

roundup
04-03-2013, 10:05 PM
If GU can find someone (anyone) to take their other teams, they have to go. This is an awesome opportunity to play in a hoops first league with like minded (Catholic) schools. I dream SMC would be taken as a travel partner, but that is truly a pipe dream :)

Norcalzag
04-03-2013, 10:45 PM
Sittingon50 raises the question of whether Gonzaga could become a member of the Big Sky Conference for sports other than basketball. Why not? GU was a charter member of the Big Sky, as was Idaho, which has recently been allowed to rejoin for all sports except football. (I think Idaho would be better off playing football in the Big Sky, but that's another conversation...) I don't know exactly how Gonzaga lines up with the Big Sky in terms of other sports -- I don't think the Big Sky has baseball, for example -- but I do think Gonzaga would be competitive in such sports as soccer and volleyball.

bartruff1
04-04-2013, 04:11 AM
I'll believe it when I see it.

There was nothing new in that article..except some speculation about what " Few Wants" to support his theory.

I won't believe it, when I see it...complete nonsense.

Hoopaholic
04-04-2013, 05:22 AM
Take a look at the other sports travel schedule now and honestly would not be any different......track does invitationals no change there until regionals then it is single weekend

Golf does invitationals. No change there until regional then it's single weekend


Volleyball would only need to travel to big east 4 times

Have you looked at baseball they already travel everywhere


The added money for tv revenue. Ncaa money may easily off set the limited extra length of travel costs


The second biggest issue would be secur ing the veterans memorial arena for home games. Both politically as well as actual dates and revenue control

THE reason why it ain't working out in my opinion is lack of a quality reasonable travel partner. There is no way this could occur unless two games ( no matter the sport) is scheduled per trip......st Mary too far away...our only reasonable partners would be Portland or Seattle university. And right now neither of those programs provide any strength to the situation

Sell out arena for 10 home games gives you approximately double revenue for season ticket

Zagger
04-04-2013, 06:07 AM
There's a reason the Big East is called the Big EAST. It is in the East. We may be a skipped stone's throw from Idaho but ..... we're not in the East. It is too far to travel - end of story.

But, wouldn't surprise me if some conference shuffling started on the West side of the good old USA. And, money isn't everything. The Zags are doing quite well. They've proved that they can reach #1 from within the WCC. IMHO & crystal ball - I see the Zags garnering an ever increasing difficulty of schedule and some Big name teams coming to both the Kennel and the Arena to play the Zags.

Go Zags!

BJZags
04-04-2013, 06:17 AM
Spokane, if I remember correctly, is on the eastern side of Washington state, so it makes some sense to join the Big East.

bartruff1
04-04-2013, 06:24 AM
I think Butler and Creighton made a mistake... they are essentially one trick ponies and are not in a major media market..they could be also rans in that league .... if they expand, it makes more sense to add a midwest team like St Louis.. but...what do I know... I wish them nothing but the best...

rijman
04-04-2013, 06:33 AM
I wasn't aware that Few was so interested in leaving the WCC.

If joining the BE was a possibility, I liked the idea of St. Mary's coming with and Notre Dame being a member. ND is out and who knows if St. Mary's would be willing or invited if GU was invited.

The BE will be a very good league and I think the Zags being part of a conference with those caliber of teams would be great for basketball, I just don't see this as a good fit for the GU given the travel and other sports teams issues.

gu03alum
04-04-2013, 06:35 AM
hey, don't be killing my dream of watching Gonzaga play once a year at the Verizon Center.

GUZag08
04-04-2013, 07:04 AM
No screw this. Lets stick with playing Pepperdine San Diego and Portland to help us not get prepared for the NCAA tourney.

I mean whats really the difference between these schools and Georgetown Marquette and Butler?

And who cares that recruiting would blow up, this is a terrible idea!

cjm720
04-04-2013, 07:17 AM
When was that written?

Nice piece but I thought it was known that we approached them...I guess the point is that we're still in the picture. Also of light was Few's want to get out of the WCC...haven't seen that in publicly stated.

Thx Gam.

webspinnre
04-04-2013, 07:33 AM
The thing missing in this story is if they're interested in us. If not, doesn't matter how much we speculate about our interest.

cjm720
04-04-2013, 07:56 AM
When was that written?

Nice piece but I thought it was known that we approached them...I guess the point is that we're still in the picture. Also of light was Few's want to get out of the WCC...haven't seen that in publicly stated.

Thx Gam.

Writte 4-3, posted 4-4-2013

http://emikeflynn.com/blog/213/flynn39s-harp-is-gonzaga-eyeing-big-east-move-4-3-/

Thx again, Gam. I'm now a subscriber too.

ZagLawGrad
04-04-2013, 07:59 AM
Time to upgrade, either BE or MWC. Just get it done.

titopoet
04-04-2013, 08:04 AM
I think Butler and Creighton made a mistake... they are essentially one trick ponies and are not in a major media market..they could be also rans in that league .... if they expand, it makes more sense to add a midwest team like St Louis.. but...what do I know... I wish them nothing but the best...

While not being in a major media market may apply to Creighton, though Omaha is not as small as many think, Butler is in Indianapolis the 25 largest and certainly larger than Milwaukee, home of Marquette, another one trick pony. In fact the new Big East is a made up of one trick ponies... Basketball. Butler and to a lesser extent Creighton have become national brands (as has Gonzaga) they may have time adjusting, but both will do better than say a Seton Hall in trying to be competitive in the new league, because good players want to go where they can compete. Both got invites to the big east because of what they bring to the table, programs that have a national appeal.

bartruff1
04-04-2013, 08:38 AM
I mean they have not established themselves as national programs ( Media ).... if Stevens leaves Butler ???.........when Doug leaves Creighton...there was a long time between Paul Silas and Mcdermott....

I don't think they will be competitive...you have a diffent opinion...we shall see..

Ezag
04-04-2013, 08:41 AM
No screw this. Lets stick with playing Pepperdine San Diego and Portland to help us not get prepared for the NCAA tourney.

I mean whats really the difference between these schools and Georgetown Marquette and Butler?

And who cares that recruiting would blow up, this is a terrible idea!

:lmao:

DADoZAG
04-04-2013, 08:42 AM
I wasn't aware that Few was so interested in leaving the WCC.

I don't think it's as much about leaving the WCC as it is improving his program, and Coach said as much on the Mark Few Show when the breakup of the Big East and creation of the “Catholic Conference” was first announced.

There are some that are satisfied being champion of what the nation considers a middling league, winning that leagues tourney. There are some that are satisfied with just getting to the NCAA tourney every or even most years.

I'm not demeaning that satisfaction and am not demeaning those feats.

I just don't think Mark Few is satisfied with that.

Kudos to the man...

Go ZAGS!

DixieZag
04-04-2013, 08:45 AM
This sooo feels like picking up our square peg and pounding it harder into that little round hole.

Still, there have been a thousand other things that I would never have thought they could accomplish at GU.

Having to play their conference games in the Spokane Arena though? Before they could sign on, there would have to be a way to reconfigure the arena seating so as to allow the Kennel club to be within a 3 pt shot b/c it just isn't "Gonzaga" without the KClub.

Lots of questions, WCC seems less and less of an answer.

McZag
04-04-2013, 08:54 AM
I'll believe it when I see it.

Me too. I would LOVE to eat some serious crow on this one and will dance with the egg on my face but I do not see this happening at all.

Our conference affliation has to do with the size of our entire athletic program. Title 9 means flying the gals to these places too. Are we to leave the gals in the WCC? I don't think that would fly with the NCAA. Do we leave baseball in the WCC as well?

There's also the issue of the size of K2. These schools have fans that can afford to travel and like to do so. The games would need to be moved to the arena to accomodate them which begs the question why did we build K2??

Too big of a stretch folks but please show me why I am wrong because I would love to see it happen!

ZaginLaw
04-04-2013, 09:02 AM
Get busy living or get busy dying.

GU needs to move forward. Other WCC teams have shown they can't sustain success. Westphal was adamant he could mimic GU. He and others haven't. To me SMC's violations and lack of close game preparedness were the straw that broke the camels back.

IMO, OSU >> GU in close games due to the league not necessarily talent.

bartruff1
04-04-2013, 09:11 AM
Mark Few has never said he is unhappy with the WCC or that he wants to leave it...in fact, he has said the the WCC has been good for Gonzaga... " We are happy with where we are at but will will monitor what it going on..."

You can speculate (guess) all you want for your own purposes and that and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks...

CDC84
04-04-2013, 09:12 AM
Butler isn't a one trick pony. They have proven they can survive multiple coaching changes....Matta, Lickliter, etc. The beat just goes on. They were making sweet 16's before Stevens took over.

The only way I see Stevens leaving Butler is if Duke comes calling once Coach K leaves. With the new conference affiliation, they would likely find a high level replacement if Stevens bolted, whether in house or outside the family.

rijman
04-04-2013, 09:19 AM
No screw this. Lets stick with playing Pepperdine San Diego and Portland to help us not get prepared for the NCAA tourney.

I mean whats really the difference between these schools and Georgetown Marquette and Butler?

So you're concerned about the WCC not properly preparing GU for the NCAA tourney? Butler made back to back finals from their conf, Wichita State made FF from their conf, do you have to be in a major conference to get properly prepared for the NCAA tourney? Ohio St was dominated by Wichita St and by then they knew who they were and what they were capable of and still they were down big most of the game. Wisconsin lost in the 1st round and they were 5-1 vs. Indiana and Michigan this season. Is a tougher conference the answer for better NCAA results? Not necessarily.

bartruff1
04-04-2013, 09:21 AM
Butler isn't a one trick pony. They have proven they can survive multiple coaching changes....Matta, Lickliter, etc. The beat just goes on. They were making sweet 16's before Stevens took over.

The only way I see Stevens leaving Butler is if Duke comes calling once Coach K leaves. With the new conference affiliation, they would likely find a high level replacement if Stevens bolted, whether in house or outside the family.

I am talking about the Media...my impression is that Butler was not the subject of a National Broadcast till their runs to the final four ....

They did ok in the A-10...but I don't think they will do ok in the Big East... we shall see.

No one knows the future...when all (most) of your eggs are in one basket things can change overnight.

jazzdelmar
04-04-2013, 09:22 AM
CDC--The only way I see Stevens leaving Butler is if Duke comes calling once Coach K leaves. With the new conference affiliation, they would likely find a high level replacement if Stevens bolted, whether in house or outside the family.


you can bet on it.....five years, tops. all the coach k progeny are flops.

thespywhozaggedme
04-04-2013, 09:22 AM
I mean they have not established themselves as national programs ( Media ).... if Stevens leaves Butler ???.........when Doug leaves Creighton...there was a long time between Paul Silas and Mcdermott....

I don't think they will be competitive...you have a diffent opinion...we shall see..

Uh.............they went to back to back national championships. That's two more than we've ever been to. Butler is a national powerhouse at this point.

DADoZAG
04-04-2013, 09:45 AM
Mark Few has never said he is unhappy with the WCC or that he wants to leave it...in fact, he has said the the WCC has been good for Gonzaga...

You can speculate (guess) all you want for your own purposes and that and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks...

What he said on the Mark Few Show (and I'm paraphrazing by memory, so take it for what you will) was that Gonzaga needed to be prepared to do what was best for the Gonzaga and if that meant changing conferences it meant changing conferences.

ZN or others might be able to provide a bit more info, there was even a thread about it.

Go ZAGS!

PS: Don't forget to tip when you buy coffee. Getting personal additives might effect the flavor.

Ezag
04-04-2013, 09:58 AM
Coffee was stagnant and couldn't improve for decades until it changed conferences and look where the Starbucks conference took it....once the coffee conference improved so did the competition and the revenue. Where would the Dutch Bros be without the elite Starbucks conference? We went from paying 50 cents to $5 for coffee...now that's profit!

bartruff1
04-04-2013, 10:00 AM
Uh.............they went to back to back national championships. That's two more than we've ever been to. Butler is a national powerhouse at this point.

At this point...I don't think they have finished in the top 35 since...many of their players are returning next year...I would be happy (eager) to bet you (or anyone else) they don't finish in the top thirty next year.

IMHO they will have to get Big Ten players to compete in the Beast...I don't think they can...

They have found excellent coaches in the past (who have moved on) , but that doesn't mean that they can get a established succesful head coach to come there if Stevens leaves... they will have to fine another...not easy...

IMHO they are a mid major...not a powerhouse at all..... I can think of dozens of programs that have been sucessful for 2-5 years.

cjm720
04-04-2013, 10:30 AM
What he said on the Mark Few Show (and I'm paraphrazing by memory, so take it for what you will) was that Gonzaga needed to be prepared to do what was best for the Gonzaga and if that meant changing conferences it meant changing conferences.

This is my recollection too, but Flynn seemed to be referring to comments not said to media.

sittingon50
04-04-2013, 10:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grbSQ6O6kbs

bartruff1
04-04-2013, 10:42 AM
This is my recollection too, but Flynn seemed to be referring to comments not said to media.

He said " We are happy..." ...he did not say we are unhappy... he did not say we want to leave...he said we will monitor and will do what is best for Gonzaga... the fricking point is that HE IS NOT UNHAPPY BEING IN THE WCC... HE DIDN'T SAY HE WANTED TO LEAVE.

Saxon_zag
04-04-2013, 01:24 PM
He said " We are happy..." ...he did not say we are unhappy... he did not say we want to leave...he said we will monitor and will do what is best for Gonzaga... the fricking point is that HE IS NOT UNHAPPY BEING IN THE WCC... HE DIDN'T SAY HE WANTED TO LEAVE.

He did however complain about the wcc changing the tourney format to give us 2 more rpi killer games next year. GTFO OF THE WCC leave SMC in it to forever beat on SCU. Godisagael would probably still have more posts about the zags than the gaels but it would at least be a start

bartruff1
04-04-2013, 01:25 PM
He did however complain about the wcc changing the tourney format to give us 2 more rpi killer games next year. GTFO OF THE WCC leave SMC in it to forever beat on SCU. Godisagael would probably still have more posts about the zags than the gaels but it would at least be a start....I have never heard him say that...the Google can't find it..you must be talking about AJ, he keeps track of all that stuff..

jpn17
04-04-2013, 03:06 PM
There's a reason the Big East is called the Big EAST. It is in the East. We may be a skipped stone's throw from Idaho but ..... we're not in the East. It is too far to travel - end of story.

But, wouldn't surprise me if some conference shuffling started on the West side of the good old USA. And, money isn't everything. The Zags are doing quite well. They've proved that they can reach #1 from within the WCC. IMHO & crystal ball - I see the Zags garnering an ever increasing difficulty of schedule and some Big name teams coming to both the Kennel and the Arena to play the Zags.

Go Zags!

I disagree. Spokane to San Diego is about 1000 miles. Spokane to Philly is about 2000 miles. Figure that a charter will cruise at about 500 mph or so and you add just 2 hours to the trip. Also consider the fact that so many of those schools back east are so close together that you could bus it to the second game if you really wanted to. And you're only making the trip 4 times a year.

The biggest hurdle, as others have said, is getting a second team on the west coast, so that when other teams travel to Gonzaga they have someone else to play. Saint Mary's would fit that bill if they would be willing to join the conference. If not Gonzaga would have to find someone else the Big East would be willing to accept.

VinnyZag
04-04-2013, 03:13 PM
I disagree. Spokane to San Diego is about 1000 miles. Spokane to Philly is about 2000 miles. Figure that a charter will cruise at about 500 mph or so and you add just 2 hours to the trip. Also consider the fact that so many of those schools back east are so close together that you could bus it to the second game if you really wanted to. And you're only making the trip 4 times a year.

The biggest hurdle, as others have said, is getting a second team on the west coast, so that when other teams travel to Gonzaga they have someone else to play. Saint Mary's would fit that bill if they would be willing to join the conference. If not Gonzaga would have to find someone else the Big East would be willing to accept.

I ask again: Why would the Big East schools want to fly 2,000 miles to Spokane?

mgadfly
04-04-2013, 03:17 PM
I disagree. Spokane to San Diego is about 1000 miles. Spokane to Philly is about 2000 miles. Figure that a charter will cruise at about 500 mph or so and you add just 2 hours to the trip. Also consider the fact that so many of those schools back east are so close together that you could bus it to the second game if you really wanted to. And you're only making the trip 4 times a year.

The biggest hurdle, as others have said, is getting a second team on the west coast, so that when other teams travel to Gonzaga they have someone else to play. Saint Mary's would fit that bill if they would be willing to join the conference. If not Gonzaga would have to find someone else the Big East would be willing to accept.

I agree with this. NY to Omaha is going to be 3.5 to 4 hours direct, and NY to Spokane is going to be 4.5 to 5 hours direct. Is that prohibitive?

The key would be having a team out west to pair so that they could fly out Wednesday night after classes, play GU on Thursday night, fly to wherever on Friday morning, play a Saturday early game, and jet back East. 2 to 2.5 extra hours on a 3 day trip doesn't seem to be the real hurdle.

ZagLawGrad
04-04-2013, 03:32 PM
I agree with this. NY to Omaha is going to be 3.5 to 4 hours direct, and NY to Spokane is going to be 4.5 to 5 hours direct. Is that prohibitive?

The key would be having a team out west to pair so that they could fly out Wednesday night after classes, play GU on Thursday night, fly to wherever on Friday morning, play a Saturday early game, and jet back East. 2 to 2.5 extra hours on a 3 day trip doesn't seem to be the real hurdle.

Bus rides took longer in earlier years.

Get the courtship going and find a way to get it done.

Other sports may need to take a backseat in a different league. Reality.

229SintoZag
04-04-2013, 03:37 PM
I ask again: Why would the Big East schools want to fly 2,000 miles to Spokane?

This is easy: to compensate for the loss of Notre Dame, Syracuse, Boston College, and Pitt to the ACC.

The new Big East aint what the old Big East was. Georgetown and Marquette are legit schools on the hardwood with relevant recent success sustained over many years. (Even if we overlook Georgetown's annual first round exits since 2007 to relative nobodies). Seton Hall, Providence, and DePaul--not so much. Even Villanova isn't what it used to be.

Gonzaga would easily be in the top 3 programs in the conference from day one and would immeasurably improve the odds that the conference "sticks" as a legit force in hoops. Gonzaga would also bring a nice geographic diversity sufficient to make the conference relevant nationally in terms of geographic imprint, which I assume is an advantage for TV deals. (More so if we can get BYU to come with us).

Staying relevant is worth one cross country trip per year.

BobZag
04-04-2013, 03:40 PM
I ask again: Why would the Big East schools want to fly 2,000 miles to Spokane?

Which takes longer: Fly 2000-2500 miles or bus 700-800 miles. Zags used to bus to towns like Bozeman, Boise, Pocatello, etc. Took a looonnng time.

gamagin
04-04-2013, 03:43 PM
I ask again: Why would the Big East schools want to fly 2,000 miles to Spokane?

(2) more money.

Bogozags
04-04-2013, 03:59 PM
Just to add a few cents to this conversation…

I personally would love to have both GU’s basketball teams play in the BE; however, IMO I do not see the Big East Conference (BE) extending an invite to GU:

The cost and travel time between Spokane and the other BE schools would of course be the main concern for the BE. Two BE schools would have to travel to Spokane each week just to play one game at GU. Even if there was another school to be a travel partner with GU such as BYU. I have eliminated the rest of the WCC: Seattle and Portland are just not competitive at this point in time and SMC has probation issues. SCU and USF could conceivably be considered but do not think the BE would want to include these lower mid-major programs. Even if BYU would be considered distance would also be an issue but it is closer to Spokane; however, one of the down sides of extending an invite to BYU is no games on Sundays.

Game days would certainly have to change from Thursday/Saturday to either Wednesday/Saturday or Tuesday Saturday to accommodate the long trips for BE schools to Salt Lake and Spokane vice trips to Creighton University located in Omaha, NE:
Miles from BE School to: Salt Lake, UT Spokane, WA Omaha, NE

Providence 2350 2700 1430
St. Johns 2160 2500 1240
Seton Hall 2140 2480 1210
Villanova 2140 2480 1210
Georgetown 2080 2430 1150
Butler 1610 1940 610
Xavier 1630 2050 720
Depaul 1390 1740 470
Marquette 1440 1660 510
Creighton 930 1370 n/a

From the chart above you can compare the travel distances from each school to Salt Lake/Spokane, which are almost two to three times the distance from a BE school to Omaha. Each school has to cross at least two time zones and most three. The same travel issues would also apply to both GU and BYU. All schools would sure be maximizing their “airline miles” commuting to and from BYU/GU.

How would the scheduling occur for the men’s and women’s teams, since we only have one airplane for GU’s use? Would the women’s games be scheduled on the same dates as the men’s team at the same BE school? This would sure limit scheduling of women’s games.

One can easily see the logistical/financial burden for GU to be a member of the BE; therefore, it is unlikely GU will be invited to join the Big East Conference. What about TV revenue? Would GU have to share its TV revenue from ESPN and Root Sports? If that were the case, wouldn’t that affect GU’s bottom line?

However, it sure would be nice to get 11 quality name brand opponents to visit Spokane each year and this would not include any of the OOC games.

As much as I would like to see GU get into a stronger basketball conference, I don’t think the Big East Conference is the answer. I feel the MWC might be much more workable, IF they would be interested in a non-football school.

bartruff1
04-04-2013, 04:21 PM
I am afraid that those of you that are unhappy about being in the WCC are going to be....well....unhappy...and to be honest, I am not afraid...

In any case, you can still get a cup of coffee for $5...

Or maybe a beer to cry in.

TheGonzagaFactor
04-04-2013, 04:23 PM
At this point...I don't think they have finished in the top 35 since...many of their players are returning next year...I would be happy (eager) to bet you (or anyone else) they don't finish in the top thirty next year.

IMHO they will have to get Big Ten players to compete in the Beast...I don't think they can...

They have found excellent coaches in the past (who have moved on) , but that doesn't mean that they can get a established succesful head coach to come there if Stevens leaves... they will have to fine another...not easy...

IMHO they are a mid major...not a powerhouse at all..... I can think of dozens of programs that have been sucessful for 2-5 years.

blah blah blah TWO FINAL FOURS!

If Stevens hasn't left by now, why would he now that they have moved into a power conference (again)?

bartruff1
04-04-2013, 05:02 PM
blah blah blah TWO FINAL FOURS!

If Stevens hasn't left by now, why would he now that they have moved into a power conference (again)?

Does that mean you want to bet ?

Cush
04-04-2013, 07:32 PM
While I think it's exciting to think about playing yearly home and home games with Georgetown, Marquette, etc, I just don't see this going anywhere, and with the entire athletic department and the student-athletes at GU in mind, the biggest hurdle here has absolutely nothing to do with basketball.

The Gonzaga University athletic department has 16 sports with more than 300 athletes among them, and only one of those teams gets a chartered flight to all their away competitions. You can't be in the West Coast Conference without basketball, and it's highly unlikely (although I'll admit I'm only making an assumption here) that a conference like the Big Sky is going to take on the other 15 sports without football or basketball. What would they have to gain?

The WCC is the perfect conference for the other 15 sports, and I'm not convinced it's a terrible fit for the men's basketball team either. We managed a #1 ranking in both polls and a #1 seed in the West bracket of the NCAA tournament this year. As far as regular season play goes, it does not get much better than that. Does the WCC best prepare the basketball team for post-season play? Is it in the best interest of the fans who pay the money and park their butts in the gym to watch the team play Pepperdine, LMU, and USD? I think the former is certainly open for debate and the latter is a reasonable point of discussion, but I think there is probably a better solution to improve our tournament representation that doesn't come at the expense of 300+ athletes who represent our school. Personally, I think the discussion about basketball in the Big East can't begin until their is a realistic and reasonable solution for those teams. While the basketball team drives the ship, the ship ceases to exist without everyone else.

ehk 21
04-04-2013, 10:36 PM
GU in the Big East is very unlikely, even though it's a fun idea to consider. One big obstacle is that many of the big schools back east really don't want to fly out to Spokane in the winter. The benefit of adding Gonzaga is really outweighed by the travel and cost in their opinion and the fact that Spokane really doesn't add a decent TV market, there isn't a great travel partner to pair with the Bulldogs, etc, etc. They are less excited about us than we are about them.

The trouble it would cause the other sports is also something that is a strong obstacle. I know most people on this site aren't particularly concerned if baseball or cross country is negatively impacted, but I think that impact would weigh heavily on the GU decision makers looking at the implications of a new conference. And I think the academic folks might wonder about the impact on scholastic performance that shooting teams across the continent every other weekend might have--GU is an institution that's first priority is supposed to be academics after all.

The Mountain West Conference is a more realisitc option if conference switching is what we really want.

thespywhozaggedme
04-05-2013, 05:38 AM
Does that mean you want to bet ?

He's turned down several schools including UCLA this year; he ain't going anywhere.

Zagcity
04-05-2013, 06:31 AM
Question: Did Indiana come calling for Stevens during the last coaching hire?

bartruff1
04-05-2013, 06:51 AM
As for Butler. Off the thread subject

No one can predict the future...you maybe able to make a most likley guess at the outcome for a organization, a group, a team, a company ect.... but it is more difficult to predict the future for a individual.... I don't know know what Brad Steven's future holds and neither does anyone else...

A person's life can change in a second...the Pope resigned...Pretraus resigned...Steve Jobs died...Jerry Sienfield retired... Tiger was ranked out of the top 100....I thought OJ was guilty.

All I am saying is that IMHO he is key to the program's success and if for any reason he is no longer the coach...they will suffer..

In addition, I believe that Butler will not be able to compete in the Big East, even if he stays there. They have not been so successful in the last few years and I doubt they will be ranked in the top 30 in the last (19th week) of the AP Poll next year.

You may have a different opinion..fine

webspinnre
04-05-2013, 07:13 AM
I do agree that in general, Stevens isn't going anywhere. That being said, when Coach K retires, you'd have to think that Stevens would at least consider Duke.

willandi
04-05-2013, 07:24 AM
As much as I would like to see the Zags face that level of conference competition (the B East) it is highly unlikely because of the logistics. What the Zags need is a conference commish that understands that requiring the lower tier teams to improve facilities and the product on the court, will ultimatly be good for the conference, not just the Zags.
Since 'Z' doesn't seem amenable to that, a change of conference may be in order. The MWC could be a possibility, but even better would be the Big Sky. They now stretch from California to Colorado and from Arizona to N Dakota. The addition to the Sky may have the same affect it has for the WCC, making them a 2 bid league. I am sure that the Zags could be a non-football member, they bring a lot to the table in the other sports, and generally face the Big Sky's teams anyway, through individual matches and meets.
If nothing else, serious conversation with the Big Sky and/or MWC will show the WCC that they COULD lose their biggest apple, and would likely losee BYU and then sink back into obscurity.

Birddog
04-05-2013, 08:11 AM
As much as I would like to see the Zags face that level of conference competition (the B East) it is highly unlikely because of the logistics. What the Zags need is a conference commish that understands that requiring the lower tier teams to improve facilities and the product on the court, will ultimatly be good for the conference, not just the Zags.


I'm not sure I get this. I've read it here before too. Is it the commish's job to insist that schools improve their programs? I think outside of pep talks and prodding his hands are tied. The school presidents are the ones that have to embrace change and work towards improvement. Until they decide to make a change, it ain't gonna happen. The Gonzaga model is a good one to emulate but it may not work for all or any of the WCC members. The other member institutions have to decide to work toward improvement and that is a decision that has a ton of complexity. Academics, costs, growth, PR, ROI, are just some of the things that each school must consider along with all the other stuff college presidents have to deal with. No easy answers here. The only easy solutions are found on fan message boards.

Angelo Roncalli
04-05-2013, 08:23 AM
I'm not sure I get this. I've read it here before too. Is it the commish's job to insist that schools improve their programs? I think outside of pep talks and prodding his hands are tied. The school presidents are the ones that have to embrace change and work towards improvement. Until they decide to make a change, it ain't gonna happen. The Gonzaga model is a good one to emulate but it may not work for all or any of the WCC members. The other member institutions have to decide to work toward improvement and that is a decision that has a ton of complexity. Academics, costs, growth, PR, ROI, are just some of the things that each school must consider along with all the other stuff college presidents have to deal with. No easy answers here. The only essy solutions are found on fan message boards.

BD has it right. The notion that the commissioner can strong arm conference members into building new facilities, paying higher salaries, etc., is extremely naive. There are serious land use limitations that severely restrict what USF and Pepperdine can do with respect to facilities, for example. There's the whole cost issue to which BD alludes. Then there's the political reality--in effect, the commissioner works for the member school presidents...they tell him what to do, not vice versa.

Angelo Roncalli
04-05-2013, 08:27 AM
Since 'Z' doesn't seem amenable to that, a change of conference may be in order. The MWC could be a possibility, but even better would be the Big Sky. They now stretch from California to Colorado and from Arizona to N Dakota. The addition to the Sky may have the same affect it has for the WCC, making them a 2 bid league. I am sure that the Zags could be a non-football member, they bring a lot to the table in the other sports, and generally face the Big Sky's teams anyway, through individual matches and meets

The Big Sky would probably love to have GU, but it would be unrequited love.

The Big Sky offers nothing to Gonzaga. Nothing. There's no TV market, it would kill recruiting and those sellouts in the MAC? They'd be a thing of the past. I'm sorry Willi, this may be the worst idea ever proposed.

spike_jr
04-05-2013, 08:54 AM
Angelo - I don't know if sell outs at the MAC would be a thing of the past, but there would have to be a considerable drop in the price of season tickets. I would imagine it would be even more difficult to get good BCS types to come to the MAC if we were affiliated with the big sky. Could be the start of a downward spiral for GU hoops

TexasZagFan
04-05-2013, 09:41 AM
BD & The Pontiff both nailed it. Here's my $.02:

With the exception of St. Mary's, what other schools have improved their BB programs? Oh, there may be a few exceptions, but not on a consistent basis. It appears to me that the powers that be at the other WCC schools are like the members of Aerosmith praising the talent of Steven Tyler, i.e. "thanks for letting us tag along for the ride", as they take their piece of the NCAA Tournament pie.

If I'm a fan at the other schools, I liken those attitudes as "settling for the scraps from Longshanks' table".

However, there's a part of me that respects them for not trying to be another Gonzaga. The days of virtually unlimited student loans and other support to colleges and universities are coming to an end.

We caught lightning 15 years ago, with a catchy name and several loquacious and telegenic young men that captured a nation's fancy. Hey, we all know what a beautiful campus we have in Spokane. Who wouldn't want to pursue their academic pursuits in such an idyllic setting. In just two days, it captured my wife's heart. Alas, my daughter had heard too many of my stories about the effort it took for me to graduate in 4 years. :lmao:

Still, any parent that walks the grounds of GU are comfortable with the vision of their child studying here. It's more conducive to academics than say, Pepperdine. Homework, or the beach? Tough question...

willandi
04-05-2013, 10:22 AM
Probably right about what the commish can do, but he CAN push for it, not make TV contracts for the little sisters of LA, CAN push for double byes into the tourney etc. He could reward the top program(s) for excellence and what they bring to the table, and limit what the bottom dwellers get.
If we moved to the Sky, would we not be able to take much of the ESPN programming, that is seperate from the WCC, with us? It would elevate the stature of the Sky, and with Weber and the Griz already being competitve teams would enhance their stature. NAU has made an effort, Eastern is trying.
Just options. Maybe Mountain West would be better. If there is nothing that Gonzaga can do to improve their lot, Then we should all just be quiett and accept the morass we seem to be in!
If you disagree, what are your solutions?...and yes, I have read most of the threads that have been posted.

DixieZag
04-05-2013, 01:02 PM
Probably right about what the commish can do, but he CAN push for it, not make TV contracts for the little sisters of LA, CAN push for double byes into the tourney etc. He could reward the top program(s) for excellence and what they bring to the table, and limit what the bottom dwellers get.
If we moved to the Sky, would we not be able to take much of the ESPN programming, that is seperate from the WCC, with us? It would elevate the stature of the Sky, and with Weber and the Griz already being competitve teams would enhance their stature. NAU has made an effort, Eastern is trying.
Just options. Maybe Mountain West would be better. If there is nothing that Gonzaga can do to improve their lot, Then we should all just be quiett and accept the morass we seem to be in!
If you disagree, what are your solutions?...and yes, I have read most of the threads that have been posted.

The Big Sky would be a comptetive net drop - - are you kidding? Montana and Weber are nowhere near the level of SMC or BYU (or even SCU for that matter) and it would also be an academic drop off the deep end and create less tv interest.

The MWC seems almost like more of a forced marriage than the Big East just b/c of the different type of schools in it.

It almost gets down to which is the bigger stone to roll up the mountain, pushing the WCC to get better or pushing the Zags to fit the Big East.

I still think the only way this gets done is that the Big East becomes a 2 division league with an East / West division and I actually think that the more obvious travel partner for Gonzaga in the west is Santa Clara, in every way except SMC being a much better team recently.

jazzdelmar
04-05-2013, 01:46 PM
"Still, any parent that walks the grounds of GU are comfortable with the vision of their child studying here. It's more conducive to academics than say, Pepperdine. Homework, or the beach? Tough question...[/QUOTE]

pep is arguably the best academic school in the wcc.....

this is from a BYU board and presumably uses US News rankings.

National Universities Rankings:

53. Pepperdine
75. BYU
94. University of San Diego
117. University of San Francisco

All four schools are ahead of the University of Arizona (120), University of Utah (129), Oregon State University (139) and Arizona State (143).

Pepperdine, BYU and USD also sit in front of Washington State (111) and University of Oregon (111).


Regional Universities (West) Rankings:

2. Santa Clara
3. Loyola Marymount
4. Gonzaga University
9. University of Portland
12. St. Mary's College

229SintoZag
04-05-2013, 02:28 PM
"Still, any parent that walks the grounds of GU are comfortable with the vision of their child studying here. It's more conducive to academics than say, Pepperdine. Homework, or the beach? Tough question...

pep is arguably the best academic school in the wcc.....

this is from a BYU board and presumably uses US News rankings.

National Universities Rankings:

53. Pepperdine
75. BYU
94. University of San Diego
117. University of San Francisco

All four schools are ahead of the University of Arizona (120), University of Utah (129), Oregon State University (139) and Arizona State (143).

Pepperdine, BYU and USD also sit in front of Washington State (111) and University of Oregon (111).


Regional Universities (West) Rankings:

2. Santa Clara
3. Loyola Marymount
4. Gonzaga University
9. University of Portland
12. St. Mary's College

What distinguishes a 'national' from a 'regional' university here?

I have a tough time believing that USD is more 'national' than GU or Santa Clara.

I can see USF being a top "international" university because of their demographics, but I fail to see how they are more national than the rest of the WCC.

ehk 21
04-05-2013, 02:41 PM
A better way to look at the two categories is doctoral versus masters level.
USD, Pepperdine, and the other "national" universities have significant doctoral programs that have an emphasis on research. The "regional" universities might offer a couple of doctoral programs, but really don't emphasize graudate programs beyond the master's level. Their graduate programs tend to be more professionally oriented than research oriented. US News uses the terms "national" and "regional"--when the clearer distinction is doctoral/research versus master's/professional.

willandi
04-05-2013, 02:44 PM
The Big Sky would be a comptetive net drop - - are you kidding? Montana and Weber are nowhere near the level of SMC or BYU (or even SCU for that matter) and it would also be an academic drop off the deep end and create less tv interest.

The MWC seems almost like more of a forced marriage than the Big East just b/c of the different type of schools in it.

It almost gets down to which is the bigger stone to roll up the mountain, pushing the WCC to get better or pushing the Zags to fit the Big East.

I still think the only way this gets done is that the Big East becomes a 2 division league with an East / West division and I actually think that the more obvious travel partner for Gonzaga in the west is Santa Clara, in every way except SMC being a much better team recently.

Wasn't kidding, was looking for solutions. Since everybody agrees that there is no way to force the WCC to get better, then we might as well get the two divisions. Let's start our own, with the EX wcc schools that we invite, and call it Big East West. Maybe as a fait accompli it would get done!

maynard g krebs
04-05-2013, 02:48 PM
Probably right about what the commish can do, but he CAN push for it, not make TV contracts for the little sisters of LA, CAN push for double byes into the tourney etc. He could reward the top program(s) for excellence and what they bring to the table, and limit what the bottom dwellers get.
If we moved to the Sky, would we not be able to take much of the ESPN programming, that is seperate from the WCC, with us? It would elevate the stature of the Sky, and with Weber and the Griz already being competitve teams would enhance their stature. NAU has made an effort, Eastern is trying.
Just options. Maybe Mountain West would be better. If there is nothing that Gonzaga can do to improve their lot, Then we should all just be quiett and accept the morass we seem to be in!
If you disagree, what are your solutions?...and yes, I have read most of the threads that have been posted.

Will, the Big Sky is what is known as a "low major" conference, ranking 25ish of the 31 conferences, compared to WCC's 10ish. Would end GU basketball as we know it. Just a step above joining the GNAC with D2 powers SPU and Western Wa.

jazzdelmar
04-05-2013, 03:01 PM
What distinguishes a 'national' from a 'regional' university here?

I have a tough time believing that USD is more 'national' than GU or Santa Clara.

I can see USF being a top "international" university because of their demographics, but I fail to see how they are more national than the rest of the WCC.



Here....

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2011/09/05/methodology-best-colleges-ranking-category-definitions

ehk 21
04-05-2013, 03:23 PM
I can't speak for the other WCC schools, but I have a little bit of insight into University of Portland as I am an alum. (I follow and root for the Zags because I was raised in Spokane, have relatives who are GU grads, etc.). I am a little tired of reading about the WCC schools not spending, upgrading, etc. Portland has tried to upgrade their program. They built the Chiles Center before Gonzaga's success and have spent money in the last few years upgrading that building--adding new, improved locker rooms, etc. Portland has changed coaches, upped the salaries of assistants. They've spent more money on promotion, upgraded their schedule (for example the three game series with Kentucky, including a home game in the Rose Garden). They've spent more money on recruiting...Coach Reveno travels the world trying to get international players to Portland. Unfortunately, this hasn't translated into wins and results, but it isn't for a lack of trying.

Portland also devotes resources to its other athletic teams. Cross country has finished in the national top ten on several occasions. Women's soccer has won two national titles and has led the nation in attendance several times. Men's soccer has made it to the Final Four a couple of times.
These programs deserve resources too. We've cut sports (golf) to try to maxamize resources for programs like basketball and soccer. And we have space issues too--that's why we're spending millions cleaning up an EPA Superfund site adjacent to the current campus with much of the new site being devoted to future athletic facilities.

The University of Portland also has some areas it has needed to improve in terms of academics and academic facilities. The University has chosen to spend money on more residence halls so that it could grow enrollment, has chosen to spend money on a new dining hall, has chosen to put money into the upgraded library it really needed. The school is trying to find money to start construction on a student recreation facility, which is really needed as the current facility is a half century out of date. The University has decided that, in challenging economic times, it has to prioritize where it places it resources and that it can't put unlimited money into men's basketball.

We are very sorry that we drag down Gonzaga's RPI. We would love to replicate your success. We are putting more money into men's basketball than we ever have. And we are also trying to make every program on our campus the best it can be. Yes, the WCC, has limitations, and isn't perfect for Gonzaga's men's basketball program, but you've done pretty well for yourselves hanging out with us pathetic low lifes.

rijman
04-05-2013, 03:48 PM
I can't speak for the other WCC schools, but I have a little bit of insight into University of Portland as I am an alum. (I follow and root for the Zags because I was raised in Spokane, have relatives who are GU grads, etc.). I am a little tired of reading about the WCC schools not spending, upgrading, etc. Portland has tried to upgrade their program. They built the Chiles Center before Gonzaga's success and have spent money in the last few years upgrading that building--adding new, improved locker rooms, etc. Portland has changed coaches, upped the salaries of assistants. They've spent more money on promotion, upgraded their schedule (for example the three game series with Kentucky, including a home game in the Rose Garden). They've spent more money on recruiting...Coach Reveno travels the world trying to get international players to Portland. Unfortunately, this hasn't translated into wins and results, but it isn't for a lack of trying.

Portland also devotes resources to its other athletic teams. Cross country has finished in the national top ten on several occasions. Women's soccer has won two national titles and has led the nation in attendance several times. Men's soccer has made it to the Final Four a couple of times.
These programs deserve resources too. We've cut sports (golf) to try to maxamize resources for programs like basketball and soccer. And we have space issues too--that's why we're spending millions cleaning up an EPA Superfund site adjacent to the current campus with much of the new site being devoted to future athletic facilities.

The University of Portland also has some areas it has needed to improve in terms of academics and academic facilities. The University has chosen to spend money on more residence halls so that it could grow enrollment, has chosen to spend money on a new dining hall, has chosen to put money into the upgraded library it really needed. The school is trying to find money to start construction on a student recreation facility, which is really needed as the current facility is a half century out of date. The University has decided that, in challenging economic times, it has to prioritize where it places it resources and that it can't put unlimited money into men's basketball.

We are very sorry that we drag down Gonzaga's RPI. We would love to replicate your success. We are putting more money into men's basketball than we ever have. And we are also trying to make every program on our campus the best it can be. Yes, the WCC, has limitations, and isn't perfect for Gonzaga's men's basketball program, but you've done pretty well for yourselves hanging out with us pathetic low lifes.
Thanks for the feedback. You cut golf? You can't cut golf!

Every school in the WCC is trying to compete with Gonzaga, but trying and doing are 2 different things. GU could compete in a better conference, have more revenue and improve their national exposure. Every school has to consider their options when opportunities arise and GU is no different. The WCC has worked for us to this point, we may find another conference that better suits our needs in the future.

willandi
04-05-2013, 05:42 PM
Will, the Big Sky is what is known as a "low major" conference, ranking 25ish of the 31 conferences, compared to WCC's 10ish. Would end GU basketball as we know it. Just a step above joining the GNAC with D2 powers SPU and Western Wa.

And what would the WCC be without GU? Probably a low major!

Not saying that the Big Sky is the answer, just that the Zags need to attempt to convince the WCC that they need to improve. I know that Portland and many others are really trying. If there is no where to go but the B East, and they won't take us, then there is no where to go and further conversation is useless. Thanks anyway, was just trying to stimulate the thing that gets stirred.

Rangerzag
04-05-2013, 06:00 PM
Seems to me it would be nice if some of the WCC teams that manage to rise to the occasion for Zag games would somehow also pull a couple of extra wins out of the fire in the OOC time frame.

Does the inspiration to win always require an expenditure of money??

UberZagFan
04-05-2013, 06:13 PM
The difference between posters in the MBB and posters in the FOO:

In the FOO, when we post pad we don't try to hide it like posting the next number in a countdown; In the MBB, when we post pad we just start another "GU needs to leave the WCC" thread.


p.s. Big Sky? Wow.

gamagin
04-06-2013, 12:27 PM
in order to find out what, if anything, is out there -- chat wise -- in the thinner air. I asked around about the gist of Flynn's piece.

I would summarize the article and the reactions I got to it this way. Nothing is in cement. But Flynn's report is spot on. The discussions are ongoing at the top.

• All agree "something" is going to change and the belief is we will be leaving the WCC. A move to the BE, or variations of it, is the option under study. I could not get any Plan B from anyone.

• Because there is no known/discussed plan B, this makes me (and no one else) suggest there is no plan B. The plan is to move. The question is where and when.

MY plan B (pure speculation) would be to stay put while "something else" (perhaps a WCC revamp, some kind of east-west BE affiliation, some kind of merger --- whatever can be imagined) is worked out. All SPECULATION based on my belief you have to have a fallback position, no matter what you would LIKE to do. But that's just me. If there really is no Plan B, it could mean Plan A is further along than any of us know about. I doubt that, but I do not know.

• The consensus, too, was the BE (or any) move (by us) would involve both the men and the womens basketball teams. That's as far as anyone went. Questions of travel, scheduling and all the details are all under discussion and review. One e.g. given was the men and women's team travel together and perhaps each plays a two-game schedule against the same two schools, then returns. THAT would mean five round trips (versus 10 each) per season, for e.g..

Discussion about the rest of the sports was not mentioned at any great length, either in Flynn's piece or by his sources and mine. I did learn that the rest of the list of sports are known on the inside as "Olympic Sports." I take this to mean all the other women and mens' non revenue producing sports at GU. The ones the two GU basketball programs now support.

I asked if, like N.D (in football), we went independent in basketball, could we keep the rest of our Olympic Sports in the WCC ? It would be impossible for all of these teams to be flying cross country all the time, I theorized. Clearly. So what happens ? my source said this: "As Flynn's piece indicates, I was told that when Few wanted to go independent, the WCC said, in essence, if you leave for basketball, we aren't going to want your other sports. ND, I think, is going to the ACC in FB.
Bottom line: Olympic sports are up in the air as far as anyone knows, even though all are aware of the challenge.


• Another guess by me, and an unknown factor that will play a big (maybe the biggest) role, imo, will involve the money involved. Costs and benefits could make or break these exercises. Otherwise, what's the point and if the tradeoff isn't substantial ? No business would look at this idea without working out the details. and for college sports that means the networks and the sports networks, cable and everyone else involved in delivery. ANd there will be winners and losers. Look at Washington State's fb program and the Pac 12 deal. WSU fb has been buried in money and is now trying desperately to be someone. So far, it's just a rich, necessary part of a bigger, more lucrative, package. Imagine if WSU were trying to get into the Pac 12 after that package had been sealed. Would.Not.Happen. But look at what they are now a partner in and what might we be part of going forward ? Or what might we forfeit if we stay pat ? Those are the questions and the challenges and the deals we are apparently looking at right now. Networks proposing and bidding to present the best of the best; tournaments tied in to said packages; and the league of leagues that wind up in and out of those deals, etc. Any ambitious package will necessarily carry the financial prospects and limitations and obligations with it. The best leagues and organizations will necessarily wind up with the best deals. Because they can.

So where do we fit in ? That is the question. The so called Catholic league proposal looks to me like it is trying to pool its collective programs, that collective drawing and staying power, in order to look more like the bigger fish now swimming and competing in the proposed larger pond that is T.V. land. The alternative to going through all these motions is to be left on the sidelines, especially financially, but also to stand by and watch yourselves getting cut out of the very direction a large number of schools and basketball programs are heading, with or without us.

To be continued . . .

gu03alum
04-06-2013, 12:46 PM
Thanks Gamagin! I appreciate your efforts to dig this stuff up.

DixieZag
04-06-2013, 01:58 PM
Gamagin raises one interesting point that I hadn't thought much about, the point about being there in the beginning of a conference to get in on the original deal.

I assumed (still do) that there is no way that a change can be made impacting next year with GU and the WCC. . . though next year is the first year of the Big East Catholic armada.

Am I right about that? We are in the WCC next year, no matter what, right? I would think it is too late to move in and get in on the ground floor.

One thing that GU DOES bring to the new Big East (people have asked, why would they want us?), if asked, is the Pacific time zone, which the schools may hate, but the TV networks would love. IF GU and a partner moved in, at least every other week, there would be a "late game" available to be televised under the original deal without signing a separate deal with another conference. . . things like that actually matter, the WCC would not have had the deal they had with ESPN if those games were competing with Eastern/Central time zone games.

ZagLawGrad
04-06-2013, 05:10 PM
Portland looks to have gone backwards. Amongst others.

Zag 77
04-06-2013, 05:29 PM
In other words, it is over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over.

In other words it is over.

GUZag08
04-06-2013, 05:48 PM
In other words, it is over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over.

In other words it is over.

Does this come from sources you claim to have? (like the other 2 posters)

Or is it just a dramatic way of expressing your opinion

spike_jr
04-06-2013, 07:44 PM
I have a question. Everybody thinks that the women's BB team would need to move to the BE too. My question is why? I can not imagine that they are revenue positive now and then you factor in the increased travel costs. There is no way that pencils out. Am I wrong somewhere?

ehk 21
04-06-2013, 08:24 PM
I don't think you could move only men's basketball to the Big East. The WCC would not accept any Gonzaga teams if the men's basketball team left. So all the remaining sports would be without a good conference alternative, if only the men's basketball team left. I am not an expert in this area, but I think you would also have some serious Title IX issues if you updgraded only the men's team to the Big East and left all the women's teams in the lurch. And moving all men's and women's teams to the Big East would present some very difficult cost problems. While a move to the Big East would make many commenting on this thread happy, it could potentially harm the non-Basketball sports, alienate a percentage of the campus community supporting other sports, and perturb some in the academic portion of the campus community who might see a downside to increasing the amount of time athletes are away from classrooms.

Zagdawg
04-06-2013, 08:45 PM
Gonzaga is a basketball school-- the rest of the sports well they are part of the university also--but they don't carry the weight.

Does the school get the large bump in enrollment, new basketball facility, baseball field, new library, updated engineering building, new student union if the basketball program doesn't bring in the additional students related to the "Flutie Effect" we have seen over the last 14 years due to the basketball program?

I am sure the leadership team for the university will have perform an indepth review prior to making whatever decision they make.

If a new conference makes sense -- they will pull the trigger-- if it does not-- then they won't.

ZagaZags
04-07-2013, 02:09 AM
In other words, it is over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over.

In other words it is over.

It is over?

bartruff1
04-07-2013, 03:58 AM
It is over?

Was it over when the Germans's bombed Pearl Harbor !!! It isn't over till we say it is over...

DADoZAG
04-07-2013, 09:41 AM
The best teams don’t just create opportunity, they take advantage of opportunity.

At this time, more than any other that I know of, it’s great to have perhaps the best program administration team in the history of college sport looking out for the interest of the basketball program at Gonzaga.

Giddy…

Go ZAGS!

rijman
04-07-2013, 10:11 AM
Was it over when the Germans's bombed Pearl Harbor !!! It isn't over till we say it is over...
Well played sir.

Thanks gamagin for your thorough post. As Gordon Gecko said in Wall Street "If you're not inside, then you're outside, ok?" The Zags want to be on the inside of the league re alignment trend.

Zagger
04-07-2013, 12:23 PM
Was it over when the Germans's bombed Pearl Harbor !!! It isn't over till we say it is over...
Say what? History lesson in order!

MJ777
04-07-2013, 12:26 PM
Say what? History lesson in order!

Watch Animal House or at least Bluto's speech on YouTube. That is your history lesson.

gamagin
04-08-2013, 02:11 PM
please dig into the archives and find out what the WCC contract is with member teams. Under what conditions a member must stay or can leave.

What the process is. What the details are whether GU moves or stays. Try and determine vis a vis the rules of the league, what is possible. Or impossible.

If you have time. If you are willing. I think the discussion needs to move beyond sources and some of this involves the simple rules by which everyone is currently existing.

You are the best at digging up great stuff. that's why I'm asking you.

thanks,

KStyles
04-08-2013, 02:26 PM
4.3. Withdrawal of Members.

4.3.1. Written Notice.
An institution desiring to withdraw from the Conference shall provide
the Commissioner and each president written notice of its intention to
withdraw at least 24 months prior to the commencement of the fiscal year
in which withdrawal shall be effective. [R 6/10]

4.3.2. Contractual Obligations.
Prior to withdrawal from the Conference, the institution shall demonstrate
that all its contracted Conference obligations, financial and otherwise,
have been fulfilled.

4.3.3. One-Time Payment.
An institution that withdraws without proper written notice and/or has not
fulfilled its Conference obligations shall make a one-time payment to the
Conference of one-eighth of the annual Conference operating budget in
place at the time of departure. [R 6/10]

4.3.3.1. Extenuating Circumstances.
The Presidents’ Council by a three-fourths vote of those
institutions eligible to vote, may reduce, restructure, or waive
the payment required if extenuating circumstances warrant
consideration. [6/10]

4.3.4. Restriction of Voting Privileges.
An institution that has announced its intention to withdraw from the
Conference shall not vote on issues affecting future Conference operation
or policy.

4.3.5. Financial Privileges.
An institution that has declared its intent to withdraw from the Conference
is not eligible to receive a regular (i.e., television and/or marketing,
championships revenue, surplus, etc.) or special (i.e., new initiative
funding, etc.) distribution made from the Conference to its membership,
effective immediately upon written notice of intent to withdraw. [6/10]

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/west/genrel/auto_pdf/2010-11WCCHandbook.pdf

Looks like 2 years notice is required, or the withdrawing school will have to pay 1/8th (probably 1/9th currently, soon to be 1/10th, as that handbook is from 2010-2011) of the current WCC operating budget.

willandi
04-08-2013, 03:04 PM
So. Does this mean that if Gonzaga decides to leave the WCC, that they don't have to share the monies garnered by Gonzaga as a result of participation in the NCAA tournament, and that games televised on ESPN and Root TV, outside the contracts with the WCC, also shall result in money that Gonzaga doesn't have to share?

Does the 1/8 portion of the operating budget now drop to 1/10?

maynard g krebs
04-08-2013, 04:42 PM
Watch Animal House or at least Bluto's speech on YouTube. That is your history lesson.

Forget it. He's rolling.

KStyles
04-08-2013, 04:48 PM
So. Does this mean that if Gonzaga decides to leave the WCC, that they don't have to share the monies garnered by Gonzaga as a result of participation in the NCAA tournament, and that games televised on ESPN and Root TV, outside the contracts with the WCC, also shall result in money that Gonzaga doesn't have to share?

Does the 1/8 portion of the operating budget now drop to 1/10?


Elsewhere in the handbook, it states NCAA tourney units are property of the conference. Any school earning a unit gets 50k for each unit. A school would probably keep any 50k payments for units they've already been paid (not any for which they haven't as regular/special distributions are suspended when a school announces intention to withdraw), and that'd be that.


5.7. NCAA Basketball Championship Proceeds.
All proceeds from the NCAA Division I Basketball Championship revenue shall be
retained by the Conference office.

5.7.1. Men’s Basketball Participants.
Any team that advances to the NCAA Men’s Basketball Championship
shall be awarded $50,000 per unit generated in the championship.

As for TV revenue, I believe any school's non-conference TV deals are independent of the conference, and that school would retain that money. I'd think the WCC would retain money from the conference TV deals (the "regular distributions" mentioned as being suspended once a school announces its intention to withdraw).


3.3.2. Basketball.
In the sport of basketball, the Conference releases the video broadcast
rights, other than the Broadband rights, to non-conference contests to the
member institutions not later than August 1 of each calendar year, and the
Conference releases the video broadcast rights, other than the Broadband
rights, to all Conference contests that are not included in the Conference’s
video broadcast packages to the member institutions as soon as the
Conference video packages are completed each year. [6/06, R 6/10]

As for the buyout, I'd assume so, that handbook is from before BYU joined.

gamagin
04-08-2013, 06:30 PM
you see anything in the rulebook that says how many teams a member has to field and if there is any language that might prevent GU from going indy in basketball and staying with the WCC with the rest of its programs ?

Wondered about that. It seemed like GU was warned (per Flynn's article), but what do the rules actually say ?

My guess is nothing cuz it hasn't been an issue before. Or at least I don't think so.

So wondering what would prevent, under the rules, GU going indy in bkb, maintaining (say, for e.g.) seven competitive sports in the WCC and just going ahead ?

Conversely, what if a school wanted to have MORE than the required number of sports that the WCC requires. Any language covering that ?

thanks,

Birddog
04-08-2013, 06:35 PM
USD for one plays football in addition to the WCC sports. Jim Harbaugh got his coaching start there.

gamagin
04-09-2013, 09:09 AM
It looks to me like there is plenty of wiggle room should the move take place whenever it does, versus per the agreement.

Penalties, waivers, etc., fines even, do not seem be or add up to anything that couldn't be fixed relatively easy. GU, as I understand it, is the largest contributor and money maker for the league. By far.

BYU, being pretty new, is a factor I'm not sure of including. Just don't know.

At any rate, it would be the level of protest and the willingness to make a fight of it that might slow any process by any WCC member to depart. Absent that, it doesn't seem like it take much to build in the cost of leaving as part of any t.v. package going forward.

What is your take on this, having read it over ? Thanks.

KStyles
04-09-2013, 09:33 AM
It looks to me like there is plenty of wiggle room should the move take place whenever it does, versus per the agreement.

Penalties, waivers, etc., fines even, do not seem be or add up to anything that couldn't be fixed relatively easy. GU, as I understand it, is the largest contributor and money maker for the league. By far.

BYU, being pretty new, is a factor I'm not sure of including. Just don't know.

At any rate, it would be the level of protest and the willingness to make a fight of it that might slow any process by any WCC member to depart. Absent that, it doesn't seem like it take much to build in the cost of leaving as part of any t.v. package going forward.

What is your take on this, having read it over ? Thanks.

I'd agree, it doesn't look like the WCC has much recourse if a school decides to leave. If a school like Gonzaga decided to leave, there doesn't appear to be too many roadblocks, etc., to prevent that. It appears that the only thing the conference requests is a 2 year notice. Absent that notice, there's the 1/8th (or so) of operating budget buyout, which I'm sure wouldn't be too big of a dealbreaker. Many other schools moving conferences have had (at least) parts of their buyouts paid by their new leagues.

As for a school going independent in a sport or two and trying to keep the rest of their sports in the WCC, there does appear to be some language that could address that.


4.5. Expulsion of Members.
The Presidents’ Council, by a three-fourths vote of those institutions eligible to vote, may expel a member institution for any conduct deemed to be incompatible with membership. The Presidents’ Council shall determine the date of expulsion. The president of the institution in question may not participate in the vote.

I'm not sure what constitutes "conduct incompatible with membership," but it appears that is at the discretion of 7/9 of the university presidents (incl. Pacific, excluding GU), and withdrawing an athletic team (in GU MBB's case, one of the top money-making/media exposure teams in all sports for the entire conference) from a conference-sponsored D-I sport to play elsewhere might fall under that. USD plays I-AA football in the Pioneer Football League, but the WCC doesn't sponsor football. Same with Pepperdine (D-I Men's Water Polo - Mountain Pacfic Sports Federation), SMC (D-I Men's Rugby - California Conference), among many others.

That's my interpretation at least, I have no insider knowledge. Pretty much all of my info comes from reading the WCC handbook. Of course, the handbook has probably been updated a little bit since the version of the WCC Handbook from June 2010 (http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/west/genrel/auto_pdf/2010-11WCCHandbook.pdf) that I'm reading, so the rules may have changed a bit. I couldn't find a newer version.

vandalzag
04-09-2013, 09:46 AM
The money coming into the conference and the current exposure the conference gets begins and ends with GU. If the Zags leave, BYU will be right behind them (they are already one foot out the door waiting for the right football conference). Hard to imagine ESPN showcasing a San Francisco LMU game at 8PM on ESPN or ESPN2. That WCC will attempt to extort the Zags into staying by threatening the boot all other programs. I would venture a guess that even if the current bylaws allowed for the other programs to stay, the rules would be amended by a 9-1 vote at the next conference meeting.

Like it or not, the future of basketball is aligning with a BCS level conference. The money, exposure, scheduling, etc...(all things needed to recruit and compete) will be dictated by conferences and the national TV contracts (or if they own their own channel). The short sighted dealings that the WCC has (adding Pacific, regional cable contracts) make the league and also ran. Inferior programs and facilities make up the majority of the WCC, all are happy to take the money GU generates and do nothing to better themselves in return. GU would be better off competing as an independent in the Non-hoops sports and aligning the bball teams with the new big east. A conference where basketball is king is the only logical decision. Joining something like the MWC would not work since, they can't add to the football revenue.

Moving conferences will become a matter of survival. The power conferences will command that prime and sub-prime TV space ($$), leaving the scraps for the rest of the conferences. With St. Mary's poised to take a step back and BYU the conference is in threat of becoming an afterthought.

gamagin
04-09-2013, 11:49 AM
The money coming into the conference and the current exposure the conference gets begins and ends with GU. If the Zags leave, BYU will be right behind them (they are already one foot out the door waiting for the right football conference). Hard to imagine ESPN showcasing a San Francisco LMU game at 8PM on ESPN or ESPN2. That WCC will attempt to extort the Zags into staying by threatening the boot all other programs. I would venture a guess that even if the current bylaws allowed for the other programs to stay, the rules would be amended by a 9-1 vote at the next conference meeting.

Like it or not, the future of basketball is aligning with a BCS level conference. The money, exposure, scheduling, etc...(all things needed to recruit and compete) will be dictated by conferences and the national TV contracts (or if they own their own channel). The short sighted dealings that the WCC has (adding Pacific, regional cable contracts) make the league and also ran. Inferior programs and facilities make up the majority of the WCC, all are happy to take the money GU generates and do nothing to better themselves in return. GU would be better off competing as an independent in the Non-hoops sports and aligning the bball teams with the new big east. A conference where basketball is king is the only logical decision. Joining something like the MWC would not work since, they can't add to the football revenue.

Moving conferences will become a matter of survival. The power conferences will command that prime and sub-prime TV space ($$), leaving the scraps for the rest of the conferences. With St. Mary's poised to take a step back and BYU the conference is in threat of becoming an afterthought.

you are right. We either move with the times or the times move without us. I think the great news is we qualify. The worrywart in me thinks about what if we don't get into (or invited into the) best league possible for us ?

Thus my noodling around (a made up) Plan B. Which apparently doesn't exist at this time. In my world and my business, there is always a plan B. I prefer a Plan A and a Plan A-1, instead. I.e. choosing between two equally good plans. that would be my dream state.

Have top 2-3 possibilities vying for me to invest with them and have the luxury of a choice.

ehk 21
04-09-2013, 01:55 PM
If GU does end up switching leagues, according to a couple of people I know in other WCC athletic departments, it would be highly unlikely that the WCC would allow Gonzaga's remaining non-men's basketball programs to stay in the WCC. If we switch leagues, it's pretty likely we have to find new homes for all our teams.

Saxon_zag
04-09-2013, 01:58 PM
....I have never heard him say that...the Google can't find it..you must be talking about AJ, he keeps track of all that stuff..

Mark few Did indeed say that on his radio show with hudson on 1510. I want to say it was the show after they got back from the wcc tourney but i'm not positive.

gamagin
04-09-2013, 05:02 PM
What he said on the Mark Few Show (and I'm paraphrazing by memory, so take it for what you will) was that Gonzaga needed to be prepared to do what was best for the Gonzaga and if that meant changing conferences it meant changing conferences.

have heard Few say this at least once, and I believe twice.

Unfortunately, so far, (to Bart's point) those radio shows and the weekly Few t.v. show (KHQ w/Heister) do not provide archived shows or transcripts, either, that I know of.

I have looked for both. I can't find them.

howdydoody
04-09-2013, 05:55 PM
Can't have it both ways.
Stay in the WCC and get used to early Tournament Exists. Doesn't the last four early exists provide justification? How many are necessary..
OR
Play better competition and get ready.

ZagLawGrad
04-09-2013, 06:02 PM
If GU does end up switching leagues, according to a couple of people I know in other WCC athletic departments, it would be highly unlikely that the WCC would allow Gonzaga's remaining non-men's basketball programs to stay in the WCC. If we switch leagues, it's pretty likely we have to find new homes for all our teams.

If Zags' men's program were to bolt, then such a retribution and retaliation attitude by the WCC would pretty much assure the league of a spiral into complete irrelevancy.

Pretty foolish way to do business.

SLOZag
04-16-2013, 11:21 AM
I'm not convinced this guy has answered all the questions raised by Board members:

http://www.ridenbaugh.com/index.php/2013/04/10/so-long-west-coast-conference/

gamagin
04-16-2013, 11:34 AM
I'm not convinced this guy has answered all the questions raised by Board members:

http://www.ridenbaugh.com/index.php/2013/04/10/so-long-west-coast-conference/

chris is originally from Idaho, used to serve under Cecil Andrus as governor and as interior secretary. Runs or did run a successful p.r. business, J. Rockey, in Seattle.

No doubt is a scriber to flynn's blog. Essentially this piece rehashes the essence of Flynn's piece (they know each other well if they are not close friends), and ran with it. Without the attribution but with the areas he does know, like the Harry Magnuson connection to GU (big).

Mods I suggest you merge this with the original series to keep it all under one tent. up to you.

Zag 77
04-16-2013, 12:23 PM
It says nothing new and gives no solutions for the issues raised here about all the non-basketball sports, time zones, academic issues with increased travel, etc. It also seems dated as he is writing about the imminent joinder of Xavier, Butler and Creighton, which actually happened last month.

Heck, if there is more than St. Louis interested as far as Midwest Catholic schools, (Loyola Chi?, ) why not invite them to join the WCC and split into 2 divisions?

In any event, this thread shows that the long off-season is "beating a dead horse" season.

:horse: