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Marcus
03-29-2013, 07:17 PM
There has been a huge amount of comments in this years tournament from announcers and the media and the half time crews about the advantages of having elite athletes. Would any of our team members be classified as this? We have elite players but do we have any elite athletes?

Going forward, how important is it to have more elite "athletes" on our team? Do the additions of Coleman and Nunez improve our overall athleticism?

In no way am I saying this is a reason why we lost or calling for a change in personnel or how the coaches recruit. Just wondering how important people feel this is for Gonzagas future?

former1dog
03-29-2013, 07:37 PM
None of the active players really qualify as "elite" athletes. I don't know about the red shirts, like Coleman.

We've had some in the past. Calvary, Anthony Reason, Errol knight before his knees went bad, Pargo, Downs. Probably missing a few.

McZag
03-29-2013, 07:47 PM
I have been waiting for this thread. It usually doesn't pop up until Final Four weekend but not surprised to see it here. It takes at least this long for us Blue and Red Eyed Zag heads to see and understand what national championship teams look like. I first started noticing this thread when Rose and Memphis made the championship game and Cal went off to UK.

There are exceptions, like Butler, but championship teams are those that stock athletes, lots of them, and teach them disciplined team basketball. Last year's Kentucky team had just enough discipline and basketball knowledge to not beat themselves and win it all.

But it starts with the athletes and if you have read my posts this past week you will begin to understand why I am not as down as some about GU's early exit. With one more athlete, we win last Saturday. With two more we win a game next weekend.

Over simplified? Guilty. But without the speed, you are relying on 3's falling and refs making calls and champions rely on neither.

bartruff1
03-29-2013, 07:49 PM
Last year after Gonzaga embarrased West Virginia, in the post game interviews, Huggins was asked why ???

He said, because Gonzaga recruits kids that know how to play basketball, and all to often, other teams recruit kids that are quick and big and strong and can run and jump and don't know how to play and won't learn...

Now, if we can get some that can run and jump and know how to play basketball !!! But, you know where they go...

former1dog
03-29-2013, 07:50 PM
Santangelo was an elite athlete. Should have mentioned him. Frahm was borderline.

zagco
03-29-2013, 08:01 PM
Zagco takes an athlete over a skill guy everytime, unless it's a game of HORSE or a video shoot for a basketball drills instructional. Generally speaking, he would only take a skill guy if the skill guy had truly elite skills, like Larry Bird. Otherwise, it's athlete all the way.

Marcus
03-29-2013, 08:02 PM
I remember Huggins saying that and I do think that their is some truth in that statement. I think it's easy to get caught up in physical ability and lose sight of the great basketball IQ and skill guys. Having said that, I also agree with McZag that in games where your skill guys have an off night it can be tougher to overcome those games and still win.

Fwiw I feel that Guy is an elite athlete but he could not put it all together for long enough stretches to be effective. Maybe if he had all four years at Gonzaga he could have visited the Olynyk clinic and been a force. Who knows.

MJ777
03-29-2013, 08:03 PM
Wouldn't GLE qualify? Few apparently couldn't get him to be disciplined enough to stay on the court.

former1dog
03-29-2013, 08:06 PM
Wouldn't GLE qualify? Few apparently couldn't get him to be disciplined enough to stay on the court.

I'd put him in the borderline category. Pretty good hops. Probably average speed.

zagco
03-29-2013, 08:10 PM
Zagco feels that Dranginis is very athletic, although since he did not get to play a bunch this year, Zagco bases that mostly on seeing him play when he was younger. He seemed extremely athletic then.

bartruff1
03-29-2013, 08:12 PM
Zagco takes an athlete over a skill guy everytime, unless it's a game of HORSE or a video shoot for a basketball drills instructional. Generally speaking, he would only take a skill guy if the skill guy had truly elite skills, like Larry Bird. Otherwise, it's athlete all the way.......

North Carolina had them...Kentucky had them...Cuse has them and so does Louisville...( I wonder what Few could do with that Carolina team ?)

Next year...Kentucky is suppose to have the best recruiting class ever and a odds on favorite to win the National Championship.

You could see the difference in the Nike Game that Pangos played in in Portland...many of those US guys are in the NBA now.

229SintoZag
03-29-2013, 08:25 PM
Any suggestion that Bell, Harris, KO, or GLE are not elite athletes is absurd.

Neither Larry Bird, nor John Stockton, nor Pistol Pete, nor even Magic was what some today would call an elite "athlete." All know how to play the game though.

We recruit basketball players. We ought not abandon that approach.

former1dog
03-29-2013, 08:32 PM
Any suggestion that Bell, Harris, KO, or GLE are not elite athletes is absurd.

Compared to who? Compared to you and I, sure. Compared to Oladipo or the injured kid from Kenucky or any of the former players for Gonzaga I mentioned, not really.

You can certainly be an elite basketball player and not be an elite athlete and vice versa. All of the guys you mention are in the former camp, not the latter. With the exception of GLE.

Ekrub
03-29-2013, 09:21 PM
Meech was quite the athlete

zagco
03-30-2013, 05:37 AM
Bird, Magic, and David's dad are 3 of the Top 50 greatest players in NBA history. Pistol Pete is the greatest college basketball player of all time. Elite skill is harder to find than elite athlete, Zagco believes. If you can find it, get it. But, if it is not elte skill, then Zagco takes the athlete every time. This may be a bit of looking at basically the same thing in a different way, but he generally is not impressed by HORSE champions and drill demonstrators. He looks for explosion, the ability to move and change direction by hopping and players who can recover from bad positions.

If he was advising a young kid who was looking to find a way to actually improve his athleticism, he would strongly advise learning and perfecting the art of Olympic lifting via cleans and snatches, and he would also advise sprinting with resistance, all meant to work the fast twitch muscles and get the mind used to explosive movement.

Harris looked out-athleted in the tourney. He looked a bit slow in the post, evidenced by several blocked shots. He looked too deliberate and not explosive.

For his size (Zagco tends to adjust his thinking a bit for truly big guys), he agrees that KO has unusual athleticism. Now, if that translates into the NBA is a bit of a different question, because everyone in the NBA is pretty dang big and you have a lot of elite athletes who can be 4 inches shorter but still play bigger.

TexasZag
03-30-2013, 05:57 AM
I think of the athlete vs skills guy as a continuum, with an all-athlete/no skills guy at one end, and a non-athletic, all-skills guy at the other. Between the two there are players that encompass varying levels of both skill and athleticism. An all-skills guy has to have some level of athleticism to be able to compete, as must the athlete have some level of basketball skill.

In other words, it's not a black and white issue. There are various combinations of athleticism and skill along the continuum that can be successful, but I just don't see the odds being in favor of the mostly skills guy when up against the athletic guy with enough skills. Maybe a well-coached team is less susceptible, pushing the point a little further down the continuum toward the all-skills player--depending on match ups--I think, if for no other reason than because they are likely to be more disciplined and can stay within the offense or defense that the staff has designed to combat the other team's strengths.

Just my thoughts.

rijman
03-30-2013, 07:43 AM
I don't think of KO as an elite athlete yet he is an AA. How about Ammo, look what he and Reddick accomplished in the same season, were they elite athletes? Was Jimmer an elite athlete? I don't think so. How about Hart, I don't consider him an elite athlete either. GLE may be the best athlete on the team this season and he played only a minor role. All things considered I prefer to have top basketball players like KO and Hart, if they also happen to be elite athlete's that can't be a bad thing.

jazzdelmar
03-30-2013, 07:55 AM
steven gray

former1dog
03-30-2013, 07:59 AM
One kid that will be amazing if he gets a little more skilled is Jito Kok for USD.

He has incredible athleticism in a tall, long body. He's one of those put a quarter on the top of the backboard talents.

MickMick
03-30-2013, 08:43 AM
Next season, the Zags will not be particularly athletic relative to other top teams in the country.

It will prove to be troublesome, but GU will still be a good team.

combatcorpsmangulaw
03-30-2013, 08:50 AM
Why not ask him? I have never been sold on Few's ability as a coach. I realize that criticizing Few, in Spokane, is like criticizing the Pope in Rome. Nevertheless, I think Few has a Plan A and only a Plan A in games. I have never gotten the impression that Few is flexible in changing the game's strategy during a game.

Watching the Louisville-Oregon game yesterday when half time came and Louisville was up by over 10 points, Pitino was interviewed on his way to the locker room. He said (words to the effect) that he didn't like winning the game as a result of offense -- he thought that offense alone was a losing proposition. He said that the half-time locker room would concentrate on Louisville concentrating on defense for the 2nd half. I may be wrong but MY IMPRESSION of Few is that he would have considered the lead as a product of the team doing all the right things during the first half.

I am wholeheartedly a fan of Gonzaga and have been since my wife and my kids could go to the GU game 15 minutes before the start and sit almost anywhere we wanted too. And, when the tallest guy on campus was our Center and a 500 season was considered a success.

I just don't think Few is that good a coach even though his win/loss record says I'm crazy.

bartruff1
03-30-2013, 09:05 AM
You complimentary close is spot on...your crazy...IMHO of course..

jim77
03-30-2013, 09:34 AM
Been thinking about this too.

I was thinking about what the team needed to do to get better for next year. To be honest we are already a skilled team...and a pretty decent athletic team..but not elite. If you look at what KO did in his off season...thats what this team needs to do this season.

They don't really need to work on personal skills..shooting ..dribbling....they need to work on becoming better athletes. In fact, they need to put the ball down and use their energy to do just that. Playing more games won't help them...getting faster,quicker and stronger will. I'm not saying they aren't good athletes..cause they are great athletes...I'm just saying that a small improvement is whats needed to put them over the top. Again, KO's new found atheticism transformed him from bench guy to ALL-American..in 1 year.

Leave the team skills for September till season starts....and from now till September...hit the gym. We get a bit better...we'll be there.

The lone exceptions is Karno and Sam...they need to work their post moves till they can do them in their sleep...and hit the weights.

Coleman and Nunez DO help our athletic situation and are huge additions to the team.....I honestly think we can be better next year if the guys work hard....I'm also hoping Drew B takes over Mike Harts mantle.

If KO comes back we are top 10 right away...either way we will be a force to be reckoned with....Dower/Karno development is critical...we're good everywhere else.

rijman
03-30-2013, 10:58 AM
I just don't think Few is that good a coach even though his win/loss record says I'm crazy.
You're entitled to your opinion and I am a Few fan, but I think you nailed it, you're crazy. There are many ways to judge a coaches success, one of those is winning percentage, another is trips to the NCAA tourney. In both of these categories Few has few peers. Mark Few is recognized as one of the top coaches in the game today, with very good reason.

jim77
03-30-2013, 11:17 AM
You're entitled to your opinion and I am a Few fan, but I think you nailed it, you're crazy. There are many ways to judge a coaches success, one of those is winning percentage, another is trips to the NCAA tourney. In both of these categories Few has few peers. Mark Few is recognized as one of the top coaches in the game today, with very good reason.

+100

It hurts losing sometimes but, the guy is the perfect fit. We always compete and as a fan I respect that. I wish GU would just sign the guy for a 15 year deal and end it. He may never win a championship but, you get a good guy who runs a great program...just a no nonsense type guy. Having some flashy ex-BCS hotdog just wouldn't work for the Zags....they are Blue collar...and so is the coach. I will say that having Ben Howland as an asst would be kinda cool. Spokane would be a welcome relief from that ratrace in LA.

combatcorpsmangulaw
03-30-2013, 12:45 PM
So, the love fest for Few is fine -- we'll win the WCC but that's about as far as we'll go. NCAA has middle of the road teams that make Few look like a mediocre coach. Few's teams can't get over the hump in the NCAA tournaments. That's a fact.

An excellent coach wouldn't be losing in the first and second round of the NCAA consistently.

gonzagafan62
03-18-2014, 09:02 AM
So what does everyone think of our athletes a year after the whole #1 ranking? Do our recruits and transfers look like "elite" athletes to you?

GoZags
03-18-2014, 09:22 AM
Here's what Fewie said 13 years ago after the back to back to back Sweet 16's (including the Elite 8). In many ways it rings true today.
------------------------
"It's kind of a misnomer about us. It's almost funny. They assume we are not very athletic. It's a big mistake." MarkFew12/01

BTB
03-18-2014, 09:27 AM
Here's what Fewie said 13 years ago after the back to back to back Sweet 16's (including the Elite 8). In many ways it rings true today.
------------------------
"It's kind of a misnomer about us. It's almost funny. They assume we are not very athletic. It's a big mistake." MarkFew12/01

Agreed.. we aren't athletic in the traditional sense, but our bigs are very coordinated with great hands and footwork. Karno is a superb athlete for his size. David is ridiculously quick.. we are athletic in ways people don't count as "athletic" as in we can't run a 4.3 40 or jump out of the gym.

Angel is the only elite athlete on our team in the traditional sense.

BULLDOG#1
03-18-2014, 09:33 AM
for a man his size, Karnowski is a pretty amazing athlete.

When healthy, Bell should be considered an elite athlete.

rennis
03-18-2014, 11:45 AM
Compared to me, they're all elite athletes.

Compared to most of the WCC, they're all elite athletes

Compared to most of the teams in the tournament, we have a nice balance of athletic ability and shooting ability.

Compared to the teams most likely to be in the Final Four, I would say we have a few guys who would hold their own against the guys who will play in April

It's all relative.

rennis
03-18-2014, 11:49 AM
Do I think our first round opponent has some elite athletes?

................ .. ... . .... ........


http://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/markel-brown-steal-and-360-against-west-virginia-b.gif

2wiceright
03-18-2014, 01:07 PM
Do I think our first round opponent has some elite athletes?

................ .. ... . .... ........


http://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/markel-brown-steal-and-360-against-west-virginia-b.gif

Good point, but then again it's nothing Pargo couldn't have done at 6'1" (or 6'2).... And we can't count or chickens, etc., but I wouldn't be surprised if Melson doesn't turn into that type of athlete (he's on his way, already). :boxing:

TheOtherGreatOne
03-18-2014, 01:09 PM
we have 3 athletes on this team but that is irrelevant because 2 of them won't play. bell is the only one that will. nunez and coleman might get 5 minutes each if that. that doesn't matter in the wcc but this is the big dance and it will matter.

seacatfan
03-18-2014, 03:18 PM
we have 3 athletes on this team but that is irrelevant because 2 of them won't play. bell is the only one that will. nunez and coleman might get 5 minutes each if that. that doesn't matter in the wcc but this is the big dance and it will matter.

Yeah, this. Few has a formula that works for winning WCC titles but totally different type of competition the Zags are facing now. If you think Okie State has some athletes, wait til you see Nick Johnson, Aaron Gordon and Rondae Hollis-Jefferson from Arizona.

Oregonzagnut
03-18-2014, 03:37 PM
Its not about just being an elite athlete, what is implied is they are also slightly oversized for their position and therefore have an advantage over opponents of equal skill. However, to have "elite" athletes who can jump out of the gym but who struggle with offensive sets or shooting, and that athleticism is somewhat neutralized. Windmill dunks are impressive and can inspire the team, but if his main skill is to dribble, drive and slam dunk, those guys can be broken down patient and precise ball movement and a fundamentally strong defense. Force them to shoot contested jump shots and FT's, then we will see how good a "basketball" player they really are.

In the end, every elite athletic team can lose to an opponent who is fundamentally sound and shoots 50+% from three.

DADoZAG
03-18-2014, 03:44 PM
Yeah, this. Few has a formula that works for winning WCC titles but totally different type of competition the Zags are facing now. If you think Okie State has some athletes, wait til you see Nick Johnson, Aaron Gordon and Rondae Hollis-Jefferson from Arizona.

Are you saying the tourney committee set this up so Okie State beats GU with it's perimeter length and athleticism, something GU doesn't have, then Arizona beats Okie State because all they have is perimeter length and athleticism but insufficient paint presence thus dropping two troublesome teams with insufficient advertising markets?

No?

It must have been me that said that then...

Huh.

Coach Few, PROOVE THEM, AND MY SEASON LONG RANTING, WRONG, PLEASE...

Go ZAGS!

PS: Actually, I think the ZAGS can get to the second weekend if they play their best ball and use all their resources, and if they do I'll gladly print this post and eat it.

seacatfan
03-18-2014, 03:53 PM
Are you saying the tourney committee set this up so Okie State beats GU with it's perimeter length and athleticism, something GU doesn't have, then Arizona beats Okie State because all they have is perimeter length and athleticism but insufficient paint presence thus dropping two troublesome teams with insufficient advertising markets?

No?

It must have been me that said that then...

Huh.

Coach Few, PROOVE THEM, AND MY SEASON LONG RANTING, WRONG, PLEASE...

Go ZAGS!

PS: Actually, I think the ZAGS can get to the second weekend if they play their best ball and use all their resources, and if they do I'll gladly print this post and eat it.

No, I wasn't getting that deep. Gonzaga can certainly beat OSU. I think the chances of that are much better than them beating Arizona. I was just saying if the Zags do get by OSU and their athletes, there's another batch of really athletic guys to look forward to playing. Assuming UA beats Weber St., but that seems like a safe bet.

deathchina
03-18-2014, 04:03 PM
To me, being "athletic" means having a physical characteristic or characteristics that give you an advantage over other players. For instance, being a 6 foot 9 point guard (magic johnson) gave him a HUGE advantage over shorter pgs. John Stockton had freakishly large hands that allowed him greater control in his ball handling...also deceptively quick and strong. Other "athletes" are very easy to spot..Durant has amazing body control, height, length, and fluiditiy. Lebron has strength, leaping ability, coordination, etc.

Great athletes we've had in the past include Santangelo, Pargo, Knight, Heytvelt (pre weight gain)...

Not sure any on our current roster have a huge athletic advantage over their opposition..maybe PK with his height/weight.

seacatfan
03-18-2014, 04:13 PM
To me, being "athletic" means having a physical characteristic or characteristics that give you an advantage over other players. For instance, being a 6 foot 9 point guard (magic johnson) gave him a HUGE advantage over shorter pgs. John Stockton had freakishly large hands that allowed him greater control in his ball handling...also deceptively quick and strong. Other "athletes" are very easy to spot..Durant has amazing body control, height, length, and fluiditiy. Lebron has strength, leaping ability, coordination, etc.

Great athletes we've had in the past include Santangelo, Pargo, Knight, Heytvelt (pre weight gain)...

Not sure any on our current roster have a huge athletic advantage over their opposition..maybe PK with his height/weight.

Interesting points. I would define the term "athletic" in regards to basketball players differently than you, but there's no denying Magic had a big advantage being a 6-9 PG. Not that he's going to be the next Magic, but UCLA has a player that is around 6-8 that is multi-skilled, triple double threat (Kyle Anderson). You would not describe him as being particularly athletic. His nickname is Slow Mo, gives you some idea he's not the quickest/fastest/most explosive guy on the court. But he's a matchup nightmare for just about everybody they play against.

Zagceo
03-18-2014, 04:28 PM
This is an elite athlete Andrew Wiggins (http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=10624512) that comes from elite genes.

deathchina
03-18-2014, 06:49 PM
This is an elite athlete Andrew Wiggins (http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=10624512) that comes from elite genes.


Wiggins has a TREMENDOUSLY quick and explosive second/third/fourth jump. Shades of Dennis Rodman.

BobZag
03-19-2014, 09:28 AM
Wiggins has a TREMENDOUSLY quick and explosive second/third/fourth jump. Shades of Dennis Rodman.

When you gonna change your name to deathnorthkorea? :p

deathchina
03-19-2014, 11:29 AM
Lollollol The origins of my name have nothing to do with any sort of animosity towards China.

I'm actually half Chinese (or Taiwanese to be more specific).

Just one of those things....

go zags!




When you gonna change your name to deathnorthkorea? :p

cjm720
03-19-2014, 11:36 AM
Interesting points. I would define the term "athletic" in regards to basketball players differently than you, but there's no denying Magic had a big advantage being a 6-9 PG. Not that he's going to be the next Magic, but UCLA has a player that is around 6-8 that is multi-skilled, triple double threat (Kyle Anderson). You would not describe him as being particularly athletic. His nickname is Slow Mo, gives you some idea he's not the quickest/fastest/most explosive guy on the court. But he's a matchup nightmare for just about everybody they play against.

I think Anderson is the most underrated player in the country.

Ekrub
03-19-2014, 12:03 PM
I might have been hallucinating but I think people in this thread claimed that Karnowski was athletic, 2 times.

tobizag
03-19-2014, 12:13 PM
I might have been hallucinating but I think people in this thread claimed that Karnowski was athletic, 2 times.

if a 7'1" 300 lb man who runs the court as fast as the average 6 footer, has soft hands, great vision, and decent agility on defense isn't athletic, i don't know what is

75Zag
03-19-2014, 12:23 PM
Ten or twenty years ago "athleticism" was a polite society code word for young black players who could run like the wind and jump like magicians. Thus when speaking of GU's opponents such as Michigan St., the CBS talking heads always referred to teams like Michigan St. as having "more altheticism" than GU and we all knew what they meant.

To me a great athlete is a combination of learned skills and lucky DNA. We have a couple on our current roster and have had many over the years.

Go Bulldogs!

seacatfan
03-19-2014, 01:17 PM
Ten or twenty years ago "athleticism" was a polite society code word for young black players who could run like the wind and jump like magicians. Thus when speaking of GU's opponents such as Michigan St., the CBS talking heads always referred to teams like Michigan St. as having "more altheticism" than GU and we all knew what they meant.

To me a great athlete is a combination of learned skills and lucky DNA. We have a couple on our current roster and have had many over the years.

Go Bulldogs!

"Smart" players was another kind of code word along the same lines. Athleticism is hard to define, perceptions of it vary. Some guys are fast in a straight line but maybe somebody else is "quicker," ie. anticipates better or can change directions better. Some guys don't move laterally as well as forward or backward. Some guys can jump high once but then have to regather. Others can keep going up like a pogo stick. How high you jump might not matter if someone else gets to the high point of their jump before you do, might go back to anticipation again, or reaction time. Strength can be a benefit in basketball but not a necessity. Some guys are built like brick walls. Others are wiry and not bulky but deceptively strong. Hand eye coordination is big. So is reaction time as mentioned above. Having big hands or long arms is definitely a huge bonus. Some of those physical attributes can be worked on but to some extent you're stuck with the physical tools you were born with. And deficiencies in any of these areas might be overcome by being a "cerebral" player but that's also hard to define exactly what that means.

FuManShoes
03-19-2014, 01:24 PM
When it comes to basketball, I think athleticism is usually defined as a combination of superior speed, strength and explosiveness. Even players of superior size and strength can be neutralized if they lack lift and have slow reactions (see Karno and the number of times he gets stripped of the ball or blocked). I think Nunez has the biggest combination of speed, strength and explosiveness on this team. Unfortunately it doesn't translate much on offense because he can't dribble, shoot or play with his back to the basket, so he's an offensive foul (or rebound) waiting to happen. That said we still have a nice team because we are skilled and smart and have some size and speed, if not a lot of sheer "athleticism."

Zagceo
03-19-2014, 01:27 PM
+100

It hurts losing sometimes but, the guy is the perfect fit. We always compete and as a fan I respect that. I wish GU would just sign the guy for a 15 year deal and end it. He may never win a championship but, you get a good guy who runs a great program...just a no nonsense type guy. Having some flashy ex-BCS hotdog just wouldn't work for the Zags....they are Blue collar...and so is the coach. I will say that having Ben Howland as an asst would be kinda cool. Spokane would be a welcome relief from that ratrace in LA.

Don't think a contract means anything because he stays however long he wants and he can go whenever he wants so a contract means very little imo.

kitzbuel
03-19-2014, 01:42 PM
Ten or twenty years ago "athleticism" was a polite society code word for young black players who could run like the wind and jump like magicians. Thus when speaking of GU's opponents such as Michigan St., the CBS talking heads always referred to teams like Michigan St. as having "more altheticism" than GU and we all knew what they meant.

Exactly

seacatfan
03-19-2014, 01:44 PM
When it comes to basketball, I think athleticism is usually defined as a combination of superior speed, strength and explosiveness. Even players of superior size and strength can be neutralized if they lack lift and have slow reactions (see Karno and the number of times he gets stripped of the ball or blocked). I think Nunez has the biggest combination of speed, strength and explosiveness on this team. Unfortunately it doesn't translate much on offense because he can't dribble, shoot or play with his back to the basket, so he's an offensive foul (or rebound) waiting to happen. That said we still have a nice team because we are skilled and smart and have some size and speed, if not a lot of sheer "athleticism."

Could be my imagination, but it seems like early in his career Karno was good about keeping the ball up high and not getting stripped. Seems like he was developed bad habits. Bless him he had a great career as a Zag but Sacre used to drive me NUTS getting stripped or getting swatted by smaller players. Couldn't for the life of me figure out how such a big strong guy could seem so much smaller than he really was on the court. Initially I was relieved because it didn't look like Karno was going to be a victim of that. Now I'm not so sure, at times it seems like Sacre is back in a Zags uniform.

kitzbuel
03-19-2014, 01:52 PM
Could be my imagination, but it seems like early in his career Karno was good about keeping the ball up high and not getting stripped. Seems like he was developed bad habits. Bless him he had a great career as a Zag but Sacre used to drive me NUTS getting stripped or getting swatted by smaller players. Couldn't for the life of me figure out how such a big strong guy could seem so much smaller than he really was on the court. Initially I was relieved because it didn't look like Karno was going to be a victim of that. Now I'm not so sure, at times it seems like Sacre is back in a Zags uniform.

Karno is way better at not getting stripped than Sacre was. Sacre infuriated me, too, with his getting stripped by guards all the time. I think Karno has much better coordination than Rob and can control himself in the flow of a play; adjusting and reacting in mid-motion. Rob's motions were more disjointed; he seemed to need some sort of start and stop to each motion.

BTB
03-19-2014, 02:20 PM
Karno is way better at not getting stripped than Sacre was. Sacre infuriated me, too, with his getting stripped by guards all the time. I think Karno has much better coordination than Rob and can control himself in the flow of a play; adjusting and reacting in mid-motion. Rob's motions were more disjointed; he seemed to need some sort of start and stop to each motion.

+1 spot on.

U Zig, I Zag
03-19-2014, 03:06 PM
Karno is way better at not getting stripped than Sacre was. Sacre infuriated me, too, with his getting stripped by guards all the time. I think Karno has much better coordination than Rob and can control himself in the flow of a play; adjusting and reacting in mid-motion. Rob's motions were more disjointed; he seemed to need some sort of start and stop to each motion.

PK is a revelation in this regard. He is far more basketball aware and he can finish with more finesse/ball control then Rob ever did (I learned to love Rob, however).

Karno, if he stays two more, is an all-American IMHO and certainly an NBA'r.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

zag buddy
03-19-2014, 04:23 PM
Sacre had awfully small hands for a big man.

seacatfan
03-19-2014, 04:36 PM
Agree that Karnowski is better than Sacre in those regards, but he still gets stripped and swatted more often than I would like to see. Maybe it's a double edged sword with a player like him, if he really utilizes his size he's opening himself up to get offensive foul calls. Refs do seem to like to blow the whistle when a 200 lb. guy bounces off of a 300 lb. guy, even if the 300 lb. guy didn't do anything wrong. Then when he doesn't use his size he gets criticized for not using his size. Maybe Shaq wrote a book about how to deal w/ this? (although Shaq got away with more obvious offensive fouls than anyone else in the history of basketball)

Bogozags
03-20-2014, 07:26 AM
PK is HEAD and SHOULDERS above Robert Sacre (RS) at this point in their Zag careers. RS never kept the ball up and he didn't have good footwork. He could shoot with his off-hand still committed stupid fouls. PK does most of the time, keep the ball above his head, he shoots with both hands, has excellent footwork and doesn't commit stupid fouls, that isn't say he doesn't get into early foul trouble. He does BUT that's from still trying to adjust to how the game is being called. I also recall, when he did't have any fouls in the first half. Oh, going out on a limb here but also believe his a better shot blocker too.

bballbeachbum
03-20-2014, 07:39 AM
Ten or twenty years ago "athleticism" was a polite society code word for young black players who could run like the wind and jump like magicians. Thus when speaking of GU's opponents such as Michigan St., the CBS talking heads always referred to teams like Michigan St. as having "more altheticism" than GU and we all knew what they meant.

good call. and like seacat said, 'smart' had its own coded meaning as well in the past. Nice to see that has evolved tho it is still there in some circles of course