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View Full Version : If Olynyk comes back, are we a better team next year?



Seatown
03-27-2013, 12:02 PM
Losing Hart and Harris hurts, no doubt. But with another year of seasoning for Pangos and Bell, how much better could our backcourt get? Could Bell finally gain enough confidence to be a guy who we can trust to create his own shot?

Can Coleman adequately play the 3? I sure hope so, he seems crazy talented, unlike any player we have this year. A slasher, very good at getting to the rim. If he played against Wichita, no way we lose that game in my opinion.

How good is Nunez? If he can gain some toughness, maybe the loss of Harris doesn't hurt so much. Not necessarily known for rebounding, but anybody who is 6-8 with a good jumper can always be dangerous.

The biggest key to me is the progression of Dower and Karnowski. If they both solidly improve, look out next year.

Yes, I am still having issues getting over the disappointment of this year, but there is plenty of hope for next year. Rebounding will be the biggest issue, but if Dower can improve there, there is a chance we are even better next year.

former1dog
03-27-2013, 12:10 PM
Not really, IMHO. Hart was huge for us. Elias Harris is one of the best players ever for Gonzaga.

hooter73
03-27-2013, 12:10 PM
No. Ok, its impossible to say, but IMO no matter how much better the guards get (and the addition of Coleman and Nunez), Harris and Hart are HUGE senior leadership, examples, and hard work losses.

Mr Vulture
03-27-2013, 12:16 PM
Harris provided leadership and rebounding but really regressed offensively this year. As much as Hart provided in hustle plays and defense, I do think that Barham can be a poor mans version of him. I think that Coleman adds athleticism to the 2/3 spots on the floor and Nunez adds the same at the 3/4 spots on the floor. I personally expect Draginis and Karnowski to be much improved next year which will hopefully lead to more minutes for both. So, if Olynyk returns, I do think we CAN be better. If not, it will be a different type team that will rely on the perimeter more than this year.

TexasZagFan
03-27-2013, 12:27 PM
Not really, IMHO. Hart was huge for us. Elias Harris is one of the best players ever for Gonzaga.

Elias was a 4 year starter and the #2 rebounder of all time at GU.

It could be a better team, if we base "better" on making it to the Sweet 16 or better.

Will it be a team that achieves a #1 ranking in the polls? That's not even on my radar screen.

Malastein
03-27-2013, 12:34 PM
Even without KO, I think the zags might have a chance to be better. Zags weren't a great perimeter team, and they should be much more balanced with Coleman. I really wish Trent Lockett had come aboard since the Zags may not have lost a game yet.

McZag
03-27-2013, 12:35 PM
Not without Mark Few

ZagLawGrad
03-27-2013, 12:36 PM
Don't think so absent some major improvement by Karno and Dower.

aflac4life
03-27-2013, 12:48 PM
Of course we are, sweet 16 at least.

zag944
03-27-2013, 12:51 PM
Ranking, record, and seeding wise no. Absolutely not.

Silver lining is I think we could go father in the tournament whether he is here or not (obviously here would be much much better). It would be a comparable disappointment to this years tourney if Kelly came back for 1 more year and we had a similar exit, even if we were a lower seed and expectations weren't as high. If he isnt back....well, pretty much any team in the tourney can get to the Sweet 16, and I think we will make the tourney and be better than a good portion of the teams in it.

spike_jr
03-27-2013, 12:53 PM
I don't know. What Hart and Harris brought to the table is going to be difficult to replace. But I can tell you that I would sure like to find out!!

U Zig, I Zag
03-27-2013, 12:54 PM
Of course we are, sweet 16 at least.

I see what you did there...



I think another year under the belts of Pangos and Bell, coupled with KO and *anyone* playing anything like full-featured basketball at the 3 would be a better team than this years team. Even w/o E.

Reborn
03-27-2013, 01:07 PM
:lmao:

This is like asking if Gonzaga would have been better if Ammo had come back for another season. I also believe that Ammo was more prepared for the NBA, talent wise, then Kelly. Kelly has a ways to go, imo, until he is ready to play in the NBA. If Kelly comes back next year he's a lotto pick. If he goes this year he's a late first round or second round pick.

Kelly is a bonefied 20 points a game scorer, and is improving all the time in rebounding and on his defense. He still has a way to go I think. Give him another year and he can be a double double almost every game.

As much as I like Elias Harris, the team can be better without him. He was very inconsistent this year, especially with bringing fire every night. He was up and down all year. Elias was also extremely limited in his talent. He had no outside shot from beyong the arc this year at all, and honestly he really had no outside shot at all, not even from the elbow. He would just get the ball and attack relentlessly every time. It worked in the WCC but not against teams with tough inside players, which both Southern and Wichita St had.

Dower will definitely bring outside shooting. The big questions for Sam are can he defend and can he rebound?

PK will be better next year. He needs more playing time. He also needs to lose more weight. We will see how dedicated he is to doing that. He does have good hands, and also has a decent touch on his shot. He now just needs to play more and get more confidence. I really like his potential.

Kevin Pangos ended this season on a very high note, unlike last year. That is important I think. I look for great things from Kevin next year. He will be a better scorer next year.

Gary Bell Jr is a very good guard, but was really injury prone this year. Dranginis really needs to step up offensively next year and get confidence in his outside shooting. And Few needs to help him get that confidence. He should be a much, much better shooter than he was this year.

I think Drew Barham should alot of progress late in the season. I like the way he plays alot. He is the perfect bench player I think. He's a guy who CAN come in and give you both hustle and points. Dranginis needs to get to this level next year.

If GU is going to be better next year, David Stockton will have to play less minutes. I hate to say that but unfortunately I believe it's true. It's not that David isn't a very good player. He is. And his IQ is outrageous. He is simply too short to defend good offensive scorers and shooters. And if he guards the point guard then Kevin is too short to guard most twos. I also believe his inability to shoot from the outside hurts the team as they can sag off him and help inside on our post players. As I said on another post, the players he was guarding made three of their last six shots.

I haven't seen Coleman play yet, but everything I have read on him indicates he will be a strong 3. There was a very big hole at the 3 on offense this year, and Coleman is the solution to that, I think. Players will have to defend him, which will certainly open things up for Kelly in the middle. I don't know anything about Angel Nunez, but I think if he got recruited by Louisville that he must have some potential there, and Mark Few and his staff is really, really good at player development.

This will be a very good team without Kelly. But it will be a great team with him, and imo, it will be better then this years team.

thespywhozaggedme
03-27-2013, 01:10 PM
:lmao:

This is like asking if Gonzaga would have been better if Ammo had come back for another season. I also believe that Ammo was more prepared for the NBA, talent wise, then Kelly. Kelly has a ways to go, imo, until he is ready to play in the NBA. If Kelly comes back next year he's a lotto pick. If he goes this year he's a late first round or second round pick.Kelly is a bonefied 20 points a game scorer, and is improving all the time in rebounding and on his defense. He still has a way to go I think. Give him another year and he can be a double double almost every game.

As much as I like Elias Harris, the team can be better without him. He was very inconsistent this year, especially with bringing fire every night. He was up and down all year. Elias was also extremely limited in his talent. He had no outside shot from beyong the arc this year at all, and honestly he really had no outside at all, not even from the elbow. He would just get the ball and attack relentlessly every time. It worked in the WCC but not against teams with tough inside players, which both Southern and Wichita St had.

Dower will definitely bring outside shooting. The big questions for Sam is can he defend and can he rebound?

PK will be better next year. He needs more playing time. He also needs to lose more weight. We will see how dedicated he is to doing that. He does have good hands, and also has a decent touch on his shot. He now just needs to play more and get more confidence. I really like his potential.

Kevin Pangos ended this season on a very high note, unlike last year. That is important I think. I look for great things from Kevin next year. He will be a better scorer next year.

Gary Bell Jr is a very good guard, but was really injury prone this year. Dranginis really needs to step up offensively next year and get confidence in his outside shooting. And Few needs to help him get that confidence. He should be a much, much better shooter than he was this year.

I think Drew Barham should alot of progress late in the season. I like the way he plays alot. He is the perfect bench player I think. He's a guy who CAN come in and give you both hustle and points. Dranginis needs to get to this level next year.

If GU is going to be better next year, David Stockton will have to play less minutes. I hate to say that but unfortunately I believe it's true. It's not that David isn't a very good player. He is. And his IQ is outrageous. He is simply too short to defend good offensive scorers and shooters. And if he guards the point guard then Kevin is too short to guard most twos. I also believe his inability to shoot from the outside hurts the team as they can sag off him and help inside on our post players. As I said on another post, the players he was guarding made three of their last six shots.

I haven't seen Coleman play yet, but everything I have read on him indicates he will be a strong 3. There was a very big hole at the 3 on offense this year, and Coleman is the solution to that, I think. Players will have to defend him, which will certainly open things up for Kelly in the middle. I don't know anything about Angel Nunez, but I think if he got recruited by Louisville that he must have some potential there, and Mark Few and his staff is really, really good at player development.

This will be a very good team without Kelly. But it will be a great team with him, and imo, it will be better then this years team.

Wanna bet? If he's a lotto pick, you change your user name to my choosing. If he's "late first or second" as you believe, I will change my handle to any name that you like. Deal?

hegotit!
03-27-2013, 01:11 PM
It will be great if Kelly is back next year!! Agree the team may even be better than this year!

Arneson
03-27-2013, 01:28 PM
I think if you balance out losing Hart and Harris with Olynyk, Pangos, and Bell being back next year and being even more improved we would have a team that is about the same strength as this year.

Harris is one of my all time favorites at GU, but I do agree he can be inconsistent at times. I can't believe he had 12 points against Wichita, I feel like I barely saw him.

Hart obviously does a lot, especially as far as offensive rebounds, but I don't think it will hurt the team drastically to replace him with someone who has more scoring potential.

I doubt we would achieve an overall #1 ranking even if the team improved, even a #1 seed is in my opinion going to be highly unlikely now come tournament time unless we show we can get further in the tourney.

jimmy b
03-27-2013, 01:41 PM
Wanna bet? If he's a lotto pick, you change your user name to my choosing. If he's "late first or second" as you believe, I will change my handle to any name that you like. Deal?

no way imo would KO be a late first / 2nd rounder if he goes.

I'd expect top 10.

zag944
03-27-2013, 01:57 PM
Nearly everything Ive seen projects Kelly in the late lottery/low teens area. No chance he falls to the second round. He's a talented 7 footer with a massively diverse skill set that he uses efficently and intelligently. I dont know what else he would show in a senior season that would raise his stock to any significant degree.

Hoopaholic
03-27-2013, 01:58 PM
I am in SPY........if KO goes 14 or above in first round I will change my name to whatever you like (short of foul of course)

if he goes 15 or lower in first round, or second round or stays put with the zags you change your screen name to what I designated

*****with all the doggone attorneys on this board it has been suggested that in my best interest that I ask for full faith and disclosure and ensure that a clear contractual timeline is established for the "name" change involving either party:D

I honestly dont think he goes early, I suspect he will get feedback that he is a late first rounder possibly touching early second round due to lack of consistency in finishing up, near and around the rim coupled with needing more body strenght to handle constant pounding ..........

BUT in all fairness I have not watched an NBA game since 1985 in its entirety and short of the snippets on ESPN sportscenter I might be full of it as it pertains to my opinion. Merely gauging off what some of the other bigs did, where they were at and how they ended up.

rennis
03-27-2013, 02:08 PM
No matter what I think they reload and have a great 2014 campaign. I'm excited to see what Dower can do with the spotlight and a summer of focused conditioning. Dude needs to break out!

Coleman is the X-Factor for the known players IMO. he puts up the same numbers as he did in the BE, I think we have a great year. I also see Nunez doing some really great stuff for us. Barham is going to be key at times as well.

Losing Hart, Elias, and KO hurts, but there are guys just salivating to get out on that court and prove themselves. In a way I'm excited to see us migrate away from the front-court bias that has dominated GU hoops for a while. I love the systematic approach and domination in the paint, but going back to the roots with a bit more run 'n gun and more green lights for the guards is gonna be a heckuva lot of fun too. That's what I see coming, and honestly I think it plays to our coaches' strengths too.

I think we'll lose some games next year, for sure more than this year, but I think we're going to win some too. Probably more than the national media will predict to start the year...

On balance I don't see how next year's team could match this team's experience and savvy, but I also expect them to win the WCC crowns (both) and I predict them making a nice run in the NCAA's too. I don't think seed will matter much either. Not after what happened this year...

cjm720
03-27-2013, 02:15 PM
Better than not having KO? Of course...

Losing Harris/Hart with KO back, I think it's a wash. Time will tell, but every year we lose a great player (Bouldin, Ammo) we come back stronger than expected...we'll likely go to a more guard oriented lineup and Dower/PK will establish themsevles as very good players IMO.


Another 25+ season here we come.

Hoopaholic
03-27-2013, 02:21 PM
Big SAM....whatcha gonna bring to the table next year ......defense and a secondary offensive option really needs to be a focus for him in off season....cleans those up can be a critical part of success

Karno I truly think you will see a different beast next year...his time to truly compete for high minutes/starting job will unleash the beast

Coleman and Nunez have me excited ...but are the unknowns

Can it be november yet?

MDABE80
03-27-2013, 02:22 PM
It would be the jackpot. We'd be better for many reasons. FF better" Not sure but we'd be better. The guards have seen Kally for 1 year. A 2nd would help.
Meanwhile how to replace Elias...???

flytiezag
03-27-2013, 03:49 PM
Next year we will have four scoring guards as only having two most of the time this year.Kevin and Gary will be helped with kyle@Gerald.Most of the best teams have more than two proven scoring guards.Look at Wichita they were shooting threes from all over the place that's what we need.Also we will have a scoring three Drew.Wildcard in Angel and two newbees to use or red shirt.Our bigs will be good to excellent depends on Kelly.Next year is the team to be encouraged about.This is only my opinion and with a great coach like Mark and great pieces to work with next year will be great.Only problem is waiting I so love to watch these wonderful young men play basketball thanks for a wonderful year this year looking forward to next year.

Bogozags
03-27-2013, 03:56 PM
It would be the jackpot. We'd be better for many reasons. FF better" Not sure but we'd be better. The guards have seen Kally for 1 year. A 2nd would help.
Meanwhile how to replace Elias...???

My guess would be for KO to "lite fires" under SD and KP and the "new guys"...it can be done!

mgadfly
03-27-2013, 03:57 PM
Better than not having KO? Of course...

Losing Harris/Hart with KO back, I think it's a wash. Time will tell, but every year we lose a great player (Bouldin, Ammo) we come back stronger than expected...we'll likely go to a more guard oriented lineup and Dower/PK will establish themsevles as very good players IMO.


Another 25+ season here we come.

2006: 29-4 a turnover away from an elite 8 appearance. Morrison/Batista leave.
2007: 23-11 first round loss.

2009: 28-6 (#7 KP) sweet 16 loss to eventual national champs. Heytvelt/Daye/Pargo/Downs leave.
2010: 27-7 (#57 KP) 22 point loss in Round of 32. Bouldin leaves.
2011: 25-10, (#29 KP) 22 point loss in Round of 32. Gray leaves.

We might be able to say that we have reloaded after losing guards. The last two times we lost forwards/posts anywhere close to KO/Harris we had a major drop off the next season.

I think our worst years were 2007 and 2010, the years after we lost big time players. Next season we will most likely have unproven players at 3 of the 5 starting positions. We could be very good because Karno/KD showed some incredible skills early in the season, but we could easily be a couple steps back from where we were this season.

Oregonzagnut
03-27-2013, 04:16 PM
Yes we are a better team in the short run. But we need to develop Karnowski and Dower.

However, Karnowski and Dower as well as all the other players have 7 months to work on and improve astronomically if they want to compete for Kelly's PT, if they want to.

With Kelly back we would be a much stronger team to (dare I say) go further in the tournament, but we would not be a stronger team from top to bottom due to the PT being given to Kelly.

SanDiegoZag
03-27-2013, 04:18 PM
I think if Olynyk comes back, they could certainly be just as good. However, I am doubtful that he will stick around.

If the team relies on Pangos a lot next year (and he feels the need to keep chucking em up)...this team could stumble big time next year.

Karnowski has to make major improvements, and Bell needs to be more assertive on the offensive end.

If Coleman is the real deal, maybe he could be the Zags go to player? Hopefully, he can provide a slasher who will force defenses to play honest...and also provide somewhat of a mid-range game.

More than anything, the Zags need to develop a toughness. I feel like the only reason teams consistently hit 3's against the Zags is because they are just not scared of them. They need to punch the other team in the mouth and force the other team to fear them.

I think you see that a lot from VCU. They really may not be the most talented team, but they keep pressuring you and some teams choke up against them and play scared. A big time credit to Michigan for refusing to show any sign of weakness in VCU's recent loss.

cjm720
03-27-2013, 05:00 PM
Okay, 23+ wins...I'll take it!

gonwick
03-27-2013, 05:04 PM
I think next year is a down year unless ko returns. Kp will probably be about the same. No true backup pg, and stockton will be the same. Gary might be more aggressive, so possible uptick. The three is a wash, I think. I hope Coleman is good. Drew learned to play like hart, but isn't quite the same rebounding asset, although hopefully more of an offensive threat. Angel, hopefully an asset in the second half of the season, but no one will be watching us as intently in conference play (ranking only consideration). The four will be a big dropoff. Maybe Sam will surprise, but if ko is gone, I don't know who will fill his minutes. Karnowski has upside, but less is he plays for Poland. The two freshman strike me as redshirts if the staff feels they can get away with it. Suspect ranking in the low 20s wo Kelly (or getting votes). Double digit seed, sent to play someone near home, early exit.

BobZag
03-27-2013, 05:08 PM
With Kelly, yes. Without Kelly, no.

Stache
03-27-2013, 05:14 PM
E and Hart were a considerable part of this year's toughness and that will be hard to replace. Kelly is gone IMO. Reasons for and against are mostly well known.

After Meech and Hart, who both contributed in other ways, it would be interesting to see a Zags team with 5 well rounded ball players starting.

Stache
03-27-2013, 05:15 PM
Brevity is the sign of an organized mind. I wish this site had more "organization"

former1dog
03-27-2013, 05:26 PM
BYU making quick work of Southern Mississippi in the NIT quarterfinals.

Santa Clara down 6 early to Wright State in the CBI semi finals

BobZag
03-27-2013, 05:31 PM
Brevity is the sign of an organized mind. I wish this site had more "organization"

Yes.

Zags11
03-27-2013, 05:32 PM
Yes I believe so. We will miss Hart and Harris. I believe coleman will fill a huge roll. I believe we will return to sw16...whooooa too early. :)

former1dog
03-27-2013, 05:35 PM
BYU making quick work of Southern Mississippi in the NIT quarterfinals.

Santa Clara down 6 early to Wright State in the CBI semi finals

What the hell am I doing in this thread?

Pargo the Destroyer
03-27-2013, 06:13 PM
Someone mentioned Coleman at the 3 spot. He's a hair taller if not the same height as Pangos, not 6'4" like we've heard. You don't want him at the 3. Hopefully that's a Drainginis/Barham/Nunez kind of a thing. Then again Nunez may see time at the 4 if KO leaves. He's thin. You don't want him at the 4.

maynard g krebs
03-27-2013, 07:11 PM
With Harris losing his 3 pt shot, Stockton a poor shooter, Hart a reluctant shooter and Bell only shooting when wide open, perimeter scoring was a weakness at year end. KO and EH combined for 10 of 30 fg's in the last game. Over the course of the season, they combined to make about 17 of 30 on average. And Pangos was 6-17.

I think some of that can be traced to the fact that people didn't guard Hart or Stockton or Harris at the 3 pt line, the middle was clogged, and opponents only had to account for 2 outside shooters, then one when Bell went down.

Point is, if KO does come back, adding a couple of wings who can score, one a slashing threat, could make for a better offensive team. Seems odd to say that considering the offensive rating last year, but the team had weaknesses offensively that were exploited in the tournament by good defenses.

In the tournament it's a guard's game, and I hope next year to see better scoring balance. The guards need to score from the outside to open up the lane.

Malastein
03-28-2013, 12:31 AM
Our best players this season:

1. Olynyk
2. Harris
3. Pangos
4. Bell
5. Hart
6. Dower
7. Karnowski
8. Stockton
9. Dranginis

You could argue Hart over Bell, but I don't think he could offer the same great perimeter defense Bell did. Our top 7 had 4 players occupying 2 playing time spots, and that's what did this team in during the tourney. Pangos and Bell weren't quite good enough for the team to be truly dominant with the amazing front court, and there wasn't nearly enough behind them to keep guard play at a high level.

I noticed months ago that there wasn't enough movement off the ball, and that Pangos hasn't established himself as a premier shooter away from home. This led to teams deciding to hack away at the post players to make them question if they really wanted to go strong to the hole, and for teams to think the Zags were weak defending outside. I didn't notice anybody afraid to shoot over Stockton.

The reason I have hope that next season will be overall better is that I have a good amount of faith that Dower and Karnowksi will improve enough where there won't be that much of a let down from what Olynyk and Harris offered. I believe that Coleman will be a major upgrade at the 3, and that Dranginis will become good enough to drastically improve the backcourt.

The starting 5 next year has a chance to be better overall, and that means something.

NYCZAG
03-28-2013, 07:13 AM
They should have a great year! That being said BYU is going to be really good. Is Nick Emery playing for them next season? He is ridiculous! Better than Fredette!

jazzdelmar
03-28-2013, 07:42 AM
They should have a great year! That being said BYU is going to be really good. Is Nick Emery playing for them next season? He is ridiculous! Better than Fredette!

Sans KO, the Zags will be at best co-faves in the WCC w BYU to win it...if BYU wins NIT they will be installed as fave given recruiting class, KO leaving....

cjm720
03-28-2013, 08:15 AM
They should have a great year! That being said BYU is going to be really good. Is Nick Emery playing for them next season? He is ridiculous! Better than Fredette!

I think Emery is going on a mission...back in one or two years.

cjm720
03-28-2013, 09:03 AM
http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/21959620/byubound-emery-to-go-on-mission-before-playing-for-cougars

ZagHouse
03-31-2013, 09:29 AM
Is this our line-up if Kelly returns?
--------------Subs:
Kelly--------Karnowski
Sam-------- Nunez
Coleman----KD or Barham
Bell----------KD
Pangos------DS

I think if Coleman can get to the rim like he did at providence, Sam and Kelly can have a similar high low game sans Elias, and the guards can rebound we might be better. Sure we lose Hart on D, but defenses will have to respect Coleman's ability to score, something they didn't do with MH. With Angel not playing til 2nd semester, we'll be thin off the bench, unless Mielke is ready to contribute. My theory changes quite a bit if Kelly declares.

BobZag
03-31-2013, 10:22 AM
Is this our line-up if Kelly returns?
--------------Subs:
Kelly--------Karnowski
Sam-------- Nunez
Coleman----KD or Barham
Bell----------KD
Pangos------DS

I think if Coleman can get to the rim like he did at providence, Sam and Kelly can have a similar high low game sans Elias, and the guards can rebound we might be better. Sure we lose Hart on D, but defenses will have to respect Coleman's ability to score, something they didn't do with MH. With Angel not playing til 2nd semester, we'll be thin off the bench, unless Mielke is ready to contribute. My theory changes quite a bit if Kelly declares.

You got it. Will be a battle at the 3 between Coleman, Barham, Dranginis. GC and KD can play the 2 as well. Nunez is versatile, too. And we've had good years while rotating only three bigs so that doesn't concern me. But sans Kelly, Few needs a transfer (or two) to make the frontcourt viable.

Postplayer57
03-31-2013, 12:05 PM
Will Gonzaga be better?, if Olynck returns? With all due respect, is a pigs ass pork?

ZagNut08
03-31-2013, 02:45 PM
Will Gonzaga be better?, if Olynck returns? With all due respect, is a pigs ass pork?

I believe the op is asking if next years teams would be better than this years, not simply is Gonzaga better off with him.

MJ777
03-31-2013, 03:17 PM
I believe the op is asking if next years teams would be better than this years, not simply is Gonzaga better off with him.

That makes sense and is a good question. I think EH and Hart will be hard to replace, but if Kelly comes back I would say they would be about as good although I don't think they match 31 wins in the regular season.

bostonzagfan
03-31-2013, 04:13 PM
even if ko returns team probably doesn't match record, wins, or seed.

but with or without ko, the team can go further in the tournament.