PDA

View Full Version : What to do about conference affiliation...



ZagFanInNC
03-24-2013, 11:48 AM
I think that now more than ever it is evident that the WCC, as we are affiliated now, is not a good fit for tournament success. We play a difficult non-conference schedule in the first half of the season and then start playing down to the level of the other WCC teams. By the time the tournament starts we have forgotten what it is like to play against legitimate competition and we struggle in the tournament.

There are 2 realistic opportunities for GU to fix this problem:

1- Join the new Big East as a basketball only member while keeping other sports in the WCC.

Positives:

Better overall competition in conference play.
More money from their new Fox TV deal.
Stay in a basketball centric conference.
Be affiliated with like minded religious institutions (Butler as the exception)


Negatives:

Travel, travel, travel.
Lose current rivalries.
If we have an off season there is a chance that we... (gulp) might not make the tournament.


Unfortunately this is looking like less of a possibility since the new Big East announced they would not be expanding further in the near future. This would be a great opportunity for GU to really prove it is a national brand.. who knows, it could still happen.

2- Become a partial basketball member of the WCC and keep the rest of the sports fully in the WCC.

I think that this would be the best move for Gonzaga. Fortunately for GU we have all of the negotiating power in this relationship. If we threaten to leave the WCC I am almost positive they would bend over backwards to accommodate us.

Positives:

Negotiate a new TV deal (Fox, ESPN, Turner, a mix...). This would result in more money and better exposure proving we are a national brand.
Only play each WCC member once during the season opening up 10 more non-conference games.
Remain in the WCC conference tournament giving us a chance every year to make the tournament.


Negatives:

We wouldn't play a home and away every year in conference, it would just alternate every year.


I think this would easily be the best option for GU. We would have no problem negotiating a new TV deal with a network that would allow all of GU's games to be televised nationally. I really like Turner Sports and they have the multiple platforms that would allow for this.

We would also be able to eliminate the RPI dwellers in the conference for at least one game in the year. Adding 10 more non-conference games, specifically toward the end of the year, will allow us to increase our SOS and be prepared when it is tournament time.

I am really proud of what GU was able to accomplish this year but tournament success is really the barometer that teams are measured by in college basketball. I think either of these options would be an improvement, staying in the WCC as we are now is hurting us.

jim77
03-24-2013, 11:53 AM
Stay put.

bostonzagfan
03-24-2013, 11:56 AM
leave the wcc and there is a chance things get better and chance things get worse.

TheGonzagaFactor
03-24-2013, 12:54 PM
Only viable option would be the Mountain West.

Half WCC schedule? What are you even talking about? No one schedules OOC games late in the year. These things are completely unheard of.

bartruff1
03-24-2013, 01:05 PM
We are not going anywhere...

thespywhozaggedme
03-24-2013, 01:10 PM
MWC as a basketball only to balance out Hawaii as their football only.

TheGonzagaFactor
03-24-2013, 01:14 PM
We are not going anywhere...

Then we are never going past the first weekend. This conference is pathetic.

MJ777
03-24-2013, 01:16 PM
MWC as a basketball only to balance out Hawaii as their football only.

Did UH drop basketball or are they in another conference or Indy? When did UH join MWC in football?

bartruff1
03-24-2013, 01:16 PM
Then we are never going past the first weekend. This conference is pathetic.

Deal with it...

KStyles
03-24-2013, 01:40 PM
Did UH drop basketball or are they in another conference or Indy? When did UH join MWC in football?

IIRC, football joined MWC before last season, they're in the Big West for everything else (including MBB).

MJ777
03-24-2013, 01:45 PM
IIRC, football joined MWC before last season, they're in the Big West for everything else (including MBB).

Thanks for clueing me in. Good job by the way on GIAG. What a bunch of haters over there.

Nevermind KStyles. It was KStateZag that was taking on the haters over at GIAG.

thespywhozaggedme
03-24-2013, 01:46 PM
Did UH drop basketball or are they in another conference or Indy? When did UH join MWC in football?

Hawaii is Big West in hoops, football in MWC. They could use a basketball only school to balance Hawaii out. A conference with SDSU, UNM, Gonzaga, Colorado State, Utah State, UNLV, Boise, etc. would be the top conference in the west. I have no idea if Gonzaga's AD is aggressively pursuing that option or not, but it's a great idea.

zagco
03-24-2013, 01:49 PM
Zagco would not put MWC above Pac12, but it has a shot at establishing itself as a true power conference.

MJ777
03-24-2013, 01:50 PM
Hawaii is Big West in hoops, football in MWC. They could use a basketball only school to balance Hawaii out. A conference with SDSU, UNM, Gonzaga, Colorado State, Utah State, UNLV, Boise, etc. would be the top conference in the west. I have no idea if Gonzaga's AD is aggressively pursuing that option or not, but it's a great idea.

Sounds like a plan that makes sense. BYU should come along and go home again, but I guess that would make it unbalanced again. I would think that all other sports could fit in the MWC too.

But it probably won't happen.

Saxon_zag
03-24-2013, 02:14 PM
Thanks for clueing me in. Good job by the way on GIAG. What a bunch of haters over there.

Nevermind KStyles. It was KStateZag that was taking on the haters over at GIAG.

GIAG is full of loser sMC fans with a little brother complex when it comes to the zags. PEople here are rooting for and feel bad for SMC and delly when they lose. THe gaels fans love when the zags lose.

It would be cool to leave t he WCC and just leave SMC in it alone to beat up on SCU for eternity.

Tetonka Test
03-24-2013, 02:25 PM
This conference is a deadend.

Saint Mary's looks like it's back on the road to mediocrity (NCAA sanctions for cheating), and only Gonzaga and BYU have any upside.

Both Gonzaga and BYU should be trying to join the Big East, Catholic 7 right now.

If that isn't possible, then Gonzaga (and maybe BYU) should be trying to join the MWC as basketball / olympic sports only members. The competition in the MWC is better than the WCC, whether some here want to admit it or not (UNLV, SDSU, and UNM are always pretty good, every year).

Heck, at least the Missouri Valley has some schools that care about winning (Wichita State)

USF, USD, LMU, et al are all programs with no fan support and tiny budgets, and don't care about winning.

We need out of the WCC ASAP!

HillBillyZag
03-24-2013, 03:05 PM
New Big East makes no sense for several reasons. Unless that Conference agreed to consider defraying some travel expense, and/or spread a chunk of that TV revenue Westward, which IMHO is unlikely? it's not affordable. On the other hand, now that Butler and Xavier have bolted, I'm sure that St. Louis, Dayton, St. Joes, VCU, UMass, Richmond, Duquesne, Fordham, and St. Bonnies would be delighted to welcome Gonzaga and BYU into the A-10 and regain at the least?, the standing they lost? In addition the A10 would certainly remain at least a 4-5 bid Conference nearly every year. Makes sense to this fan.

surfmonkey89
03-24-2013, 03:06 PM
Will joining the MWC help us defend the three?

Nevada Don
03-24-2013, 03:13 PM
Thanks for clueing me in. Good job by the way on GIAG. What a bunch of haters over there.

Nevermind KStyles. It was KStateZag that was taking on the haters over at GIAG.

There you go.
"a bunch of haters on GIAG". There were a few negative comments about the Zags but just as many, more, supporting the Zags and the WCC. The "haters" were also challenged by SMC fans. Quit over generalizing. It doesn't lead to anything beneficial.

You guys showed your true colors with the Delly thread and you got rave reviews for it. Rightfully so. Don't get overly upset with a couple of wacko comments and GIAG should do the same.

Bocco
03-24-2013, 03:40 PM
There you go.
"a bunch of haters on GIAG". There were a few negative comments about the Zags but just as many, more, supporting the Zags and the WCC. The "haters" were also challenged by SMC fans. Quit over generalizing. It doesn't lead to anything beneficial.

You guys showed your true colors with the Delly thread and you got rave reviews for it. Rightfully so. Don't get overly upset with a couple of wacko comments and GIAG should do the same.

Every board has wackos, it's the nature of a message board.....that and unreal expectations,and a skewed view of reality. Most of have the ability to ignore yours as you do ours.

ZagHouse
03-24-2013, 05:18 PM
Didn't we just reclaim the WCC crown back after losing it last year? I also seem to recall three teams from our crappy conference made it into the tournament from last year. Some of the teams in our joke of a conference have had terrible luck in terms of injuries, transfers, and suspensions that may have helped the overall competition, but those things happen. San Diego will be a team that could be quite good next year as will BYU. Oh, and how did the MWC champ do in the tournament this year? How did that tough league prepare New Mexico? I'm all for moving our conference up, but to say our conference is the reason for what ails us is completely short sighted.

MJ777
03-24-2013, 05:20 PM
Every board has wackos, it's the nature of a message board.....that and unreal expectations,and a skewed view of reality. Most of have the ability to ignore yours as you do ours.

Well it was 4 out of the 10 or 11 regular poster, but oh well. You can now return to being uptight about someone posting a joke twice.

deathchina
03-24-2013, 05:24 PM
Butler made back to back NC games coming from a conference that was, if anything, slightly worse.

VinnyZag
03-24-2013, 05:33 PM
There are now exactly as many MWC teams alive in the tourney as WCC teams.

SunDevilGolfZag
03-24-2013, 05:35 PM
How about for starters play in the Maui Classic next year and quit the moaning about the WCC

CDC84
03-24-2013, 05:48 PM
Butler made back to back NC games coming from a conference that was, if anything, slightly worse.

The Big West and PCAA were WCC-like when UNLV played in those leagues in the Tarkanian days. One of the great myths about Tark is that his teams were loaded with McDonald's AA's. The 1990 title team only had one Burger Boy on it: Larry Johnson. The rest were non-top 100 players.

If you read Tark's autobiography, they went into league play each year with the specific goal of becoming the greatest defensive team ever. They used something besides the league to motivate their team to new heights. It kept the team playing hard at all times. They never lowered themselves to the competition.

MJ777
03-24-2013, 05:52 PM
The Big West and PCAA were WCC-like when UNLV played in those leagues in the Tarkanian days. One of the great myths about Tark is that his teams were loaded with McDonald's AA's. He didn't start landing super elite recruits until the late 80's and early 90's.

I thought this year's Zags resembled some of those UNLV teams in that they dominated a weaker conference and had great overall record. Guess I was wrong. Coach was too tight, team was too tight. Fewie should try sucking on a towel next year.

CDC84
03-24-2013, 06:00 PM
What UNLV used to do in the Big West and PCAA is beat teams by 30-50 points every night. As great as the Zags were this season, they were never that great. Maintaining that level of intensity allowed Vegas to remain sharp so that when they took on power conference teams it wasn't a total shock to the system. Of course those teams were highly athletic and prided themselves on defense. They also had a level of conditioning that no one could match.

Birddog
03-24-2013, 06:14 PM
The Big West and PCAA were WCC-like when UNLV played in those leagues in the Tarkanian days. One of the great myths about Tark is that his teams were loaded with McDonald's AA's. The 1990 title team only had one Burger Boy on it: Larry Johnson. The rest were non-top 100 players.

If you read Tark's autobiography, they went into league play each year with the specific goal of becoming the greatest defensive team ever. They used something besides the league to motivate their team to new heights. It kept the team playing hard at all times. They never lowered themselves to the competition.
Johnson came to UNLV from a Texas Juco, Midland I think and Billy Tubbs was close to getting him to go to OU.

bartruff1
03-24-2013, 06:28 PM
History and my bracket are demonstrative proof that your conference is not the deal breaker...

FGCU, America's Team...at least for a week.

CDC84
03-24-2013, 06:36 PM
Johnson came to UNLV from a Texas Juco, Midland I think and Billy Tubbs was close to getting him to go to OU.

He was a McDonald's AA coming out of high school, though. He originally committed to SMU, had academic issues, and spent two years at Odessa.

Billy Tubbs was close to getting him. John Thompson at G'Town as well.

Still one of my favorite college basketball players of all time.

Oregonzagnut
03-24-2013, 06:43 PM
IMO, our conference wasn't the problem this year. The issue for me is the layoff after the WCC tourney and the horrible habit of being conservative and playing not to lose. Our X's and O's are just fine. But we fell into our WORST habit of all...

Playing not to lose.

We played worse in the NCAA tourney than we did in the conference. If the #10 RPI conference was the problem, we should have at least played like we did in the WCC conference. But we played worse. Blaming the quality of the WCC is an excuse and it didn't hurt our 1999 team. It created it.

CDC84
03-24-2013, 06:52 PM
Might it be in GU's best interest to schedule a game in between the WCC title game and the start of the NCAA tournament? Like St. Mary's did a couple of times? They would only be able to play some low major team whose conference tournament ends early. It might keep the rust off. 10-11 days is just too long of a wait in between games.

MJ777
03-24-2013, 06:57 PM
Might it be in GU's best interest to schedule a game in between the WCC title game and the start of the NCAA tournament? Like St. Mary's did a couple of times? They would only be able to play some low major team whose conference tournament ends early. It might keep the rust off. 10-11 days is just too long of a wait in between games.

Good idea. I wish they could schedule a tough road game in early March (Creighton, Duke, Kansas, etc.) to experience additional tough situations. WCC road games are tough sometimes, but opponents are too familiar. Not likely to ever happen though.

TexasZag
03-24-2013, 07:00 PM
Didn't we just reclaim the WCC crown back after losing it last year? I also seem to recall three teams from our crappy conference made it into the tournament from last year. Some of the teams in our joke of a conference have had terrible luck in terms of injuries, transfers, and suspensions that may have helped the overall competition, but those things happen. San Diego will be a team that could be quite good next year as will BYU. Oh, and how did the MWC champ do in the tournament this year? How did that tough league prepare New Mexico? I'm all for moving our conference up, but to say our conference is the reason for what ails us is completely short sighted.

All of this is true; however, I also believe that it is short-sighted to pretend that our conference affiliation does not impact the team. I believe our conference affiliation may hurt us. For starters, I think the generally negative perceptions of the WCC creates hurdles to landing 4 and 5-star recruits that power conference schools simply do not have. While Gonzaga does quite well compared to the past, it still does not get 5-star/McD's All American-caliber studs. We do occasionally land a highly regarded recruit (e.g. Gary Bell), but we may not have quality depth behind them. I just don't believe that marquee recruits are all that anxious to play in smallish, 4-6,000 seat gyms, largely out of the glare of the national spotlight. And as deep as our front court was this year, was it more of an aberration than the status quo? If you recall, before we landed Karnowski and saw the payoff from Olynyk's redshirt year, there were real concerns that the front court would be this team's weakness, especially after losing Spangler to Oklahoma.

As it regards preparation for the NCAA tournament, maybe the caliber of competition we face in conference play is a handicap. The perception during conference play was that the WCC is a physical conference. Some even dared to suggest that it was every bit as physical as the Big East. While I am not disputing the validity of such arguments, it was clear from this weekend that we are not as adept against the physical play of a Southern or a Wichita State as we are against our conference foes. Elias especially seemed to have difficulty against both Southern and WSU.

Of course, this is just my opinion. And I am not slamming our conference affiliation. But I do not think it's fair to this team to ignore the affects of conference affiliation on the team we see on the floor.

ZagLawGrad
03-24-2013, 07:00 PM
Wasn't initially a fan of moving earlier this season----but the Mountain West is looking pretty good now.

The inability of Pepperdine, LMU and SF to raise the bar has damaged the WCC. And, of course, SMC's scheduling.

TexasZag
03-24-2013, 07:11 PM
Good idea. I wish they could schedule a tough road game in early March (Creighton, Duke, Kansas, etc.) to experience additional tough situations. WCC road games are tough sometimes, but opponents are too familiar. Not likely to ever happen though.

Maybe the long layoff was a factor in our performance this past weekend, and as much as a tough non-conference opponent that week could help, I also doubt we could find such an opponent during that week. The WCC plays their tournament the week prior to the major conferences, so most quality opponents are busy with conference tournaments that week.

MJ777
03-24-2013, 07:16 PM
Maybe the long layoff was a factor in our performance this past weekend, and as much as a tough non-conference opponent that week could help, I also doubt we could find such an opponent during that week. The WCC plays their tournament the week prior to the major conferences, so most quality opponents are busy with conference tournaments that week.

I was thinking more like a couple of weeks before tourneys begin, but then the big boys are busy beating each other up so probably wouldn't have time for a non conference tilt. Maybe we can team up with Memphis again, but Zags need to play Away every year.

bigblahla
03-24-2013, 07:18 PM
It's not about the WCC it's about Gonzaga.

We are an enigma, an unusual oddity in the corner of Northeast Washington.

We have so over achieved and the realization hit me right between the eyes it may never get better than what we just witnessed a truly incredible year with a sad ending.

All of you who demand more pick another team for you will never ever be happy with the Gonzaga Bulldogs and frankly I'm tired of your rantings about our coach, our players and our program.

You are not fans of the Zags you are fans of the team you want them to be.

I can be happy winning the conference title, having a chance to win the conference tournament and if we're lucky enough get into the Dance and see how far we can go.

Every year ends with a loss which is common to every team in D1 save one.

As someone who initially thought the new BE was a possible haven I know it would never work on many levels with the most important being Gonzaga fits the WCC and the WCC fits Gonzaga.

We will have our hands full next season in conference.

This was a magical season let's not cheapen it with message board madness.

Understanding who we are makes it easy to face the end of each season.

If you really want to make changes lobby for the removal of our lame commissioner.

Why do our brethren play in front of no one at most home games and what has he done to change it? If he truly wanted to create a better a conference he would do whatever is necessary to help put butts in the seats at every WCC game conference wide. It isn't going to happen he's just waiting for the next job opportunity to come along.

Just my opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

ZagLawGrad
03-24-2013, 07:32 PM
Does anyone know what the position is of the University on a conference change if an good opportunity comes up?

I seem to recall there was some suggestion when the Catholic 7 issue first came up that the Zags were going that direction?

I appreciate BBB's position, but my view is that the Zags will have to up the competition level in conference to get over the hump they are stuck on in the Dance. Of course, if getting over the hump is not important or a priority, then no reason to debate the prospects of a change.

Oregonzagnut
03-24-2013, 07:34 PM
We either need to start conference play 4-5 days later or have each team plan for a bye week during the 2nd half of the conference so we can push our WCC tournament to end on the Saturday before selection Sunday.

The Atlantic Sun conference is not hurting Florida Gulf Coast. It is what you do with what you have in March. Do you elevate your game and mental and emotional focus or do you stagnate?

Ezag
03-24-2013, 07:36 PM
It IS about the WCC....we have simply out grown it and whether we have another conference to go to or not, the fact is we are way too good for the WCC as a whole. Our ratings are better, our players are better, we spent at least 2x as much as the next best WCC program (5x over the bottom teams) and we do carry the conference for the most part.

TexasZag
03-24-2013, 08:07 PM
We probably can't compete with the major conferences for TV time going in to Selection Sunday, which is probably why we have our conference tourney when we do. Just a guess.

surfmonkey89
03-24-2013, 08:39 PM
I would put making the tourney a week later a higher priority than changing conferences. It might be easier logistically, and would go a long way toward having us be sharp(er) heading into the dance.

Sitting around for week and a half off between games while everyone else is competing on a super high level is doing us no favors. And it would also benefit anyone else in the conference who might get into the ncaa tourney.

Zag 77
03-24-2013, 10:03 PM
Discussion already in WCC section:

http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?p=900756#post900756

cjm720
03-25-2013, 06:13 AM
Will joining the MWC help us defend the three?

+1

TexasZag
03-25-2013, 06:23 AM
Will joining the MWC help us defend the three?

If it helps us attract more athletic talent then most likely, yes. Of course, with the understanding that there are really only two absolutes; taxes and death.

cbbfanatic
03-25-2013, 07:47 AM
It's not about the WCC it's about Gonzaga.

We are an enigma, an unusual oddity in the corner of Northeast Washington.

We have so over achieved and the realization hit me right between the eyes it may never get better than what we just witnessed a truly incredible year with a sad ending.

All of you who demand more pick another team for you will never ever be happy with the Gonzaga Bulldogs and frankly I'm tired of your rantings about our coach, our players and our program.

You are not fans of the Zags you are fans of the team you want them to be.

I can be happy winning the conference title, having a chance to win the conference tournament and if we're lucky enough get into the Dance and see how far we can go.

Every year ends with a loss which is common to every team in D1 save one.

As someone who initially thought the new BE was a possible haven I know it would never work on many levels with the most important being Gonzaga fits the WCC and the WCC fits Gonzaga.

We will have our hands full next season in conference.

This was a magical season let's not cheapen it with message board madness.

Understanding who we are makes it easy to face the end of each season.

If you really want to make changes lobby for the removal of our lame commissioner.

Why do our brethren play in front of no one at most home games and what has he done to change it? If he truly wanted to create a better a conference he would do whatever is necessary to help put butts in the seats at every WCC game conference wide. It isn't going to happen he's just waiting for the next job opportunity to come along.

Just my opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

excellent post. agree with basically every word.

i also agree with ezzag's sentiments a few responses later - and would more or less combine those ideas to get to my stance on it.

as long as GU is in the WCC as constituted, it is probably in everyone's best interests to really "know who you are." fact is though, that "who GU is" is still way above the rest of the conference, so if there is a workable way to move up, its worth exploring.

as for the partial membership idea... i dont think anyone would buy into that. GU isnt THAT big of a fish to be able to opt out of half of the schedule and keep ALL the perks that go with conference affiliation. Notre Dame, they are not.

i also dont see how adding a bball only school to a conference that has one fball only member really creates a valuable balance for the MWC. it just creates one more potentially inconvenient imbalance, so that both football and basketball have that weird kid that doesnt really belong, isnt fully bought in. i dont get that one. also, just not a good institutional fit for gu there.

clearly, the new big east would be the best institutional fit for gonzaga if it was geographically workable. i think for mens (maybe even womens) basketball only, it could work (and it really would be awesome, one the court, long flights excluded). the issues would come with the olympic sports, and what to do with them. its never this simple, but i would bet some form of GU funneling some of their increased TV money to the wcc to let their other sports play there might do it.

otherwise, from a wcc perspective, they NEED TO ADD Seattle U tomorrow. forget about the "rpi hit" piece for a second, because thats completely short-sighted in this conference realignment game. seattle U plays in an NBA arena in a top 15 market that actually likes basketball (and isnt overly enamored with UW bball - the casual bb fans anyway). and that arena is about to get a significant makeover thanks to Chris Hansen. TONS of upside there - i defy you to find a school with a better fit and upside than them. and with BYU's membership seeming to be temporary, Seattle U would be the second best "property" in the league the day they joined (second to GU of course, GU has a legit national name). they'd also give gu a real (eventual) rival. to me, this is "no brainer" territory

Tetonka Test
03-25-2013, 09:47 AM
We've outgrown the WCC---the "big fish" small pond thing has gotten old already, and isn't helping our program grow further.

Time to get to a more competitive league, which will help our program. The MWC has a spot open (because of Hawaii being in the Big West for basketball / Olympic sports), so we should jump at the opportunity while the chance is there. We should add Basketball and all other sports to the MWC.

If we are honest, is there really any other team besides BYU in the WCC that can challenge Gonzaga going forward (not Saint Mary's...they will revert back now that they got caught cheating). A 2-team league is boring, and doesn't help.

In contrast, in the MWC, we will be challenged by UNLV, New Mexico, Boise State, Colorado State, and San Diego State every night. These schools have large fanbases that attend the games too.

Also, if we jump to the MWC, I think BYU follows us back there. I guess the MWC just signed a large ESPN deal and CBS deal too...

cbbfanatic
03-25-2013, 10:05 AM
Also, if we jump to the MWC, I think BYU follows us back there. I guess the MWC just signed a large ESPN deal and CBS deal too...

much of which is based on football inventory.

one of the primary reasons the big east fell apart is because of the financial disconnect between football and basketball schools - you dont want to jump into that, its not a sustainable model - especially if you're the only school on that end of the deal.

Zageist
03-25-2013, 10:19 AM
Stay put. We gotta make WCC better. Recruit better teams or make the ones there better.

Birddog
03-25-2013, 10:24 AM
We've outgrown the WCC---the "big fish" small pond thing has gotten old already, and isn't helping our program grow further.

Time to get to a more competitive league, which will help our program. The MWC has a spot open (because of Hawaii being in the Big West for basketball / Olympic sports), so we should jump at the opportunity while the chance is there. We should add Basketball and all other sports to the MWC.

If we are honest, is there really any other team besides BYU in the WCC that can challenge Gonzaga going forward (not Saint Mary's...they will revert back now that they got caught cheating). A 2-team league is boring, and doesn't help.

In contrast, in the MWC, we will be challenged by UNLV, New Mexico, Boise State, Colorado State, and San Diego State every night. These schools have large fanbases that attend the games too.

Also, if we jump to the MWC, I think BYU follows us back there. I guess the MWC just signed a large ESPN deal and CBS deal too...

I assume since you made all of the above assumptions, that you have done a cost benefit analysis of such a move esp with regard to the "olympic sports". I also assume that you have some info into how well received a private Catholic University will be in a league of secular State Institutions. Does Gonzaga share an educational and student development mission with these schools? Will Gonzaga's athletic dept budget be on a par with these schools (not counting FB of course)? Will the tailgating in Laramie be on a par with that in Santa Clara? Have you charted the travel partner possibilities?

I'm sure others have questions too, but if you could elaborate on the highlighted ones it would be helpful in seeing the benefits of such a move. To be fair, you're not the first to throw out the prospects of such a move, just the most recent, but details would be helpful. Maybe send some of your research on to Roth too, I'm sure he would welcome outside input.

ZagSports
03-25-2013, 10:26 AM
The problem is with all the other conference alignment and schools joining this conference and schools joining that conference, that all of these other conferences are getting better, while we are staying put.

Let's be honest here, the ESPN contracts and the money will still come our way. We will have a chance at recruiting more players (Yes Gonzaga gets good players, but there are athletes out there who would choose a school like UW over Gonzaga solely because of conference).

Gonzaga basketball will not drop off the earth anytime here in the near future, however college sports is changing as a whole, and some of you need to realize that and adapt to the changes that are being made, and push for GU to make some of there own as well.

Ezag
03-25-2013, 10:31 AM
Stay put. We gotta make WCC better. Recruit better teams or make the ones there better.

In 15 years the WCC has gone up from the 13th best conference to the 10th mainly because of the improvement of St Mary's and the addition of BYU. Thats pretty much it.

1999 WCC Ranked 13
2003 WCC Ranked 12
2010 WCC Ranked 13
2011 WCC Ranked 11
2013 WCC Ranked 10

ZagLawGrad
03-25-2013, 10:36 AM
Stay put. We gotta make WCC better. Recruit better teams or make the ones there better.

Not happening anytime soon. USF, LMU and Pepperdine have long journeys ahead to get to a high level anywhere near the Zags.

No one else of quality will want to join the WCC.

Let's make a strong move. Now.

ZAGGED OUT
03-25-2013, 11:46 AM
We don't owe anything to this conference so I don't see how we need to stay and make it better, or recruit better teams. Sometimes, you just gotta look out for numero uno and GU better do that ASAP if they want their basketball program to keep progressing. I hope they've already started over their recruiting list for 2014 and later cause right now all those 4 stars that were considering us just crossed us off the list. Permanent mid major if we don't change conferences.

Tetonka Test
03-25-2013, 11:49 AM
I assume since you made all of the above assumptions, that you have done a cost benefit analysis of such a move esp with regard to the "olympic sports". I also assume that you have some info into how well received a private Catholic University will be in a league of secular State Institutions. Does Gonzaga share an educational and student development mission with these schools? Will Gonzaga's athletic dept budget be on a par with these schools (not counting FB of course)? Will the tailgating in Laramie be on a par with that in Santa Clara? Have you charted the travel partner possibilities?

I'm sure others have questions too, but if you could elaborate on the highlighted ones it would be helpful in seeing the benefits of such a move. To be fair, you're not the first to throw out the prospects of such a move, just the most recent, but details would be helpful. Maybe send some of your research on to Roth too, I'm sure he would welcome outside input.

(1) Educational Mission of the school, and the fact that Gonzaga is a Catholic school is irrelevant. This is an ATHLETIC conference. People that are scared about adding a private, religious school to a non-private conference need to get over their irrational fear. The Atlantic 10 Conference has proven that such a marriage can be very successful. The Atlantic 10 Conference has a lot of Catholic schools grouped with state schools.

(2) Cost Benefit Analysis of the Olympic Sports? I don't have the hard numbers, and neither do you. But, it is not beyond reason to say that it would be a wash between the two conferences. Regional travel for both schools isn't bad, and there are probably travel partners in the MWC (just like there are in the WCC). MWC probably gets more NCAA tournament credit dollars, and could offer Gonzaga the right to do their own TV deal (they did this for part member Hawaii).

(3) Tailgating Laramie vs Santa Clara? Are you joking? Tailgating is a football thing, not so much a basketball thing. But if you are focused on tailgating (i.e., appeal of the destination city), then the WCC has the MWC beat. But who cares? It is an athletic conference. The MWC has some fun cities to travel to too. You are pushing an agenda in that you named the absolute bottom of the MWC (Wyoming). Why did you not mention Las Vegas, for example?

The benefit is obvious:

The WCC sucks, and isn't likely to improve much from what it is going forward. It will be Gonzaga and BYU (that's it). I've wished far too long that San Francisco and LMU would emerge---they never do.

The MWC isn't the best alternative, but it is the only realistic alternative. The fact is that the MWC only has 11 basketball / olympic schools. They are unbalanced. If Gonzaga started calling, they would likely very seriously listen.

We have no other options. It is either stay put in the WCC (with schools who aren't financially committed to competing) or move on.

ZagLawGrad
03-25-2013, 12:14 PM
Muntain West RPI looked pretty good this season.

Why wouldn't they want the Zags?

cbbfanatic
03-25-2013, 12:28 PM
Muntain West RPI looked pretty good this season.

Why wouldn't they want the Zags?

because it is about a LOT MORE than basketball, or the rpi.

its a difficult proposition to meld in a bb only school into a football conference. the football inventory is what drives the tv deal and basically everything else. gonzaga doesnt offer football, and therefore doesnt offer any market in that sport. how would their tv payout be calculated? what happens if they want to expand to a nice even # of football & all sports schools and they have that little gonzaga outlier sitting there? hawaii is given as an example of partial membership (though its hard to directly compare given the difference in sports), but do we know how committed each side is to that arrangment?

i think you guys are seriously underestimating this aspect, or overvaluing what gonzaga might bring from a basketball standpoint. remember, Syracuse & Uconn were begging to get into the Big 10 for years... and the big ten decided they wanted Rutgers. that tells you what on-the-hardwood performance means to some of these decision makers.

Bocco
03-25-2013, 12:28 PM
Muntain West RPI looked pretty good this season.

Why wouldn't they want the Zags?

Yes their RPI was great, and every MWC school was bounced from the tournament in the first or second round. So none of their teams did any better than the Zags. I don't see any advantage in looking towards that conference.

ZagLawGrad
03-25-2013, 12:36 PM
Yes their RPI was great, and every MWC school was bounced from the tournament in the first or second round. So none of their teams did any better than the Zags. I don't see any advantage in looking towards that conference.

MWC had 5 teams in the Dance. WCC had two, with SMC getting in only by play-in.

I think it's pretty clear that the MWC has more horsepower, and potential upside.

zagco
03-25-2013, 12:41 PM
The MWC was high this year because they had a lot of upperclassmen. Leadership. No elite teams, but several above average teams. The MWC would provide Gonzaga much tougher week-in and week-out conference play, and even in a down year, the best couple teams will provide Gonzaga with just as big of a challenge as Saint Mary's. For whatever little it might be worth, you would also get used to playing in large arenas. That could be a bit of a bonus if depth perception on shooting counts for anything.

Not sure what Gonzaga's budget would look like compared to the others if you could figure out a way to discount everything associated with football. But, it sure seems like Gonzaga's facilties are more than good enough, not to mention coaching salaries (or what we assume, since it is private information).

Zagco hears this kind of talk just casually amongst fans in the Boise area, but he's never heard anything at all that would even qualify as a rumor coming out of MWC offices. He figures the MWC might be waiting around to see what happens with the last two remaining decent members of the old Big East in football, because they might want to swoop in and take a couple Texas schools or something from that train wreck.

cbbfanatic
03-25-2013, 12:45 PM
MWC had 5 teams in the Dance. WCC had two, with SMC getting in only by play-in.

I think it's pretty clear that the MWC has more horsepower, and potential upside.

of course it does.

doesn't make it a viable option for GU. there's that whole "football" thing that everyone seems to dismiss when talking about the MWC

neither is incredibly likely, but i'd say a more likely scenario would be GU polishing up the jet, joining the new big east for men's bball only, and throwing the WCC a piece of their significantly increased TV $ to allow their other sports to stay put. its about as likely as a football conference adding a basketball-only school in a small market.

does GU want to join a conference where their primary (only) concern is back-burnered by the conference brass? do they want a significantly reduced seat at the table? do they want to be the only second class citizen in their conference?

at least during the big east debacle, the second class citizens of gtown, nova, marquette, etc had each other.

mountain west, on the surface, sounds like a good idea - i really doubt it would be, for gonzaga anyway. on field/court stuff isnt always (or even often) the primary concern in this new wave of realignment.

Zag 77
03-25-2013, 01:32 PM
Not going to happen

Here is why. WCC would be highly unlikely to let us stay in the league for the sports other than basketball. GU is not going to join the Big East or MWAC for basketball only and leave the baseball, mens soccer, womens soccer, volleyball, tennis, golf, cross-country and rowing teams to be orphans.

Before you think about dropping all of those sports, remember that in order to have Division I NCAA eligibility a school needs a minimum of about a dozen Division 1 sports teams.

:horse:

ZagLawGrad
03-25-2013, 01:36 PM
In 15 years the WCC has gone up from the 13th best conference to the 10th mainly because of the improvement of St Mary's and the addition of BYU. Thats pretty much it.

1999 WCC Ranked 13
2003 WCC Ranked 12
2010 WCC Ranked 13
2011 WCC Ranked 11
2013 WCC Ranked 10

And SMC and BYU went backwards this season. And I didn't see much to convince me either will move forward next season.

Mr Vulture
03-25-2013, 01:53 PM
I think the best "fit" in terms of similar mission and direction would be the new Big East. However, the travel would be ridiculous which really makes it a non starter. The MWC is a fit in location, a step up in overall competition, but is all schools with football at this point. I am not sure they would accept a member that didn't offer football although Gonzaga does offer a lot in regards to basketball.

In the end, I think we better just be happy with accepting our conference affiliation.

vandalzag
03-25-2013, 02:18 PM
Not going to change conferences, the other schools would never allow partial membership in the WCC, they already have a big enough issue with Gonzaga being the favored school, but they put up with it due to the cash. GU does not have the funds to participate in the MWC in other sports. So that would leave the Big Sky for non Basketball sports, with no option for baseball.
The sad thing is that the other schools will commit to building their own programs, improving facilities, scheduling aggressively, etc... Every school seems to put a 3 yr burst and then fades away. Hopefully St. Mary's helps, but losing Delly and the penalties are going to make it very difficult. BYU will be OK, maybe USD takes the next step, but most likely it is a 2 or 3 team league.

MDABE80
03-25-2013, 03:43 PM
We're not self centered. BUT I don't see what GU can do to improved the WCC......I'm think we would if there was a road map.
WCC is a solid conference with BYU us and St Maries.
SOmething else is afoot when a conference like ours can put 3 of 8( when we had 8 teams) in the tournament but is continually marginized by the media and the sports "geniuses".

I've thought it was the BCS places but now, I'm not sure that the writers and media simply will talk upo the big schools and talk down the smaller schools......unless there is big big story afoot .....soethink like us or Butler years ago or the presnet no 15 from Florida Gulf Coast.
Always people can poke holes in the writers' stories but they keep it up. I hope the new Big East resets things for schools like ours. We'll see though.

U Zig, I Zag
03-25-2013, 03:47 PM
And SMC and BYU went backwards this season. And I didn't see much to convince me either will move forward next season.

SMC is in trouble, I will admit. But BYU has some good recruits coming in from what I have seen. Of course, BYU would be the first school to jump ship if given the opportunity.

NJZag
03-25-2013, 05:49 PM
History and my bracket are demonstrative proof that your conference is not the deal breaker...

FGCU, America's Team...at least for a week.

Amen, Bart. Interesting to see the chatter over on the Hoyas mb as alums/fans debate whether JT III -- a coach who already has taken that team to a Final Four -- has a glass ceiling or an inability to coach for the NCAAT or needs to ramp up his basketball IQ learning curve and blah blah blah.

If the rough and tumble of the Big East didn't prepare Pitt for the shock of the Shockers, how exactly would a different conference have better prepared Gonzaga?

If the rough and tumble of the Big East, and taking a share of the Big East regular season title after two wins over Syracuse and a win over top #1 seed Louisville didn't prepare the #2 seeded Hoyas for the stunning upset by Some-Directional-College-In-Ft.Myers-Florida-That-Didn't-Even-Exist-Until-1997 (http://scores.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=330830021) which is now the first #15 seed to reach the Sweet 16 in NCAA history, how exactly is the Big East going to better prepare Gonzaga?

On all the MWC or "some other" conference chatter, it's a pretty safe bet that Gonzaga's AD is not going to join anything that can't embrace all sports. Probably a pretty sure thing, too, that the WCC wouldn't want to keep us for all other sports if men's hoops were to be excluded. We haven't exactly won NCAA titles in soccer like SCU and UP have. This Wiki link is instructive; scroll down to the section where it lists the MWC sports. Readers will find a bunch of checkmarks and X's to indicate which MWC schools offer what sports, and further checkerboards showing which MWC schools have needed to become affiliate members of the PAC-12 or elsewhere to find homes for some of their sports that MWC can't house.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_West_Conference

Just remember that when you're a football school and you're giving out 80+ schollies to males, then Title IX can make it hard to support some other men's sports until you can demonstrate gender parity in athletic sports offerings and scholarships for women. It's the reason why University of Oregon didn't offer D-1 men's baseball for nearly 20 years. Money wasn't the issue. Finding and offering enough women's sports that would attract scholarship-supported female student-athlete participation and thereby bring a gender balance to $$$ distribution was the reason.

As far as hybrid conferences with members that are "only this" or "not that" for participation ... have we learned absolutely NOTHING from our own history in the Big Sky as well as the experience of like-kind colleges in the Big East? If "we" know our roots, and if "we" learn from the experiences of other institutions which drifted into a lot of unhappiness when they left their roots, then "we" will be the better for it.

Gonzaga Conference Membership History 101: Although Gonzaga and U of Idaho were the two charter members of the Big Sky Conference in 1963, as it went on to add ISU, Montana, Montana State and Weber State as original members and other public institutions in the years following, considerations of geography in an era of teams traveling by bus (or train) had been the driver for that conference's founding. Ask "Reborn" how he traveled to most games when he played for GU. By 1979, Gonzaga found it wasn't a great fit to be the lone "non-football" and private school in a league of fb-centric public institutions. And the Big Sky's addition of Northern Arizona found us hopping planes anyway. So in 1979, there was a swap-out which found Nevada leave the WCC and join the Big Sky, while Gonzaga left the Big Sky and joined the WCC. Nevada had previously housed its fb program in the old NCAC or as a D-2 independent because the WCC's regular membership presented a mixed bag as far as fb. (E.g., SCU had offered fb as a D-2 sport until 1992, when the NCAA ruled that a school must compete across-the-board in D-I in all its sports by upgrading any non-conforming program, or drop down to go D-2 in all sports.)

Big East 101: Most of its founding members are now finally getting their divorce from the football schools and Notre Dame will take its "only sports not named football" insistence to the ACC (but with a requirement that its indie schedule must include at least 5 games with ACC members and with a stipulated share of 50% of its TV revenue from those games being paid into the ACC member schools accordingly).
http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/Big-East-FOX-Sports-reach-extensive-multi-platform-media-rights-agreement-032013

The Big East -- before it went down the path of the football schools "expansion" era starting in 1991 in order to gain a seat at the BCS' formation -- was a doppelganger and highly successful younger version on the opposite coast of the WCC as far as institutional profile and fit, with UConn the only public school. Providence, St. John's, Georgetown, and Syracuse (a private Methodist-affiliated school at its origins) started the ball rolling in 1979. The Carrier Dome hadn't even been built yet. They invited Seton Hall, Connecticut, Holy Cross, Rutgers (public), and Boston College to join. Rutgers and Holy Cross declined. Rutgers only joined 12 years later, when the league veered into the expansion with fb schools in order to get itself seated at the BCS table.

UConn turned out to be a wonderful invitee -- they'd been approached in 1978 by a trio of entrepreneurs headed by an ex-Hartford Whalers employee named Bill Rasmussen who planned to offer Huskies sports on a Connecticut-oriented sports cable venture that would also cover the Hartford Whalers etc. That venture morphed into ESPN, it launched in 1979, the same year that the Big East was formed, and the two literally grew up together and fed off each other's successes.

There's commentary in this thread about shifting the WCC tourney to a later weekend. For at least a decade since this article was written (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/hiestand/2003-03-09-hiestand_x.htm), television rights deals have dictated the dates of the conference tournaments. Champion week on ESPN leading up to Selection Sunday culminates with coverage of the tourneys of the "bigs": ACC, Big 12, Big East, Big Ten, MWC (which moves into the Orleans facilities right after the WCC has vacated them in Vegas), Pac-12, SEC.

I'm quite sure that the tv rights deal for the Big East Tournament has historically dictated to that conference the day and time of its Finals game, not the other way around, and going all the way back into the 1980's. A conference is always free to do what it wants to do in setting its schedule; but giving up tv rights revenues and exposure for its schools and athletes is probably not what most conference commissioners view as a choice.

Maybe the entrance of Fox into the dedicated sports cable channels now striking a deal with the C7/New Big East will introduce some more competition to the matter of tv rights bidding in the future, and allow more leeway for conferences to determine their tourney weekends without needing to give up $$$ to do so.

The Big East will be at 10 members for its first year. It's rumored to be looking to add 2 more but planning to be picky about "fit" -- geography, similarity of institutions as far as size and organization (private), etc. will all probably matter. It would seem to have been a no-brainer to invite VCU to join, based on that school's recent hoops history and location.

So why didn't the C7 extend an invitation to VCU? Many speculate that it's because VCU is a public university and, as such, a lot of conference inner-workings could have gotten exposed by any reporter filing a public documents request. It's happened in the past with the mixed-mode public/private membership format of the Big East.

The C7 presidents guiding the new league seem to be taking every past lesson and applying what it taught them to the future. Good for them.

If 12 is a target membership number for a league of similar institutions on the East Coast, should 12 be a target number for the WCC? And which schools?

Birddog
03-25-2013, 06:52 PM
Way to go NJ, you didn't just rain on the parade, you pissed all over it. The boatload of dim witted thinkers most of whom seemed to be hungover from the loss in SLC is like one of those cruise ships from hell, adrift in a sea of half baked logic fueled by emotional loss. Your erudite post is as refreshing as a tropical isle in an otherwise awful sea of bathos.

Come on people, wake up! Every team that represented either a quality win or quality loss is also out of the tournament. The pundits were probably right, this team was not really as good as they appeared to be on paper. To be sure, they were very good, just not as good as we expected or hoped them to be. They had a helluva season, so did I. A new conference, a new tournament date, a new coach or coaches; do you really think it is as simple as that? This program is still on the rise and like a wise man said, "It is to be continued".

Another smart guy said "and Bob's your uncle".

Oregonzagnut
03-25-2013, 07:10 PM
My understanding of NJZag: It is very difficult for Gonzaga to leave the WCC conference and at this point after so much success for Gonzaga in the WCC, it also makes little sense.

IMO, Gonzaga has succeeded in the WCC and we can continue to do so.

ZagFanInNC
03-26-2013, 12:07 AM
Not going to change conferences, the other schools would never allow partial membership in the WCC, they already have a big enough issue with Gonzaga being the favored school, but they put up with it due to the cash.

I thoroughly disagree with this... the other schools can say what they want but if GU tells the conference to jump they WILL say how high. That's not even a question IMO.

WallaWallaZag
03-26-2013, 01:43 AM
for all the angst about the weakness of the wcc...both byu and santa clara posted impressive 2nd round victories in the nit and cbi respectively with santa clara winning on purdue's home court. sure, being in the wcc probably does more to hurt the zags chances in march than it does to help, but i would say it's certainly not one of the top 5 reasons the zags looked bad against both southern and wichita state.

ZagaZags
03-26-2013, 02:31 AM
Then we are never going past the first weekend. This conference is pathetic.

And last I checked nobody from the mighty MWC is in the sweet 16. Do I think Gonzaga will make the sweet 16 again? Not really. But maybe in the next 10 years they can. Do I think they will make March Madness for 6 more years? Yes. Do I think the WCC will get better? No. ( BYU will be king next year )
Sweet 16 and round of 32 is our cap. Elite 8 in 1999 was our cap.
But I still love my Zags.

Birddog
03-26-2013, 04:16 AM
I thoroughly disagree with this... the other schools can say what they want but if GU tells the conference to jump they WILL say how high. That's not even a question IMO.
And this notion is based on what? I have to think you are seriously delusional unless you can point to something solid that gives sunstance to your hypothesis.

TexasZagFan
03-26-2013, 06:27 AM
Way to go NJ, you didn't just rain on the parade, you pissed all over it. The boatload of dim witted thinkers most of whom seemed to be hungover from the loss in SLC is like one of those cruise ships from hell, adrift in a sea of half baked logic fueled by emotional loss. Your erudite post is as refreshing as a tropical isle in an otherwise awful sea of bathos.

Come on people, wake up! Every team that represented either a quality win or quality loss is also out of the tournament. The pundits were probably right, this team was not really as good as they appeared to be on paper. To be sure, they were very good, just not as good as we expected or hoped them to be. They had a helluva season, so did I. A new conference, a new tournament date, a new coach or coaches; do you really think it is as simple as that? This program is still on the rise and like a wise man said, "It is to be continued".

Another smart guy said "and Bob's your uncle".

Scatter shot observations:

Is Georgetown ready to fire JT Jr? Their record in the Dance over the past 5 years is pathetic.

The coach of the team that lost to Wichita in the first round received a 10 year extension...:confused: Explain that one to me.

The loss to Wichita State will hurt for another month, but for the most point I've moved on. We had a GREAT season, just finished a bit short to a good team.

This last game doesn't define our season...we climbed another mountain, but we still need to scale the next summit.

I'll be there in Wichita when we play KSU. If I had the money, I'd take a week off and go to Maui. OTOH, can someone give me a cost estimate of a week in Maui? The way the market's going, my 401k could take the hit.

Lastly, leaving the WCC is such a nonstarter. Outside of basketball, what does Gonzaga contribute?

Angelo Roncalli
03-26-2013, 06:27 AM
I thoroughly disagree with this... the other schools can say what they want but if GU tells the conference to jump they WILL say how high. That's not even a question IMO.

You really have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Your opinion is nothing but baseless conjecture.

TexasZagFan
03-26-2013, 06:31 AM
I thoroughly disagree with this... the other schools can say what they want but if GU tells the conference to jump they WILL say how high. That's not even a question IMO.

:lmao: You're a funny guy.

The rest of the WCC takes the money we make for them from the NCAA Tournament, patting us on the head without a thank you. Remember how long it took for the WCC tournament to make it to the Pac NW, after all those years in San Diego?

If GU tells the WCC to jump, their reply will be "do the letters K-M-A mean anything to you?"

GoZags
03-26-2013, 06:40 AM
Post of the Year from NJZag and "Co" Responses of the Year from BD and TZF. (My opinion).


Yesterday, 06:49 PM
NJZag
Super Moderator

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Between Swamp & Pine Barrens
Posts: 2,462

Quote:
Originally Posted by bartruff1
History and my bracket are demonstrative proof that your conference is not the deal breaker...

FGCU, America's Team...at least for a week.
Amen, Bart. Interesting to see the chatter over on the Hoyas mb as alums/fans debate whether JT III -- a coach who already has taken that team to a Final Four -- has a glass ceiling or an inability to coach for the NCAAT or needs to ramp up his basketball IQ learning curve and blah blah blah.

If the rough and tumble of the Big East didn't prepare Pitt for the shock of the Shockers, how exactly would a different conference have better prepared Gonzaga?

If the rough and tumble of the Big East, and taking a share of the Big East regular season title after two wins over Syracuse and a win over top #1 seed Louisville didn't prepare the #2 seeded Hoyas for the stunning upset by Some-Directional-College-In-Ft.Myers-Florida-That-Didn't-Even-Exist-Until-1997 which is now the first #15 seed to reach the Sweet 16 in NCAA history, how exactly is the Big East going to better prepare Gonzaga?

On all the MWC or "some other" conference chatter, it's a pretty safe bet that Gonzaga's AD is not going to join anything that can't embrace all sports. Probably a pretty sure thing, too, that the WCC wouldn't want to keep us for all other sports if men's hoops were to be excluded. We haven't exactly won NCAA titles in soccer like SCU and UP have. This Wiki link is instructive; scroll down to the section where it lists the MWC sports. Readers will find a bunch of checkmarks and X's to indicate which MWC schools offer what sports, and further checkerboards showing which MWC schools have needed to become affiliate members of the PAC-12 or elsewhere to find homes for some of their sports that MWC can't house.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_West_Conference

Just remember that when you're a football school and you're giving out 80+ schollies to males, then Title IX can make it hard to support some other men's sports until you can demonstrate gender parity in athletic sports offerings and scholarships for women. It's the reason why University of Oregon didn't offer D-1 men's baseball for nearly 20 years. Money wasn't the issue. Finding and offering enough women's sports that would attract scholarship-supported female student-athlete participation and thereby bring a gender balance to $$$ distribution was the reason.

As far as hybrid conferences with members that are "only this" or "not that" for participation ... have we learned absolutely NOTHING from our own history in the Big Sky as well as the experience of like-kind colleges in the Big East? If "we" know our roots, and if "we" learn from the experiences of other institutions which drifted into a lot of unhappiness when they left their roots, then "we" will be the better for it.

Gonzaga Conference Membership History 101: Although Gonzaga and U of Idaho were the two charter members of the Big Sky Conference in 1963, as it went on to add ISU, Montana, Montana State and Weber State as original members and other public institutions in the years following, considerations of geography in an era of teams traveling by bus (or train) had been the driver for that conference's founding. Ask "Reborn" how he traveled to most games when he played for GU. By 1979, Gonzaga found it wasn't a great fit to be the lone "non-football" and private school in a league of fb-centric public institutions. And the Big Sky's addition of Northern Arizona found us hopping planes anyway. So in 1979, there was a swap-out which found Nevada leave the WCC and join the Big Sky, while Gonzaga left the Big Sky and joined the WCC. Nevada had previously housed its fb program in the old NCAC or as a D-2 independent because the WCC's regular membership presented a mixed bag as far as fb. (E.g., SCU had offered fb as a D-2 sport until 1992, when the NCAA ruled that a school must compete across-the-board in D-I in all its sports by upgrading any non-conforming program, or drop down to go D-2 in all sports.)

Big East 101: Most of its founding members are now finally getting their divorce from the football schools and Notre Dame will take its "only sports not named football" insistence to the ACC (but with a requirement that its indie schedule must include at least 5 games with ACC members and with a stipulated share of 50% of its TV revenue from those games being paid into the ACC member schools accordingly).
http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebask...reement-032013

The Big East -- before it went down the path of the football schools "expansion" era starting in 1991 in order to gain a seat at the BCS' formation -- was a doppelganger and highly successful younger version on the opposite coast of the WCC as far as institutional profile and fit, with UConn the only public school. Providence, St. John's, Georgetown, and Syracuse (a private Methodist-affiliated school at its origins) started the ball rolling in 1979. The Carrier Dome hadn't even been built yet. They invited Seton Hall, Connecticut, Holy Cross, Rutgers (public), and Boston College to join. Rutgers and Holy Cross declined. Rutgers only joined 12 years later, when the league veered into the expansion with fb schools in order to get itself seated at the BCS table.

UConn turned out to be a wonderful invitee -- they'd been approached in 1978 by a trio of entrepreneurs headed by an ex-Hartford Whalers employee named Bill Rasmussen who planned to offer Huskies sports on a Connecticut-oriented sports cable venture that would also cover the Hartford Whalers etc. That venture morphed into ESPN, it launched in 1979, the same year that the Big East was formed, and the two literally grew up together and fed off each other's successes.

There's commentary in this thread about shifting the WCC tourney to a later weekend. For at least a decade since this article was written, television rights deals have dictated the dates of the conference tournaments. Champion week on ESPN leading up to Selection Sunday culminates with coverage of the tourneys of the "bigs": ACC, Big 12, Big East, Big Ten, MWC (which moves into the Orleans facilities right after the WCC has vacated them in Vegas), Pac-12, SEC.

I'm quite sure that the tv rights deal for the Big East Tournament has historically dictated to that conference the day and time of its Finals game, not the other way around, and going all the way back into the 1980's. A conference is always free to do what it wants to do in setting its schedule; but giving up tv rights revenues and exposure for its schools and athletes is probably not what most conference commissioners view as a choice.

Maybe the entrance of Fox into the dedicated sports cable channels now striking a deal with the C7/New Big East will introduce some more competition to the matter of tv rights bidding in the future, and allow more leeway for conferences to determine their tourney weekends without needing to give up $$$ to do so.

The Big East will be at 10 members for its first year. It's rumored to be looking to add 2 more but planning to be picky about "fit" -- geography, similarity of institutions as far as size and organization (private), etc. will all probably matter. It would seem to have been a no-brainer to invite VCU to join, based on that school's recent hoops history and location.

So why didn't the C7 extend an invitation to VCU? Many speculate that it's because VCU is a public university and, as such, a lot of conference inner-workings could have gotten exposed by any reporter filing a public documents request. It's happened in the past with the mixed-mode public/private membership format of the Big East.

The C7 presidents guiding the new league seem to be taking every past lesson and applying what it taught them to the future. Good for them.

If 12 is a target membership number for a league of similar institutions on the East Coast, should 12 be a target number for the WCC? And which schools?
--------
Today, 07:27 AM

TexasZagFan
Zag for Life

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Irving, TX
Posts: 5,714

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birddog
Way to go NJ, you didn't just rain on the parade, you pissed all over it. The boatload of dim witted thinkers most of whom seemed to be hungover from the loss in SLC is like one of those cruise ships from hell, adrift in a sea of half baked logic fueled by emotional loss. Your erudite post is as refreshing as a tropical isle in an otherwise awful sea of bathos.

Come on people, wake up! Every team that represented either a quality win or quality loss is also out of the tournament. The pundits were probably right, this team was not really as good as they appeared to be on paper. To be sure, they were very good, just not as good as we expected or hoped them to be. They had a helluva season, so did I. A new conference, a new tournament date, a new coach or coaches; do you really think it is as simple as that? This program is still on the rise and like a wise man said, "It is to be continued".

Another smart guy said "and Bob's your uncle".
Scatter shot observations:

Is Georgetown ready to fire JT Jr? Their record in the Dance over the past 5 years is pathetic.

The coach of the team that lost to Wichita in the first round received a 10 year extension... Explain that one to me.

The loss to Wichita State will hurt for another month, but for the most point I've moved on. We had a GREAT season, just finished a bit short to a good team.

Bocco
03-26-2013, 06:51 AM
Post of the Year from NJZag and "Co" Responses of the Year from BD and TZF. (My opinion).

Agreed! Unfortunately since it is longer than a tweet those that need to read it won't.

ZagLawGrad
03-26-2013, 07:10 AM
Not going to change conferences, the other schools would never allow partial membership in the WCC, they already have a big enough issue with Gonzaga being the favored school, but they put up with it due to the cash. GU does not have the funds to participate in the MWC in other sports. So that would leave the Big Sky for non Basketball sports, with no option for baseball.
The sad thing is that the other schools will commit to building their own programs, improving facilities, scheduling aggressively, etc... Every school seems to put a 3 yr burst and then fades away. Hopefully St. Mary's helps, but losing Delly and the penalties are going to make it very difficult. BYU will be OK, maybe USD takes the next step, but most likely it is a 2 or 3 team league.

Agree with the Vandal. Probably not going to happen for lots of reasons.

But it needs to happen, IMO.

WCC has been an adequate stomping ground for 12 years or so, but time now for some new scenery.

I hate those talking heads and bashing of the Zags, but there's enough noise out there about the weaknesses and lack of respect for the WCC that it's beyond mere coincidence.

Ignore it if you want and circle the wagons against the rest of the college basketball world, but there's some truth to the things being said.

oldestlion
03-26-2013, 07:52 AM
This conference is a deadend.

USF, USD, LMU, et al are all programs with no fan support and tiny budgets, and don't care about winning.

We need out of the WCC ASAP!

Perhaps you have it backwards. Your so called lower level teams might not have any incentive to move up because even their self designated spokesman can't get deep into the tournament. What hope do the lesser teams have if they get considerably better? Should they look to the Zags for leadership in defending the 3, for inbounding skills, for not running the floor instead of begging the reps for a foul or for having several fans that insist that calls or non-calls were the reason for losing.

Perhaps the ignored shortcomings of the self-designated leader might make it difficult to get fans, better coaches and better players, especially if any candidate reads the constant implications that the WCC is not a place to be.

Perhaps the time to bash the WCC is after you win the conference title and at least make it to the Final Four. At that point, another conference might ask Gonzaga to join (has anyone asked yet?).

ZagFanInNC
03-26-2013, 08:08 AM
And last I checked nobody from the mighty MWC is in the sweet 16. Do I think Gonzaga will make the sweet 16 again? Not really. But maybe in the next 10 years they can. Do I think they will make March Madness for 6 more years? Yes. Do I think the WCC will get better? No. ( BYU will be king next year )
Sweet 16 and round of 32 is our cap. Elite 8 in 1999 was our cap.
But I still love my Zags.

This is the most moronic stance for a sports fan. I really can't stand to hear this argument.

This is the same as being a fan of any NFL team and saying, "I hope we just make the playoffs, who cares how we do after that. I don't think they will ever win a Superbowl".

If you just want to watch the games and don't care about the outcome why post your opinion?

ZagFanInNC
03-26-2013, 08:18 AM
:lmao: You're a funny guy.

The rest of the WCC takes the money we make for them from the NCAA Tournament, patting us on the head without a thank you. Remember how long it took for the WCC tournament to make it to the Pac NW, after all those years in San Diego?

If GU tells the WCC to jump, their reply will be "do the letters K-M-A mean anything to you?"

If you really think that then you obviously don't understand the landscape of college sports right now. Why would a conference allow what is obviously it's most important member leave without trying to accommodate them?

This conference is bad as it is. If GU leaves, BYU is gone... the WCC will then be a complete joke... ESPN will pull its TV contract...

former1dog
03-26-2013, 08:33 AM
This conference is bad as it is. If GU leaves, BYU is gone... the WCC will then be a complete joke... ESPN will pull its TV contract...

I should probably leave this thread alone, but obviously, I can't help myself.

#1, stop with the calling fellow posters moronic and stating that they don't know what they're talking about stuff. It adds nothing to the discussion.

Secondly, I'd like you to justify with evidence that the WCC is a poor conference relative to other conferences with similar resources and student body sizes. I think you're going to have a hard time doing that. What I think you'll actually find is that the WCC is immensely successful.

Have a good day.

GoZags
03-26-2013, 09:11 AM
Have a listen -- Thayne took changing conferences off the table in this interview several weeks ago (http://www.sportsradiokjr.com/pages/Mitch_in_the_Morning.html?article=11031758)


I think that now more than ever it is evident that the WCC, as we are affiliated now, is not a good fit for tournament success. We play a difficult non-conference schedule in the first half of the season and then start playing down to the level of the other WCC teams. By the time the tournament starts we have forgotten what it is like to play against legitimate competition and we struggle in the tournament.

There are 2 realistic opportunities for GU to fix this problem:

1- Join the new Big East as a basketball only member while keeping other sports in the WCC.

Positives:

Better overall competition in conference play.
More money from their new Fox TV deal.
Stay in a basketball centric conference.
Be affiliated with like minded religious institutions (Butler as the exception)


Negatives:

Travel, travel, travel.
Lose current rivalries.
If we have an off season there is a chance that we... (gulp) might not make the tournament.


Unfortunately this is looking like less of a possibility since the new Big East announced they would not be expanding further in the near future. This would be a great opportunity for GU to really prove it is a national brand.. who knows, it could still happen.

2- Become a partial basketball member of the WCC and keep the rest of the sports fully in the WCC.

I think that this would be the best move for Gonzaga. Fortunately for GU we have all of the negotiating power in this relationship. If we threaten to leave the WCC I am almost positive they would bend over backwards to accommodate us.

Positives:

Negotiate a new TV deal (Fox, ESPN, Turner, a mix...). This would result in more money and better exposure proving we are a national brand.
Only play each WCC member once during the season opening up 10 more non-conference games.
Remain in the WCC conference tournament giving us a chance every year to make the tournament.


Negatives:

We wouldn't play a home and away every year in conference, it would just alternate every year.


I think this would easily be the best option for GU. We would have no problem negotiating a new TV deal with a network that would allow all of GU's games to be televised nationally. I really like Turner Sports and they have the multiple platforms that would allow for this.

We would also be able to eliminate the RPI dwellers in the conference for at least one game in the year. Adding 10 more non-conference games, specifically toward the end of the year, will allow us to increase our SOS and be prepared when it is tournament time.

I am really proud of what GU was able to accomplish this year but tournament success is really the barometer that teams are measured by in college basketball. I think either of these options would be an improvement, staying in the WCC as we are now is hurting us.

QuickCoug
03-26-2013, 09:19 AM
BYU fan here. Long-time lurker, first-time poster. Just a few comments:

1) GU is the original poster child for why conference affiliation doesn't matter. Your deepest tourney runs came out of a lower-profile-at-the-time WCC. FGCU took down two very good teams to get to the sweet 16 this year and they came from a much weaker conference (at least by perception) than the WCC.

2) There's a lot of parity these days in college basketball and a lot less margin-for-error than there used to be. There used to be a much clearer distinction between the top seeds and the bottom seeds. I'm just not seeing it anymore. KU only beat a 16-seed WKU by 7 in the first round and then struggled to beat 8-seed UNC in virtual home games. 1-seed Indiana barely squeaked by 9-seed Temple. 2-seed Ohio State nearly lost to 10-seed Iowa State. 3-seed UNM lost to 14-seed Harvard. 2-seed Georgetown got dump-trucked by 15-seed FGCU. I just don't see a lot separating GU's performance from the disappointing performances of other top seeds.

3) Unless something has changed in the MWC, their mantra has been that they won't accept non-football-playing schools. If they would have taken BYU's non-football sports, BYU likely would have stuck around. However, some of the MWC's moves almost seem to have been orchestrated simply to spite BYU so who knows.

4) BYU has signed a really nice 2013 recruiting class. The problem for us is, however, many of the best players are leaving on church missions before enrolling. Our biggest weakness that past season was consistent 3-point shooting and there doesn't look to be any sure-fire solution to that for next year. BYU will probably be very good to elite in three to four years, but the missions are really killing us right now.

5) I think many are overlooking USF as a threat for the future. I really can't stand their coach, but that team is young and shoots incredibly well. They bring back six guys next year who shot better than 40% from the 3-point arc (and the percentages aren't statistical anomalies - each of those guys had a decent number of attempts).

John in DC
03-26-2013, 09:23 AM
I think you have a major misunderstanding about what drives conference moves. It is football money. This is what led to the break up of the Big East. Basketball is a great game and the Zags are good at it but they don't bring enough eyeballs to warrant anyone taking Gonzaga as a basketball only school. Now some may not like hearing this but it is the truth.

ZagLawGrad
03-26-2013, 09:25 AM
GoZags, maybe it ought to come back on the table?

Maybe this discussion about conferences is a waste of time because a change will never happen, but the debate over whether it should happen is one worthy of some further talk.

Otherwise, staus quo is where we are at and we need to accept that a Sweet Sixteen is the ceiling, and even that has been a stalled goal for a while now.

NorCalCoug
03-26-2013, 09:59 AM
This sure is an ironic thread on a board where many posters have lamblasted BYU fans for comments about the WCC.....

I like the WCC. I think some are being unduly harsh. I won't lie though, I wouldn't be sad at a BYU/Gonzaga package deal heading to the MWC as Oly sports only members.

GoZags
03-26-2013, 10:21 AM
GoZags, maybe it ought to come back on the table?

Maybe this discussion about conferences is a waste of time because a change will never happen, but the debate over whether it should happen is one worthy of some further talk.

Otherwise, staus quo is where we are at and we need to accept that a Sweet Sixteen is the ceiling, and even that has been a stalled goal for a while now.

Who in the world is accepting that as the ceiling? Nobody that I know.

cjm720
03-26-2013, 11:08 AM
GoZags, maybe it ought to come back on the table?

Maybe this discussion about conferences is a waste of time because a change will never happen, but the debate over whether it should happen is one worthy of some further talk.

Otherwise, staus quo is where we are at and we need to accept that a Sweet Sixteen is the ceiling, and even that has been a stalled goal for a while now.

Nope, not going to accept that...and would bet pretty much anything that you're wrong.

Oregonzagnut
03-26-2013, 11:26 AM
GoZags, maybe it ought to come back on the table?

Maybe this discussion about conferences is a waste of time because a change will never happen, but the debate over whether it should happen is one worthy of some further talk.

Otherwise, staus quo is where we are at and we need to accept that a Sweet Sixteen is the ceiling, and even that has been a stalled goal for a while now.

If you think there is a sweet 16 ceiling then you have a ceiling on your ability to be truthful and rational.

Not even Grambling St has a ceiling on its potential over the course of a decade. Period.

bartruff1
03-26-2013, 11:36 AM
Who in the world is accepting that as the ceiling? Nobody that I know.

Well, you don't know me...but I think that is fine for a University like Gonzaga.

Complete disclosure....I should also admit, that I have a life and that if we never get to a Sweet Sixteen that won't have a significant effect on the quality of that life.

I also really really like the WWC and David Stockton.

ZagLawGrad
03-26-2013, 11:42 AM
If you think there is a sweet 16 ceiling then you have a ceiling on your ability to be truthful and rational.

Not even Grambling St has a ceiling on its potential over the course of a decade. Period.

No disrespect intended, but my sense is that you're talking with your heart and not your mind. You can also dunk a basketball in your dreams, right?

Sure, the Zags (and Grambling) have a chance every year to go to the Sweet 16 or higher, although for the Zags the last 4 years didn't turn out that way. And, by the way, a Sweet 16's not a bad gig----it's a huge and worthy accomplishment to get there.

My opinion---and it's just that---is that unless something significantly changes----perhaps a new and better league, some 5 star recruits, blind luck, the moon and stars magically align up, something----the Sweet 16 is a ceiling you will have to come to grips with.

What's not truthful or rational about that based on the past several years? Hell, even the Vegas oddsmakers consider all of those things and they have millions of dollars at stake.

ZagLawGrad
03-26-2013, 11:46 AM
Well, you don't know me...but I think that is fine for a University like Gonzaga.

Complete disclosure....I should also admit, that I have a life and that if we never get to a Sweet Sixteen that won't have a significant effect on the quality of that life.

I also really really like the WWC and David Stockton.

Bart---you're not alone. And there's nothing wrong with that.

And DS is definitely a solid Zag.

CDC84
03-26-2013, 11:54 AM
I am fine with being in the WCC right now, but Gonzaga, as always, should keep open ears.

I just wish more programs in the league would invest in basketball more seriously. I don't think you need to be a Gonzaga fan to feel this way.

My only fear - and it is minor - is if this superconference thing is taken to the extreme and the big boys pull away from the NCAA and create their own tournament. Personally, I don't think that will ever happen when it comes to college basketball because CBS/Turner won't approve, and they call the shots. The tournament is fueled by office pools and betting, and the Florida Gulf Coasts are a huge part of the appeal of the thing. If you take that away, ratings will suffer big time.

ZagLawGrad
03-26-2013, 11:57 AM
I am fine with being in the WCC right now, but Gonzaga, as always, should keep open ears.

I just wish more programs in the league would invest in basketball more seriously. I don't think you need to be a Gonzaga fan to feel this way.

Nicely said. :clap:

CDC84
03-26-2013, 12:09 PM
I still continue to have major issues with the league's decision to add Pacific. I still think it was a horrible basketball move. It takes 2 non-league games away from Gonzaga and anyone else in the league who would like to enhance their tournament resume by playing quality teams from around the country. There's less tournament revenue for each team. Plus, if BYU or someone else leaves, the league will be forced to add an RPI killer to get back to 10 teams. The league would be worse than it was before BYU joined. That and the poorly organized secondary TV contract with Time Warner Sports suggests that the league needs to make better business decisions when it looks toward its future.

bartruff1
03-26-2013, 12:19 PM
Bart---you're not alone. And there's nothing wrong with that.

And DS is definitely a solid Zag.

Your too kind.....I do feel a little sorry for BYU, they have only had one Sweet Sixteen in 30 years....maybe the WCC will help them grow their progam.

bigblahla
03-26-2013, 02:59 PM
I still continue to have major issues with the league's decision to add Pacific. I still think it was a horrible basketball move. It takes 2 non-league games away from Gonzaga and anyone else in the league who would like to enhance their tournament resume by playing quality teams from around the country. There's less tournament revenue for each team. Plus, if BYU or someone else leaves, the league will be forced to add an RPI killer to get back to 10 teams. The league would be worse than it was before BYU joined. That and the poorly organized secondary TV contract with Time Warner Sports suggests that the league needs to make better business decisions when it looks toward its future.

The brain child of Tiger Ted and our beloved commissioner the Z-Man.

Pacific will be better than our bottom feeders by year 3. We do lose another two OOC games.

The WCC will never get better until whomever is the commissioner decides to take a proactive role in putting butts into the seats. It is of the utmost importance because recruits like to play in front of packed houses.

Years have proven empty gyms don't draw talent It's time for a different approach. Why is something so simple viewed as hard?

CAN"T SELL TICKETS YOU GIVE THEM STRATEGICALLY AWAY TO THE BENEFIT OF YOUR IMMEDIATE DEMOGRAPHIC and in the process build a new fan base.

I'd be ashamed to call myself a marketing person at some WCC institutions.

C'mon Z-man get off your derriere and build a conference or go away.

Just my opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

billyjack
03-26-2013, 09:45 PM
From here on the east coast, Providence Friars fan, here are some hopefully not clueless thoughts:
- the Big East would jump at the chance to add the Zags if the travel issue can be solved.
- stay in the WCC vs moving to the Mountain West. The WCC has a much higher ceiling.
- a significant move to improve the Big East in the 80s was Dave Gavitt making the schools play in arenas with capacities of 6000 seats or more. Georgetown used to play in 2000 seat McDonough gym, BC at their pint sized Alumni Hall, Seton Hall at tiny Walsh gym... we looked like a minor league until we played in NBA type arenas.
- following up on the previous comment, most if not all of your schools play near NBA or NHL arenas... if St Mary's can pack 4k into their Moraga gym, then they can double that easily vs Gonzaga for starters at the Oakland arena where Golden State plays. Gonzaga at a minimum should play each WCC road game in an close-by NBA-NHL arena... Portland, San Jose (vs Santa Clara), Staples Center vs LMU, etc.
- I've read that Zaninovich (sp) has been a great commissioner, and is on the shortlist of possible Big East commissioners. But in reading through the WCC hierarchy, I can't find any Gonzaga representation in the league offices. In fact, I can find only 2 WCC grads, both alums of St Mary's. Only 2 others have any Catholic school backgrounds-- there's a Villanova grad and a Duquesne grad. Maybe if you consider the WCC to be failing you, maybe demand that a Zag get a more prominent position. You guys have absolutely dominated the conference, and that should give you a good place in the league offices... the league should follow your formula for building up the other teams.
- the basic construction of the WCC in my opinion gives it a high ceiling, and it's why I think the Zags are in a good place in the conference.

billyjack
03-26-2013, 10:11 PM
...following up on previous post...
- the high ceiling is from having a school in every major west coast city (assuming the Zags grab a good chunk of interest in Seattle). There is no reason why Portland can't market themselves to start filling the Blazers arena. Compare this to the low ceiling of the Mountain West playing in Laramie and Fort Collins.
- set up a scheduling partnership with the Big East. St John's has been playing San Francisco, and maybe Creighton can renew its old time scheduling vs Portland. Restart the former highly regarded Cable Car Classic during either Thanksgiving or Christmas breaks, and invite Georgetown, Marquette, etc, from the Big East. Exposure back east would help the WCC too.
- can someone explain why LMU and the SF Dons in particular have struggled so much? They have the advantage of being in great recruiting grounds. What would be the first steps to get them to improve?
- just want to say you guys had an excellent year. #1 ranking will be hanging in the rafters... I wouldn't trade that accomplishment for an extra round in the tourney. Wichita just wouldn't miss, hitting unlikely 25 footers those last 5 minutes... plus they got away with a travel and a pretty obvious hack on Olynyk... sometimes the opponent gets some improbable breaks... (the Patriots missed out on a 19-0 season because a guy caught a pass against his helmet!)...
- also, I apologize if I'm butting in to your site here and being a pain... also, you guys of course know the day to day politics of the WCC more than I could ever grasp... you guys are welcome on the Friar board any time.

ZagFanInNC
03-26-2013, 10:38 PM
And this notion is based on what? I have to think you are seriously delusional unless you can point to something solid that gives sunstance to your hypothesis.

This notion is based on common sense... who plays on the WCC's ESPN games? Gonzaga vs. __________. Do you honestly think the WCC would have the current TV contract if GU was not there, would BYU stay in the WCC if GU left.

The obvious answers are no, GU is what drives the conference. If that doesn't give GU the advantage in negotiations I don't know what else would. Throwing around words like delusional is completely ignorant in this case because I am using obvious facts that NO ONE can dispute.

ZagFanInNC
03-26-2013, 11:10 PM
I should probably leave this thread alone, but obviously, I can't help myself.

#1, stop with the calling fellow posters moronic and stating that they don't know what they're talking about stuff. It adds nothing to the discussion.

Secondly, I'd like you to justify with evidence that the WCC is a poor conference relative to other conferences with similar resources and student body sizes. I think you're going to have a hard time doing that. What I think you'll actually find is that the WCC is immensely successful.

Have a good day.

I never said anyone didn't know what they are talking about, this is an opinion based board after all. I just can't fathom why someone wouldn't care if their college basketball team had tournament success... yes, that is a moronic thought process imo.

The difference between GU and other WCC schools, not named BYU, is that we reinvested in our athletics when we have found success. This is the reason we have had continued success and in the words of our coach and school we view ourselves as a national brand. What other WCC team, not named BYU, views itself as a national brand?

I am not stat guy because I don't think stats tell the whole story. I don't need Greg Heister telling me how great the competition in the WCC is anymore, you should be able to tell how poor most of these teams are by watching the games.

MDABE80
03-27-2013, 12:48 AM
...following up on previous post...
- the high ceiling is from having a school in every major west coast city (assuming the Zags grab a good chunk of interest in Seattle). There is no reason why Portland can't market themselves to start filling the Blazers arena. Compare this to the low ceiling of the Mountain West playing in Laramie and Fort Collins.
- set up a scheduling partnership with the Big East. St John's has been playing San Francisco, and maybe Creighton can renew its old time scheduling vs Portland. Restart the former highly regarded Cable Car Classic during either Thanksgiving or Christmas breaks, and invite Georgetown, Marquette, etc, from the Big East. Exposure back east would help the WCC too.
- can someone explain why LMU and the SF Dons in particular have struggled so much? They have the advantage of being in great recruiting grounds. What would be the first steps to get them to improve?
- just want to say you guys had an excellent year. #1 ranking will be hanging in the rafters... I wouldn't trade that accomplishment for an extra round in the tourney. Wichita just wouldn't miss, hitting unlikely 25 footers those last 5 minutes... plus they got away with a travel and a pretty obvious hack on Olynyk... sometimes the opponent gets some improbable breaks... (the Patriots missed out on a 19-0 season because a guy caught a pass against his helmet!)...
- also, I apologize if I'm butting in to your site here and being a pain... also, you guys of course know the day to day politics of the WCC more than I could ever grasp... you guys are welcome on the Friar board any time.

Not at all. We need to know what the other coast is thinking. Without Mr Spock, I don't think we can solve the travel problem. One thing might be to play some of the OOC in the 2nd half of the season. Outside of becoming an Independent, the WCC issue is difficult to solve. For us, it's been a good league in most other sports. Basketball for the Zags is football for the BCS schools. The so called"Catholic 7"...now Big East......will expand over time. Likely we'll be part of that with some of our WCC brethern coming on board. I'd like to think so anyway.

We'll iron it out in time. Thanks for your input.
Overall GU isn't here for basketball glory. Basketball, as precious as it is to us, is only part of the picture here at GU. It's surely exciting though.

bigblahla
03-27-2013, 02:05 AM
- can someone explain why LMU and the SF Dons in particular have struggled so much? They have the advantage of being in great recruiting grounds. What would be the first steps to get them to improve?

It seems the general point of view of our brethren at these two programs is that other entertainment options and events in their marketing area hinders their ability to draw fans. Their position in the conference standings doesn't help but it isn't a deal killer it just means marketing has to be more creative.

It's like the chicken and egg. Which comes first?

The consensus among them is until we win they won't come. To this I say HOGWASH. As you pointed out these programs are surrounded by millions of potential fans and the inability of our brethren to draw them to their games is as much or more about their lack of understanding how to market their program to the surrounding demographic than the competitive state of their programs.

I think USF is on the rise but doubt even with an improving team they will draw any more fans than in recent years for the majority of their home games. This makes no sense to me at all and again points directly at the marketing departments of the majority of WCC institutions as being incompetent and clueless as to how to put butts in the seats.

Hence my railing at the Z-Man as I believe he should be the focal point and driving force behind increasing attendance in the WCC conference wide.

I'd send him another email but he hasn't bothered to answer the last one questioning why he allows WCC referees to ignore the rule book.

No such thing as hand checks or playing through contact.

Appreciate your views.

Just my opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

NJZag
03-27-2013, 03:14 AM
From here on the east coast, Providence Friars fan, here are some hopefully not clueless thoughts:
- the Big East would jump at the chance to add the Zags if the travel issue can be solved.
- stay in the WCC vs moving to the Mountain West. The WCC has a much higher ceiling.
- a significant move to improve the Big East in the 80s was Dave Gavitt making the schools play in arenas with capacities of 6000 seats or more. Georgetown used to play in 2000 seat McDonough gym, BC at their pint sized Alumni Hall, Seton Hall at tiny Walsh gym... we looked like a minor league until we played in NBA type arenas.
- following up on the previous comment, most if not all of your schools play near NBA or NHL arenas... if St Mary's can pack 4k into their Moraga gym, then they can double that easily vs Gonzaga for starters at the Oakland arena where Golden State plays. Gonzaga at a minimum should play each WCC road game in an close-by NBA-NHL arena... Portland, San Jose (vs Santa Clara), Staples Center vs LMU, etc.
- I've read that Zaninovich (sp) has been a great commissioner, and is on the shortlist of possible Big East commissioners. But in reading through the WCC hierarchy, I can't find any Gonzaga representation in the league offices. In fact, I can find only 2 WCC grads, both alums of St Mary's. Only 2 others have any Catholic school backgrounds-- there's a Villanova grad and a Duquesne grad. Maybe if you consider the WCC to be failing you, maybe demand that a Zag get a more prominent position. You guys have absolutely dominated the conference, and that should give you a good place in the league offices... the league should follow your formula for building up the other teams.
- the basic construction of the WCC in my opinion gives it a high ceiling, and it's why I think the Zags are in a good place in the conference.

Great opening posts, oh Frère Friar. And welcome! I'm a GU double dipper with Zag and Hoya ties, and a little acquaintance with the Big East. Given the geographic locators in NJ, I've probably been to more BET's than WCC tourneys and toss in a few trips down the road at the RAC when the Hoyas are in town. Bro-in-law is a Friar, like you.)

Gavitt was a giant visionary, bless him. And so was John Thompson, Jr. (of Providence collegiate hoops fame before going NBA then landing with the Hoyas as their transformative era coach). Good times.

Some of your pointers are well taken, and some might not work. Agree 100% about the higher ceiling in the urban markets that the WCC calls home. I've been to some of the Zags' road games in California over the years and when those teams host the Zags, the gyms get pretty crowded. Also, if a particular team gets hot for awhile, they'll even pack the house for games with other conference foes. College visits at WCC schools with my offspring found me sitting in on some games that didn't necessarily feature the Zags as one side of a matchup. These days Moraga and Provo produce crowds, thanks to those teams currently sharing upper tier with GU in the WCC.

Since the '99 run to the E8 by the Zags, there've been sparks of potential greatness that flickered for awhile for some of the other teams in the league but then dimmed, as the WCC went from a past history of sending one auto-bid team to the NCAA's which, more often than not, would find that single team have a one-and-done exit. (Notable exceptions from back in the day would have been USF's prominence, including a NC with Bill Russell, and some heady days for Loyola Marymount as the WCC's auto-bid from '88-'90 with Paul Westhead as coach and which included an E8.) Since '99, the WCC has often had the one auto-bid plus one at-large get into the NCAAT. Mini-history from Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Men's_Division_I_Tournament_bids_by_school_an d_conference#West_Coast_Conference).

While we enjoy seeing it add to our WCC total, we can't really claim BYU's NCAA history of many bids as something that sprung from within the WCC. BYU has been like a bride who arrived with good-sized dowry.

Pepperdine showed some promise in '00 and '02. San Diego in 2003 and again in 2008 when it actually won against your conference friends UConn. But in the years since 2005, it's most reliably been the Gaels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Mary%27s_Gaels_men%27s_basketball#NCAA_Tourn ament_results) who've trekked off to Dance at the same time the Zags did.

It was in that mid-2000's timeframe where the WCC's fans might have aspired to become a league where maybe enough teams would improve that we'd find 3 getting NCAA bids as part of some annual expectation. In one of those years, also, we might have been the #7 or #8 conference in RPI strength nationwide. But things just never kept going on that improving path. After some tussle between Few and WCC poobah's about how the league tourney was an RPI buzz-kill for the Zags, hurting its own NCAA seeding, the format did get reworked for bye's for the top teams.

My observation and perception is that the other WCC teams pack their home courts when their teams are enjoying some success, but otherwise, they just don't unless it's a game against the Zags, bringing tv coverage into their games. And sometimes not even then.

I've asked kids on the California campuses why they don't support their teams more faithfully by showing up to hoops games. Answer: California WEATHER. There are things to do outdoors on weekends that kids age 18-22 will opt for rather than sticking around campus to go sit for a game. Makes sense, actually. When you think about the Big East's original footprint from 1979 to 1991, it ran from DC at the southern end up to the CT schools. Cold weather geography. Kids at Providence aren't running over to Newport to surf in January, but kids at Santa Clara might well run over to spend a surf weekend in Santa Cruz. And kids at San Diego are at a campus overlooking surf and, if they don't now, I think they used to offer partial athletic scholarships for surfing.

My own personal opinion is that the WCC is our right fit and we've got to push more for its strengthening. Adding BYU was a good move. Adding UOP brings back an earlier WCC member into the fold and gets the number of members up to 4 in that general NorCal area, although Stockton is no major media market. I wouldn't be unhappy to see the WCC expand a bit more by adding coast hugging major media market Seattle to the area of private school lockdown by WCC and maybe search for some kind of decent private school in SoCal to bring to 4 the number of conference members down there. Right now, we tend to do Thurs-Sat games that involve St Mary's and USF on one weekend of away games, two of the SoCal schools on another, then it's plane hopping time for a third weekend of games at NorCal plus SoCal schools.

For Zag fans who are already complaining that the addition of UOP is going to dilute RPI and squeeze out calendar needed for RPI-building ooc games, the Big East actually offered up a format which might handle the problem. The BE simply didn't require every team to do both home-and-aways with every other team in a single conference season.

Historic rivalries were preserved for home-and-away while other matchups alternated the hosting school in different years. It might not seem fair but at least the conference tourney is at a neutral site. AND, if handled appropriately, maybe our self-admitted SOS/RPI problem could be managed by limiting the regular season games with cellar-dwellers to just one.

What I would love to see is the WCC engage the New Big East in some kind of challenge series. The old SEC-BigEast Challenge was ersatz, and a weak attempt at duplicating the success of the ACC-Big 10 Challenge.

But toss in a bunch of scrappy religiously-affiliated hoops schools from both coasts to a challenge series and heck, I think there'd be lucrative tv rights possibilities to something like that. And as we watch to see how big some of these newly expanding conferences grow (ACC is going to be up to what? 15 teams this coming July? More on the way?), there might be an opening for the hoops-centric scrappers to form some kind of super-conference with Eastern and Western divisions. That would be some major bargaining power for favorable tv rights deals, imho.

If Commish Z ends up getting the Big East gig, the Presidents of our little WCC member schools ought to demand that he use his WCC phone to leave a message on his future BE answering machine, inviting the BE to a challenge series. And then say "yes" when he picks up the message. ;-)

NJZag
03-27-2013, 03:46 AM
:lmao: You're a funny guy.

The rest of the WCC takes the money we make for them from the NCAA Tournament, patting us on the head without a thank you. Remember how long it took for the WCC tournament to make it to the Pac NW, after all those years in San Diego?

If GU tells the WCC to jump, their reply will be "do the letters K-M-A mean anything to you?"

Think about all the years it took for the WCC tourney to trek to the Toreros' Slim Gym after years in the Bay Area and repeat visits at the old Toso/new Leavey. We're like the late arriving guests at a party who brought our own red plastic cups to fill up with beer from the keg out in back of the pickup truck that brought us, just in case the early arrivals had already claimed the crystal to fill with champagne. And we were wearing socks under our Birkenstocks and dusting snow off our Eddie Bauer while they were attired by Nieman and Gumps.

The WCC had its origins in the early 1950's in the Bay area as the California Basketball Association. We're a late-joining member that knocked on the door in 1979. There's always going to be a certain center of gravity to the conference that's rooted in the Bay area and tied to long-ago pigskin glories at Kezar Stadium.

Along the Big East's timeline of more recent vintage as a younger conference only founded in 1979, the analogy would be to ask "Why did the C7 walk off with the name Big East and the contract at Madison Square Garden?" Answer: they represented the majority of the schools who were there at the beginning.

Does it bother me that the WCC is like that? He!!, no. I think it's one of the funnier and funkier aspects of the quirky conference we've called home for nearly 35 years.

NJZag
03-27-2013, 04:15 AM
Have a listen -- Thayne took changing conferences off the table in this interview several weeks ago (http://www.sportsradiokjr.com/pages/Mitch_in_the_Morning.html?article=11031758)

8:50 and beyond is money.

Thayne understands what clicks for GU. Good!

TexasZagFan
03-27-2013, 05:05 AM
...following up on previous post...
- the high ceiling is from having a school in every major west coast city (assuming the Zags grab a good chunk of interest in Seattle). There is no reason why Portland can't market themselves to start filling the Blazers arena. Compare this to the low ceiling of the Mountain West playing in Laramie and Fort Collins.
- set up a scheduling partnership with the Big East. St John's has been playing San Francisco, and maybe Creighton can renew its old time scheduling vs Portland. Restart the former highly regarded Cable Car Classic during either Thanksgiving or Christmas breaks, and invite Georgetown, Marquette, etc, from the Big East. Exposure back east would help the WCC too.
- can someone explain why LMU and the SF Dons in particular have struggled so much? They have the advantage of being in great recruiting grounds. What would be the first steps to get them to improve?
- just want to say you guys had an excellent year. #1 ranking will be hanging in the rafters... I wouldn't trade that accomplishment for an extra round in the tourney. Wichita just wouldn't miss, hitting unlikely 25 footers those last 5 minutes... plus they got away with a travel and a pretty obvious hack on Olynyk... sometimes the opponent gets some improbable breaks... (the Patriots missed out on a 19-0 season because a guy caught a pass against his helmet!)...
- also, I apologize if I'm butting in to your site here and being a pain... also, you guys of course know the day to day politics of the WCC more than I could ever grasp... you guys are welcome on the Friar board any time.

Just wanted to second the others' comments. Everybody is welcome on these boards, feel free to hang around.

Good ideas, I like the scheduling partnership with the Big East. Might help Georgetown prepare for the Dance. ;)

BTW, what possessed Pitt inking Jamie Dixon to a 10 year extension after losing in the first round? Is the answer "to keep him from going to USC/UCLA"?

TexasZagFan
03-27-2013, 05:08 AM
Think about all the years it took for the WCC tourney to trek to the Toreros' Slim Gym after years in the Bay Area and repeat visits at the old Toso/new Leavey. We're like the late arriving guests at a party who brought our own red plastic cups to fill up with beer from the keg out in back of the pickup truck that brought us, just in case the early arrivals had already claimed the crystal to fill with champagne. And we were wearing socks under our Birkenstocks and dusting snow off our Eddie Bauer while they were attired by Nieman and Gumps.

The WCC had its origins in the early 1950's in the Bay area as the California Basketball Association. We're a late-joining member that knocked on the door in 1979. There's always going to be a certain center of gravity to the conference that's rooted in the Bay area and tied to long-ago pigskin glories at Kezar Stadium.

Along the Big East's timeline of more recent vintage as a younger conference only founded in 1979, the analogy would be to ask "Why did the C7 walk off with the name Big East and the contract at Madison Square Garden?" Answer: they represented the majority of the schools who were there at the beginning.

Does it bother me that the WCC is like that? He!!, no. I think it's one of the funnier and funkier aspects of the quirky conference we've called home for nearly 35 years.

Don't knock Kezar...my Dad took me to a couple Niners' games when they played there.

former1dog
03-27-2013, 05:26 AM
I am not stat guy because I don't think stats tell the whole story. I don't need Greg Heister telling me how great the competition in the WCC is anymore, you should be able to tell how poor most of these teams are by watching the games.

My suggestion is that you familiarize yourself with the stats, then. They certainly don't tell the whole story but the stats do provide context. Perhaps if you understood the context of the discussion you brought up you might not be so defensive.

Beyond the obvious success that the WCC has in basketball with very small schools with small budgets relative to similar schools across the country you'll also find powerhouses (literally) on a national level in other sports like soccer, baseball, cross country, etc.

willandi
03-27-2013, 06:19 AM
I like the idea of going to a 12 or 14 school conference, North and South divisions, and playing home and home against one division and alternate years against the other.
I could see adding Seattle to Portland, GU and SF, SC and SMC for the northern 6 leaving SD, PEPP, LMU, Pacific, and BYU (would THEY accept that?) as the south, needing to to add one.
What are the faith based Div 1 schools on the West Coast? How hard would something like that be?
I also understand that the SoCal students may want other weekend events, rather than staying on campus, but surely there are outside individuals and corporations that would love to get involved and fill larger venues. As was pointed out, GIVING AWAY TICKETS TO YOUNG KIDS AND THEIR PARENTS WILL BUILD A FAN BASE!
The split conference would allow more OOC games, not less, and a Big East Challenge would pay off, if the bottom dwellers of both could raise their level of play.
Since many of the schools HAVE shown that they can be national powers in the other sports, it would not be unreasonable to require them to upgrade their facilities, or schedule games at available larger venues.
The WCC fits for the Zags in so many ways, if the commish could just prevail on the individual schools to upgrade their aspirations and facilities, it would/should work just fine. Time for the rest of the schools to become more involved. Maybe changing the amount of payout from the NCAA's to schools that don't contribute would shock them into acting? I don't know.
I just like some of the concepts being tossed around here, and thought I would add my 2 cents (maybe no sense though).

Birddog
03-27-2013, 06:37 AM
This notion is based on common sense... who plays on the WCC's ESPN games? Gonzaga vs. __________. Do you honestly think the WCC would have the current TV contract if GU was not there, would BYU stay in the WCC if GU left.

The obvious answers are no, GU is what drives the conference. If that doesn't give GU the advantage in negotiations I don't know what else would. Throwing around words like delusional is completely ignorant in this case because I am using obvious facts that NO ONE can dispute.
It's still your opinion and conjecture.
GU does have the majority of ESPN broadcasts, but the rest of the conference was still represented. Two reasons GU is on more are because they were in a pre season showcase and because they made the semi and final games of the WCC Tourney.
Complete schedule here.
http://www.wccsports.com/sports/m-baskbl/sched/west-m-baskbl-sched-full.html

My original comment was in regard to this bold statement you made.
I thoroughly disagree with this... the other schools can say what they want but if GU tells the conference to jump they WILL say how high. That's not even a question IMO.

bartruff1
03-27-2013, 06:49 AM
Apparently you are not aware of the fact that Gonzaga is the center of the Basketball Universe...and that all things revolve around it ...at least on the West Coast....all the schedules...all the recruiting ...all the seeding ... reffing...etc... are done with Gonzaga in mind.

Birddog
03-27-2013, 07:09 AM
Apparently you are not aware of the fact that Gonzaga is the center of the Basketball Universe...and that all things revolve around it ...at least on the West Coast....all the schedules...all the recruiting ...all the seeding ... reffing...etc... are done with Gonzaga in mind.
Well who'd a thunk it!

I'm getting fired up about the possibility of a home and home with the SI swimsuits models though.

ZagFanInNC
03-27-2013, 01:00 PM
My suggestion is that you familiarize yourself with the stats, then. They certainly don't tell the whole story but the stats do provide context. Perhaps if you understood the context of the discussion you brought up you might not be so defensive.

Beyond the obvious success that the WCC has in basketball with very small schools with small budgets relative to similar schools across the country you'll also find powerhouses (literally) on a national level in other sports like soccer, baseball, cross country, etc.

If you feel like pulling up stats to try and defend the strength of the WCC then feel free. One really good team and two okay teams does not make a solid conference, almost nothing you pull up will convince me otherwise.

I think the rest of our sports fit fine in the WCC by the way, I never said otherwise.

former1dog
03-27-2013, 02:23 PM
If you feel like pulling up stats to try and defend the strength of the WCC then feel free. One really good team and two okay teams does not make a solid conference, almost nothing you pull up will convince me otherwise.

I think the rest of our sports fit fine in the WCC by the way, I never said otherwise.

If you're not going to let facts get in the way of a good argument, and it appears thats what you're going to do, then we are at an impasse.

Have a good day.

siliconzag
03-27-2013, 03:17 PM
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.

The WCC is our destiny. No other options make sense or are realistic. The best things for the Zags to do include:

1) Work on defensive approaches for March
2) Design game plans that step put the pedal to the metal in March
3) Regain the kind of enthusiasm and joy that we saw in the 1999 team and the current FGCU team. They are having fun. We have been playing way too uptight for a long time.

Work on those, the conference stuff falls in the imutable category, it seems.

Sili

CB4
03-27-2013, 03:31 PM
Gonzaga becomes an "Affiliate Member" of the Pac-12 for men's and women's basketball. The rest of the sports stay in the WCC.

:000tens:

edit: The Pac-12 also extends invites to UNLV, San Diego State, and BYU for affilate basketball membership. BYU and Gonzaga added to the Pac-12 North, SDSU and UNLV to the Pac-12 South.

Problems
BYU has it's own TV Network, UNLV and SDSU may want to stay in MWC.