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raise the zag
03-21-2013, 04:17 PM
We beat Southern. We fought contested 3pt shots & questionable officiating all game long.

Survived.

THUS,

Its Wichita St time.

Lighting quick guards, giant, strong - albeit raw - bigs down low. athletes at every position. WSU looks to dribble-drive and draw fouls on EVERY single possession. They will run. They are one of the top offensive rebounding teams in the country.

How do we stack up?

Question is -- who do we play at the 3 spot this game? Mike Hart struggled mightily today on defense and was taken out after 3 straight possessions of giving up the dribble-drive. Southern actually keyed in on him most of his mins.

Considering we'll be facing the most athletic team we've faced all season, will we see GLE at SF? Few might not have a choice if Hart can't contain the dribble again.

Wichita prides itself on their ability to penetrate.

More 3-guard lineups of Pangos, Bell, Stocks? This was the case for 90% of the game vs Southern...will we follow suit?

Personally, I hope we create a new game plan, b/c we need a new game plan vs this type of team.

In addition 6 mins for Dower and only 4 mins from Karnowski isn't going to get it done down the stretch.

More productive mins from our bench, not named Stocks. David made terrific plays, yet his lineup gets taken to the woodshed defensively.

Honestly, given this particular match-up, Guy Landry wouldn't be a bad call. It might be his time.

What say you?

23zagmd
03-21-2013, 04:38 PM
this looks a lot like the Kansas State team we played in Seattle.

I thought DS was the key to this game. I didn't see him getting abused defensively at all. Quite the contrary, I thought his ability to double team and create some havoc doing so was one of the differneces in the game. Also, ran the pick and roll amazingly and got the ball to the right people.

I thought Pangos struggled defensively and MH was not on the court because he wouldn't even look at the rim and we were having trouble scoring in the first half.

Baldwinzag
03-21-2013, 04:40 PM
Moving on...

Wichita St = Southern U. on steroids.

Honestly, outside of Louisville, VCU, Florida, and maybe Mizzou, I can't think of a worse, more horrifying match-up for the Zags defense/offense.

WSU pressures opposing guards well past the 3pt line, dribble drives relentlessly, and crashes the offensive boards better than 95% of teams in NCAA.

All Zag weaknesses or struggles to some extent.

After watching their game vs Creighton a week ago and their game vs Pitt today, this is a nightmare in terms of pure match-ups.

They have size underneath, yes raw, but athletic, mean, big, not afraid to foul and foul hard. Their guards are in attack mode all game on both sides of the ball. They have 3 Gary Bell-esque players on defense. or more athletic Mike Harts on the boards.

WSU has the personnel to neutralize our bigs, or at least frustrate them, and the guards to take advantage of our on-ball defense.

Pitt is/was known as a very solid perimeter defensive team and they got lit up by Wich St off the dribble. Not a good sign, imho.

It will take an all-out effort for us to win. A very good shooting night as well.

Refs need to allow us, especially our bigs to play their dribble game. The moment Elias or Kelly dribbled, the officials couldn't help but blow their whistle, they weren't used to their styles. Either a TO, travel, 3 second, or offensive foul. Than cannot happen again.

Looking at the field, I cannot list more than 2 or 3 teams that is a worse match-up for our Zags, no kidding.

IF we find a way to win, I like our next two games vs Wisc/K-State/Ohio St/etc much MUCH better than this game and not joking about that either.

The Shox are the antithesis type team to us.

Hoopaholic
03-21-2013, 04:40 PM
Won't be able to play center field and gamble off a single player against ws. Need good solid on ball defense and solid off ball rotation

whatazag
03-21-2013, 04:47 PM
Assuming we are back to our normal selves and not a repeat of what we just saw, think we should win convincingly. They play tough D, might be kinda like what we saw at BYU, but we should pull it out.

Only thing I have to go by was that we beat St Marys 3 times, who easily handled Creighton, who easily handled Wichita State. Means we should win right? Pretty sure I learned that in a math class somewhere.

Virginia Zags Fan
03-21-2013, 04:53 PM
Didn't see Creighton beat them. How did they do it? That may hold the key.

HOOTER
03-21-2013, 04:57 PM
Assuming we are back to our normal selves and not a repeat of what we just saw, think we should win convincingly. They play tough D, might be kinda like what we saw at BYU, but we should pull it out.

Only thing I have to go by was that we beat St Marys 3 times, who easily handled Creighton, who easily handled Wichita State. Means we should win right? Pretty sure I learned that in a math class somewhere.

I wouldn't normally do this, but I'll go with your math this time because I like the outcome.

But seriously, I think the Zags really weren't themselves, and the officiating really did stink. All this considered I think the next game will be much better.

I wouldn't mind different announcers also. Just sayin'.

zagapotomus
03-21-2013, 05:05 PM
Didn't see Creighton beat them. How did they do it? That may hold the key.

IIRC Creighton didn't win by pounding it in the middle, but then again McDermott is not as much of a banger as KO is. McDermott wasn't his stellar self either, scoring just 14 pts that game. They made the most of their outside game, hitting 11 3's. I just remember WSU's dreads-haired player driving and driving, getting fouled, with and1 followed by and1, which was frustrating. Guards have to be ready to shoot from beyond the arc. Creighton's defensive ability pales in comparison to ours though, so I like our chances.

Mantua
03-21-2013, 05:07 PM
They have beaten Creighton by 3 and lost to Creighton by 3. I saw them beat Creighton. Wichita is energetic and athletic, but perhaps a little less crafty than the Zags. We do well in running games.

Mantua
03-21-2013, 05:15 PM
I wouldn't normally do this, but I'll go with your math this time because I like the outcome.

But seriously, I think the Zags really weren't themselves, and the officiating really did stink. All this considered I think the next game will be much better.

I wouldn't mind different announcers also. Just sayin'..

Hooter,
I have to agree with you. Between the insanity of the calls and the insults and uninformed remarks from the announcers, watching this game was torture. Gottlieb Gotta Go.

....have any of you seen my bankamerica card today?

BJZags
03-21-2013, 05:20 PM
I think it was Seth Greenberg who commented that Southern was more athletic than Wichita State and the Zags should do fine against them

SteelZag
03-21-2013, 05:22 PM
They have beaten Creighton by 3 and lost to Creighton by 3. I saw them beat Creighton. Wichita is energetic and athletic, but perhaps a little less crafty than the Zags. We do well in running games.

And lost by twelve also.

MDABE80
03-21-2013, 05:38 PM
I think it was Seth Greenberg who commented that Southern was more athletic than Wichita State and the Zags should do fine against them

When it comes to this team, Seth is wrong. I think Wichita is a just plain scary team. The trouble is that they are very inconsistent......except in one department ...defense and rebounding..especially offensive boards. Creighton beat them by scoring 91. Doug had a spectacular game.
We best have our track shoes on and .......We best be rebounding 10 times better than today. If we don't we'll be crushed by 20.

krozman
03-21-2013, 05:43 PM
Can we all agree to stop calling them "WSU?" You're killing my brain!

THE SHOCKERS I think are going to be defensively just as hard as Southern athetically, but I doubt they make the shots that southern did. I see us controlling a bit more.

MickMick
03-21-2013, 05:45 PM
Zags win.

McZag
03-21-2013, 06:27 PM
2 Questions:

1. Same refs Saturday?

2. Which of these is needed:

a: Flip the switch and snap back to the team we saw in Feb

b: Take a deep breath, smile, have fun and play loose

Baldwinzag
03-21-2013, 06:30 PM
1. Same refs Saturday?


No, god, no (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31g0YE61PLQ)

McZag
03-21-2013, 06:51 PM
They are very proud of their defensive effort today. They expect a low scoring, half court style game Saturday. The were not impressed with EH and think they can keep KO out of the paint.

Overall, the Pitt win has gone to their head. Time for the Zags to get mad. Real mad.

MDABE80
03-21-2013, 06:59 PM
Link to thei rboard McZag?

WallaWallaZag
03-21-2013, 07:01 PM
http://shockernet.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?8-Wichita-State-Men-s-Basketball

bartruff1
03-21-2013, 07:04 PM
I think it was Seth Greenberg who commented that Southern was more athletic than Wichita State and the Zags should do fine against them

I think so...rusty...kind of reminds me of the game against LMU... came out flat but won it...hammered the Gaels in the next game...to bad Wichita... your not in Kansas anymore...

ZagNut08
03-21-2013, 07:06 PM
No, god, no (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31g0YE61PLQ)

Bravo

Just A Zag
03-21-2013, 07:23 PM
Moving on...

Wichita St = Southern U. on steroids.

Honestly, outside of Louisville, VCU, Florida, and maybe Mizzou, I can't think of a worse, more horrifying match-up for the Zags defense/offense.

WSU pressures opposing guards well past the 3pt line, dribble drives relentlessly, and crashes the offensive boards better than 95% of teams in NCAA.

All Zag weaknesses or struggles to some extent.

After watching their game vs Creighton a week ago and their game vs Pitt today, this is a nightmare in terms of pure match-ups.

They have size underneath, yes raw, but athletic, mean, big, not afraid to foul and foul hard. Their guards are in attack mode all game on both sides of the ball. They have 3 Gary Bell-esque players on defense. or more athletic Mike Harts on the boards.

WSU has the personnel to neutralize our bigs, or at least frustrate them, and the guards to take advantage of our on-ball defense.

Pitt is/was known as a very solid perimeter defensive team and they got lit up by Wich St off the dribble. Not a good sign, imho.

It will take an all-out effort for us to win. A very good shooting night as well.

Refs need to allow us, especially our bigs to play their dribble game. The moment Elias or Kelly dribbled, the officials couldn't help but blow their whistle, they weren't used to their styles. Either a TO, travel, 3 second, or offensive foul. Than cannot happen again.

Looking at the field, I cannot list more than 2 or 3 teams that is a worse match-up for our Zags, no kidding.

IF we find a way to win, I like our next two games vs Wisc/K-State/Ohio St/etc much MUCH better than this game and not joking about that either.

The Shox are the antithesis type team to us.

man, after reading this I don't feel so good.

Baldwinzag
03-21-2013, 07:28 PM
man, after reading this I don't feel so good.

nah, no worries, i dramatize everything...i let go of pre-game tension on this board, its cathartic for me.

Martin Centre Mad Man
03-21-2013, 07:29 PM
man, after reading this I don't feel so good.

After watching them grind Pitt into the ground, I wasn't feeling so good.

cggonzaga
03-21-2013, 07:42 PM
Wow some of you guys are really drinkiing the WSU koolaid. They aren't that good from what I saw today. Pitt was atrocious today. WSU can't score like Southern. They have no big man even close to Mitchell today. We will dominate underneath and I have a feeling get them into serious foul trouble. I wouldn't think we play worse on Saturday than we did today. Southern was simply awesome offensively today and I just don't see WSU being able to duplicate that. We win by 15.

DixieZag
03-21-2013, 07:45 PM
Man, after reading all this, I am wondering if they will be favored by 14?

I respect Wichita, for sure, but I also watched them all game today and didn't see a team of world beaters that we have to fear more than any other very good tournament team.

They struggled to score 25 in the first half against a Pitt team that was playing like they were in 2 ft of water.

I THINK we will play better. I don't blame their board for not worrying about Harris - Harris was a non-factor today (for some dubious reasons), he will NOT be two games in a row. I am also encouraged that our 3s were falling when needed today, it will give our guys confidence going into Saturday.

Speaking of confidence, I can't remember a game - ever - where I saw E and Kelly give up so many mid-range jumpers at the FT line or so, it was like they were afraid to just turn and shoot, that HAS to change.

I am still more concerned that OUR issues get addressed, more so than I am that Wichita is the single worst match-up for us.

ZagLawGrad
03-21-2013, 07:50 PM
I didn't see any lightning quick Shocker guards in SLC today. I did see a dumb and slow Pitt team.

Kelly and Elias were built to beat teams like Wichita State

LongIslandZagFan
03-21-2013, 07:56 PM
The boys are pushovers if you read the WSU board. Guess the boys shouldn't even show up.

Gonzagasaur
03-21-2013, 08:10 PM
Hey, great board over at the WSU site. One of their posters said ,

"Super stoked for this game. Personally, i feel like the worst case scenario that could have happened did which is gonzaga getting a scare in the first game. No doubt they will be locked in on Saturday. "

I can't help but agree. Truth told, I was really nervous going into this first game against Southern. It's the tournament. We hadn't played in a week. The only thing that was important is we came out, and got the win.

Now, onto WSU. It's a game I think will be a grinder for about 15 minutes, but am confident in the Zags ability to put this one away. If but for the fact that my heart health deteriorates with every nailbiter... Im thinking we win comfortably...

Zags- 83
WSU- 70.

HOOTER
03-21-2013, 09:16 PM
I personally love what happened tonight. They beat a Southern team that came to play, not to mention questionable officiating and a crowd that was less sympathetic than expected. They swam against the current and made it happen. Best be assured they will be ready to battle again this Saturday. We are in good shape.

ZagLawGrad
03-21-2013, 09:18 PM
I personally love what happened tonight. They beat a Southern team that came to play, not to mention questionable officiating and a crowd that was less sympathetic than expected. They swam against the current and made it. Best be assured they will be ready to battle again this Saturday. We are in good shape.

Spot on.

Not a large Shocker crowd at the arena today.

siliconzag
03-21-2013, 10:57 PM
Didn't see Creighton beat them. How did they do it? That may hold the key.

First off, they shot 70% from the field and 50% of three pointers. They have a guy named McDermott that went nuts on them in Omaha, and went cold on them for the MVC Championship. The rest of the team stepped up big when Doug lost his shooting touch in the finals. Creighton's defense has improved incredibly, as has their rebounding. Wichita will not get rattled and they are beasts inside. They play very aggressive defense, and they know how to rebound. The game they lost in Omaha, the Shockers shot >50% themselves.

They are a good team, and anyone who thinks the Zags will have an easy time with them doesn't know MV basketball. It is a fierce league with lots of parity, top to bottom, and horrible homer officiating.

Wichita is a tough match up for the Zags. Those who say the Zags will win in a cake walk are whistlin in the dark.

Sili

Worthington
03-21-2013, 11:15 PM
Didn't see anything that impressed me too much in their game against Pitt. I don't think they exploit our defensive weaknesses very well. The games that we've lost this year have been to teams that shoot the heck out of the ball. 3pt shooting is not a main strength of the Shockers. Plus they've got no one big enough to match up with KO. Key to the game for us will be limiting easy looks and matching their physicality, especially on the boards.

hooter73
03-22-2013, 07:28 AM
Repeat of the WCC tourney. We were rusty after a week off, shook off the rust with an ugly one and now its game on.

I was more worried about southern than the Pitt/WSU 2nd game when the brackets first were announced.

Their bigs are bruisers that are that magic word "athletic" and their guards are very respectable. We play better as a whole though especially now that were back into the flow. Harris better not be afraid to shoot the ball and Bell and Pangos have to be dialed in for 5 threes between the two of them. Need another x factor, whether its Dower or Barham making a couple shots that will keep us ahead.

Worthington
03-22-2013, 02:01 PM
Their fans aren't giving a second though to Elias Harris. I expect they are going to get a rude awakening come Saturday cause there is no way he plays another game like he did on Thursday.

OregonZag5
03-22-2013, 03:15 PM
My Duck children say: Dad breathe deeply and Zags by 12.

cggonzaga
03-22-2013, 03:48 PM
Their bigs are bruisers that are that magic word "athletic"

And are terrible offensively. Have a feeling we get them into foul trouble early.

Sili, I agree the Shockers are tough mentally and physically and play good defense. They simply can't score with us. If we score 70 + the game shouldn't be close. If they can keep it to the high 50's or low 60's it will be a close game. I don't see them being able to do that. Ultimately, if we rebound and make them jump shooters I predict a 15+point win.

Count Shockula
03-22-2013, 04:21 PM
And exactly what WSU player are the fans on this fine forum giving any credit?

WSU's bigs are terrible on offense? Though would be a shock to Carl Hall and Cleanthony Early. Hmmmm

cggonzaga
03-22-2013, 05:28 PM
Like the name Count.

You're right I did forget about Hall down low. He's solid. He did pick up two early fouls against an awful Pitt frontline. For the Shockers sake that can't happen against us.

Early doesn't seem like a post player to me despite being 6'8", correct me if I'm wrong.

Like I said, if the Shockers can keep the score down you'll have a chance. I still don't think you're bigs are anywhere as good as ours. We'll see.

GrizZAG
03-22-2013, 06:00 PM
Interesting viewing the Shockers season and who they play. Correct me if I am wrong but many of their losses were to teams no better than St. Marys or BYU and we won them all.

Losses:
Tennessee 69-60
Evansville 71-67
Indiana St 68-55
UNI 57-52
S Illinois 64-62
Evansville 59-56
Creigton 68-65

They did beat a very good VCU team and others but they played no powerhouse teams really. Pitt was a big win for them.

I like our chances real well. It will be who brings it.

Hoopaholic
03-22-2013, 06:04 PM
Scoring output is key. We will be fine defensively. Guards will need to hold blackout and rebound. Win and come on down to la so I can go to a game

Hoopaholic
03-22-2013, 06:12 PM
Count...what has happened to early the last three reg season games and the two Illinois games? He seems to have trouble against mobile bigs? And some foul trouble limiting his time on the court? Hall on the other hand has been a model of consistency last ten games on offense.

Containing and not letting arm stead go off offensively is the true key to zag defensive success in my book...he seems to be streaky in his in his three point shooting

GeorgiaZagFan
03-22-2013, 08:58 PM
Does Few go to a zone for stretches in this game? I looked at their 3-point averages and they are not good.

down the stretch they were:
Evansville / 4-19
Creighton / 7-21
Missouri State / 4-16
Illinois St. / 5-15
Creighton / 7-21
Pittsburgh / 2-20
-------
that makes a total of 29 for 112 or 26% from 3-point for their last 6 games...

MickMick
03-22-2013, 09:10 PM
Strangely enough, if GU were to pursue the "finesse" route, I think they would still win.

You are going to see some defensive intensity in this game, at some expense of offensive production. Probably an increase in turnovers if the Zags do what I want them to do....run. High risk, high reward. I like the upside.

What is the 1st thing you hear from opposing WCC coaches?

"We have to keep them out of their transition game"

So if WSU is full of brutes, let's see them run a little at altitude.

This is a game where I believe GU should speed up the tempo. Olynyk runs the floor like a deer. Harris can bring it up if all the guards are occupied. Let's see if their four can keep up from the perimeter if Harris sees a lane. Especially in transition.

How often have we seen KO or EH with spectacular "trailers", in the transition game?

Then there is Pangos and Bell and their transition threes. Often from an assist from each other. They just seem to find the mojo at times, after a good run down the court.

Let's see another 20' bounce pass from Stockton to Olynyk followed by a delightful dunk and enough coolness to inspire the sour ####, Gotlieb, to gush. All from transition.


The more I think about it, the more I believe. Make them beat us with something other than what they are planning on or what their strength is. The Zags could even run Edi for a few minutes if it means robbing their big guys of a little more oxygen. The Zags do, after all, have a track record of playing up to 9/10 deep.

I'm on with the "finesse" game.

Zagger
03-22-2013, 09:31 PM
After watching them grind Pitt into the ground, I wasn't feeling so good.

It's the teams that will be playing the Zags after they've kicked Wichita's butt that aren't going to feel so good. Saturday's the day the Zags rock SLC! The time is RIPE for it - I can hardly wait! :drool:
Go Zags!

Zagger
03-22-2013, 09:38 PM
losing to Wichita is how this Zag season is going to end!
Hell NO!
:argh:
GO ZAGS! Rock SLC!

Bocco
03-22-2013, 09:42 PM
Does anyone think losing to Wichita is how this Zag season is going to end!
Hell NO!
:argh:
GO ZAGS! Rock SLC!

Not if you are a Zag fan...on the other hand the national Zag haters are drooling with anticipation

CdAZagFan
03-22-2013, 09:49 PM
losing to Wichita is how this Zag season is going to end!
Hell NO!
:argh:
GO ZAGS! Rock SLC!

Dick Vitale does... Hope he eats a lot of crow tomorrow!

maynard g krebs
03-22-2013, 11:27 PM
I watch the Ducks a lot, so I'm pretty familiar w/ Armstead. Clever, savvy and skilled, but average quickness imo; far from lightning. I think Bell is quicker.

Zags11
03-23-2013, 01:16 AM
So nervoous. Lost a little confidence after 1st gm. I believe in this squad tho and believe its magical season. An west bracket seems like the stars are aligning just like top 5 teams crumbled for us to be #1.

Lets advance.