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zag4ever
03-21-2013, 03:20 PM
I felt like the officials were posses by the spirit of Dave Libbey. Kelly got call for blocking for his third foul, but it sure looked that he was set.Going down the floor after the free throws and Kelly driving to the basket and the one official calls a foul as if it was going to be an defensive foul and then defers to the second official after he was the one to call the foul.:vomit-smiley-007:

P. S. I know all about Dave Libbey supposedly being a great official and being head of WCC officials,but I saw many a game were he thought the teams and fans were where to see him "perform.":doh:

burgesszag
03-21-2013, 03:50 PM
We Zagfans tout ourselves as being rational, respectful, and very knowledgeable
about the team and game we love...I just finished reading the comments made by we Zags while the game was in process...We don't sound any different than
the boorish bloggers who whine, blame, and backbite for San Francisco, Loyola, BYU, etc...K. Pangos almost tore the left arm off a shooter in last minute with only a 4 point lead that was ignored by these horrible refs...
Blaming officials and commentators for an uninspired effort is not the Zagway.
We are better than that...Beat the Shockers

mihalevich
03-21-2013, 03:54 PM
I dont like to harp on refs as they usually miss some calls...however did anyone else have the feeling that about the 6 minute mark the refs were going out of way for Southern? maybe trying to be part of the whole 16 vs 1 excitement?

specifically,

-about 5 minute mark where KO got his shot blocked and the southern player tried to save it...sure looked like he had foot on baseline and the reaction of zag players at end of bench which were inline with baseline also shows it could have been bad call...and then on the fast break Southern had after block it sure looked like ball didnt go off harris

-about 3 minute mark when southern player got bailed out on long jumper..no contact...

-KO 3rd and 4th fouls were close..both were block/charge calls..but more than the calls were just the body language of one ref in particular who seemed to be motivated by crowd and 16 vs 1 seed excitement..he even overruled the other ref..

-seemed like Stockton had some bogus calls but same calls weren't called at other end..

Also, Few usually doesnt complain a lot but sure seemed he had a problem with a lot more calls than usual..especially late

sittingon50
03-21-2013, 03:56 PM
Didn't favor one team or the other, IMHO. Just wildly inconsistent.

Saxon_zag
03-21-2013, 03:57 PM
We Zagfans tout ourselves as being rational, respectful, and very knowledgeable
about the team and game we love...I just finished reading the comments made by we Zags while the game was in process...We don't sound any different than
the boorish bloggers who whine, blame, and backbite for San Francisco, Loyola, BYU, etc...K. Pangos almost tore the left arm off a shooter in last minute with only a 4 point lead that was ignored by these horrible refs...
Blaming officials and commentators for an uninspired effort is not the Zagway.
We are better than that...Beat the Shockers

There was an effort to manufacture a closer finish than it needed to be. YEs that pangos foul at the end was the one no call that went in our favor. The sequence with the 2 KO fouls and the Phantom call on Bell says it all. Watch it back and tell me there wasn't a focused effort to give the jags some calls.

No one is blaming the commentators they are just point out how bad Doug "Hey wheres my credit card" Gottlieb is at his job

NEC26
03-21-2013, 03:59 PM
I could see them calling Kelly for a block but it should have been a block on the other end as well as both players were sliding. Also Bell did not travel and they were sure quick to call those on us I thought.

Edit: the first half block on Harris was a foul as well but Pangos got away with one at the end.

Mantua
03-21-2013, 04:00 PM
We Zagfans tout ourselves as being rational, respectful, and very knowledgeable
about the team and game we love...I just finished reading the comments made by we Zags while the game was in process...We don't sound any different than
the boorish bloggers who whine, blame, and backbite for San Francisco, Loyola, BYU, etc...K. Pangos almost tore the left arm off a shooter in last minute with only a 4 point lead that was ignored by these horrible refs...
Blaming officials and commentators for an uninspired effort is not the Zagway.
We are better than that...Beat the Shockers

I usually don't whine about the reffing. Today's game showed us some kind of vintage reffing I've never seen before and it clearly confused our players. I think that there are many who agree. When so much is on the line, some fans need a safe place to vent and check reality. Yes, it's bad form. Fans in the stands were booing some calls and that's bad form too. We can't be held to such high standards all the time. I'm happy to apologise for my bad behaviour today. Sorry.:rolleyes:

Birddog
03-21-2013, 04:02 PM
When Kelly got called for the block Gottlieb said yep, good call he was sliding a little to the side. I swear that in the earlier game he said just the opposite, but I could be losing it too.

haMarlin
03-21-2013, 04:02 PM
I agree the refs were terrible and missed a ton of calls! Kelly's blocking foul was a blocking foul. Gary didnt travel. Kevin should have been called for reaching in at the end, but there were a dozen other reach ins and fouls that also should have been called. The Refs poor noncalls effected the flow and the momentum of the game. When evaluating the issue by itself, the refs sucked today.

I think we can be honest and logical when evaluating poor calls, without being called "whiners" and "cry babies". Name calling is an easy way to avoid a debate, while still claiming victory.

gobroncsgozags
03-21-2013, 04:07 PM
The refs did their best to take away our advantage from the beginning. I couldn't believe all of the "blocks" down low. Our guys couldn't even get down there with all of the non-calls and unfortunately stopped bothering for a chunk of the game.

Maybe people should be above complaining about the refs (maybe) but that doesn't make them any less inept.

mihalevich
03-21-2013, 04:10 PM
I have no problem with calls for a particular game going against Zags
for whatever reason...those things happen...My only point in bringing up
refs for this game is that it seemed like for last 7 minutes 1 ref in particular but also as a group
the refs were trying to help manufacturer a 16 vs 1 upset....didnt really notice until the last 7 minutes though..until then I thought they decent..(almost in line with the crowd getting into it)

PeninsulaDog
03-21-2013, 04:14 PM
Zags should have had at least ten more freethrows in that game. There were so many no-calls in the first half, particularly on Kelly and Elias, that it was unbelievable. It's clear Southern's game defensive plan was to play extremely physically in the interior -- the problem is, they really weren't held accountable and were allowed to foul away with impunity. It's really hard to make offensive adjustments when you run up against that kind of officiating. You want to keep feeding the post, but if you are relentlessly hammered, but don't get the calls, you have to either play through the contact, or rely on perimeter offense. Fortunately, Kelly found a way to play through the contact. I don't want to diminish Southern's effort by b*tching about the officiating -- they played great, and hit lots of tough shots. I just don't think the game should have been that close. I've been trying to find out who the officials were for today's game. Anyone know? It would be interesting to know what conference(s) they're from.

mihalevich
03-21-2013, 04:15 PM
We Zagfans tout ourselves as being rational, respectful, and very knowledgeable
about the team and game we love...I just finished reading the comments made by we Zags while the game was in process...We don't sound any different than
the boorish bloggers who whine, blame, and backbite for San Francisco, Loyola, BYU, etc...K. Pangos almost tore the left arm off a shooter in last minute with only a 4 point lead that was ignored by these horrible refs...
Blaming officials and commentators for an uninspired effort is not the Zagway.
We are better than that...Beat the Shockers

Oh please...this is a random message board....we're not on national TV speaking on the CBS halftime show....don't take things so serious...

gamagin
03-21-2013, 04:16 PM
especially against EH. and probably half the time against KO. You can't knock a guys hat off and not touch him.

Ko's headband went flying at least 3 times that I recall. It wasn't divine intervention. there was contact. to the head. That's a foul anywhere.

maynard g krebs
03-21-2013, 04:18 PM
There was an effort to manufacture a closer finish than it needed to be.

Agree. Wish I could believe this stuff is honest, but it often defies credibility. 8 Blocked shots my a$$.

23zagmd
03-21-2013, 04:18 PM
IMO....they aren't even worth discussing! they are SO hard to call and called so wildly inconsistent you might as well close your eyes and pray they go your way.

Very, very, few of them are cut and dry.

Time to move on.

mihalevich
03-21-2013, 04:21 PM
We Zagfans tout ourselves as being rational, respectful, and very knowledgeable
about the team and game we love...I just finished reading the comments made by we Zags while the game was in process...We don't sound any different than
the boorish bloggers who whine, blame, and backbite for San Francisco, Loyola, BYU, etc...K. Pangos almost tore the left arm off a shooter in last minute with only a 4 point lead that was ignored by these horrible refs...
Blaming officials and commentators for an uninspired effort is not the Zagway.
We are better than that...Beat the Shockers


especially against EH. and probably half the time against KO. You can't knock a guys hat off and not touch him.

Ko's headband went flying at least 3 times that I recall. It wasn't divine intervention. there was contact. to the head. That's a foul anywhere.

I have to disagree...that headband is more like dental floss...a door being opened in the arena could blow that thing off

gobroncsgozags
03-21-2013, 04:24 PM
I hate to be too dramatic, but the more I watch college basketball, the more I get this strange feeling of corruption. There is too much money to be had out there. Now in this case, I am hoping they just suck. But, can you imagine the storyline? Again too many hits on the websites, too many people would tune in, etc. if it happened for me to shake the thought.

NEC26
03-21-2013, 04:32 PM
I forgot about the terrible foul called on Bell on a jacked up desperation heave that Bell never even touched. that was definitely an awful call. Especially after getting called earlier when the shooter kicked out his legs for a three and 1.

mihalevich
03-21-2013, 04:49 PM
Zags should have had at least ten more freethrows in that game. There were so many no-calls in the first half, particularly on Kelly and Elias, that it was unbelievable. It's clear Southern's game defensive plan was to play extremely physically in the interior -- the problem is, they really weren't held accountable and were allowed to foul away with impunity. It's really hard to make offensive adjustments when you run up against that kind of officiating. You want to keep feeding the post, but if you are relentlessly hammered, but don't get the calls, you have to either play through the contact, or rely on perimeter offense. Fortunately, Kelly found a way to play through the contact. I don't want to diminish Southern's effort by b*tching about the officiating -- they played great, and hit lots of tough shots. I just don't think the game should have been that close. I've been trying to find out who the officials were for today's game. Anyone know? It would be interesting to know what conference(s) they're from.

the bigger black ref was ted valentine from big 10...he has been reffing forever and always does big games...loves the spotlight and dramatic call

GeorgiaZagFan
03-21-2013, 04:52 PM
I truly thought ONE ref in particular had an agenda against the Zags ...seemed EVERY close call went Southern's way when he was involved...

gobroncsgozags
03-21-2013, 04:53 PM
I truly thought ONE ref in particular had an agenda against the Zags ...seemed EVERY close call went Southern's way when he was involved...

Was that the guy to who came in to go against the blocking call being made?

HOOTER
03-21-2013, 05:04 PM
8 Blocked shots my a$$.

I'll give them a couple, but most of those were blatant fouls that were not only ignored by the refs, but completely ignored by the moronic announcers on the replays.

jpn17
03-21-2013, 05:08 PM
The refs wanted this upset. It was a pathetic and disgusting display of officiating. Can't really say much more than that. And yet Gonzaga still pulled off the win. Hard to do that against anyone when its 5 vs 8.

Keep winning Gonzaga. That's all that matters.

Bushman
03-21-2013, 05:10 PM
Zags should have had at least ten more freethrows in that game. There were so many no-calls in the first half, particularly on Kelly and Elias, that it was unbelievable. It's clear Southern's game defensive plan was to play extremely physically in the interior -- the problem is, they really weren't held accountable and were allowed to foul away with impunity. It's really hard to make offensive adjustments when you run up against that kind of officiating. You want to keep feeding the post, but if you are relentlessly hammered, but don't get the calls, you have to either play through the contact, or rely on perimeter offense. Fortunately, Kelly found a way to play through the contact. I don't want to diminish Southern's effort by b*tching about the officiating -- they played great, and hit lots of tough shots. I just don't think the game should have been that close. I've been trying to find out who the officials were for today's game. Anyone know? It would be interesting to know what conference(s) they're from.

Thank you!

zagray
03-21-2013, 05:34 PM
I really think the NCAA tries to create storylines. Davidson a 10 seed playing the 7 seed Zags in their backyard is an example. Its about ratings and cold hard cash. The Zag Southern game was carefully selected as a potential Great Moment, Pangos clutch three ruined a great story! I was watching the game with a room full of people and there was not one person who didnt think the Refs were doing all they could to create a fantastic finish for Southern. If i were a UNLV fan i would scratch my head wondering why we are playing a twelve seed in their back yard. Its not called March Madness for nothing, people love upsets and the NCAA loves a few in the early rounds too, even if they have to pull a few strings to get them.

caduceus
03-21-2013, 05:43 PM
I'm not normally one to make a big deal over the reffing, but that was the worst officiating (actually non-officiating) I've seen since the Butler game. That was the only other game this year that I felt the officiating affected the outcome of the game.

It's the common opinion that one shouldn't berate the refs because they don't affect the outcome of the game. "Don't rag on the refs, it makes us look bad." We all want to be good sports, but there are times when the reffing CAN and DOES affect the outcome, and sometimes it appears just too damn nefarious to be a human mistake. I do think that some refs will try to make it a close game when there's a big game on the line. The Butler game was a prime example (and I'm not talking about the play at the end of the game -- there were a ton of calls that went Butler's way in that game).

I think one should speak up when the calls are egregious. It's not sour grapes or being a poor sport at all in those instances.

zagcheer78
03-21-2013, 06:10 PM
I'm not normally one to make a big deal over the reffing, but that was the worst officiating (actually non-officiating) I've seen since the Butler game. That was the only other game this year that I felt the officiating affected the outcome of the game.

It's the common opinion that one shouldn't berate the refs because they don't affect the outcome of the game. "Don't rag on the refs, it makes us look bad." We all want to be good sports, but there are times when the reffing CAN and DOES affect the outcome, and sometimes it appears just too damn nefarious to be a human mistake. I do think that some refs will try to make it a close game when there's a big game on the line. The Butler game was a prime example (and I'm not talking about the play at the end of the game -- there were a ton of calls that went Butler's way in that game).

I think one should speak up when the calls are egregious. It's not sour grapes or being a poor sport at all in those instances.

Amen. It is just wrong when officials manipulate the momentum, direction that a game is going for some personal agenda. Think what kind of criticism our program would have to endure if we would have lost this game.

There are times I think that Gonzaga is tolerated by the powers that be and that if we were to fade away, there would not be any tears shed. I am tired of the ESPN/sports casters grudgingly giving us credit and seeming delighted to diminish our teams accomplishments.

Rio Runner
03-21-2013, 06:15 PM
Southern took more threes than us AND were awarded more toal free throws? Meanwhile we pounded the ball inside (35 attempted 2 pt FGA v. Southern attempted 23 2 pt FG) and WE get called for 16 fouls while they get called for 10? Garbage.

These referees did an abysmal job. Half of Southern's 8 "blocks" were hacks on Olynyk and Harris.

maynard g krebs
03-21-2013, 06:17 PM
I really think the NCAA tries to create storylines. Davidson a 10 seed playing the 7 seed Zags in their backyard is an example. Its about ratings and cold hard cash. The Zag Southern game was carefully selected as a potential Great Moment, Pango's clutch three ruined a great story! I was watching the game with a room full of people and there was not one person who didnt think the Refs were doing all they could to create a fantastic finish for Southern. If i were a UNLV fan i would scratch my head wondering why we are playing a twelve seed in their back yard. Its not called March Madness for nothing, people love upsets and the NCAA loves a few in the early rounds too, even if they have pull a few strings to get them.

Bingo. It's all theater. But if you like basketball, what you gonna do? Games like today's make me consider not watching any more, but I've been saying that for like 20 years and still here.

DixieZag
03-21-2013, 07:23 PM
I thought the early non-calls on the so called blocks were outrageous but didn't think all that much of it.

The foul on the air balled 3 got me out of my seat yelling - - the whistle wasn't even blown until the ball landed out of bounds, replay showed no contact at all and THAT wasn't even really discussed.

It was the "charge" on Olynick that nearly cost us our season. The ref who called the charge overruled the official who actually blew the whistle. That was the worst, most forced call I have seen in a long time. At worst it is a no call, but a foul against Kelly? His fourth?

Tell me how Gary travelled? Watched the replay 3 times and still didn't see it and neither did the announcers who moved on quickly.

I am so glad we got through it. Ironically, the terrible officiating does a disservice to Southern, also. Southern played as well as a 10 seed. There is NO question in my mind that Southern beats Pitt today.

OK, now I can move on and HOPE that it doesn't come up again.

NEC26
03-21-2013, 07:31 PM
Yeah there really were some awful calls in that game especially considering the mugging that was allowed on the GU bigs underneath. It just seemed that in that stretch at the end there were some weird calls all going Southerns way.

jwalk
03-21-2013, 08:08 PM
The mugging of Elias down low really took him out of his game. He was tentative to take the ball to the hoop or try to go up for a dunk after the first 10 minutes of mugging. The officiating can have an impact on one players thought process, thus, changing the outcome of a game.

zag69
03-21-2013, 08:44 PM
Just the refs pouring a little Southern Comfort.

jpn17
03-21-2013, 08:57 PM
I posted this in another thread (http://www.guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?t=45403), but I'll post it here as well seeing as this thread is focused only on the refs.


Two of the refs have officiated SWAC games this season. Honestly can't say I'm surprised given how they called the game. Don't even have a clue how the NCAA can allow that. Shameful.

Edit: Looking into it even further, both Valentine and Barker reffed 3 Southern games apiece this season. Wow...

Seems like a conflict of interest to me. Again I ask, how did the NCAA let that happen?

Zageist
03-21-2013, 09:45 PM
Didn't favor one team or the other, IMHO. Just wildly inconsistent.

Absolutely. Also, winners shouldn't ##### about the officiating. I don't care what a W looks like, it's always better than an L.

TheGonzagaFactor
03-21-2013, 10:33 PM
This game was an attempted fix. I'm just glad we got out of there and advanced. Some of those calls were beyond bad judgement.

GrizZAG
03-21-2013, 10:34 PM
Is it possible we get these same refs or some of them for the WS game? Or do they rotate these guys or something?

CDC84
03-21-2013, 10:37 PM
Ted Valentine is a legend in his own mind. I have never seen an official who is so poor work so many important games.

MJ777
03-21-2013, 10:54 PM
At least the Zags got a break with 39 seconds left when they didn't call KP for the foul when he tried to tear off the Kid President's arm.

Zag79
03-22-2013, 12:52 AM
Zags should have had at least ten more freethrows in that game. There were so many no-calls in the first half, particularly on Kelly and Elias, that it was unbelievable. It's clear Southern's game defensive plan was to play extremely physically in the interior -- the problem is, they really weren't held accountable and were allowed to foul away with impunity. It's really hard to make offensive adjustments when you run up against that kind of officiating. You want to keep feeding the post, but if you are relentlessly hammered, but don't get the calls, you have to either play through the contact, or rely on perimeter offense. Fortunately, Kelly found a way to play through the contact. I don't want to diminish Southern's effort by b*tching about the officiating -- they played great, and hit lots of tough shots. I just don't think the game should have been that close. I've been trying to find out who the officials were for today's game. Anyone know? It would be interesting to know what conference(s) they're from.

Nail meet head, I completely agree!

Birddog
03-22-2013, 03:30 AM
Southern took more threes than us AND were awarded more toal free throws? Meanwhile we pounded the ball inside (35 attempted 2 pt FGA v. Southern attempted 23 2 pt FG) and WE get called for 16 fouls while they get called for 10? Garbage.

These referees did an abysmal job. Half of Southern's 8 "blocks" were hacks on Olynyk and Harris.
Some of the calls were awful, the non-calls were even worse.

The refs are evaluated for their performance in a game before being selected to move on to the next game. Loser out just like the teams.

77Zag
03-22-2013, 07:56 AM
Just the refs pouring a little Southern Comfort.
Drinking a bit of it as well.

Now I can comment...
I had some of that stuff one time and it was one and done for me...that sweet juice was a killer, on to the porcelain God for me....

Go Zags - Beat Shockers!!

TexasZagFan
03-22-2013, 08:01 AM
Those refs were the spawn of Dan Niksich. :eek:

zaguarxj
03-22-2013, 08:11 AM
the bigger black ref was ted valentine from big 10...he has been reffing forever and always does big games...loves the spotlight and dramatic callI re-watched the game last night and this morning. Watch the way that guy puffs out his chest after he makes a ridiculous call. Definitely the Dave Libbey school of reffing, where the game is just a stage for the true stars - the refs. I don't see how the NCAA could review his performance and still allow him to ref another tourney game. Ever.

bartruff1
03-22-2013, 08:15 AM
It just isn't fair that these super intelligent all powerful gnomes are able to plan and control events involving hundreds of people and not be exposed...it just isn't fair.

caduceus
03-22-2013, 08:23 AM
http://i.imgur.com/ysOTrl6.png

Hmmm....

cjm720
03-22-2013, 08:35 AM
No excuses.

Edited to add, we got the biggest break in the with the no call on Pangos slap of the Southern kid driving to the hoop. Really lucky there.

Arneson
03-22-2013, 09:03 AM
Not only were there bad calls/no calls, but Gottlieb failed to ever mention any of the ones that favored Gonzaga. The ONE time they should have called one on Gonzaga but didn't, he was all over it.

Bushman
03-22-2013, 09:37 AM
Not only were there bad calls/no calls, but Gottlieb failed to ever mention any of the ones that favored Gonzaga. The ONE time they should have called one on Gonzaga but didn't, he was all over it.

So true. Even my lovely wife screamed a couple of times, especially on those "blocks" on our bigs. I have reffed bball at the provincial level and we were told how to call games. I wonder if these refs were told to let them play, especially in the paint. Unfortunately, this favors the less talented team.

GeorgiaZagFan
03-22-2013, 10:16 AM
Yeah there really were some awful calls in that game especially considering the mugging that was allowed on the GU bigs underneath. It just seemed that in that stretch at the end there were some weird calls all going Southerns way.

(re-post from another thread)
Zags had an 11 point lead with 9:34 to go in the game. From that point on the Zags are called for 5 fouls...AND Southern NONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (I don't count the intentional one with 14 seconds left) Southern shoots 8 FT's and the Zags NONE (again not counting the intentional at the end) Something was wrong with that picture!!!!

GeorgiaZagFan
03-22-2013, 10:19 AM
At least the Zags got a break with 39 seconds left when they didn't call KP for the foul when he tried to tear off the Kid President's arm.

maybe a moment of a "guilty conscience" on the part of the refs ...as I like to yell at baseball games ..."we accept Visa, Mastercard, and MAKE-UP CALLS!!!!!" :)

BJZags
03-22-2013, 10:33 AM
I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. The writer for my local rag felt the Shockers got screwed:

"Worst officiating: This game was a mess throughout. Gonzaga got the benefit of several calls down the stretch that could've turned the outcome."

And this guy the day before had picked GU to win the National Title.

Oh, and I agree with him that the Ducks have the best uniforms!

http://blog.pennlive.com/davidjones/2013/03/harvard_new_mexico_ncaa_tourna.html

UberZagFan
03-22-2013, 11:21 AM
That dude is nuts. Yes, the Pangos ripping the guy's arm off was a blown call. But what other calls went GU's way? As stated above, in the last 10 minutes Southern was called for ZERO fouls until the intentional foul with 14 seconds left. All out of bounds calls that were close (some that were not so close) went to Southern. And then the travel call.

But agree, it was the worst officiated game of the day, if not season.

CDC84
03-22-2013, 11:40 AM
It is common knowledge that the refs tend to not call a lot of fouls during the "second round" games on Thursday and Friday. The refs are instructed by the NCAA to keep the games moving because of TV and the fact that there are four games to be played at each of the venues. I think there have been studies done which have proven that less fouls tend to be called on these tournament days than on any other days of the tournament.

I would expect more conventional officiating on Saturday.

UberZagFan
03-22-2013, 12:07 PM
One other thing: what's the deal with giving Southern a free timeout by going to the monitor for 2-3 minutes...surprised the refs didn't tell CBS to go ahead and go to a commercial because we'll be a while. When the refs go to the monitor without one of the teams calling a TO, then the players should have to remain on the floor in the key and the coaches should have to stay on the bench.

RenoZag
03-22-2013, 12:12 PM
Uber, CDC made a similar (and persuasive) argument for just such a rule late yesterday:

http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?t=45425

You're right. But I doubt enough coaches would be willing to change the rule, though they should consider it.

upan8th
03-22-2013, 02:28 PM
Tweet during game from @AaronRodgers: "No rooting interest besides my bracket choice, but wow the reffing in this Southern v Gonzaga game is just awful #replacementrefs"