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View Full Version : Change the Argument: Not Who You Beat But Who You Lost Too



Zag4Hire
02-28-2013, 06:10 AM
(Excuse the Misspelling in the Title)

While watching the end of TCU-OSU yesterday, the two announcers were having a bit of a disagreement regarding all things Gonzaga. One guy kept saying they have played the schedule in front of them, beat some very solid teams along the way, and continue to win (His conclusion is if GU wins out, they should be a #1 seed and be #1 in the AP). His partner argued it is different to play BCS teams from time-to-time instead a night-in/night-out basis and if GU played in a BCS conferecne, they would be down there with the rest of the pack.

My whole problem with certain arguments is that it doesn't rely on reality. If Gonzaga played in a BCS conference? Well they don't. Gonzaga consistently goes out of there to play tough games and can only do what their schedule dictates. Also instead of arguing who each team has beat, let's just look at the Top 10 from a RPI standpoint.

* Gonzaga is 5-0 vs RPI 51-100; Duke, New Mexico, Miami, and Louiville have 1 loss; Florida has 2.

* Gonzaga is 3-0 vs RPI 101-150; Miami and Georgetown have 1 loss

* Gonzaga is 7-0 vs RPI 151-200; Miami and Michigan have 1 loss

* Gonzaga is 6-0 vs RPI 200+; Kansas has 1 loss

Also I don't think Gonzaga is getting their just due. Playing a conference opponent who knows your personnel and schemes. A team with no hopes of postseason dreams circles the game when GU comes to town and leaves everything on the floor. This is no easy task as some of the teams are almost reassured they can climb back up in the rankings if they lose; some people are even saying the loss doesn't hurt Indiana and should still remain #1 overall. However, if Gonzaga losses, I wouldn't be surprised if they went all the way to #10 and the hopes of getting a #1 are dashed and a #2 seed may be in jeopardy.

Well, just a discussion board topic. The moral of the story: Be determined today, play hard, and play your game. Stay hungry and the rest will take care of itself.

Ekrub
02-28-2013, 06:58 AM
I want that #1 seed and #1 poll but for some reason, I kind of don't care. This GU team has "deep deep march run" (as in NC) written all over them. They'll take care of business and prove all the doubters wrong. I can feel it. I know I'm a homer, but I've watched a lot of basketball this season as well. I have faith in this team.

Bogozags
02-28-2013, 07:31 AM
(Excuse the Misspelling in the Title)

While watching the end of TCU-OSU yesterday, the two announcers were having a bit of a disagreement regarding all things Gonzaga. One guy kept saying they have played the schedule in front of them, beat some very solid teams along the way, and continue to win (His conclusion is if GU wins out, they should be a #1 seed and be #1 in the AP). His partner argued it is different to play BCS teams from time-to-time instead a night-in/night-out basis and if GU played in a BCS conferecne, they would be down there with the rest of the pack.

My whole problem with certain arguments is that it doesn't rely on reality. If Gonzaga played in a BCS conference? Well they don't. Gonzaga consistently goes out of there to play tough games and can only do what their schedule dictates. Also instead of arguing who each team has beat, let's just look at the Top 10 from a RPI standpoint.

* Gonzaga is 5-0 vs RPI 51-100; Duke, New Mexico, Miami, and Louiville have 1 loss; Florida has 2.

* Gonzaga is 3-0 vs RPI 101-150; Miami and Georgetown have 1 loss

* Gonzaga is 7-0 vs RPI 151-200; Miami and Michigan have 1 loss

* Gonzaga is 6-0 vs RPI 200+; Kansas has 1 loss

Also I don't think Gonzaga is getting their just due. Playing a conference opponent who knows your personnel and schemes. A team with no hopes of postseason dreams circles the game when GU comes to town and leaves everything on the floor. This is no easy task as some of the teams are almost reassured they can climb back up in the rankings if they lose; some people are even saying the loss doesn't hurt Indiana and should still remain #1 overall. However, if Gonzaga losses, I wouldn't be surprised if they went all the way to #10 and the hopes of getting a #1 are dashed and a #2 seed may be in jeopardy.

Well, just a discussion board topic. The moral of the story: Be determined today, play hard, and play your game. Stay hungry and the rest will take care of itself.



I really like your argument to shift from whom/who have you beaten to who/whom have you lost. We as GU fans KNOW that GU has an exceptional team and "IF" we are (and I really feel we will be) victorious tonight in a very hostile environment, then with other Top Ten teams losing, we definitely deserve to be ranked #1. The argument you use is the criteria which should be the foundation of all the arguments determining ranking and seeding...IMO.

IN addition, I cannot agree with the second part of your argument as all highly ranked teams visiting lower/unbanked teams are all motivated to play their best game as evidenced by loses by both IU and UM theses last two days. I think that to date we have been able to avoid these losses, which validates the first part of your argument even more.

I hope that the officiating is consistent and that luck is evenly distributed tonight. If that is the case then our talent will overwhelm our opponent.

GO ZAGS!

CDC84
02-28-2013, 09:03 AM
IN addition, I cannot agree with the second part of your argument as all highly ranked teams visiting lower/unbanked teams are all motivated to play their best game as evidenced by loses by both IU and UM theses last two days. I think that to date we have been able to avoid these losses, which validates the first part of your argument even more.

I don't think any team in the country has more of bulls eye on their back within league than Gonzaga. Not even Duke within the ACC. It's not just because of GU's national ranking and their brand name. It's because of how much Gonzaga has totally dominated the WCC since Few took over, and how few opportunities teams like Pepperdine and USF have to face highly ranked teams on their home floors. If you're Penn State within the Big 10, you get the chance to knock off top teams on a regular basis. With WCC teams, you get a home game vs. Gonzaga, and that's pretty much it. I think those teams are more motivated to play GU than Penn State was motivated last night when they played Michigan. They simply have more to play for.

I think who you beat and who you lose to both matter. Many things go into the selection of teams and their seeds when it comes to the NCAA tourney. It's not a simple process.

ZenZag
02-28-2013, 09:31 AM
Something else which seems to keep getting lost in this, and something Coach Few hammers on all the time.....no matter how weak your opponent may be, or be perceived to be, in-conference road games are always TOUGH. Right Michigan?? Weak conference or not, to be at 14-0 in our conference play is a significant indicator of how mentally tough this team is, how well they play as a team week in and week out, and how well they maintain focus. No question in my mind that, if they win out this week, they absolutely have EARNED that #1 spot in the polls.

CB4
02-28-2013, 09:38 AM
I don't think who you lost to is really a good indicator. See Miami, Gonzaga (2008) (Portland State). Bad games happen. The fact of the matter is there's no perfect way of measuring teams relative to one another other. Gonzaga will always get the short end of the stick and there's no getting around that.

Zag4Hire
02-28-2013, 10:26 AM
I don't think who you lost to is really a good indicator. See Miami, Gonzaga (2008) (Portland State). Bad games happen. The fact of the matter is there's no perfect way of measuring teams relative to one another other. Gonzaga will always get the short end of the stick and there's no getting around that.

Right it just reiterates when someone tries to fault, they have the argument suit their opinion. I was just reiterating there are different contexts to how teams should be viewed. True, WCC competition isn't up to par with most BCS conferences (Pac-12 is debatable lol) but Gonzaga hasn't lost. They can't be faulted for something they haven't done and at the end of the day, it is about winning. I get it, eye of the beholder, and some people just can't be convinced otherwise.