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sittingon50
02-18-2013, 06:27 PM
(to me, anyway)

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8960358/pac-12-reprimands-california-golden-bears-coach-mike-montgomery-shoving-player

awberke
02-18-2013, 06:47 PM
Mark Few's equivalent:

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/101/1013571.jpg

HOOTER
02-18-2013, 07:07 PM
Meh...no big deal IMO.

awberke
02-18-2013, 07:11 PM
Meh...no big deal IMO.

Uh, what? Would you have the same reaction if your child(real or hypothetical) was pushed by their teacher?

bartruff1
02-18-2013, 07:20 PM
I'm shocked...after nearly 40 years of coaching...that is sad...

BTB
02-18-2013, 07:23 PM
Uh, what? Would you have the same reaction if your child(real or hypothetical) was pushed by their teacher?

If my hypothetical son was being lazy I would want someone to kick his butt into gear! Nobody would bat an eyelash if this was a football coach, what's the difference?

former1dog
02-18-2013, 07:28 PM
Uh, what? Would you have the same reaction if your child(real or hypothetical) was pushed by their teacher?

Mr. Crabbe (sp?) is a grown man, not a child. When I saw the clip, I was a little concerned for Monty's safety.

Monty apologized, appropriately, for his actions.

soccerdud
02-18-2013, 07:28 PM
i honestly don't mind it at all. the "child" in this case is 6'6" 210lb man, who plays a contact sport at a level just under professional. there was no assault, no abuse, and no physical harm.

jay williams on espn today mentioned that coach K pushed him (physically) more than once, and had no issue with it. now, this doesn't prove it's OK-- but as far as appeals to authority go, you can't do much better than coach K regarding collegiate coaching and the forging of young men and basketball players.

it would be very different if the "victim" was under 18, or was physically overmatched. but this? i have no problem with it whatsoever.

rijman
02-18-2013, 07:38 PM
I'm okay with the end result, the coach didn't hurt the player and he got the intended result, he fired up his player then gave a sincere apology. I have never coached beyond 8 year olds, I understand coaches need to know what motivates a player, some players need to be finessed and others need to be yelled at and challenged. I would be interested to hear the players take on it.

Once and Future Zag
02-18-2013, 07:49 PM
Wow, what a bunch of macho posturing.

CaliforniaZaggin'
02-18-2013, 07:52 PM
Ehhh... the written description of the incident is worse than the video. Monty made a shoving motion and made contact with Crabbe, but it's not like he actually shoved him. During the Fall, somthing worse than this happens on hundreds of football practice fields at high schools and universities all over the country.

soccerdud
02-18-2013, 07:52 PM
Wow, what a bunch of macho posturing.

lol. i'm curious, then. what sort of posturing is this?

former1dog
02-18-2013, 07:59 PM
Wow, what a bunch of macho posturing.

Please inform us of the last sporting event with men/boys you have observed that had a complete absence of "macho posturing". Mine might be my 3 year olds toddler soccer league, but I'm pretty sure the little girl that scored 6 goals against us the last game of the season did a hulk flex after one of her goals.

What Monty did was wrong and he appropriately apologized for it, but your opinion ignores the reality of sporting competition, which is to beat your competition.

GoGU
02-18-2013, 10:51 PM
Mark Few's equivalent:

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/101/1013571.jpg

The patented Mark Few "cold shoulder."

Oregonzagnut
02-19-2013, 12:05 AM
Mark Few's equivalent:

http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/101/1013571.jpg

Someday they will say the "Few Death Stare" is excessive contact. Eye contact.

"It is unacceptable for the coaches to have excessive EYE contact with student-athletes regardless of the circumstances,"

SweetOnionZag
02-19-2013, 03:24 AM
As they say here, "just a Jerry Sloan meet and greet"..........

Once and Future Zag
02-19-2013, 07:28 AM
Please inform us of the last sporting event with men/boys you have observed that had a complete absence of "macho posturing".

I wasn't talking about the athletes.

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 07:35 AM
Meh...no big deal IMO.

Violently putting your hands on a player at ANY level is unacceptable... Just as it is unacceptable to put your hands on a ref or on the coach. Period. End of discussion. If you don't get that... Something is wrong

kclubfounder
02-19-2013, 07:35 AM
Uh, what? Would you have the same reaction if your child(real or hypothetical) was pushed by their teacher?

It wasn't an economics professor, it was a basketball coach.

Big flipping deal!

What if he had just made a huge 3-pointer to take the lead with 3 seconds left and the coach gave him the same shove. Would you be OK with it then? Of course you would.

So it isn't the physicality of the shove, it is the timing of it that bothers people.

This is basketball. A physical sport. An EMOTIONAL sport. The player was lolly-gagging and loafing and a reflection of the entire team that needed a wake-up call.

Guess what? IT WORKED! Cal went on a rampage and won the game after being way down at the point of the "shove".

What is happening to our country? How soft do we need to get?

The hand-wringing and outrage about this is pathetic.

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 07:37 AM
It wasn't an economics professor, it was a basketball coach.

Big flipping deal!

What if he had just made a huge 3-pointer to take the lead with 3 seconds left and the coach gave him the same shove. Would you be OK with it then? Of course you would.

So it isn't the physicality of the shove, it is the timing of it that bothers people.

This is basketball. A physical sport. An EMOTIONAL sport. The player was lolly-gagging and loafing and a reflection of the entire team that needed a wake-up call.

Guess what? IT WORKED! Cal went on a rampage and won the game after being way down at the point of the "shove".

What is happening to our country? How soft do we need to get?

The hand-wringing and outrage about this is pathetic.

Like I said, if you don't get it....there is something wrong. It isn't about being soft. Please explain how an assault by a professor differs from a coach?

kclubfounder
02-19-2013, 07:40 AM
Like I said, if you don't get it....there is something wrong. It isn't about being soft. Please explain how an assault by a professor differs from a coach?

If you don't understand the difference between a classroom and an athletic venue then I suggest you "don't get it".

It was NOT assault. Give me a break.

bartruff1
02-19-2013, 07:42 AM
Violently putting your hands on a player at ANY level is unacceptable... Just as it is unacceptable to put your hands on a ref or on the coach. Period. End of discussion. If you don't get that... Something is wrong....

I might add " putting your hands on a player in anger "....

It was a mistake...certainly out of character for Mike...he knows it and he apologized for it...as far as I am concerned that is over...and I would be amazed if it ever happens again....

I don't see Mark doing it....in fact, I don't recall seeing more than a handful of coaches doing it.

The fact that it worked is complete nonsense... there are more appropriate and more effective ways to motivate a person.

former1dog
02-19-2013, 07:44 AM
Violently putting your hands on a player at ANY level is unacceptable... Just as it is unacceptable to put your hands on a ref or on the coach. Period. End of discussion. If you don't get that... Something is wrong

Context is everything.

It was wrong of Monty to do what he did. He apologized.

But, its also not that big of a deal, because of the context.

Coach Few grabbed Austin Daye's jersey "violently" a few years ago on the sidelines. I'm not sure I recall your reaction to that, but I'm guessing it was benign at best.

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 07:47 AM
If you don't understand the difference between a classroom and an athletic venue then I suggest you "don't get it".

It was NOT assault. Give me a break.

You are right... It not assault... It is actually battery. But location of the battery makes not one iota of difference. Be it on the classroom or the sideline of a sporting event.

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 07:49 AM
Context is everything.

It was wrong of Monty to do what he did. He apologized.

But, its also not that big of a deal, because of the context.

Coach Few grabbed Austin Daye's jersey "violently" a few years ago on the sidelines. I'm not sure I recall your reaction to that, but I'm guessing it was benign at best.

Grabbing a jersey is not the same as a two handed shove to the chest. And if he did, that was wrong as well.

former1dog
02-19-2013, 07:51 AM
Grabbing a jersey is not the same as a two handed shove to the chest. And if he did, that was wrong as well.

Let the parsing begin.

Better yet, lets all join hands and sing Kumbaya and not keep score of the games and lets make sure all the "children" get a trophy after the powder puff game.

We all want our players to "kick ass" and be passionate about winning and competing, but when some of that passion and emotion spills over and a coach screws up, its suddently "battery" or an "assault"? You can't have your cake and eat it, too, LIZF. Lets call it what it is, a mistake, and realize the context in which it happens.

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 07:52 AM
Let the parsing begin.

Better yet, lets all join hands and sing Kumbaya and not keep score of the games and lets make sure all the "children" get a trophy after the game.

How is it parsing... I said what Few did was wrong as well... What if he punched him instead? You still OK with it? Heck, it's on the sidelines... It's a free for all. And it isn't about that. Coach K wins quite well without physical abuse of players.

former1dog
02-19-2013, 07:58 AM
How is it parsing... I said what Few did was wrong as well...

Its parsing because its parsing. We're in agreement by the way, both acts were wrong.

Where we disagree is "how wrong". You're claiming assault or battery. I'm saying its a mistake in the heat of the moment. Coach apologized. No biggie. Lets move on.

ldszagfan
02-19-2013, 07:59 AM
OMG, why didn't he go home and tell his Mommy?

http://i49.tinypic.com/w89nc2.jpg

I hate this about today's world. Everything is 'abuse'. Suck it up. These ain't no baby boys. There are men younger than Crabbe that are making millions in the NBA and we wouldn't be freaking out so much if a coached 'shoved' one of those players.

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 08:01 AM
We all want our players to "kick ass" and be passionate about winning and competing, but when some of that passion and emotion spills over and a coach screws up, its suddently "battery" or an "assault"? You can't have your cake and eat it, too, LIZF. Lets call it what it is, a mistake, and realize the context in which it happens.

yes it is a mistake... But it is still a big deal and it should be. Was it OK that Latrell Sprewell choked PJ? Was that in context? That is the point. It's not about everyone winning. What he did was wrong. It was a mistake. But no bleeping way is it about being soft and give everyone a damn trophy. It was and should be a big deal as it should not be done.

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 08:03 AM
OMG, why didn't he go home and tell his Mommy?

http://i49.tinypic.com/w89nc2.jpg

I hate this about today's world. Everything is 'abuse'. Suck it up. These ain't no baby boys. There are men younger than Crabbe that are making millions in the NBA and we wouldn't be freaking out so much if a coached 'shoved' one of those players.

Hope it's never your kid getting hit by a coach.

former1dog
02-19-2013, 08:08 AM
Was it OK that Latrell Sprewell choked PJ?

Why do you keep asking questions like this?

In logic, its called a straw man.

We agree that Monty made a mistake. He agrees, which is why he apologized.

My point is that context matters when measuring the degree of someones mistake.

Do you disagree that context is a factor in these incidents? Or do you think Monty is a violent guy that shouldn't be coaching? Or Coach Few for that matter for his grabbing of Austin Daye or his public dressing down of the off camera athlete in the documentary last night?

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 08:13 AM
Why do you keep asking questions like this?

In logic, its called a straw man.

We agree that Monty made a mistake. He agrees, which is why he apologized.

My point is that context matters when measuring the degree of someones mistake.

Do you disagree that context is a factor in these incidents? Or do you think Monty is a violent guy that shouldn't be coaching? Or Coach Few for that matter for his grabbing of Austin Daye or his public dressing down of the off camera athlete in the documentary last night?

Both acts qualify as battery. That doesn't make it a straw man argument. They are both on par. In the end context does not matter.

The point I'm making is that it isn't about being soft. It is that it is wrong while people here seem to think it is right as pie. Grabbing a jersey is wrong. Physical contact is wrong... Dressing a player down they way he did is called coaching.

former1dog
02-19-2013, 08:17 AM
In the end context does not matter.
Grabbing a jersey is wrong. Physical contact is wrong...

Following your logic that context doesn't matter (I guess you're an absolutist, glad you're not a judge in a court of law), then I'll expect that you'll demand Coach Few's resignation for laying hands on Austin Daye?

Too extreme? Ok, lets make a big deal out of it! I'm sure you did when it happened, right?


Speaking of context and your prohibition on laying on of hands, what should a coach do if his players get in a fight in practice? Should he call the police and wait the 5 to 10 minutes while the players pummel each other?

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 08:21 AM
Following your logic that context doesn't matter (I guess you're an absolutist, glad you're not a judge in a court of law), then I'll expect that you'll demand Coach Few's resignation for laying hands on Austin Daye?

Where did I ask for Monty's? Good luck finding any post saying that. You'll be looking until the end of time because it doesn't exist.

All I have ever said in this thread is that if someone cannot see that what Monty did was wrong then there is something wrong. I think we can both agree on this.

former1dog
02-19-2013, 08:26 AM
Where did I ask for Monty's? Good luck finding any post saying that. You'll be looking until the end of time because it doesn't exist.

Ok, too extreme. Great!

But we should make a big deal out of it, right?

And you led the charge when Few manhandled Austin Daye, correct?




All I have ever said in this thread is that if someone cannot see that what Monty did was wrong then there is something wrong. I think we can both agree on this.

Now we're on to something. We've already agreed that what Monty did was wrong. He agreed, too. He apologized for it.

The wrinkle is that you're saying its a big deal. In reality, it really not all that big of a deal because of the context of the situation.

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 08:37 AM
Ok, too extreme. Great!

But we should make a big deal out of it, right?

And you led the charge when Few manhandled Austin Daye, correct?




Now we're on to something. We've already agreed that what Monty did was wrong. He agreed, too. He apologized for it.

The wrinkle is that you're saying its a big deal. In reality, it really not all that big of a deal because of the context of the situation.

Which is where we differ. I've been coaching for 10 years... I just don't see the context.

Zag 77
02-19-2013, 08:38 AM
How about coaches that use the "F" word and "S" word and throw in a few godammits? Is that acceptable in this day and age? What if the coach works at a Catholic school?

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 08:43 AM
How about coaches that use the "F" word and "S" word and throw in a few godammits? Is that acceptable in this day and age? What if the coach works at a Catholic school?

Classless... Yes. If it is with young kids... Even more classless.

zagamatic
02-19-2013, 08:50 AM
okay so what's next? Are the coaches going to start getting brought up on assault charges in practice for showing a player how to post up?the amount of contact in this case is less than what goes on in practice. It's ridiculous that this is even a thread. the bottom line is if the player feels like he was wronged somehow then he should file a complaint and the talking heads should have nothing to do with it unless that happens.

former1dog
02-19-2013, 08:51 AM
Which is where we differ. I've been coaching for 10 years... I just don't see the context.

We have a judge or 2 who post regularly here on the board, lets get them to weigh in on context.

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 09:00 AM
okay so what's next? Are the coaches going to start getting brought up on assault charges in practice for showing a player how to post up?the amount of contact in this case is less than what goes on in practice. It's ridiculous that this is even a thread. the bottom line is if the player feels like he was wronged somehow then he should file a complaint and the talking heads should have nothing to do with it unless that happens.

Oh, he was showing how to post up. That makes it better. Here is the funny thing. The guy INVOLVED admitted it was wrong. It's only the people here saying it isn't that makes this a thread.

Zag 77
02-19-2013, 09:03 AM
One has to wonder if Fitz would be allowed to coach nowadays. I have a feeling he probably got in the face of a player physically now and then. I suspect that he probably got a little physical to make his point. He also would use a darn or heck once in awhile.

However, he was witty enough to get some barbs in that would make his point.

BTB
02-19-2013, 09:24 AM
Lets take a look at the scenario:

Player is being lazy.
Coach gives player a little push and yell (that's what it was, look at the video the push was barely strong enough to move the player at all) to fire player up.
Player and team get fired up, dominate rest of game.
Coach gets in trouble for knowing how to motivate his team.

Many people have already pointed out that this coach has no history of violence or a bad attitude or anything like that. Don't you think that he might possible know this player better than all of us do and know how to fire the player up? Clearly he was not trying to hurt the player and clearly the player wasn't a little kid who was going to cry about getting shoved.

Have you ever seen teammates push each other to fire each other up? Maybe in pregame rituals? I have, and I have also pushed teammates to fire them up and been pushed around. Never excessively, never enough to try to cause pain to the other person, only to get each other fired up. It is a part of sports and there is nothing wrong with it. NOBODY WAS TRYING TO HURT ANYBODY AND NOBODY GOT HURT. I don't see any problem

UberZagFan
02-19-2013, 09:30 AM
Is that LIZF on the right and F1D on the left?

http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/85/pissing.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/690/pissing.jpg/)

No, no no. What was Uber thinking. It must be LIZF on the left and F1D on the right. Yup, has to be.

former1dog
02-19-2013, 09:30 AM
Have you ever seen teammates push each other to fire each other up? Maybe in pregame rituals?

This is an excellent point. This happens all the time with our Zags.

What say you powder puff team, assault or battery?

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 10:03 AM
Well I guess I've seen he errors of my ways. I'm sure Monty and the PAC 12 agree.. It's no big deal.

cjm720
02-19-2013, 10:05 AM
Don't see a problem with it...a half shove...to get him motivated.

And I wanted to add something that caught my attention from LizF about what if it was my kid. Well, I would trust the coach enough to enforce discipline how he knows best. if it were my kid, he'd be a grown man and should know how to listen and be coached. I would expect a coach/mentor to help him through his laziness.

americasteam
02-19-2013, 10:15 AM
Verbal abuse is sometimes as bad as physical abuse. (and I don't think a small half shove to the chest is considered physical abuse)

My daughter played in college and she had her coaches telling them in January and February after every game how bad they were (amongst other things) and how they were going to go recruit and find players to replace them. If that isn't enough to "get in your head" than I don't know what is.

mgadfly
02-19-2013, 10:20 AM
Just because something's wrong doesn't make it a big deal. I had a coach pound the top of my shoulder pads in college more than once to motivate me. I didn't appreciate it. Probably the wrong thing for the coach to do. But I don't think the district attorney needed to insert himself into the equation. If you don't get that, I'd suggest there is something wrong.

Speeding is wrong. Forgetting your anniversary is wrong. Murdering is wrong. Where it (motivating a player with unwanted touching) fits on the spectrum really depends on the context. After watching the video and listening to the players response (as well as the coach's apology). Meh, no big deal.

mgadfly
02-19-2013, 10:29 AM
Lets take a look at the scenario:


Coach gives player a little push and yell (that's what it was, look at the video the push was barely strong enough to move the player at all) to fire player up.


The coach should get fired.

Had he properly trained his players the player would have flopped and drawn the foul.

Clearly the coach needs to go.

BTB
02-19-2013, 10:35 AM
The coach should get fired.

Had he properly trained his players the player would have flopped and drawn the foul.

Clearly the coach needs to go.

Hahaha!! Very good point!! :roll::roll:

CDC84
02-19-2013, 10:37 AM
Andy Katz said it best when that Morehead State coach got in trouble....

...you simply can't do this anymore due to the media age we live in. If you lay your hands on a player - for whatever reason (even if it's positive) - it is on youtube, twitter, facebook, espn, cnn etc. almost immediately. You can't get away with it, and whether it is right or wrong, the coach is going to be viewed as guilty by most viewers and outside observers.

soccerdud
02-19-2013, 10:38 AM
Coach K wins quite well without physical abuse of players.

did you read my post? jay williams said on ESPN yesterday that coach k had pushed him, physically, more than once.

what happened was not assault, battery, or abuse by any sane definition. all of those things either cause pain or damage. this did not, nor was it intended to.

what happened was in no way comparable to throwing a punch or choking someone.

not all physical contact is equal. nor is all physical contact innappropriate, much less battery.


oh, and just ftr-- monty only addressed it publicly the next day. in the post game interview he gave no sign of regret. him apologizing is not proof that he agrees with you. it's merely proof that his boss or his boss's boss agrees with you.

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 10:42 AM
You guys are right. It's a big joke.

Crabbe must have thought so as his teammates tried to calm him down practically under the bleachers. I am sure Monty apology was in jest and I'm sure the PAC 12 reprimand means very little.

You are right... There was nothing wrong with it and it was no big deal.

Choke a kid if it properly motivates the him. No big deal.

soccerdud
02-19-2013, 10:49 AM
Choke a kid if it properly motivates the him. No big deal.

i'm pretty sure that i speak for all of us who disagree with you when i say, "we won't be satisfied until the basketball courts run red with the blood of the improperly motivated."

UberZagFan
02-19-2013, 11:04 AM
Did nobody get Uber's "LIZF on the left;F1D on the right" joke? Or was it just not that funny?

cjm720
02-19-2013, 11:07 AM
Did nobody get Uber's "LIZF on the left;F1D on the right" joke? Or was it just not that funny?

It was funny. Is that statue for real? LOL

jazzdelmar
02-19-2013, 11:07 AM
Did nobody get Uber's "LIZF on the left;F1D on the right" joke? Or was it just not that funny?

no, probably distracted by your avatar.....

77Zag
02-19-2013, 11:11 AM
Did nobody get Uber's "LIZF on the left;F1D on the right" joke? Or was it just not that funny?

It was well played. The match is over, game, set and match...

maynard g krebs
02-19-2013, 11:29 AM
Crabbe got pissed off and channeled his anger and played great the rest of the game, but his relationship with his coach will never be the same. That incident will always be in his subconscious.

Public humiliation of a player isn't a good move, even if it works in the short term.

sittingon50
02-19-2013, 11:29 AM
I had a long winded response but managed to lose it before it got posted.

I like Monty & am prone to non-violence with one exception. Someone lays a hand on my family & the real assault begins.

At 60 & out of shape I'm not sure how long the adrenalin will support my efforts, but no one (including me) should lay their hands on my wife/kids in anger.

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 12:05 PM
Crabbe got pissed off and channeled his anger and played great the rest of the game, but his relationship with his coach will never be the same. That incident will always be in his subconscious.

Public humiliation of a player isn't a good move, even if it works in the short term.

Interesting to watch going forward. That relationship is shot IMHO. Would not be shocked if he chooses to transfer... Would not be shocked if he guts it out one more year.

cjm720
02-19-2013, 12:11 PM
"There's no excuse," he said. "I've been doing this 31 years. There's no excuse. I know better. It's totally out of character for me. I think things have changed in terms of how you can deal with kids. There's a heightened sensitivity to these kind of things but that doesn't change it. But there's nothing that makes it right. I was wrong. You have to just acknowledge that and push forward."

http://seattletimes.com/html/sports/2020386811_apbkccaliforniamontgomerysshove.html?sy ndication=rss

Times certainly are changing....

maynard g krebs
02-19-2013, 12:14 PM
Interesting to watch going forward. That relationship is shot IMHO. Would not be shocked if he chooses to transfer... Would not be shocked if he guts it out one more year.

I'd be shocked if he transfers, since he's a jr who will make a lot of money as a pro, whether NBA or Europe. Can't see him sitting out a year- if he was younger maybe. Bet he stays, unless he goes pro.

former1dog
02-19-2013, 12:22 PM
Interesting to watch going forward. That relationship is shot IMHO. Would not be shocked if he chooses to transfer... Would not be shocked if he guts it out one more year.

Oh brother.... :rolleyes:

The only thing you know about this relationship is from a 20 second clip and now you've jumped to the conclusion that the relationship, which has probably gone on for the better part of 5 or 6 years (recruiting plus time at CAL) is shot?

oooooooooooooooooo - kay...

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 12:22 PM
Oh brother.... :rolleyes:

The only thing you know about this relationship is from a 20 second clip and now you've jumped to the conclusion that the relationship, which has probably gone on for the better part of 5 or 6 years (recruiting plus time at CAL) is shot?

oooooooooooooooooo - kay...

Whatever.

former1dog
02-19-2013, 12:27 PM
Whatever.

I know, why worry about the actual facts and state of the relationship when you've got the LIZF opinion, which is clearly more important.

http://www.calbears.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/021813aaf.html


On Coach Montgomery
"It was just coach's way of motivating me. It was just a spur of the moment emotional game and he was trying to motivate me. It's water under the bridge. He's my coach, and there are no hard feelings. I've just got to leave it at that; it motivated me. Justin and Richard came over and just told me to keep my head in the game, we are family and we have got to stay in there together."

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 12:35 PM
I know, why worry about the actual facts and state of the relationship when you've got the LIZF opinion, which is clearly more important.

http://www.calbears.com/sports/m-baskbl/recaps/021813aaf.html

Like I said... Whatever. You of course can never be wrong. Not ever.

I can also read that as PR speak. The level of anger shown afterwards showed more. Yes he may stay. Yes it may be "water under the bridge". But I know if someone pisses me off that much... It will never be water under any bridge.

But you get to win. You are right. End of story. The world is going soft, there was nothing wrong with what happened... Debate over.... F1D wins.

former1dog
02-19-2013, 12:37 PM
Debate over.... F1D wins.

Cripes, finally!

I was wondering if I would ever get through your thick skull.

:allhail:

cjm720
02-19-2013, 12:47 PM
Like I said... Whatever. You of course can never be wrong. Not ever.

I can also read that as PR speak. The level of anger shown afterwards showed more. Yes he may stay. Yes it may be "water under the bridge". But I know if someone pisses me off that much... It will never be water under any bridge.

But you get to win. You are right. End of story. The world is going soft, there was nothing wrong with what happened... Debate over.... F1D wins.

You mean Monty's PR apology? LOL

HillBillyZag
02-19-2013, 02:42 PM
Who cares more about you? Some touchy feel'ee teacher or coach who wants to be your "Buddy", "feel your pain"?, and message your ego? Or an "old school type" TEACHER?COACH?, who KNOWS the Game/subject he/she instructs?, and expects player/student to become so familiar with it?, that it becomes second nature. It does'nt matter if you are a musician?, a Company employee?, or a team sport athlete ? Without your BEST effort?, the Orchestra will sound flat!, the important account will be lost!, and your team will face DEFEAT! If your daughter/son were involved?, and were in the wrong?, would'nt you rather have Bob Knight, Mike K, or Montgomery emphasize correction of repeated errors/mistakes with some salty language?, some extra laps?, or God forbid?, a harmless push or shove? to prove that for every " decision", there is a "consequence? In this Father's eyes it's a "no-brainer"?

kclubfounder
02-19-2013, 03:41 PM
You guys are right. It's a big joke.

Crabbe must have thought so as his teammates tried to calm him down practically under the bleachers. I am sure Monty apology was in jest and I'm sure the PAC 12 reprimand means very little.

You are right... There was nothing wrong with it and it was no big deal.

Choke a kid if it properly motivates the him. No big deal.

The fact that the politically correct and common sense wrong segment of our population is winning does not mean that a specific act SHOULD be criticized. It only means it WILL be criticized.

If that makes you feel superior, congratulations. It doesn't make you right.

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 04:35 PM
Already told you you guys win. Punch the kids if it works too.

kclubfounder
02-19-2013, 04:42 PM
Already told you you guys win. Punch the kids if it works too.

Cool.

Glad to know you are open-minded.

Personally, I don't think a "punch" is a good idea. But you could talk me into a justifiable hack.

DixieZag
02-19-2013, 05:28 PM
These are very tough situations. I seriously doubt there is a "right side" or "wrong side" to these things.

I do know that I very much appreciate LIZF's sensitivity to the person who is both on the receiving end of the incident and the one who is essentially powerless in the relationship.

It is too easy IMHO for people who are older, more "established" in their relationships, used to authority etc. to judge that from the perspective of the player, young person, "powerless" (for lack of a better term) that the incident was "tough love" "not a big deal" "will help in the long run".

If my daughter were away from home, I would certainly appreciate someone with LIZF's perspective looking into the issue.

LongIslandZagFan
02-19-2013, 05:38 PM
Cool.

Glad to know you are open-minded.

Personally, I don't think a "punch" is a good idea. But you could talk me into a justifiable hack.


So you get to draw the line of what is acceptable contact? Lord of the flies School of coaching?

Any coach that does that to my son, "justified" or not, better have their insurance paid.... Cuz they'll be going to the hospital. There is NOTHING that served that benching him and getting in his ear wouldn't have done just as well. The PAC 12 agrees with me.

maynard g krebs
02-19-2013, 06:13 PM
I'm really surprised there are people who don't understand the power dynamic here. The multimillionaire coach decides who plays and who doesn't. Crabbe had every right to bust Monty's nose for that, but if he had done so, it would have hurt his career (he'd be seen as the hothead by pro people), so he has to repress his rage and say the right thing. Crabbe saying it's ok is the only "politically correct" thing going on here. That shouldn't be too hard to see.

Abuse of power, plain and simple. Good thing more and more people are seeing that. Shows we're evolving- some faster than others.

Benching worked for Adam Morrison. All that's needed, as LIZF correctly said.

DixieZag
02-19-2013, 06:21 PM
So you get to draw the line of what is acceptable contact? Lord of the flies School of coaching?

Any coach that does that to my son, "justified" or not, better have their insurance paid.... Cuz they'll be going to the hospital. There is NOTHING that served that benching him and getting in his ear wouldn't have done just as well. The PAC 12 agrees with me.

That is why I think your heart is in the right place. I am sure that most people would strongly defend their son/daughter - - but you are seeing this from the perspective of someone else's son, which is telling, to me.

The coach/player relationship in college is almost tragically one sided. To watch ESPN you would think it is the coaches who own the school and wear the uniform. A player, especially one away from home, is dependent upon that coach for everything, from PT to food. Often the coaches are untouchable in the communities. That is why I think it is right to come out strongly, early, on behalf of the person that has little to no voice in the situation.

awberke
02-19-2013, 06:46 PM
I didn't think my original post was speaking for a minority.

What i see is a person of authority pushing his player in a violent way, I don't think you can deny that part (argue the severity all you want).

A coach is responsible for a player's safety in a lot of ways, I just don't see how violence fits in that role at all.

HOOTER
02-19-2013, 06:49 PM
The reason this doesn't bother me is because I understand the coaches intent. If he was trying to cause bodily harm then it's assault. That's just not what happened. He was trying to get through to his player and this is just how it came out in the heat of the moment. His intentions were in the right place, he just had a momentary lapse of judgment. What he did was not a good idea, but I truly believe he meant no harm. This just falls in a gray area for me where it was wrong, but it just doesn't rise to the level of assault or anything that extreme. Just my opinion.

bballbeachbum
02-19-2013, 07:20 PM
as a Cal alum, sucks having to see this. Don't think Monty has ever acted this way before and if he has I can't remember, but it's unacceptable behavior. Can't do it again.

Cal is playing well right now, best I've seen from them is some time, and the team and Crabbe responded to this incident well. But the end cannot justify the means. I think Monty has handled this mistake well. Hope it never happens again, he'll get fired imo.

ZagsBaby
02-19-2013, 07:24 PM
Way late to the party, but LOL at anyone thinking this is a big deal.

bballbeachbum
02-19-2013, 07:33 PM
Way late to the party, but LOL at anyone thinking this is a big deal.

laugh all you want, but this does not go over well in Berkeley; the Regents aren't laughing at it. Monty's full monty apology helps, just cannot do it again.

DixieZag
02-19-2013, 07:36 PM
Way late to the party, but LOL at anyone thinking this is a big deal.

So, being "way late" you just dropped by to "LOL" at people that think it is serious?

Thanks.

BSUBronco74
02-19-2013, 07:36 PM
I played for Mike Montgomery (well, he was just an assistant coach at Boise State then) and I do not see anything wrong with his actions except that they were caught on camera. Monty has passion and fire (as he said in his statement), and a great head for basketball. I have always followed his coaching career, from BSU, to Montana, to Stanford, the Warriors and now Cal Beserkely. I respect the guy tremendously, even as a young assistant coach, we players knew he was the best coach on the floor. Last time I talked to him was at Leavey Center during the WCC tourney there some years back. His son John was playing for LMU. I saw Monty sitting in the stands and went down to talk with him. He is a great guy. If you think his little shove on Crabbe was heinous, you should have seen how Jud Heathcote treated his players when he was at Montana. Don't get me wrong, I like Jud too. But he was very very physical and demonstrative with his players. Monty is a choir boy compared to that. So give him a break on this one.

bartruff1
02-19-2013, 07:38 PM
as a Cal alum, sucks having to see this. Don't think Monty has ever acted this way before and if he has I can't remember, but it's unacceptable behavior. Can't do it again.

Cal is playing well right now, best I've seen from them is some time, and the team and Crabbe responded to this incident well. But the end cannot justify the means. I think Monty has handled this mistake well. Hope it never happens again, he'll get fired imo. Your right on. I doubt it will ever happen again....if it does...he will be gone.... he is a class act.

GeorgiaZagFan
02-19-2013, 07:40 PM
it was only a "shocker" to me that it made the news ...must have been a slow day

kclubfounder
02-19-2013, 07:52 PM
So you get to draw the line of what is acceptable contact? Lord of the flies School of coaching?

Any coach that does that to my son, "justified" or not, better have their insurance paid.... Cuz they'll be going to the hospital. There is NOTHING that served that benching him and getting in his ear wouldn't have done just as well. The PAC 12 agrees with me.

Huh? What is this? I thought you said we won. I thought you admitted that those of us who realize it is much to do about nothing were correct! I thought you finally realized that all your hand wringing and faux outrage and ridiculous screaming and yelling was silly.

Why this latest comment?

ZagsBaby
02-19-2013, 07:56 PM
So you get to draw the line of what is acceptable contact? Lord of the flies School of coaching?

Any coach that does that to my son, "justified" or not, better have their insurance paid.... Cuz they'll be going to the hospital. There is NOTHING that served that benching him and getting in his ear wouldn't have done just as well. The PAC 12 agrees with me.

LMAO I'm sure your 20 year old son would just love it if Daddy jumped out of the stands in a nationally televised game and ran down and tried to fight the coach because the coach pushed your kid to fire him up.

The PAC 12 doesn't agree with you though, because they just reprimanded him... They didn't try and beat him up.

DixieZag
02-19-2013, 08:10 PM
I played for Mike Montgomery (well, he was just an assistant coach at Boise State then) and I do not see anything wrong with his actions except that they were caught on camera. Monty has passion and fire (as he said in his statement), and a great head for basketball. I have always followed his coaching career, from BSU, to Montana, to Stanford, the Warriors and now Cal Beserkely. I respect the guy tremendously, even as a young assistant coach, we players knew he was the best coach on the floor. Last time I talked to him was at Leavey Center during the WCC tourney there some years back. His son John was playing for LMU. I saw Monty sitting in the stands and went down to talk with him. He is a great guy. If you think his little shove on Crabbe was heinous, you should have seen how Jud Heathcote treated his players when he was at Montana. Don't get me wrong, I like Jud too. But he was very very physical and demonstrative with his players. Monty is a choir boy compared to that. So give him a break on this one.

Absolutely. If anyone has earned a "benefit of the doubt" or for lack of a better term a "second chance" it is Montegomery. He IS a class act.

That is why the thread is titled "a shocker" b/c it is surprising.

Just as true, though, is that he was way wrong to do this. And, no, it's not wrong b/c it was caught on camera, it's wrong. It is wrong if it was done long ago, it is wrong if done by coach Wooden, it's still wrong. There are a lot of behaviors that used to be "lol" "no big deal" "get over it" - - that we now don't tolerate b/c brave people said, no - this is wrong.

I really like Montegomery, I would pick him to coach my daughter (if he coached girls) above 9-10 other Pac coaches, and STILL would, just so long as he knows that that is not acceptable and makes some amends between himself and the player.

mgadfly
02-19-2013, 08:13 PM
Cuz they'll be going to the hospital.

This is wrong.

If the adult player's parents have a problem with it, I'm sure there is a more responsible way of dealing with it than beating a coach within an inch of his life and sending him to the hospital.

soccerdud
02-19-2013, 09:40 PM
So you get to draw the line of what is acceptable contact? Lord of the flies School of coaching?

Any coach that does that to my son, "justified" or not, better have their insurance paid.... Cuz they'll be going to the hospital. There is NOTHING that served that benching him and getting in his ear wouldn't have done just as well. The PAC 12 agrees with me.

your inane (and repeated) implication that those who disagree with you would be fine with "punching" or "choking" deserved exactly the response you got.

but in the interest of killing this dead, i think "acceptable contact" is any that does no physical harm and is not intended to do physical harm.

any reasonable viewing of the incident shows the contact fails both. while punching or choking clearly does not.

but good luck hospitalizing a coach. don't trip climbing off your high horse.

maynard g krebs
02-19-2013, 10:41 PM
your inane (and repeated) implication that those who disagree with you would be fine with "punching" or "choking" deserved exactly the response you got.

but in the interest of killing this dead, i think "acceptable contact" is any that does no physical harm and is not intended to do physical harm.

any reasonable viewing of the incident shows the contact fails both. while punching or choking clearly does not.

but good luck hospitalizing a coach. don't trip climbing off your high horse.

Ever play in a playground game in an urban area? A 2 hand shove in the chest is a perceived as a challenge to one's manhood (a nonverbal "come on, m-f, hit me" in essence), and frequently results in punches being thrown before guys break it up. Posts like this ignore the fact that Crabbe had to be restrained and talked to back in the tunnel. That shows that it wasn't "acceptable contact". He was furious and humiliated, but knew he was powerless to do anything about it without jeopardizing his reputation and future.

Again, abuse of power. Benching and tongue lashing are the appropriate measures, as has been said.

HillBillyZag
02-19-2013, 11:51 PM
Look ,I lived in the Cleveland inner-city long ago. It's not real cool. Most of the folks I knew could'nt wait to move the hell out of there. My late next door neighbor here put five children through College while working as a custodian at a Rochester New York Hospital. I saw Mrs Jackson knock her thirteen year old son on his ass for using street talk in her house. In this world there are two kinds of people?, Decent folk and trash. Neither group has a corner on race, income, values, or success. You can behave like an adult or a punk gang member, it's your choice? If your game is good enough?, in some schools?, you can bring the gang image and piss poor attitude right along with you. But in your better schools?, that " dog won't hunt".

DixieZag
02-20-2013, 12:10 AM
your inane (and repeated) implication that those who disagree with you would be fine with "punching" or "choking" deserved exactly the response you got.

but in the interest of killing this dead, i think "acceptable contact" is any that does no physical harm and is not intended to do physical harm.

any reasonable viewing of the incident shows the contact fails both. while punching or choking clearly does not.

but good luck hospitalizing a coach. don't trip climbing off your high horse.

You are right in that this doesn't rise to the level of "punching" or "choking" if it had it would be the D.A. that would be overseeing the punishment.

But, I think (and I am not presuming to always be right) that it is not good enough to say "it didn't do physical harm, nor was it intended to" - I say that b/c that coach lashed out with no intention of doing anything except unleashing his own anger and he did it upon someone who would HAVE to take it.

Your statement about "he didn't intend. . ." belies you seeing this only from the coaches perspective, not unusual in that respect. Most of "us" are of Monty's age, in similar positions professionally. And, occassionally all of us "lose it." But, put yourself in the kid's position and the equation changes b/c it could have done a ton of harm if you broaden your view a little.

In the 5-10 seconds it took, from beginning to end, had this player "lashed out" in response, would you say that b/c he "didn't hurt the coach or didn't intend to hurt the coach" that it was all ok? It doesn't matter b/c he would never play again - no one would ever ask what his intentions were. THAT is the danger, not physical harm, but natural, expected consequences arising when someone abuses their power and aggressively lashes out at someone that can't or won't or wouldn't dare b/c they will never get another chance.

Monty should not lose his job b/c of this, it wasn't meant to physically hurt the kid, he has EARNED another chance over a long career and I truly believe that he is probably more shocked by what he did than we are and will make things right, I sincerely believe that, and he had better because what he did was very wrong.

LongIslandZagFan
02-20-2013, 06:22 AM
your inane (and repeated) implication that those who disagree with you would be fine with "punching" or "choking" deserved exactly the response you got.

but in the interest of killing this dead, i think "acceptable contact" is any that does no physical harm and is not intended to do physical harm.

any reasonable viewing of the incident shows the contact fails both. while punching or choking clearly does not.

but good luck hospitalizing a coach. don't trip climbing off your high horse.

Simple test of your theory... Would you be OK with a coach doing the same thing to a 10 yr old or a 14 yr old?

I assume you don't have a child.

Zagsker
02-20-2013, 06:31 AM
LMAO I'm sure your 20 year old son would just love it if Daddy jumped out of the stands in a nationally televised game and ran down and tried to fight the coach because the coach pushed your kid to fire him up.

The PAC 12 doesn't agree with you though, because they just reprimanded him... They didn't try and beat him up.

:D...funny stuff

This incident is overblown in my opinion...all I hear is "rabble rabble rabble"

LongIslandZagFan
02-20-2013, 06:32 AM
:D...funny stuff

This incident is overblown in my opinion...all I hear is "rabble rabble rabble"

Btw my son is 13.

BTB
02-20-2013, 06:40 AM
Simple test of your theory... Would you be OK with a coach doing the same thing to a 10 yr old or a 14 yr old?

I assume you don't have a child.

Simple test to your "treat players of all age the same" theory... would you bench a 10 year old for traveling a couple of times or turning the ball over?

Kids of different ages and skill levels should all be coached differently. The rules that apply to college players obviously do not apply to 10 year olds. 10 year olds are not adults, college athletes are.

Zagsker
02-20-2013, 06:44 AM
nm

LongIslandZagFan
02-20-2013, 07:27 AM
Nope... You are wrong. Comparing coaching strategy to physical contact is not the same.

Btw... Yes, if a kid is continually doing the same thing wrong on the field at a competitive level... They get sat and talked to... Even at 10.

Physical contact wrong at one age means its wrong at any age. But you can think what you want. Hope you don't get yourself in trouble for putting your hands on someone else's child.

cjm720
02-20-2013, 08:05 AM
This thread reminds me of a book called The Slap. A good fictional read...

mgadfly
02-20-2013, 09:14 AM
Posts like this ignore the fact that Crabbe had to be restrained and talked to back in the tunnel. That shows that it wasn't "acceptable contact".

I don't think the reaction was due to the push, but was a response to the message being sent. Had he got in his face in front of everybody and screamed at him, "your being a lazy selfish jerk who is letting your teammates down. Do you want to play or not?" you may have seen a similar reaction.

The most intense reaction I ever saw from a player is when a coach said something along those same lines to a player. He did not put his hands on the kid at all. The player responded by throwing a punch at the coach which earned him a suspension from the team.

I would also point out the single interaction during a stressful and public moment did not destroy the relationship between the player and coach.

Maybe Crabbe, even if the DA won't get involved, will sue his coach for all of this emotional distress. The statute of limitations won't run until after his career is over at Stanford and he is already playing somewhere else. Perfect solution.

Zag4Hire
02-20-2013, 10:38 AM
Nope... You are wrong. Comparing coaching strategy to physical contact is not the same.

Btw... Yes, if a kid is continually doing the same thing wrong on the field at a competitive level... They get sat and talked to... Even at 10.

Physical contact wrong at one age means its wrong at any age. But you can think what you want. Hope you don't get yourself in trouble for putting your hands on someone else's child.

Wow this is quite the thread. Have to say I completely agree with LIZF. Unacceptable under any circumstances to physically touch a student in that nature. All stories of kids/no kids, coaching, teaching, etc., long story short, if another adult pushed your kid, you would not be happy. You may just want the apology, you may want his job, you may want blood, but you wouldn't be happy. Again, what LIZF said, if somebody did that to your kid and you were nonchalant in your response, I think something might be wrong. The shocking part was it was by Coach Monty. Never would have thought he would be the type of coach to do that. Saw him a few times around downtown PA and just seems like a cool customer. However I think we are all susceptible to 'heat of the moment' behavior and I don't think this indicative of his character/personality.

Coach Crazy
02-20-2013, 10:54 AM
Sometimes you have to get physical with a player on some level. Having actually coached, it depends on the person, the setting, and the force used. It's not assault, it's not battery, it's sports.

Time for another "GET OFF MY LAWN!"

maynard g krebs
02-20-2013, 11:37 AM
One thing about abuse is that you can't predict the response. People are wired differently, and have different programs operating in their subconscious based on early life experience. I doubt that Sprewell choked Carlesimo without some kind of provocation, where a lot of players just take it.

When abused, some people are able to just let it go. Others internalize it and become depressed/anxious/suicidal. (Consider the current suicide epidemic in the army, where abuse is institutionalized). A few go into an uncontrollable rage and lash out.

When a Newtown happens, it's the tip of the iceberg that is a society where people say it's ok to do what Monty did. Everybody wrings their hands and says "why did this happen" when in reality the answer is pretty simple.

I know I'll get ridiculed by the "tough" guys on the board for saying that, but it's the truth and needs to be said.

Hoopaholic
02-20-2013, 11:59 AM
If the correlation is physical punishment and verbal abuse leads to NEWTON and SUICIDE......

why didnt we have a whole bunch of NEWTON's in the 40, 50 and 60 and 70's when physical punishment was the norm, not the exception?

Why didnt the military have much higher suicide rates in the 30,40,50,60 and 70's their "style" has changed during those periods, but no where near suicide rates we are seeing today?

Could it be we as a society have created entitlement expectations every which way we turn and thus those who conclude that they are not going to get their way every time they "desire it" they can no longer handle it appropriately within the society boundaries/expecations?

Something tells me there is a good thesis paper in this ideological discussion.....I still spank my kids even though they are grown adults (transparency disclosure statement)

BTB
02-20-2013, 12:03 PM
I think this is starting to go a little past the scope of this message board

maynard g krebs
02-20-2013, 12:33 PM
If the correlation is physical punishment and verbal abuse leads to NEWTON and SUICIDE......

why didnt we have a whole bunch of NEWTON's in the 40, 50 and 60 and 70's when physical punishment was the norm, not the exception?

Why didnt the military have much higher suicide rates in the 30,40,50,60 and 70's their "style" has changed during those periods, but no where near suicide rates we are seeing today?

Could it be we as a society have created entitlement expectations every which way we turn and thus those who conclude that they are not going to get their way every time they "desire it" they can no longer handle it appropriately within the society boundaries/expecations?

Something tells me there is a good thesis paper in this ideological discussion.....I still spank my kids even though they are grown adults (transparency disclosure statement)

1)First sentence kind of twists what I said. Newtown kid had bad wiring, but send him to a place like Thom Hartmann's Hunter School when he's about 7 and the odds are about 99.9% that he doesn't do what he did. I said nothing about a general correlation; see the phrase "tip of the iceberg"

2)Saying it's entitlement is, imo, ridiculously simplistic. Sorry to be harsh. There are a lot of complex factors involved including the media and the breakdown of the fabric of community.

3)If it weren't for the rest of your post, I'd assume you were kidding with the last sentence.

At least some of us are debating the validity of abusive behavior these days, which is a step in the right direction.