PDA

View Full Version : When is it a foul?



bigblahla
01-21-2013, 09:43 AM
I think some here might need a refreshher course interesting reading.

Fouls and Penalties

Section 1. Personal Fouls

Art. 1. A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress of an
opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s) or by bending his
or her own body into other than a normal position or by using any unreasonably
rough tactics.

Art. 2. A player shall not contact an opponent with his or her hand unless such
contact is only with the opponent’s hand while it is on the ball and is incidental
to an attempt to play the ball.

Art. 3. A player shall not use his or her hand(s) on an opponent to inhibit the
freedom of movement of the opponent in any way.

Art. 4. A player shall not extend the arm(s) fully or partially other than vertically
so that freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the
arm(s) occurs.

Art. 5. A player shall not use the forearm and/or hand to prevent an opponent
from attacking the ball during a dribble or when trying for goal.

Art. 6. A player may hold his or her hand(s) and arm(s) in front of his or her own
face or body for protection and to absorb force from an imminent charge by an
opponent.

Art. 7. Contact caused by a defensive player approaching a player with the ball
from behind is pushing; contact caused by the momentum of a player who has
tried for goal is charging.

Art. 8. A dribbler shall neither charge into nor contact an opponent in the
dribbler’s path nor attempt to dribble between two opponents or between an
opponent and a boundary, unless the space is sufficient to provide a reasonable
chance for the dribbler to pass through without contact.

Art. 9. When a dribbler passes an opponent sufficiently to have head and
shoulders beyond the front of the opponent’s torso, the greater responsibility for
subsequent contact shall be that of the opponent.

Art. 10. When a dribbler has obtained a straight-line path, the dribbler may not be
bumped, pushed or otherwise crowded out of that path. When an opponent is able
to legally obtain a guarding position in that path, the dribbler shall avoid contact
by changing direction or ending the dribble.

Art. 11. The player intending to become the dribbler shall not be permitted
additional rights to start a dribble or to execute a jump try for goal, pivot or feint.

Art. 12. A secondary defender as defined in Rule 4-61 cannot establish initial
legal guarding position in the restricted area for the purpose of drawing a player
control foul/charge when defending a player who is in control of the ball (i.e.,
dribbling or shooting) or who has released the ball for a pass or try.

Thought some here might appreciate this.

Go!! Zags!!!

LongIslandZagFan
01-21-2013, 10:03 AM
You mean how Kelly was pushed out of position on that final play?

cjm720
01-21-2013, 10:09 AM
You mean how Kelly was pushed out of position on that final play?

Still can't believed that wasn't called. Of course, a better executed inbounds pass and the outcome would have been different.

LongIslandZagFan
01-21-2013, 10:10 AM
Still can't believed that wasn't called. Of course, a better executed inbounds pass and the outcome would have been different.

IMHO. Kelly should have hacked him on the runner. He couldn't hit the side of a barn from the charity stripe.

kitzbuel
01-21-2013, 10:13 AM
IMHO. Kelly should have hacked him on the runner. He couldn't hit the side of a barn from the charity stripe.

That is a lot of thinking to do on the fly, but that occurred to me, too.

LongIslandZagFan
01-21-2013, 10:17 AM
That is a lot of thinking to do on the fly, but that occurred to me, too.

I agree... Also would have taken him out of the game.

zag944
01-21-2013, 10:21 AM
I dont like it, but for some reason there is a notion that the referees should let more go near the end of a game. Unfortunately it is something that needs to be accounted for. Foul or not, a no call was hardly suprising.

Ekrub
01-21-2013, 10:23 AM
IMHO. Kelly should have hacked him on the runner. He couldn't hit the side of a barn from the charity stripe.

Lol the second the ball was stolen I thought the same thing. But to be honest, we probably had a better chance at winning with him taking that ten foot floater.

TacomaZAG
01-21-2013, 10:24 AM
Butler had nothing to lose on that last play. If the push is called, no big deal, as Butler was going to foul immediately on the inbounds pass anyway. If the push is not called, well.........

Unfortunately, unless blood is spilled, that foul will not be called at the end of a game. Just like the NHL, the officials will not call that as they don't want to be accused of "deciding the outcome".

Go ZAGS

cjm720
01-21-2013, 11:00 AM
IMHO. Kelly should have hacked him on the runner. He couldn't hit the side of a barn from the charity stripe.

Totally....

bigblahla
01-21-2013, 11:05 AM
Butler was bad but nothing like what we will face in Moraga. The Gaels make Butler look like light weights when it comes to ILLEGAL tactics and of course the WCC officials will allow the Gaels to get away with murder in the paint while mouthpiece fouls every time he dribbles the ball.

Our commissioner wants parity at all costs and just like he helped GU with it's scheduling this past week when we played the only game with national implications involving a WCC team he will make sure we get a fair shake in Moraga. ;)

Only one or two pundits in the country acknowledged the push on TKO because it ruins the story line. Nobody will ever call Butler on their illegal tactics because it's the Butler way.

Few > Stevens for respecting the integrity of the game and not promoting the type of play our Zags fell victim to at Hinkle.

We are a better team and a better program.

Just my opinion.

Go!! Zags!!!

willandi
01-21-2013, 11:20 AM
I think some here might need a refreshher course interesting reading.

Fouls and Penalties

Section 1. Personal Fouls

Art. 1. A player shall not hold, push, charge, trip or impede the progress of an
opponent by extending arm(s), shoulder(s), hip(s) or knee(s) or by bending his
or her own body into other than a normal position or by using any unreasonably
rough tactics.

Art. 2. A player shall not contact an opponent with his or her hand unless such
contact is only with the opponent’s hand while it is on the ball and is incidental
to an attempt to play the ball.

Art. 3. A player shall not use his or her hand(s) on an opponent to inhibit the
freedom of movement of the opponent in any way.

Art. 4. A player shall not extend the arm(s) fully or partially other than vertically
so that freedom of movement of an opponent is hindered when contact with the
arm(s) occurs.

Art. 5. A player shall not use the forearm and/or hand to prevent an opponent
from attacking the ball during a dribble or when trying for goal.

Art. 6. A player may hold his or her hand(s) and arm(s) in front of his or her own
face or body for protection and to absorb force from an imminent charge by an
opponent.

Art. 7. Contact caused by a defensive player approaching a player with the ball
from behind is pushing; contact caused by the momentum of a player who has
tried for goal is charging.

Art. 8. A dribbler shall neither charge into nor contact an opponent in the
dribbler’s path nor attempt to dribble between two opponents or between an
opponent and a boundary, unless the space is sufficient to provide a reasonable
chance for the dribbler to pass through without contact.

Art. 9. When a dribbler passes an opponent sufficiently to have head and
shoulders beyond the front of the opponent’s torso, the greater responsibility for
subsequent contact shall be that of the opponent.

Art. 10. When a dribbler has obtained a straight-line path, the dribbler may not be
bumped, pushed or otherwise crowded out of that path. When an opponent is able
to legally obtain a guarding position in that path, the dribbler shall avoid contact
by changing direction or ending the dribble.

Art. 11. The player intending to become the dribbler shall not be permitted
additional rights to start a dribble or to execute a jump try for goal, pivot or feint.

Art. 12. A secondary defender as defined in Rule 4-61 cannot establish initial
legal guarding position in the restricted area for the purpose of drawing a player
control foul/charge when defending a player who is in control of the ball (i.e.,
dribbling or shooting) or who has released the ball for a pass or try.

Thought some here might appreciate this.

Go!! Zags!!!

Shouldn't this be sent to the head of officiating? And posted on the door of the Refs locker room? And posted on the scoring table? And maybe a leaflet that Few could hand to the ref, in pasing, after each BS call.

Kind of along the same line, What would happen if the players took a page from pick-up ball, and called 'FOUL' loudly after a no call when they were fouled? My wife thinks the refs would stop it quickly, so then they could yell OWW, COWW, WOW, NOW etc.

adoptedzag
01-21-2013, 11:25 AM
I agree... Also would have taken him out of the game.

It also might not have been called. See USF last year against us when Blackwell, I think, charged into Pangos for a game winning shot.

Fonebone
01-21-2013, 11:51 AM
My question on the push off by the Butler guy when I watched the replay, was that it looked to me like Kelly was already kind of breaking away in the direction of the shove. It did not look like Kelly was standing still and the guy pushed him away, it looked like he pushed him in the direction he had already started moving. If so, thats a lot less likely to be called and perhaps rightfully so. Lots of that kind of pushing goes on.

Did anybody else see it that way ?

bigblahla
01-21-2013, 12:11 PM
My question on the push off by the Butler guy when I watched the replay, was that it looked to me like Kelly was already kind of breaking away in the direction of the shove. It did not look like Kelly was standing still and the guy pushed him away, it looked like he pushed him in the direction he had already started moving. If so, thats a lot less likely to be called and perhaps rightfully so. Lots of that kind of pushing goes on.

Did anybody else see it that way ?

What I saw was a defensive player with arms extended and hands on an offensive player attempting to receive a pass. Articles 1 & 2 say that's a foul but obviously the officials don't adhere to the rule book. So what policies do they follow? Where are they printed?

There were many bad calls against the Zags in the Butler game, bad calls put both E and TKO on the bench in the first half. For those that say quit whining and credit Butler with a tough win I say I'm not whining here's the rule book, read it as you don't know what you are talking about.

Go!! Zags!!!

3zagda
01-21-2013, 12:29 PM
Fonebone, I agree.
after watching the replay yesterday, it looked to me like Kelly broke that way to get some space. Just prior, Kelly & Jones were pushing on each other think and I David misread what Kelly was going to do at the worst moment.

Oregonzagnut
01-21-2013, 12:37 PM
Is there really any reason for Article #6? Would you use someone else's arms to shield yourself?


Art. 6. A player may hold his or her hand(s) and arm(s) in front of his or her own
face or body for protection and to absorb force from an imminent charge by an
opponent.

Article # 10 leaves a lot of interpretation because it is saying a player can't even be bumped. It is saying here, no touch at all IMO.


Art. 10. When a dribbler has obtained a straight-line path, the dribbler may not be
bumped, pushed or otherwise crowded out of that path. When an opponent is able
to legally obtain a guarding position in that path, the dribbler shall avoid contact
by changing direction or ending the dribble.

Ekrub
01-21-2013, 01:40 PM
Is there really any reason for Article #6? Would you use someone else's arms to shield yourself?



Article # 10 leaves a lot of interpretation because it is saying a player can't even be bumped. It is saying here, no touch at all IMO.

I don't think basketball really adheres to the rule book. The rules have kind of taken on their own form since the calls are subjective. One game it's a block, another it's a charge.

Hoopaholic
01-21-2013, 01:47 PM
Article 6 is used all time..guards with off hand bent in l shape to give extra dribbling space, post players posting up...designed rule to counter the space concept where in theory each player is entitled to free movement within their space arm extended without rule would violate personal space issue...now you extend he arm out you have entered defenders space and that is a foul


Rule 10 applies straight line to basket...not angle or vearing slightly away from basket was designed to protect he offensive player as they drove straight to hoop...not spin moves, reverses ect must be applied while direct line to hoop

Oregonzagnut
01-21-2013, 02:10 PM
Article 6 is used all time..guards with off hand bent in l shape to give extra dribbling space, post players posting up...designed rule to counter the space concept where in theory each player is entitled to free movement within their space arm extended without rule would violate personal space issue...now you extend he arm out you have entered defenders space and that is a foul

So when you have your position in front of the basket you can't stand there with 2 arms and fists fully outstretched and let the guy run into your fists?

Whatever happened to the excuse "The guys face ran into my fist"? :boxing:

Jeez

ZagsGoZags
01-21-2013, 02:55 PM
What I saw was Kelly and Jones pushing on each other before the ball was thrown in, then Kelly leans left and starts moving to the left. That made Jones arm look like a push, but part of that move was expecting push back and not getting it.

That inbounds pass, which is used in practice, usually takes more seconds than Stockton used. Kelly expected Stockton to pass to him wherever he was, and pass to the person. Stockton passed right away to the spot he first saw Kelly at. Kelly prob suspected the lob pass was not safe because of how Jones was lining up on him, and made his cut to the left. Just real bad timing.

BUT, I think whoever passes the ball into play should be passing to the player's location, even if the play is drawn for a certain spot. Especially when less than 10 feet.

jim77
01-21-2013, 03:44 PM
My biggest beef was with the refs. If the ref wants to call it tight....great.....if he wants to call it loose...fine. But, call it the same for both teams. Our guys simply couldn't adjust to what they were calling. They had players run into ours and throw their hands up...and our guy got whistled....happened at least twice.

Oregonzagnut
01-21-2013, 03:50 PM
What I saw was Kelly and Jones pushing on each other before the ball was thrown in, then Kelly leans left and starts moving to the left. That made Jones arm look like a push, but part of that move was expecting push back and not getting it.

That inbounds pass, which is used in practice, usually takes more seconds than Stockton used. Kelly expected Stockton to pass to him wherever he was, and pass to the person. Stockton passed right away to the spot he first saw Kelly at. Kelly prob suspected the lob pass was not safe because of how Jones was lining up on him, and made his cut to the left. Just real bad timing.

BUT, I think whoever passes the ball into play should be passing to the player's location, even if the play is drawn for a certain spot. Especially when less than 10 feet.

In situations like that, pass to the person not to a spot, and eye contact is critical. They lost eye contact with each other for a split second and it left open a 3 second window of doom for our opponent.

:horse:

Few told them what to do and Stockton stuck to it but Kelly was still vying for position. Stockton committed at the time he chose and you can see his pass had no direct intent and was a "jump Ball" style. No follow through or force. It was too quick and up for grabs by assuming Kelly was watching the throw. Stockton threw right when Kelly looked away and cut left instead of spinning around to the center court. You can also see that Kelly looked up real quick and probably said in his mind, "What is it doing up there?"

willandi
01-21-2013, 04:31 PM
We were out of timeouts, I think, so the ball had to be inbounded or it was a turnover.

My dad played HS ball in the mid 1930's. He was 165lbs and 6'7", a real string bean. He told the story of an opponent that would drive towards the basket, taking off just inside the FT line. He would extend his legs, and most players would flinch and get the blocking foul called. After several times, the guy drove and Dad dropped to one knee, extended his clenched fist straight up. The guy wishboned himself.

Dad said that he was tossed, but the guy never used that move again.

Oregonzagnut
01-21-2013, 04:44 PM
I would like to know what Zag has drawn the most Charges in their career? Is that even possible to find?


We were out of timeouts, I think, so the ball had to be inbounded or it was a turnover.

My dad played HS ball in the mid 1930's. He was 165lbs and 6'7", a real string bean. He told the story of an opponent that would drive towards the basket, taking off just inside the FT line. He would extend his legs, and most players would flinch and get the blocking foul called. After several times, the guy drove and Dad dropped to one knee, extended his clenched fist straight up. The guy wishboned himself.

Dad said that he was tossed, but the guy never used that move again.

So literally, "He ran into my fist". If the guy really did that in a game, and a guy sees it and decides to run right into the outstretched fist, how could that be a blocking foul? But seriously, even say without the obvious "fist", and just defending your body, if your feet are clearly set and you are standing there, why does it matter where your arms are if he initiates contact?

Is there an un-written rule that you have to be in a certain posture to get a charge called or is that what Article #6 is?

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww10/peter_aaron/Chargecall.jpg

Or is it just a split second timing thing that if you actually have your arms out, 99% of the time contact will be made before your feet are set. I think it is such a split second move, it takes skill to time it just right. Hart is good, Bouldin was good and if I remember correctly so was Pendo.

I would like to know what Zag has drawn the most Charges, because it is definitely a skill.