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gamagin
01-10-2013, 10:01 PM
the last three games. BIG problem. we were tied 18-18 with smc at half and leading by 18 points.

Then SMC outrebounded us by 12 in the second half.

Got to fix that. Fast.

Hoopaholic
01-10-2013, 10:02 PM
Dower with zero rebounds. Ouch

fedwayzag
01-10-2013, 10:07 PM
Have to agree on the rebounding. We have been so good until the last 3 games. gotta get back to controlling the glass. Would have won by 15-20 if we could have secured a defensive rebound in the 2nd half.

Blitzing-Zag
01-10-2013, 10:36 PM
Rebounding has to get better for us from here on out or else we will be hurting down the road.

Ezag
01-10-2013, 10:37 PM
out rebounded = embarrassment. Who has 2 seven footers?

zagmantis2001
01-10-2013, 10:44 PM
Gaels had 15 offensive rebounds. GU had 5 Ouch.

caduceus
01-10-2013, 10:47 PM
Well at least we won...

http://i.imgur.com/a2zv1.gif

WallaWallaZag
01-10-2013, 10:52 PM
teams that are bricking 3's tend to get a lot of offensive rebounds, but even still, the zags just got outhustled for the whole second half.

Bocco
01-10-2013, 10:58 PM
the last three games. BIG problem. we were tied 18-18 with smc at half and leading by 18 points.

Then SMC outrebounded us by 12 in the second half.

Got to fix that. Fast.

we had 18 and the half and 23 for the game, that means we had 5 rebounds the second half ..... no real mystery why St. Mary's had such a great second half

Ekrub
01-10-2013, 11:04 PM
Harris was a rebounding machine last year. Wish we could combine that with his current offensive output.

Crazy
01-10-2013, 11:12 PM
the last three games. BIG problem. we were tied 18-18 with smc at half and leading by 18 points.

Then SMC outrebounded us by 12 in the second half.

Got to fix that. Fast.

imho that we lost rebounding in second half, has nothing to do with ability it had to do with motivation. I didn't watch so much about first half, but also the 5 minute there, was a different story in effort by the zags then the whole second half. I believe they opened the champaign already at halftime or the air conditioner konditioner in the cabin cooled then down ;)

The problem this game was in mind, that they thought it is won to early and they need to work on, in watching this game 2-3 times to see that an early lead need dedicated works that it stays a lead at the end.

ZagsGoZags
01-11-2013, 12:15 AM
our players, unfortunately, had the same mind set most of the Board had coming into the game

hubris,
overconfident
cocky, braggadocious
thinking about a beat down, expecting a beat down,

instead of thinking of a fight to the bitter end with a bitter foe

zaguarxj
01-11-2013, 06:33 AM
we had 18 and the half and 23 for the game, that means we had 5 rebounds the second half ..... no real mystery why St. Mary's had such a great second half
Wow, that's unbelievably bad.

rijman
01-11-2013, 06:46 AM
The 2nd half rebounding was frustrating, SMC got a lot of 2nd chances including the one ripped away from Kelly by Young for the easy basket. Just frustrating.

Birddog
01-11-2013, 06:58 AM
including the one ripped away from Kelly by Young for the easy basket. Just frustrating.
In Kelly's defense, he was in a very awkward position to keep control when Young ripped it away. I'd give him a break on that one. there were other instances where i wouldn't though.

bballbeachbum
01-11-2013, 07:34 AM
2nd half rebounding and all those missed layups...the reasons, and to me they go together

Bennett's boys came out slamming in the second half, there were no whistles like in the first half, and the Zags looked like they got punched in the mouth, wobbled, and didn't respond well to it. Lots of long rebounds went to SMC too

And those missed layups...those are killers. Without going back and counting, I'd bet the Zags missed 10, maybe even a dozen. Not trying to hijack the thread, but the rebounds and missed layups indicate to me that the Zags got out-toughed, even tho I think it's accurate to say that the zebras allowed alot to go down too

also thought the Zags got too zealous in forcing the ball inside; for a long period there in the second half Bell and Pangos never even shot the ball and the O stagnated. The small lineup didn't help any of this last night either

CDC84
01-11-2013, 08:01 AM
You simply can't let up in rivalry games.

gamagin
01-11-2013, 01:06 PM
2nd half rebounding and all those missed layups...the reasons, and to me they go together

Bennett's boys came out slamming in the second half, there were no whistles like in the first half, and the Zags looked like they got punched in the mouth, wobbled, and didn't respond well to it. Lots of long rebounds went to SMC too

And those missed layups...those are killers. Without going back and counting, I'd bet the Zags missed 10, maybe even a dozen. Not trying to hijack the thread, but the rebounds and missed layups indicate to me that the Zags got out-toughed, even tho I think it's accurate to say that the zebras allowed alot to go down too

also thought the Zags got too zealous in forcing the ball inside; for a long period there in the second half Bell and Pangos never even shot the ball and the O stagnated. The small lineup didn't help any of this last night either

it was a combination of breakdowns. Officiating seemed to come along at the right moments to further frustrate the situation. But I think the key to all these mistakes was the notion that the game was in the bag. And it wasn't for SMC. ANd we didn't buck up to what was happening.

As I thought about it today, I fully remember the Zags waiting for SMC to come out of its huddle when the game seemed fully in hand. they were smiling and looking very much like the score indicated: an easy win ahead in just a few minutes.

I can see KO smiling and looking very much like a kid who was relaxed, in charge, and about to just wait for the clock to run out. I even mentioned to my seatmate after one of the late timeouts that it seemed odd, given the GU lead, that Bennett was huddling on the floor with only the coaches. The Gaels were sitting 20-30 feet away on the bench. Then Bennett emerged from the coaches conference and spoke to the team until the ref came over and forced them back on the floor.

This while the GU heir apparents to this game stood around waiting to kick some more a$$. the contrast was palpable. So, too, were the results when SMC returned and decided to raise all holy hell until the final buzzer. and they did just that.

bballbeachbum
01-11-2013, 02:02 PM
it was a combination of breakdowns. Officiating seemed to come along at the right moments to further frustrate the situation. But I think the key to all these mistakes was the notion that the game was in the bag. And it wasn't for SMC. ANd we didn't buck up to what was happening.

As I thought about it today, I fully remember the Zags waiting for SMC to come out of its huddle when the game seemed fully in hand. they were smiling and looking very much like the score indicated: an easy win ahead in just a few minutes.

I can see KO smiling and looking very much like a kid who was relaxed, in charge, and about to just wait for the clock to run out. I even mentioned to my seatmate after one of the late timeouts that it seemed odd, given the GU lead, that Bennett was huddling on the floor with only the coaches. The Gaels were sitting 20-30 feet away on the bench. Then Bennett emerged from the coaches conference and spoke to the team until the ref came over and forced them back on the floor.

This while the GU heir apparents to this game stood around waiting to kick some more a$$. the contrast was palpable. So, too, were the results when SMC returned and decided to raise all holy hell until the final buzzer. and they did just that.

good stuff gamagin, goes with what CDC said too, which is there can be no letup in these rivalry games; some potentially tough consequences lurk otherwise. It does appear that happened to some degree last night, fortunately not too much

gonzagabasketball
01-11-2013, 02:17 PM
we had 18 and the half and 23 for the game, that means we had 5 rebounds the second half ..... no real mystery why St. Mary's had such a great second half

I counted 9 second half rebounds according to the espn box score play by play. Which doesnt disprove your point by any stretch, as SMC had 21.

Saxon_zag
01-11-2013, 02:24 PM
The 2nd half forcing of the 3 guard lineup as of late explains the rebounding deficiency. Yes we have two seven footers but we have around 0 exceptional rebounders. Elias is the best although he even looked a bit asleep last night at times.

MDABE80
01-11-2013, 03:12 PM
I rewatched the 2nf half. I bet Few has too and likely the whole tea has seen it millions of times. We should have lost this game. DOva was fouled. he should have gotten 2. We were just plain lucky. Lazy, unmotivated and it looked like we just quit working hard.
Those rebound number are just terrible. SOmebody must light a fire. Frankly, the 2nd half was embarrassing. We're gettting closer to a loss. Hate the thought but it's true.

Section 116
01-11-2013, 03:18 PM
On the post game radio show last evening Olynyk and Giacoletti both discussed the difficulty of maintaining focus and discipline after racing out to a 20 point half time lead. This is no excuse for the lack of rebounding effort in the second half but it does offer some explanation for the disappearing lead. Frankly I have seen this phenomenon in a wide variety of sports, collegiate and professional. Also Santangelo noted when the Gaels were into their run the Zags reacted as if stunned. Giacoletti said the fact the Zags were able to regain their poise and hang on for the win spoke well of the team. Giacoletti also noted during the second half timeouts, called and media, Pangos "had the eye of the tiger" and extreme focus as he was not going to lose the game, period.

gamagin
01-11-2013, 03:32 PM
The 2nd half forcing of the 3 guard lineup as of late explains the rebounding deficiency. Yes we have two seven footers but we have around 0 exceptional rebounders. Elias is the best although he even looked a bit asleep last night at times.

the bigs were out of position and thus outplayed.

Honestly, this obsession about 3 guards has evolved from stupid to idiotic and stupid. ANd it seems to come from the same 3-4 guys who don't seem to see anything else.

KO & EH and SD and everyone but Hart played awful on rebounding. SMC went after every board like it was the trillion dollar coin. If they didn't get it the first time, they ripped it out of the hands of the Zag who thought he had already rebounded it. over and over. Because they weren't guarding as if the game were in danger. Until it was.

So look around. One of your favorite guards to slam had 7 assists yesterday. one T.O. He actually had 9-12 assists had they all converted as they should have. At that point he would have have accounted for 18-24 points.

There are lots of examples like that, too. Please think about why you are sticking to this tired old saw about the guards. Especially when it's not the guards.

Oregonzagnut
01-11-2013, 04:34 PM
On the post game radio show last evening Olynyk and Giacoletti both discussed the difficulty of maintaining focus and discipline after racing out to a 20 point half time lead. This is no excuse for the lack of rebounding effort in the second half but it does offer some explanation for the disappearing lead. Frankly I have seen this phenomenon in a wide variety of sports, collegiate and professional. Also Santangelo noted when the Gaels were into their run the Zags reacted as if stunned. Giacoletti said the fact the Zags were able to regain their poise and hang on for the win spoke well of the team. Giacoletti also noted during the second half timeouts, called and media, Pangos "had the eye of the tiger" and extreme focus as he was not going to lose the game, period.

TBH, the fact that they are recognizing it and talking about it is the biggest step. And it is the first step. If getting to a Final Four is like a 12 step program, admitting we have a problem is #1 on that list. :cheers:

I can man up and admit that I know this from experience. Sometimes just manning up to the embarrassment of not being able to solve problems on your own is the hardest thing. Walking on eggshells and saving face in public is the norm. So admitting they need to change their mental outlook is huge.

It is why we lost to UCLA. If St Marys was as good as UCLA yesterday, we would have lost. That game was a mirror of 2006. Except in the last minute we got a Harris "jump ball" gift, and we made our FT's.

gamagin
01-11-2013, 04:42 PM
On the post game radio show last evening Olynyk and Giacoletti both discussed the difficulty of maintaining focus and discipline after racing out to a 20 point half time lead. This is no excuse for the lack of rebounding effort in the second half but it does offer some explanation for the disappearing lead. Frankly I have seen this phenomenon in a wide variety of sports, collegiate and professional. Also Santangelo noted when the Gaels were into their run the Zags reacted as if stunned. Giacoletti said the fact the Zags were able to regain their poise and hang on for the win spoke well of the team. Giacoletti also noted during the second half timeouts, called and media, Pangos "had the eye of the tiger" and extreme focus as he was not going to lose the game, period.

thanks, scoop.

I think the explanation is lame as hell. But I'm also sure it is accurate.

This is SMC. One look at their huddle, or the way they went after every ball, would tell even the least observant person THEY felt they were still in it. It's the way they roll.

This is the defending Conference champ. Everyone but PK, KD and a few others Zags KNOW what they have done and can do. So taking a break is just asking for it. And they did. And they got it.

I don't care if the score is 100-nothing.

maynard g krebs
01-11-2013, 04:45 PM
the bigs were out of position and thus outplayed.

Honestly, this obsession about 3 guards has evolved from stupid to idiotic and stupid. ANd it seems to come from the same 3-4 guys who don't seem to see anything else.



Well put, in terms of how the season has gone overall. It's pick your poison now; none of the 3's are doing enough offensively to avoid using the 3 guards together for stretches.

Last night, though, I can see the point when Holt (who I think is one of the most underrated players in the country, partly due to being injured) was going off like that. First time I thought there was too much of it, because GU was preserving a lead and needed D/boards. V. Illinios, offense was needed to come back, and unfortunately 3 guards is the best offensive lineup now.

maynard g krebs
01-11-2013, 04:50 PM
KO & EH and SD and everyone but Hart played awful on rebounding.

Box on ESPN said Hart had 0 boards in 18 min. Sometimes it just doesn't bounce your way, but still surprising. If he doesn't rebound, he's not being productive.

UberZagFan
01-11-2013, 05:07 PM
Dower with zero rebounds. Ouch


KO & EH and SD and everyone but Hart played awful on rebounding.

Huh? Hart had ZERO rebounds in 18 minutes (unexplainable) to go along with SD's big fat ZERO in 15 minutes (unsurprising).

KO & EH has 8 and 6 respectively, which is decent and for EH close to his average despite being limited to 24 minutes.

And yes, it's partly due to the munchkin lineup that we get killed on the boards in the second half. Those three combined for 6 boards in 98 minutes on the floor. All the minutes given to them means less for Hart/Edi combo.

gamagin
01-12-2013, 12:41 PM
Huh? Hart had ZERO rebounds in 18 minutes (unexplainable) to go along with SD's big fat ZERO in 15 minutes (unsurprising).

KO & EH has 8 and 6 respectively, which is decent and for EH close to his average despite being limited to 24 minutes.

And yes, it's partly due to the munchkin lineup that we get killed on the boards in the second half. Those three combined for 6 boards in 98 minutes on the floor. All the minutes given to them means less for Hart/Edi combo.

poor sentence structure.

I thought hart had a "better" second half than the other three mentions. He was chasing Delli and their other shooters up top with ever more marginal success. but he wasn't directing traffic like the others, imo.

Also enjoyed our munchkins stealing boards from our bigs. So were SMC's munchkins. So, in a sense, & in their defense, they were being double teamed.

Chicken Ball
01-12-2013, 01:54 PM
Well put, in terms of how the season has gone overall. It's pick your poison now; none of the 3's are doing enough offensively to avoid using the 3 guards together for stretches.

Last night, though, I can see the point when Holt (who I think is one of the most underrated players in the country, partly due to being injured) was going off like that. First time I thought there was too much of it, because GU was preserving a lead and needed D/boards. V. Illinios, offense was needed to come back, and unfortunately 3 guards is the best offensive lineup now.
At the same time, two of the three guards aren't doing enough defensively to avoid using one of our 3's. We're not struggling offensively; we are struggling defensively. So, the logical thing should be to replace an offensively minded player like Stockton, who's been terrible on defense in the last few games, with a defensively minded player like Edi, who's been miserable offensively. We can cover Edi's liability on offense more easily than we can cover Stockton's liability on defense.

ZagLawGrad
01-12-2013, 02:26 PM
Old news. Let's beat Portland!

gamagin
01-12-2013, 02:36 PM
At the same time, two of the three guards aren't doing enough defensively to avoid using one of our 3's. We're not struggling offensively; we are struggling defensively. So, the logical thing should be to replace an offensively minded player like Stockton, who's been terrible on defense in the last few games, with a defensively minded player like Edi, who's been miserable offensively. We can cover Edi's liability on offense more easily than we can cover Stockton's liability on defense.

in the past run, Stocks got MVP at least once, and MF credited him with providing the spark and leadership for two wins The last two games he got two sub of the game honors from Hudson-Santangelo, and I think at least one from the tv talking heads, as well. Not sure about the last one but pretty sure.

So keep on grinding on the wrong guys. THAT makes sense. Not that you don't have allies on this popular canard. Look up assists and steals and decide who did pretty well, or even the best, of the munchkins.

bballbeachbum
01-12-2013, 03:11 PM
stats don't tell the story all the time. Hart spent his minutes banging thru screens and chasing Delly all over the perimeter, played OK against him too, turned him over twice in the first half for example and generally bugged him tho not to perfection of course

Uber, I like your posts, but saying Hart is not effective if he doesn't rebound is not accurate; it depends on the situation. He was matched up vs. SMC's point guard, not a 3 or 4 in the paint, where Hart boxes out and rebounds well for this team; Mike was on the perimeter in that game

Mike was not the guy giving up the O boards, that's what I remember seeing

gamagin
01-12-2013, 03:57 PM
stats don't tell the story all the time. Hart spent his minutes banging thru screens and chasing Delly all over the perimeter, played OK against him too, turned him over twice in the first half for example and generally bugged him tho not to perfection of course

Uber, I like your posts, but saying Hart is not effective if he doesn't rebound is not accurate; it depends on the situation. He was matched up vs. SMC's point guard, not a 3 or 4 in the paint, where Hart boxes out and rebounds well for this team; Mike was on the perimeter in that game

Mike was not the guy giving up the O boards, that's what I remember seeing

Delli went to the locker room with 5 points (i think it was) at the half. MH was REALLY pi$$ing him off, pulling his shirt, stripping, doing an arm dance with him and generally messing with him, just EXACTLY the way Delli likes to mess with others. But several Zags took turns on Delli and overall, it had an effect.

Chicken Ball
01-12-2013, 04:22 PM
in the past run, Stocks got MVP at least once, and MF credited him with providing the spark and leadership for two wins The last two games he got two sub of the game honors from Hudson-Santangelo, and I think at least one from the tv talking heads, as well. Not sure about the last one but pretty sure.

So keep on grinding on the wrong guys. THAT makes sense. Not that you don't have allies on this popular canard. Look up assists and steals and decide who did pretty well, or even the best, of the munchkins.
Never said he didn't do a good job on offense. He was bad on D. And we need a lot more help on D than on O. Do you disagree?

gamagin
01-12-2013, 04:28 PM
Never said he didn't do a good job on offense. He was bad on D. And we need a lot more help on D than on O. Do you disagree?

we needed our BIGS to play D. the whole game. They didn't. Thats where and why things broke down. Had they been in position, and the guards were not, I'd agree with you. count the steals. for starters.

UberZagFan
01-12-2013, 06:03 PM
stats don't tell the story all the time. Hart spent his minutes banging thru screens and chasing Delly all over the perimeter, played OK against him too, turned him over twice in the first half for example and generally bugged him tho not to perfection of course

Uber, I like your posts, but saying Hart is not effective if he doesn't rebound is not accurate; it depends on the situation. He was matched up vs. SMC's point guard, not a 3 or 4 in the paint, where Hart boxes out and rebounds well for this team; Mike was on the perimeter in that game

Mike was not the guy giving up the O boards, that's what I remember seeing

Uber never said Hart wasn't effective. He was responding to gamagin's comment that Hart was the only one that wasn't awful on rebounding out of SD, EH and KO. Uber merely pointed out Hart had zero rebounds while EH and KO had about their averages on the boards. With that said, yes it's an issue if a player like Hart who brings next to nothing offensively to play 18 minutes without a board. And saying he was playing a perimeter game is no excuse....look at the boards Stocks pulled down.

For what its worth, Uber agrees with gamagin after he clarified that Hart played better than the others he mentioned.

Chicken Ball
01-12-2013, 09:07 PM
I'm with you on the bigs' defensive deficiency. But Stockton only had one steal. And I have to think the midget lineup was a big contributor to Holt going off. Bell did a great job n Dellavedova. Someone has to check Holt, too.

BULLDOG#1
01-13-2013, 07:38 AM
When Few goes to the zone, the weakside defenders are doing a terrible job of rotating down and boxing out. Many of the offensive rebounds we give up are because of the zone.

I think Few likes the look of the zone (especially with KO and E with a few fouls) and he used the 2nd half to test out the zone because he had a big lead and Holt's penetration was hurting us.

Sam is never going to be a great defender or a great rebounder. I don't think it's an effort thing, I just think he's that way. We need to take the good with the bad with him

Karnowski needs to get stronger. Even with all that size, smaller opponents seem to snatch rebounds right out of his hands -- even when it looks like he's secured them. Actually that happened to Hart and KO too against SMC... Their bigs (young especially) just ripped the rebound right out of a zags grasp. In tighter officiated games that would mean a foul, but you have to play through whistles (or lack of) and secure the rebound.

This team will never be an outstanding rebounding team, but with the size and effort, it could and should be a decent rebouding team. I'm betting Few is hammering home this issue right now.