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webspinnre
01-09-2013, 10:41 AM
Today's news that no one was selected to the Hall of Fame is absolutely insane. I can understand guys like Bonds and Clemens not getting in, but what possible reason can there be for Biggio and Piazza and Bagwell not getting in? That's crazy.

LongIslandZagFan
01-09-2013, 10:51 AM
Today's news that no one was selected to the Hall of Fame is absolutely insane. I can understand guys like Bonds and Clemens not getting in, but what possible reason can there be for Biggio and Piazza and Bagwell not getting in? That's crazy.

Biggio should make it next year. Bags and Piazza probably next year or the year after. They are getting close. To me the bigger travesty is Jack Morris.

gu03alum
01-09-2013, 10:56 AM
12 people have finished their career with .300+ batting average, .400+ on base percentage, .500+ slugging percentage. 10 of those people are in the hall of fame and are some of the greatest players of all time. 1 is Shoeless Joe Jackson. The other is Edgar Martinez. He is the best right handed hitter of his era. He belongs in the Hall of Fame.

cjm720
01-09-2013, 11:50 AM
I'd put all the roided up guys in...part of a decade plus of baseball and we all know more did but just didn't admit it or get caught. It's part of the history of the game and it will always be talked about.

bullzag23
01-09-2013, 12:03 PM
12 people have finished their career with .300+ batting average, .400+ on base percentage, .500+ slugging percentage. 10 of those people are in the hall of fame and are some of the greatest players of all time. 1 is Shoeless Joe Jackson. The other is Edgar Martinez. He is the best right handed hitter of his era. He belongs in the Hall of Fame.

The fact that no DH is in the HOF is insane, especially when Edgar is at the top of that list. If a position is not worthy of the HOF then why have the position?

webspinnre
01-09-2013, 12:08 PM
Biggio should make it next year. Bags and Piazza probably next year or the year after. They are getting close. To me the bigger travesty is Jack Morris.

Eh, Morris is a solid but unspectacular pitcher who had a couple nice postseasons. His best year ever was basically what Felix did this year. Then he had 2 years that were like what CC Sabathia did this year, then a handful of seasons like what Josh Johnson or Anibal Sanchez did this year. That's all very nice, but it screams out to me very good but not great. Then again, I'm more of a small hall guy, but Biggio, Piazza and Bagwell are all clearly superior candidates to him, and it isn't even close.

webspinnre
01-09-2013, 12:09 PM
I'd put all the roided up guys in...part of a decade plus of baseball and we all know more did but just didn't admit it or get caught. It's part of the history of the game and it will always be talked about.

I would too, and for those we know used, I'd be awfully tempted to put on their plaque something about it. Or put a display regarding it in the same area or something.

LongIslandZagFan
01-09-2013, 12:26 PM
Eh, Morris is a solid but unspectacular pitcher who had a couple nice postseasons. His best year ever was basically what Felix did this year. Then he had 2 years that were like what CC Sabathia did this year, then a handful of seasons like what Josh Johnson or Anibal Sanchez did this year. That's all very nice, but it screams out to me very good but not great. Then again, I'm more of a small hall guy, but Biggio, Piazza and Bagwell are all clearly superior candidates to him, and it isn't even close.

Admittedly, I grew up a Tigers fan... But that aside, he was the best of his era (http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/21450191/the-case-for-jack-morris/rss?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+cbssportsline%2Fmlb_news+%28M LB+Baseball+News%3A+CBSSports.com%29). More so, this realistically was his last chance... Next year is his last ballot chance, Maddux and others will assuredly take some of his votes and he will be out for good.

IrishZagFan
01-09-2013, 01:17 PM
Steroids were a part of baseball whether we like it or not. There are some arguments that steroid era saved baseball, with McGwire, Sosa, and the home run chase......

Create a separate section, remember, and never forget. Education about the dangers and what we've learned about the "sauce" or the "cream"......

webspinnre
01-09-2013, 03:05 PM
Admittedly, I grew up a Tigers fan... But that aside, he was the best of his era (http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/21450191/the-case-for-jack-morris/rss?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+cbssportsline%2Fmlb_news+%28M LB+Baseball+News%3A+CBSSports.com%29). More so, this realistically was his last chance... Next year is his last ballot chance, Maddux and others will assuredly take some of his votes and he will be out for good.

It's a decent argument. However, if you use ERA (not the best stat, but a good starting point), from 1977 to 1994 (his whole career), there were 53 pitchers who threw a total of 2000 innings or more. Would you like to know where Morris ranks on that list? 45th. Now, sure, he threw more innings than them, so if you want, we can narrow the innings (though we should widen the timeline for othe rpitchers who started slightly earlier or ended slightly later. If you widen that timeframe to 1974-1997 (just three years on either side), and increase the IP to 3000 innings, the number of pitchers drops to 13. He's dead-last in ERA among those guys. To me, he was a very good pitcher, who pitched for a long time. That's certainly very nice, but doesn't strike me as a HoFer. During his 18 years in the bigs, his career ERA+ (compared to average) was 105, meaning he was a whopping 5% better than league average.

As another comparison, you may not like WAR, but his best single-season WAR was 6.2, which is a very nice total (as I mentioned, that's basically what Felix did last year). However, in the last 50 years, do you know how many better pitching seasons there have been than that? 251, an average of 5 per season.

Apart from the fact that he pitched alot of innings (valuable), and got a lot of wins (not as valuable), and his big postseason games (though his career playoff ERA is 3.80), I'm not seeing anything that would put him in the elite category.

mtzaga
01-09-2013, 05:26 PM
The BBWAA has a long history of some strange votes. The story in the link is from 1982. I thought Biggio, Bagwell and Piazza were the top 3 this year.

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/sports/year_in_sports/01.13.html

webspinnre
01-09-2013, 07:26 PM
You can see some of the ballots published here:

http://bbwaa.com/13-hof-ballots/

One person voted for Julio Franco! What on earth?

sittingon50
01-09-2013, 09:22 PM
I always scratch my head. A writer won't vote for a guy when he is first eligible but will later on. Uh, how exactly did his stats change?

Glad to see the 'roids guys out, think Rose should be in (though I never liked him).

RenoZag
12-09-2018, 08:16 PM
How the hell does Harold Baines even rate ONE vote for the HOF ??

https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/12/09/harold-baines-mlb-hall-fame-election

Harold Baines was on the ballot as recently as 2011 and received 4.8% of the vote. It was his fifth straight year with a vote total below 10%.

Why, just seven years later, do 16 people get to decide that he's now a Hall of Famer when 95.2% of the voters didn't think he was one?

webspinnre
12-10-2018, 08:03 AM
I've got no problem with Smith, but Baines is baffling.

LongIslandZagFan
12-10-2018, 08:19 AM
I've got no problem with Smith, but Baines is baffling.

Right up there with Phil "Scooter" Rizzuto. Guy never had the numbers to get in. Just spent a ton of time on a team that had a legendary run of WS wins. Spent a good chunk of his broadcast career begging to be in and finally got it. You want to put him in as a broadcaster... sure... no problem with that... but as SS... he just wasn't that great at the plate to deserve it.


Baines resume: less than 3000 hits... lifetime BA of .289... less than 2000 RBIs less than 400 HRs... sorry... don't see it.

But look at Scooter's numbers... his case makes you wonder who he paid to vote him in:

1588 Hits
.273 lifetime
38 career home runs (no that isn't a typo... it is the number thirty-eight)
563 RBIs

His numbers makes Baines look like Ted Williams and Babe Ruth put together. Neither deserves to be in there.

ETA... Baines spending 21 years in the league is the only reason any of those numbers are high.

gu03alum
12-10-2018, 09:13 AM
If Baines gets in then Edgar must get in.

webspinnre
12-10-2018, 09:31 AM
Right up there with Phil "Scooter" Rizzuto. Guy never had the numbers to get in. Just spent a ton of time on a team that had a legendary run of WS wins. Spent a good chunk of his broadcast career begging to be in and finally got it. You want to put him in as a broadcaster... sure... no problem with that... but as SS... he just wasn't that great at the plate to deserve it.


Baines resume: less than 3000 hits... lifetime BA of .289... less than 2000 RBIs less than 400 HRs... sorry... don't see it.

But look at Scooter's numbers... his case makes you wonder who he paid to vote him in:

1588 Hits
.273 lifetime
38 career home runs (no that isn't a typo... it is the number thirty-eight)
563 RBIs

His numbers makes Baines look like Ted Williams and Babe Ruth put together. Neither deserves to be in there.

ETA... Baines spending 21 years in the league is the only reason any of those numbers are high.

The difference is that Rizzuto played defense, and Baines didn't, but yes, I totally agree. In the good news, as 03 says, it makes it harder to vote against Edgar, whose numbers dwarf Baines'.

sittingon50
12-10-2018, 11:08 AM
it makes it harder to vote against Edgar.


Not necessarily; the group that voted Baines & Smith in is a separate committee, numbering 16 people and, as I understand it, only vote every 4 years. I assume if the yearly group doesn't put Edgar in then this group will, down the road.

Really liked Baines, but his #'s don't rise to the "Hall of Fame" level, IMO.

LongIslandZagFan
12-10-2018, 12:15 PM
If Baines gets in then Edgar must get in.

Your lips to God's ear... and that comes from a Mets fan. Edgar needs to be in the HoF

LongIslandZagFan
12-10-2018, 12:18 PM
The difference is that Rizzuto played defense, and Baines didn't, but yes, I totally agree. In the good news, as 03 says, it makes it harder to vote against Edgar, whose numbers dwarf Baines'.

No amount of defense makes up for the total lack of production on the offensive side. I'd be all for him being in as a broadcaster... he defined Yankee baseball in the 70s and 80s with his play by play. To the point that he makes a cameo on the one Meatloaf song people actually know.

RenoZag
12-11-2018, 08:26 PM
Two days ago, the last word on Harold Baines would have been that he had no real shortcomings. Today, he’s been reduced to nothing but shortcomings. If the committee wanted to respect what he accomplished, it should have left him alone.

https://hmmdaily.com/2018/12/10/harold-baines-deserved-better-than-to-be-elected-to-the-hall-of-fame/


There was nothing wrong with him at all. He was a steady, dangerous hitter—a “professional hitter,” the stock phrase was—with a suave left-handed swing. He started as a right fielder, wrecked his knees in a time when wrecking your knees meant your knees stayed wrecked, switched to being a full-time DH, and kept playing and hitting. He hit .271 with 25 homers and 105 RBI at age 23, and hit .312 with 25 homers and 103 RBI at age 40. He slugged .469 against right-handed starters and .449 against left-handed starters. He hit better from the sixth inning on than in the beginning of the game, and better with runners in scoring position and two outs than otherwise.