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jazzdelmar
01-06-2013, 06:44 AM
Stockton was brilliant last night and also played well vs Waves. Indeed, he outplayed KP both nights. That's the good news. The bad is KPs inconsistency and inability to get his own shot. Worrisome is the word. The Zags have the whole regular season to get KP and GB in full contributing mode. The bigs and Hart are so solid, play B plus or better every game.

Hoopaholic
01-06-2013, 07:08 AM
You can take your blinders off now. Stockton played well but was well short of brilliant, he had some out of position breakdowns on defense that gave up open looks and as much as his no look over the head pass was successful, it was not a solid basketball decision, was shaky and taken out in second half when Santa Clara turned up the heat on perimeter as last gasp effort, he is an important role player- another piece of the puzzle

......I personally will take our current style of winning with our guards playing under control, take shots that are provided by the defense, limit turnovers 1 for pangos in 36 minutes last night.........

Reborn
01-06-2013, 07:10 AM
Stockton's stock is rising. Loved the behind the head pass. I like the description of Stockton feeding the beast. Ha ha ah ahhhh. Stockton has also worked really really hard on his defense too. His weakness has been his shooting from the outside, but it certainly has been Pangos' too. And we can always count on David to get down on that hard wood floor.

I am not so quick to judge Pangos. I think he's playing great. His shooting continues to be steaky, but when it's really needed I think we can count on him. This team is definitely led by our post players, and especially Kelly. I congratulate our guards for their desire to forgo their own shooting in order to get the ball into Kelly. We did that last night and won. We did not do that against Illinois and lost.

I was very pleased with Gary's game last night, 50% shooting and 4-4 from the line. I like how he's attacking the basket more now. If he had hit a 3 pt shot then i'd say he played a great game.

jazzdelmar
01-06-2013, 07:30 AM
......I personally will take our current style of winning with our guards playing under control, take shots that are provided by the defense, limit turnovers 1 for pangos in 36


Hoop, I didn't say Stocks was Kyrie Irving. If you're ok with 2-8 and 2-9 from your lead guard then I suppose youre pleased. FWIW, Pangos and Bell are each shooting 41% from the field.

Hoopaholic
01-06-2013, 07:37 AM
I didn't say you called him that...you stated he played brilliantly ....he played solid and was an important role in win.....ko played brilliantly


Yes. 2-9 while it is statistically not high, sometimes taking shots at the right time, even if it does not go in has a positive effect....for example the shot he took from left three point line on fast break..clearly saw dower with weak side rebounding position so took shot dower cleans up the rebound and puts it back in.....or the three shots he took as the shot clock is running down......

Pangos was the third leading rebounder last night and had 1 turnover in 36 minutes.

jazzdelmar
01-06-2013, 07:40 AM
Yes. 2-9 while it is statistically not high, sometimes taking shots at the right time, even if it does not go in has a positive effect....for example the shot he took from left three point line on fast break..clearly saw dower with weak side rebounding position so took shot dower cleans up the rebound and puts it back in.....or the three shots he took as the shot clock is running down......



we agree 100% KO was brilliant. and has been most of the year. im a Pangos fan, I just agonize whens he so inconsistent. when he is on, GU is virtually unbeatable, owing to the -- once again -- brilliance of Kelly and often Harris and Hart.

bigblahla
01-06-2013, 08:00 AM
Seemed to me SCU made a concerted effort to limit KP. Been in the corner of both Stocks and Hart from day one while most here complained about their PT. For the most part Stocks does exactly what the team needs when they need it sans the sometimes flippant pass.

Go!! Zags!!!

Hoopaholic
01-06-2013, 08:53 AM
Agree a key piece of the overall team effort and both fulfill their role well most of the time and that is key to a long lengthy run

Nevtelen
01-06-2013, 09:00 AM
I agree with you, Jazz. Stockton was definitely the better point the last couple of games. I like Pangos a lot, but I think he'll probably remain streaky all season. He had 2 amazing games vs Baylor and @ Ok St, followed by these last two performances. The good thing, though, is that even when his shot isn't falling, he doesn't implode and cause a bunch of TOs. Does need to work on his D, though.

BTW, I thought he did a great job of creating his own shot vs Ok St for much of the game. One of the first times I can remember that happening.

TacomaZAG
01-06-2013, 09:11 AM
All three of our guards are doing exactly what is being asked of them right now. KP is running the offense most of the game, taking the shots that come through the offensive sets, and limiting TO's. GBJ is defending the opponent's best perimeter player, and doing the same things as KP regarding TO's and shots within the offensive scheme.

Stocks is performing his role admirably as well. He will shine brighter during WCC play, where he is more typically matched against an opponent of similar athleticism. His skills and BB IQ are extremely high, and can be demonstrated better when he is not athletically overmatched.

The way KO and EH are playing right now, and their obvious advantage against most of the WCC, the guards just need to keep feeding those guys, limit the TO's, get their shots when available, and play good D. After last night's game, I am much more comfortable that the team will not "cough up a fur ball" on the road in conference play (a road loss not in Provo or Moraga) because of the arsenal of weapons on this year's squad.

Great balance this year, all around. Mental toughness as well........

Go ZAGS

Hoopaholic
01-06-2013, 09:26 AM
Amazing. We are 15-1 and people think the backup role player is a better team quarterback than the starter.......this befuddles me....

Pango stats are better than his stats last year in key pg areas save two( overall % is down by 2% and his overall ppg is down by 1.8 ppt)

Minutes per game exactly same as last year 31.6 minutes
He is attempting .5 shots less per game ( 8 less shots to date than last year)
Shooting 41%from floor. Vs43% last year
Shooting 41% from 3 point line UP from last year
Assists are up from last year 3.7. Vs 3.4
Turnovers are down. 1.4. Vs 1.8
Steals are up. 1.4. Vs 1.2
Shooting 77 % from free throw line

3 games out of 16 with zero turnovers

Has an assist in every game this year
Has only one game with single assist
Has 3 games with 2 assists
Has 13 games with three or more assists

Running a 2.6 assist to turnover ratio

The backup point guard

Playin 19.1 minutes per game
Shooting 43% from floor up from 38 % last year
Shooting 37 % from 3 point line Down from 39% last year
Assist 3.1 ppg up from 2.4
Turnover 1.6 up from last year of 1.5
Steals 2.0 up from .8 last year
Shooting 41% free throws. Down from 59%

1 game out of 16 with no turnovers

2 games with no assists
1 game with one assist
4 games with 4 assists
9 games with 3 or more assists

1.9 assist per turnover


So let me see. We are winning more this year, our starting point guard is playing better statistically in the great majority of the key areas than he did last year, has more assists than the backup pg has. Yet we see people calling the backup pg better, calling him " feeds the beast" ect

I am always amazed in sports how some fans always fall in luv with the backup.....I think it would be a great master thesis in psychology because you see it all the time even when reality is squarely evident

Pango is doing what this team needs to do to win, has improved his game in every area( still has room for improvement as a true sophomore) and has taken this team to a 15-1 and is willing to take less shots per game while passing more...clearly improving his overall game to a very high level

Bushman
01-06-2013, 09:34 AM
I am a huge Pangos fan and am not worried at all. He is not 100% right now and with Kelly drawing more attention, more outside shots should be available for our guards. Kevin does not have to score big to be invaluable.

Most of the offense went through the bigs as it should have. Perimeter shots are not a major part of the progressions and are down the list of options for these sets. Once the bigs get overplayed or doubled, perimeter shots will be available for all, the bigs just have to recognize and dish.

I am loving the ways the team can beat you. It seems we have so many weapons this year there is someone who steps it up each game. All we need is one.

GO ZAGS!!

Bushman
01-06-2013, 09:37 AM
Hoopaholic - your post was AWESOME!!! Thanks for your efforts

U Zig, I Zag
01-06-2013, 09:48 AM
Pangos is about winning. It's obvious that we don't need him knocking down 6 3's to wina a game. I don't think he is playing his best, no - but I am not particularly worried at this point. He is deferrering to other players and we are still winning. I think that stocks stands out in comparison (to some of us) because his play/passing looks a bit more aggressive than Pangos' does.

Larryzag
01-06-2013, 09:50 AM
Hoopaholic - your post was AWESOME!!! Thanks for your efforts

+1!

mgadfly
01-06-2013, 09:55 AM
Coming off the two big games last week Pangos drew a ton of attention. Something Stockton will never do. Such attention changes a game by creating space, preventing double teams, and thereby allowing perimeter players to find passing lanes/angles to big guys.

Remember those great passing lanes when Meech was the point guard?

That said, Stockton had a great week as a back up point guard:
14 pts, 3 reb, 7 assts, 5 stls, 2 tos, 6 for 10 from the field, in 43 minutes of play.

GoZags
01-06-2013, 10:07 AM
Coming off the two big games last week Pangos drew a ton of attention. Something Stockton will never do. Such attention changes a game by creating space, preventing double teams, and thereby allowing perimeter players to find passing lanes/angles to big guys.

Remember those great passing lanes when Meech was the point guard?

That said, Stockton had a great week as a back up point guard:
14 pts, 3 reb, 7 assts, 5 stls, 2 tos, 6 for 10 from the field, in 43 minutes of play.

David Stockton (now healthy) played very well the last couple of games and certainly had "brilliant" moments (i.e. no look, over the shoulder pass to Dower for the score). His solid play was important as much of it came in the first half when KP was down with the "finger in the eye" problem. It's great that the Zags have solid backup players that contribute.

Ekrub
01-06-2013, 10:10 AM
Was that pass a sportscenter top 10?

3zagda
01-06-2013, 10:11 AM
Jazz makes some good points. Stocks has really upped his game this year. I was not a big fan last year, but he has made a much bigger positive impact this year.
Hoop makes good points too. KP is playing well, he's just not had that offensive bump from last year some of us have hoped for.
One thing is KP has had some clutch finishes this year that have kept us at only 1 loss. Has he missed any free throws at the end of games where the other team is fouling us to catch back up? And from the WSU final lay-up, to clutch big shots to help squash runs in other games, we would not be 15-1 with out him IMHO.

HenneZag
01-06-2013, 10:14 AM
We always forget about the huge perfomances the moment he may have a down game or is not hitting the 3 with ease...and I have questioned this myself. Kevin was shadowed very closely in the last cpl games, they made him uncomfortable and it showed but he will bounce back, he always does. With that said, Pangos being guarded closely opens up our post game, we have that luxury this year. It's going to be a "scary" day for opponents when we are clicking on both cylinders.

Stocks does a great job, comes in and provides a spark to the game, creates a different level of flow when he's out there. Yeah sometimes he forces a pass or has a bad turnover, but so does everyone else on this team from time to time. He had an amazing pass to KO yesterday as the defender from SC just turned his back for a split second. Stocks game can be very beautiful to watch and were lucky to have him. Some games he will see 5 minutes, and some maybe 20, but if he is in, there is a reason for it, the staff knows best.

jazzdelmar
01-06-2013, 10:16 AM
We always forget about the huge perfomances the moment he may have a down game or is not hitting the 3 with ease...and I have questioned this myself. Kevin was shadowed very closely in the last cpl games, they made him uncomfortable and it showed but he will bounce back, he always does. With that said, Pangos being guarded closely opens up our post game, we have that luxury this year. It's going to be a "scary" day for opponents when we are clicking on both cylinders.

Stocks does a great job, comes in and provides a spark to the game, creates a different level of flow when he's out there. Yeah sometimes he forces a pass or has a bad turnover, but so does everyone else on this team from time to time. He had an amazing pass to KO yesterday as the defender from SC just turned his back for a split second. Stocks game can be very beautiful to watch and were lucky to have him. Some games he will see 5 minutes, and some maybe 20, but if he is in, there is a reason for it, the staff knows best.



A far better way to express my starting line point. Thanks.

webspinnre
01-06-2013, 10:33 AM
Kevin may not be as spectacular as he was last season, but he sure feels to me to be more steady and reliable, which is all we need. He may go off some nights, otherwise he'll have a solid, productive performance. We are also wonderfully blessed to have one of the better backup PGs in the country in Stockton.

ZagLawGrad
01-06-2013, 10:54 AM
Good posts, Hoop and JDM.

Stocks is a true Zag. 110% effort on every play. Not the most talented player, and his size works against him at times, but he's earned his stripes in my book.

gamagin
01-06-2013, 10:59 AM
Stockton was brilliant last night and also played well vs Waves. Indeed, he outplayed KP both nights. That's the good news. The bad is KPs inconsistency and inability to get his own shot. Worrisome is the word. The Zags have the whole regular season to get KP and GB in full contributing mode. The bigs and Hart are so solid, play B plus or better every game.

spot on. DS & KP are quite different styles. KP plays a safe game. DS is a risk taker. When we need someone to make something happen, it's DS.

And we needed things to happen vs. Pepp and SCU.

madness
01-06-2013, 11:32 AM
Yesterday was my first live game and I was astounded at how difficult Stockton's passes are. I was able to focus on the angles of his dishes and he had one in particular that was similar to an NFL QB on a hitch route to KO. KO flashed to the paint, Stocks lasered one to the block where nobody was, exactly as KO pivoted back, then drop stepped back to the paint for the bucket.

Two words: purely Stockton.

Psychozag
01-06-2013, 12:20 PM
Yesterday was my first live game and I was astounded at how difficult Stockton's passes are. I was able to focus on the angles of his dishes and he had one in particular that was similar to an NFL QB on a hitch route to KO. KO flashed to the paint, Stocks lasered one to the block where nobody was, exactly as KO pivoted back, then drop stepped back to the paint for the bucket.

Two words: purely Stockton.

I had to rewind that one on the DVR when he made it. You know a pass is good when you don't get it the first time you see it. On the other hand, I am not so sure about the behind the back pass. That's one of those plays where you talk about how great it was because Sam was able to catch it. If he hadn't, the talk would be about Stockton needing to make a smarter play in that situation. But, it's also true that of any our guard/big tandems, Sam and Dave are always in tune (here is where we bust out into "Soul Man").

GoZags
01-06-2013, 12:25 PM
I had to rewind that one on the DVR when he made it. You know a pass is good when you don't get it the first time you see it. On the other hand, I am not so sure about the behind the back pass. That's one of those plays where you talk about how great it was because Sam was able to catch it. If he hadn't, the talk would be about Stockton needing to make a smarter play in that situation. But, it's also true that of any our guard/big tandems, Sam and Dave are always in tune (here is where we bust out into "Soul Man").

I went to a few practices when David and Sam redshirted together. I posted it at the time .... It was obvious that those two were forming a bond and learning about each other's game. There's a reason Sam wasn't surprised by that pass.

MDABE80
01-06-2013, 12:37 PM
"Never bet against a Stockton".........BobZag 2009 (paraphrasing)

David is a very good work in progress...as is Kevin. They seem to approach the game differently. Some situations demand David[s approach while other all Kevin to shine. I'm thinking we're luck to have both. I am more concerned with Gary Bell and his disappearance. MVP for the State who did so well last year isn't anywhere near where he should be. I hope he gets better from his injuries. Seems a bit lost on the court though. I thought he'd be more dominant at this point.

But kudos to Coach Few. He's pulling an all-time Houdini this year with his patchwork and substitutions.

Great work and Great post Hoopaholic!

Malastein
01-06-2013, 12:43 PM
Without looking them up, my guess is that Pangos' number continue to be significantly better at home than on the road. Probably more so than almost any other starter we've had in years.

ZagsBaby
01-06-2013, 12:46 PM
Pangos has been pretty inconsistent this year but Stockton hasn't been a lot better. For such a great passer, he has had a lot of bonehead turnovers this year. Also, for the people getting all excited about his no look pass to Dower, that was a horrible pass and an even worse decision. He got lucky. We aren't very strong at the pg position, that's a fact.

jazzdelmar
01-06-2013, 12:48 PM
David is a very good work in progress...as is Kevin. They seem to approach the game differently. Some situations demand David[s approach while other all Kevin to shine. I'm thinking we're luck to have both. I am more concerned with Gary Bell and his disappearance. MVP for the State who did so well last year isn't anywhere near where he should be. I hope he gets better from his injuries. Seems a bit lost on the court though. I thought he'd be more dominant at this point.[/I]



agree doc. certainly not playing like a 4 star. hopefully its merely injuries. he is very unusual in that he is inconsistent within games. two or 3 great plays then some head scratchers. pangos had more shots blocked last night than he made. a real jekyll-hyde season so far. thank god for ds.

ZagLawGrad
01-06-2013, 12:49 PM
Pangos has been pretty inconsistent this year but Stockton hasn't been a lot better. For such a great passer, he has had a lot of bonehead turnovers this year. Also, for the people getting all excited about his no look pass to Dower, that was a horrible pass and an even worse decision. He got lucky. We aren't very strong at the pg position, that's a fact.

I can only imagine the number of teams that can only dream of having a backcourt like ours.

Zags are ranked Top 10---you don't get there with a weak PG or backcourt.

ZagsBaby
01-06-2013, 12:59 PM
I can only imagine the number of teams that can only dream of having a backcourt like ours.

Zags are ranked Top 10---you don't get there with a weak PG or backcourt.

I don't think there are a ton of teams "dreaming" of Pangos and Stockton right now. I am sure there are plenty dreaming of our front court though. Which has carried the team. No need to get defensive. Pangos just hasn't had a good year up to this point.

ZagLawGrad
01-06-2013, 01:13 PM
.... Pangos just hasn't had a good year up to this point.

You must've missed Hoopaholic's post from this morning:

http://www.guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?t=43098


Amazing. We are 15-1 and people think the backup role player is a better team quarterback than the starter.......this befuddles me....

Pango stats are better than his stats last year in key pg areas save two( overall % is down by 2% and his overall ppg is down by 1.8 ppt)

Minutes per game exactly same as last year 31.6 minutes
He is attempting .5 shots less per game ( 8 less shots to date than last year)
Shooting 41%from floor. Vs43% last year
Shooting 41% from 3 point line UP from last year
Assists are up from last year 3.7. Vs 3.4
Turnovers are down. 1.4. Vs 1.8
Steals are up. 1.4. Vs 1.2
Shooting 77 % from free throw line

3 games out of 16 with zero turnovers

Has an assist in every game this year
Has only one game with single assist
Has 3 games with 2 assists
Has 13 games with three or more assists

Running a 2.6 assist to turnover ratio

The backup point guard

Playin 19.1 minutes per game
Shooting 43% from floor up from 38 % last year
Shooting 37 % from 3 point line Down from 39% last year
Assist 3.1 ppg up from 2.4
Turnover 1.6 up from last year of 1.5
Steals 2.0 up from .8 last year
Shooting 41% free throws. Down from 59%

1 game out of 16 with no turnovers

2 games with no assists
1 game with one assist
4 games with 4 assists
9 games with 3 or more assists

1.9 assist per turnover


So let me see. We are winning more this year, our starting point guard is playing better statistically in the great majority of the key areas than he did last year, has more assists than the backup pg has. Yet we see people calling the backup pg better, calling him " feeds the beast" ect

I am always amazed in sports how some fans always fall in luv with the backup.....I think it would be a great master thesis in psychology because you see it all the time even when reality is squarely evident

Pango is doing what this team needs to do to win, has improved his game in every area( still has room for improvement as a true sophomore) and has taken this team to a 15-1 and is willing to take less shots per game while passing more...clearly improving his overall game to a very high level

jazzdelmar
01-06-2013, 01:25 PM
You must've missed Hoopaholic's post from this morning:

http://www.guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?t=43098

Hoops effort notwithstanding, Pangos season just doesn't pass the eye test. Inconsistent at best.

ZagLawGrad
01-06-2013, 01:36 PM
Hoops effort notwithstanding, Pangos season just doesn't pass the eye test. Inconsistent at best.

It's the color of the glasses you're wearing. ;)

ZagsObserver
01-06-2013, 01:37 PM
Pangos has been inconsistent. Love him, but this year you just can't count on him to bring it every game. As for Hoopaholic, he demeaned Stockton a couple years back and was enamored by Meech. If you praise Stocks, expect Hoop to state why he was ineffective in several different ways during the game. It happens virtually every time.

Mantua
01-06-2013, 02:02 PM
Thanks for the great posts Hoop and Jazz.

I would like to mention that Pangos is always guarded like crazy. Bell has certainly been suffering through injury and is often guarded by the very same whom he is assigned to guard, often the opponent's cream of the crop. Im sure that all of the preseason hype our guards received made them even bigger defensive targets. My hope right now is that the bench will blossom in conference games. It was a shame Pepperdine didn't allow us to play the bench more often.

ZagsBaby
01-06-2013, 02:15 PM
You must've missed Hoopaholic's post from this morning:

http://www.guboards.spokesmanreview.com/showthread.php?t=43098

His shooting % is down from last year, and if you Take out the OSU and Baylor games, yikes. Love Pangos, but come on, man. He's not been really good. He has had two great games and one great half. Gonna need more consistency if we want to win a lot of tourney games. 2.5 games out of 16 isn't good.

maynard g krebs
01-06-2013, 02:49 PM
I am more concerned with Gary Bell and his disappearance. MVP for the State who did so well last year isn't anywhere near where he should be. I hope he gets better from his injuries. Seems a bit lost on the court though.

Disappearance? Seems a bit lost?
Ridiculous.

1)Playing hurt affects his production.
2)He's willing to sacrifice his own scoring to defer to the high % shooting post players. I thought he'd be closer to 13-14 ppg this year, but I didn't see KO becoming the leading scorer either.

I'd like to see him a bit more aggressive shooting the ball too, but the way the bigs are shooting it, hard to criticize that.

Good teammate, playing the role asked of him, sound in every phase of the game, major part of 15-1.

bostonzagfan
01-06-2013, 07:51 PM
if pangos goes 1-9 and then 8-9, thats 50%. if he goes 4-9 then 5-9, thats also 50%. but the second set is more consistent than the first.

he has games with shooting percentages of 17%, 18%, 20%, 22%, 25%, 27%. so in almost 40% of GU's games he's had a really poor shooting percentage. jazz's point of being inconsistent is legitimate. he has also had games of 33% and 37.5%, so half of his games are less than 38%, which is inconsistent.

he has also had games of 50% (3 times) and 57%.

He was 58% against OK St and 74%!!! against Baylor. He usually steps up when needed, exception being Illinois (27%)

mgadfly
01-07-2013, 07:11 AM
Using a single game as the sample size to determine "consistency" sets an impossible standard (unless someone is going for "consistently can't make a shot").

He shot 40.1% last year (remember when he was the best player ever on this board?) from three.

He is shooting 41.0% this year. If you use "seasons" as your sample size he is about as "consistent" as they come.

Excluding Mike Hart and his extremely small sample size (offensively speaking), Pangos is our second most efficient scorer (despite taking more than his share of end of possession shots). Only the Great Olynyk is better this season. To put it in perspective, he is a more efficient scorer right now than Adam Morrison (Jr. Yr = 120.0 ORtg).


I think this is once again expectations vs reality. Over the long summer and fall the myth of Kevin Pangos grew to be bigger than the reality of Kevin Pangos. All we expected him to do this season was to play like he did against WSU last season each and every night (33 ppg, 69% from 3 range), and not play like he did against SMC in the WCC final (7 ppg, 3-18 FG, 1-10 3pt range). Or like he did against BYU or Ohio State or ...

He is a very good player. He is improved over last season. Taking a very small sample size and saying he is inconsistent is only fair in the sense that everybody is inconsistent with such sample sizes.

jazzdelmar
01-07-2013, 07:31 AM
Yes many here saw KP as DDII. Not gonna ever happen. He is inconsistent but worse than that, he has flatlined in his development, a familiar Zag malady. BobZags ballyhooed frosh to soph jump rarely occurs, and certainly not with KP. He is a very fine college player. We were hoping for more. Stocks is not nearly the overall player, but when brings the ball up I'm looking for something terrific to happen. Don't get that feeling w KP.

Reborn
01-07-2013, 08:41 AM
Few believes that the most important quality to judge in a pointguard is wins and losses. The Zags are 15-1, and FEw thinks Kevin is playing very good. Remember, the pointguard is the QB of the basketball team. Sometimes they run but mostly they pass. Kevin has had two great games this year where he ran (scored) better than he passed. We probably would have lost both those games if he hadn't shot so well. The fact that Kelly can have huge games is awesome, and when he does I'm really happy for him. But his role as the pointguard this year is to be more of a passer than a runner. Elias and Kelly are having great years, and right now are our strongest scorers.

I was really concerned earlier this year in the shooting of our guards. The concern is gone now, and I think that most of the time when our outside shooting is needed the most, it will be there. I definitely disagree with Jazz's assessment that Kevin has leveled off. Kevin is becoming a better player all the time, and every year he will be better than the previous one. Kevin is a gymrat and is one of the hardest workers on the team, and he hates to lose. For Kevin, "the best is yet to come" is so very true.

Robzagnut
01-07-2013, 10:36 AM
“The primary issue is (guard Kevin) Pangos, to be honest. ... ... But you look at Pangos and someone has to keep it all together. He’s as good as advertised.”

Kerry Keating

cjm720
01-07-2013, 10:49 AM
Yes many here saw KP as DDII. Not gonna ever happen. He is inconsistent but worse than that, he has flatlined in his development, a familiar Zag malady. BobZags ballyhooed frosh to soph jump rarely occurs, and certainly not with KP. He is a very fine college player. We were hoping for more. Stocks is not nearly the overall player, but when brings the ball up I'm looking for something terrific to happen. Don't get that feeling w KP.

Whoa there...he's not half way through his sophomore campaign and there isn't a better work ethic. Not saying he'll be a first round pick or make the NBA but we haven't seen his ceiling IMO.

DADoZAG
01-07-2013, 11:40 AM
Pangos has been inconsistent. Love him, but this year you just can't count on him to bring it every game. As for Hoopaholic, he demeaned Stockton a couple years back and was enamored by Meech. If you praise Stocks, expect Hoop to state why he was ineffective in several different ways during the game. It happens virtually every time.

It may happen every time, but you can't argue against Hoop's points because they are accurate.

There is no doubt that Stocks is having a good season (except at the line), but I too have "demeaned Stockton..." as you call it. He scares the heck out of me and, IMO, is a weakness as much as a strength.

Hopefully staff can continue to get Stock's strengths to shine while covering for his weaknesses and I'll start having the warm and fuzzy feeling like Jazz does. (If not, I'll just drink more Scotch)

By the way, the behind the head pass was horrible and so was the other pass into the paint where the defender "looked away" and I'll bet Stocks got at minimum the STARE from Coach Few on both.

Winning isn't helped by bringing Lady Luck into play any more than she already is. This team is too good, too balanced and too deep to gamble (or force). It's simply not needed.

Go ZAGS!

Zagdawg
01-07-2013, 11:56 AM
Lady luck is present and alive in basketball.....if you don't take advantage of it that is up to you.

You can make yourself more lucky by "threading the needle" on that back door cut or having confidence in the ally oop that your teammate can go get it and throw it down.

But saying that you are not going to do something because it is a very low percentage play...well some people make themselves luckier than others.

Take Stockton with his steals.....he takes the chance at times.....but he has one of the best set of bigs in college basketball to back him up....and he is lucky enough to lead the team and be in the upper class of the league in steals.

A crazy play is only "horrible" when it doesn't work-- otherwise it is AMAZING.

Be "risky" and make your own luck... this is what separates the great ones from just the good ones.

ZagsObserver
01-07-2013, 11:59 AM
You can't argue with the stats? Please. It's always selective, biased and often manipulated. he should be a politician.

ZagsObserver
01-07-2013, 12:11 PM
If you read Hoops many critiques over the years on Stockton you'd think he was terrible with the basketball which leads to many unnecessary turnovers and not all that efficient in leading the offense. Fact is, it's all nonsense. Statistical manipulation if you will and selective viewing at best.

I don't think Stockton is better than Pangos. I don't think anyone here does. Here are the facts, though for 2012-2013:

Stockton's Steals/turnover margin is superior to Pangos
Stockton averages more assists/min than does Pangos
Stockton's Assist/turnover margin is only marginally worse than Pangos

So there you have it. Stockton averages more steals than he does turnovers. Pangos is an even split between the two. There is a risk/reward dynamic in basketball, and Stockton's is positive despite suggestions to the contrary.

Hoopaholic
01-07-2013, 12:15 PM
its ok because zagobserver has selective memory because I have many posts when stockton has done extremely well, also many posts when others have done good or bad....some view the game through stats, other view the game through the "eye test"...I have always been a stat guy or "get it done" kind of person, not necessarily looking for the flashy results.....I tend to view the game through my coaching experience and love to watch the game through that perspective which sometimes comes off as caustic.....but I also know that Stockton is a key component to the teams success, provides a key piece of the puzzle for a deep run and success for this team, but dont go overboard with any of my observations pertaining to any players in my opinion.......

I also strongly stand by my view that we have the best 3 guards in all of the WCC..........each having strengths and weakness and Few is very fortunate to be able to exercise the freedom to pick and choose, move them around according to the type of game, flow of the game or the teams NEED

Hoopaholic
01-07-2013, 12:20 PM
to be honest my concern generally lies with his defense and his riverboat gambling method that tends to expose other players to being out of position and allows for easy 3 point shots, but I also recognize there is a benefit/reward to that type of energy.......(and his free throw shooting)

maynard g krebs
01-07-2013, 12:43 PM
By the way, the behind the head pass was horrible

Larry Bird once said he liked to make high degree of difficulty plays because they could be backbreakers and momentum changers.

I liked the play. Pretty sure DS knew the defender's head was turned. I thought it was a 60-40 pass, with the 60 on the good side, ending up with a 100% shot. So imo it's not really a low % play, compared with, say taking a jumpshot.

DADoZAG
01-07-2013, 12:52 PM
Larry Bird once said he liked to make high degree of difficulty plays because they could be backbreakers and momentum changers.

I liked the play. Pretty sure DS knew the defender's head was turned. I thought it was a 60-40 pass, with the 60 on the good side, ending up with a 100% shot. So imo it's not really a low % play, compared with, say taking a jumpshot.

Ha! Who the heck am I to agrue with Larry Bird!

Go ZAGS!

ZagsBaby
01-07-2013, 12:59 PM
Larry Bird once said he liked to make high degree of difficulty plays because they could be backbreakers and momentum changers.

I liked the play. Pretty sure DS knew the defender's head was turned. I thought it was a 60-40 pass, with the 60 on the good side, ending up with a 100% shot. So imo it's not really a low % play, compared with, say taking a jumpshot.

Wrong. Terrible Pass. Stockton had no idea who was there and where the defender was, HE GOT LUCKY.

Who cares? Watch it over again. it was ugly, forced, and Stocks was bailed out. He still had a very good two games this past week. That one play is really irrelevant. Just stating the facts.

maynard g krebs
01-07-2013, 01:05 PM
flatlined in his development, a familiar Zag malady.

I'd argue the opposite. Every team has players that get better and others that don't. Positive examples:

Has anybody ever seen a player develop like KO?
Adam was a 3 star, outside the top 200
Calvary was a project big, passed on by UW and WSU
Turiaf came in big and athletic but as raw as they come. As Few said, "we've never had a learner like him".
Violette came in as a pudgy kid with I think just Mtn West offers at best.
Dickau went from a 150ish hs player to first team AA
Frahm improved enough to see the floor in the NBA
Gourde- saw him in HS and he didn't look as good as the Seattle Pacific bigs at the time.
I could go on- haven't even touched on the walkons.

One of the tv commentators has a line about how GU wins with guys you never heard of and then replaces them with other guys you never heard of. So I'd say the glass is 7/8 full rather than 1/8 empty.

ZagsBaby
01-07-2013, 01:07 PM
I'd argue the opposite. Every team has players that get better and others that don't. Positive examples:

Has anybody ever seen a player develop like KO?
Adam was a 3 star, outside the top 200
Calvary was a project big, passed on by UW and WSU
Turiaf came in big and athletic but as raw as they come. As Few said, "we've never had a learner like him".
Violette came in as a pudgy kid with I think just Mtn West offers at best.
Dickau went from a 150ish hs player to first team AA
Frahm improved enough to see the floor in the NBA
Gourde- saw him in HS and he didn't look as good as the Seattle Pacific bigs at the time.
I could go on- haven't even touched on the walkons.

One of the tv commentators has a line about how GU wins with guys you never heard of and then replaces them with other guys you never heard of. So I'd say the glass is 7/8 full rather than 1/8 empty.

While I certainly don't disagree w your list, I'd point out only ONE on the list is recent.. KO. The others were all decade+ ago. Recently it has been a serious issue.

maynard g krebs
01-07-2013, 01:14 PM
While I certainly don't disagree w your list, I'd point out only ONE on the list is recent.. KO. The others were all decade+ ago. Recently it has been a serious issue.

OK

Hart.
Stockton.
And watch what happens with Bell/Pangos when they are upperclassmen and more the focus of the offense.

GeorgiaZagFan
01-07-2013, 01:18 PM
Does Stockton take chances? Yes! Do they always work? NO! But I ask you this, is a turnover any worse than having a PG that takes no chances only to have the offense stagnate with a low percentage shot at the end of the clock? I believe KP is playing his best overall since becoming a Zag and the tandem of KP and DS to go along with GBJ is quite good. The few teams that have better guards than the Zags have NO bigs to go with them. 15-1 and getting better!!!

maynard g krebs
01-07-2013, 01:22 PM
Wrong. Terrible Pass. Stockton had no idea who was there and where the defender was, HE GOT LUCKY.

Who cares? Watch it over again. it was ugly, forced, and Stocks was bailed out. He still had a very good two games this past week. That one play is really irrelevant. Just stating the facts.

Well, um, that's, like, just your opinion, man. To borrow a line from the Dude.

I think DS knows where people are likely to be when he turns his head for a second. But that's just, um, like, my opinion, man. Hi risk, sure. But he hit his target, so I'll disagree and enjoy being wrong.

rennis
01-07-2013, 01:30 PM
It's the same thing everyone always said when playing with John Stockton. No matter where you're at on offense, you always have to keep your hands up because you never know when the pass is coming.

Stocktons are deft passers. Sam fumbled that pass cause he didn't anticipate it and didn't have his hands up. If he snared the pass cleanly before finishing, no one would question the pass. IMO

gamagin
01-07-2013, 01:41 PM
It's the same thing everyone always said when playing with John Stockton. No matter where you're at on offense, you always have to keep your hands up because you never know when the pass is coming.

Stocktons are deft passers. Sam fumbled that pass cause he didn't anticipate it and didn't have his hands up. If he snared the pass cleanly before finishing, no one would question the pass. IMO

spot on. It's funny to see signs of his dad in DS. Anticipation. Guts.

My feeling is DS is looking better because those on the other end of his passes have gotten better.

Whether or not he keeps getting better and better remains to be seen. But right now, he is an amazing passer. He has the IQ and he has the vision. The fact that his dad is the best assist and steal guy in the HISTORY of the NBA, and arguably the best point guard ever, only makes the story more interesting.

The fact remains that all the tools are there for DS, including DNA.

And he appears to me to be playing better basketball, against better foes and in larger arenas and under greater scrutiny, than his father ever could even imagine at that stage in his career. And he's doing much, much better than good.

He's doing good with many instances in which he is doing great.

Bocco
01-07-2013, 02:01 PM
My feeling is DS is looking better because those on the other end of his passes have gotten better.

Agreed. There also have been an number of occasions when he has seen an teammate cut to open space, only to have the teammate stop/reverse direction just as he passes the ball. Stocks gets the turnover, but it really wasn't totally his fault.

Hoopaholic
01-07-2013, 02:59 PM
another item that is a reason our guards do not have the higher number of assists than other guards is the mobility and style of offense we run for our bigs....many times our passing entry wise is not a direct line pass affording a simple drop step move garnering an assist....we have active mobile bigs who also use the dribble to further their advantage thus removing assist numbers from all our guards.......

teacher56
01-08-2013, 01:27 AM
I agree Davids Stocktons stock is rising. I have defended this kid since he stepped on the Zags court. It was great to see this kid who resembled his HOF father displaying simular mannerisms especially passing. What he does post Gonzaga will be good, be it basketball or other.

The Stocktons have always fed the beast. I distinctly remember John Stockton feeding Carl Malone. It was fun to watch how many variations of the pick 'n roll they created.



[QUOTE=Reborn;850959]Stockton's stock is rising. Loved the behind the head pass. I like the description of Stockton feeding the beast.

Ekrub
01-08-2013, 01:53 AM
Stocktons pass was awesome and it worked. While you can make the argument that it was forced and a bit of a gamble, it was one play that worked. Doesn't take away from the fact he has played very well this year. He's not the best pg on the team but against certain match ups he is brilliant.

Oh and surprisingly he has been the most efficient of the guards as of late at getting to the rim/finishing in transition.

GeorgiaZagFan
01-08-2013, 05:33 AM
For me this year one of the most enjoyable plays has been Stockton driving against a bigger, more athletic player, a player who fully expects David to be tasting orange leather after they jam it down his throat. Only to be left shaking their head as they hit nothing but air as DS has stretched out and under with a little right handed flip of a layup. :)

gamagin
01-08-2013, 09:00 AM
sub of the game (a sponsored honor) at Pepp (I think it was) and told Heister in the post game interview that he just does whatever is needed to help his team and teammates.

He said he has an advantage in that he watches the game develop at the beginning and knows what needs to be done by the time he goes in. He said he enjoys the challenges and just wants to do whatever it takes to help get a W.

That has become the mantra for this whole team: whatever it takes.

cjm720
01-08-2013, 09:42 AM
It's the same thing everyone always said when playing with John Stockton. No matter where you're at on offense, you always have to keep your hands up because you never know when the pass is coming.

Stocktons are deft passers. Sam fumbled that pass cause he didn't anticipate it and didn't have his hands up. If he snared the pass cleanly before finishing, no one would question the pass. IMO

yep. solid pass...might have made it a tad easier on himself, but who cares. It was a dime and the bucket was made.

Kong-Kool-Aid
02-02-2014, 08:58 AM
Reliving an old thread to demonstrate one prevailing truth..... This board is schizophrenic.

Reborn
02-02-2014, 09:14 AM
Reliving an old thread to demonstrate one prevailing truth..... This board is schizophrenic.

That's one way of looking at it. Or you could look at how Mark Few has described "Stocks." He's either really good or really bad. I think the view of Stockton that the bloggers at GUboard take reflects Few's opinion rather than yours. Just my opinion, of course.