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MDABE80
12-15-2012, 12:37 PM
1. A reliable wing.
2. Who is our leader thus far? Honestly I don't see either of our guards being leaders even though we do have good guards. Elias has been a stellar performer. I haven't seen him as a leader though. As far as the bigs go, is it Kelly? Sam? Karno? Nope none of those. Kelly comes closest.
This is something we may be have overlooked. With Rob leaving, has anyone filled that leadership roll? I cannot see it yet. We surely need one. Leadership by committee rarely works. As we get deeper in the OOC teams or just in the regular season, we'll need one. To me, it's been a glaring deficiency.
Just a thought.

I hope we beat KSU today. MacGruder and Rodriguez we can cover. I hope we play hard defense and don't get drawn into the mayhem. Elias looms large. Elias and Kelly will be key.

Their view..
http://www.kansascity.com/2012/12/14/3966056/kansas-state-gonzaga-basketball.html

DixieZag
12-15-2012, 12:48 PM
Part and pacel the same question:

Who on this team wants the ball with the game on the line?

I agree that we have a bit of a problem here. Kevin is as close as we have right now - but to be fair, he is only a soph. Elias is strong and relatively dependable but he is never going to be a "come on, follow me guys" type.

Kelly is a leader but he hasn't played enough yet with this group to emerge and he needs to hurry if he is going to.

I think we go as far as these guards take us. . . and I think that we will be ok if they realize this and step up and take the onus. Both of them have the ability, intelligence and hard work ethic needed. Kevin's confidence seems to be lacking right now (he'll get it back) and I think Bell is hurting more than we realize, his shooting wouldn't suddenly drop like it has the last few games if he wasn't hurt.

The Bell Jr. that brought us back against Ohio State is probably our best "give me the ball" type but he has to be healthy.

jazzdelmar
12-15-2012, 12:49 PM
See Butler just now, Doc..every kid plays haaaaaard.....

Pleasant Peninsula
12-15-2012, 01:08 PM
Harris is the leader.

Baldwinzag
12-15-2012, 01:11 PM
this is the 1st year I'm all for starting a 3-guard backcourt and let our bigs control their destiny in the paint.

Pangos, GBJ, Dranginis.

Kinda like Butler employing a 3-guard attack vs Indiana today.

Sure, they got beat up on the boards on occasion, yet they ran their offense perfectly and made open shots that couldn't be contained.

We have better bigs than Butler too.

I dunno, I'm just saying how good/functional/executed our offense has been with those 3 (or Stocks at PG for short spurts) in together, along with either Olynyk/Elias, Olynyk/Karnowski, Dower/Olynyk et al...

I think its worth a shot, especially since our offense has sputtered or becomes TO city when GLE receives the ball...or even Hart to some extent, although I love his hustle, defense, and play-making on both sides of the court...I'm just speaking to running our offense at a high level and being fearless with the ball.

fwiw, Dranginis didn't play vs WSU or Illinois....and it showed, imho. Just an opinion

TacomaZAG
12-15-2012, 01:31 PM
KP, GBJ, and Draino give us the best opportunity for what we're missing, a reliable 3-point threat. We need to be able to make 35-40% from behind the arc in order to open up the paint. We have the horses, they just need to start hitting their 3's more consistently.

It starts today.......

Go ZAGS

JPtheBeasta
12-15-2012, 01:35 PM
We are missing consistant guard play. Both Pangos and Bell need to work at getting to the free throw line when their shots aren't falling and probing the defense with the dribble. When we just stand on the perimeter and feed the post, we become very predictable- the defenses will set up shop and collapse when the feed comes in. When the ball wasn't being turned over against Illinois, our guards weren't knocking down perimeter shots. happen When they aren't shooting well and the defense closes out on the 3-point shot, our guards need to put the ball on the floor and make things happen.

godfamilycountryzags
12-15-2012, 01:35 PM
We just need to remember to play like the Butler that beat Indiana and not the Butler that got dominated/killed by Xavier.

9-1, not going to win them all, lets see if the team responds after a less than stellar performance. If not, then I will be worried.

MDABE80
12-15-2012, 01:36 PM
See Butler just now, Doc..every kid plays haaaaaard.....

Ours too.....we just don't have a leader.

jazzdelmar
12-15-2012, 02:07 PM
Ours too.....we just don't have a leader.

Respectively disagree, Doc. Not every Zag plays hard all the time at Butler level..

Bogozags
12-15-2012, 04:09 PM
this is the 1st year I'm all for starting a 3-guard backcourt and let our bigs control their destiny in the paint.

Pangos, GBJ, Dranginis.

Kinda like Butler employing a 3-guard attack vs Indiana today.

Sure, they got beat up on the boards on occasion, yet they ran their offense perfectly and made open shots that couldn't be contained.

We have better bigs than Butler too.

I dunno, I'm just saying how good/functional/executed our offense has been with those 3 (or Stocks at PG for short spurts) in together, along with either Olynyk/Elias, Olynyk/Karnowski, Dower/Olynyk et al...

I think its worth a shot, especially since our offense has sputtered or becomes TO city when GLE receives the ball...or even Hart to some extent, although I love his hustle, defense, and play-making on both sides of the court...I'm just speaking to running our offense at a high level and being fearless with the ball.

fwiw, Dranginis didn't play vs WSU or Illinois....and it showed, imho. Just an opinion

BZ it seems as though KD just doesn't look to the basket...it isn't that he is scared but I think it is because of the GU system, he is the 4th or 5th option on the team. I watch him pass up shots and he doesn't drive to the hoop to create.

Thinking back I remember Manny act the same way when they got the ball...as a deer caught in headlights. At times you see the same from GBJ too. I just think it is the system in which they play.

Question: Why doesn't our #1 PG have more assists?

Maybe I'm old school but I always told my PG's that they are an "artist and the ball is their brush" and told them to go create a master piece. Maybe it's just that he is still learning in his second year.

JPtheBeasta
12-17-2012, 04:28 PM
MIA: Elias Harris' defense. Where is it? I finally got a chance to watch the BIS and he was porous on defense in the first half. They showed some low-lights of our lackluster pick and roll defense against Illinois, and he was the culprit multiple times. I have been impressed with his improved awareness on defense, but the effort just doesn't seem to be as consistant as it should be.

ZagLawGrad
12-17-2012, 05:06 PM
Our guards need to get it going. Soon.

HenneZag
12-17-2012, 05:41 PM
I am very high on KD...we know he has a high Bball IQ, and has the ability to be a great scorer, but he simply is not getting the minutes to show us his skillset in higher profile games...Few is tenative on him, and seems to yank him with any mnor mistake instead of letting him play through the bumps.

EDI- I posted a thread about him a few weeks ago about his regression IMO and was ridiculed for it so I won't say too much. EDI just seems to lack confidence right now, we need a player at the 3 to be consistent everywhere and I don't see it at this point. I think the 3 guard with KD plugged in gives us the best option to score, obviously Hart comes in to provide the intensity and defensive pressure...I think it's time to play more KD in bigger games and see what he brings to the table. What he needs is to come in and contribute in big games to get his confidence kick started, I am looking forward to his progression as the season goes on.

Also, I love GB and KP, but there is some kinks in their game right now as well. GB is so much fun to watch but needs to pull the trigger when he has the chance, he is a much better player when he is aggressive. KP, I love this kid, but it has been frustrating watching him struggle somewhat because we all know what he is capable of.

It's ok though, we have KO!!

ZagLawGrad
12-17-2012, 05:57 PM
....EDI- I posted a thread about him a few weeks ago about his regression IMO and was ridiculed for it so I won't say too much. EDI just seems to lack confidence right now, we need a player at the 3 to be consistent everywhere and I don't see it at this point. ... !!

Edi's play so far has not been good, and, in fact, poor at times. Scary every time the ball comes his way---he takes off out of control or turns the ball over. He has the talent, and can only assume he looks good in practice to have earned a starting spot.

allnet59
12-17-2012, 05:58 PM
Consistent guard play is what we are missing. Guards that can make something happen off the dribble and get to the freebie line more often. Like to see Kylie get more playing time as he has good length with good overall skills that could really help this team step up.

Birddog
12-17-2012, 06:57 PM
EDI just seems to lack confidence right now,
Is that why he's missing dunks? I don't think it's his confidence.


Edi's play so far has not been good, and, in fact, poor at times. Scary every time the ball comes his way---he takes off out of control or turns the ball over. He has the talent, and can only assume he looks good in practice to have earned a starting spot.
I agree with the above for the most part, although in the 2nd half of the K St game, I thought his defense looked pretty good. There were at least a couple moments when he was Mayhem Jr.

Reborn
12-17-2012, 08:18 PM
This team is doin just fine. It's a long season. And we do have leadership. And we are still working on that 3 spot. Mike Hart is the guy that I like best. He's the glue guy, as he is called, and I feel that fits him pretty darn well. The more I see him play, the more I like him. He reminds me a little of Kurt Ramblis, and old Laker. When Mike comes onto the court something happens. He makes it happen. And Elias and Kelly are just Elias and Kelly, the best 4 an 5 in GU history (imo). And because these guys are such a dinamic duo, the team is having to kind of adjust to the reality of this.

Last year it was a guard oriented team, led by Kevin, and Gary had a great part to play. But this year is different. We have two unstoppable forces on the inside, and two guys, Pk and Sam Dower, coming off the bench to add to the power of the GU post players. There has never been anything like this in GU history. As we move forward I think Gary and Kevin will play a bigger part because soon teams will have to start doubling Kelly and Elias, which will open them up more.

I go with Sam F, the man who is announcing alot of games this year. He knows Elias'game very well, and he feels that Elias is the key to this team and I do too. Elias is the most improved player on the team, and has taken on the role of being a brilliant assist man as he feeds off to Kelly or Kevin and Gary when he is doubled. And he is the greatest rebounder I've seen in so long. He is so unselfish this year it blows my mind. Elias never used to pass the ball. And finally, Kelly is developing into a GREAT player. He is raw and yet still scores 20 in 20 minutes. He is so creative with the ball in his hands. The best one on one player on the team.

The reason I like Mike Hart at the 3 is because this team does not need a scorer at the 3. WE have plenty of scorers on this team, and in fact, imo Edi and some times David try to be a scorer when thats not what is needed of them. Mike looks to pass and screen and rebound. He's a great offensive rebounder. He's the ultimate symbol of what a Zag is, in the opinion of so many. He's like a magic man with many tricks.

What excites me is that the season is so young, and these guys are still learning so much, they're learning how to be moulded in a new way. And Mark Few is the Potter creating his work of art. WE have not seen the best of this team, and as amazing as it seems, we probably won't see it until March when it all comes together. But it sure is fun watching them grow, and to just be a very small smart of the journey is just too amazing for me. I didn't like the loss at home at all. I hated it. But I will confess that to see what I saw against Kansas St was worth it. I saw something different then I think alot saw. And I saw something in that game I had not seen before. go get 'em guys.

Go Zags!!!

MickMick
12-17-2012, 08:37 PM
You can't get much more reliable than Mike Hart.

What are you worried about? Putting the ball through the hoop? The #1 ranked FG% isn't good enough?

Yep. I want Mike Hart in there at the most critical moments against the toughest competition because that is what Mike Hart is all about. All he does is make big plays.


If the opponent wants to speed up the game, Edi will run like a horse and throw down transition jams. Lately, opponents have been trying to "ugly it up" and slow things down. This, more than anything, is why Edi has been a non-factor. Wait until we face a running team and you will see a style tailor made for Guy. He is a tool in the tool chest and GU has not needed that particular tool lately. Edi has been making it to the free throw line in transition and has been fairly reliable from the stripe (relative to the rest of the team).

Zags don't need no stinkin' wings.


I like Reborn's post. Spot on Reborn.

IrishZagFan
12-18-2012, 08:09 AM
Can Elias play the "3"?








;)

U Zig, I Zag
12-18-2012, 08:39 AM
Mike Hart is the best #3 for this Zags team. That could be viewed as good (hey, we have someone that can suit up and play the spot) as well as bad (he's a walk-on... shouldn't the #14 team have a 3-star at least starting at the 3?).

Edi and Hart both play a role - but neither is a complete player on both sides of the court. Edi, in fact, has been pretty aweful on offense as of late. He is disconnected and skittish. My heart skips a beat every time it looks like he is going to make a turn to the rim with the ball. He tries to split the D constantly and rarely ever succeeds. He is more athlete than baller... which is fine in the case of his D. But when we need some scoring he can't necessarily provide.

Hart is a different player, his benefit comes mainly from heady play and hustle - and given a choice between Edi's D and everything else Hart brings I vote Hart.

Reborn
12-18-2012, 08:49 AM
I feel that Coach Few doesn't want Elias at the 3 or he would have made the change by now. Elias is not a traditional 4. He's a hybred 4 who has so much freedom to be creative. The way Elias plays the 4 makes it very hard for opposing teams to defend him and Kelly. Kelly is the same kind of player as Elias, and together they are becoming a very difficult tandrum to defend.

Thats why I like Mike Hart. He's not looking to be a scorer. We have so many scorers right now: Olynyk, Harris, Pangos and Bell, Dower and PK. These guys are the ones who need to take the shots. Hart is not going to turn the ball over as much as Edi has been doing, and I think Dranginis is just not there yet. I think he still needs to get more athletic and bulked up in order to defend elite players like Illinois, K State, Ok State and the likes.

rennis
12-18-2012, 08:54 AM
Gerard Coleman is what we are missing right now.

zag944
12-18-2012, 08:58 AM
Sacre's leadership has been mentioned numerous times as something that was a huge intangible for us. I agree with that of course.

That said, Kelly has been a fantastic emotional leader on the court and a fine example of hard work paying off. He plays with a lot of fire that is otherwise fairly absent from our top players, and seems to be well loved by all his teammates. Most importantly however, he seems to be doing all this while playing much better than Sacre ever did.

I shared the concern that leadership would be a problem in those first three games, and in the first 2 or 3 games while KO was testing the water. It's fine now though.

Kiddwell
12-18-2012, 09:05 AM
We miss a bit too many bunnies, IMO. We missed maybe three itty-bitty (mostly uncontested) shots at the rim in the first half of the K-State game. In fact, if memory serves, the Zags' very first shot was an Edi bounce-off-the-rim bunny.

Speaking of Guy Landry, hope we remember how important his contributions were at the season's beginning. He hasn't had as strong (as visible?) an impact in recent games, but Guy's early play was critical.

Another thing worth improvement: treys. What's happened to our corps of outside bombers?

All in all, however, Kiddwell's feeling almost giddy about the Zags' 11-1 start (no offense, Campbell, but Kiddwell's already put that game in the win column).


:]

U Zig, I Zag
12-18-2012, 09:24 AM
Gerard Coleman is what we are missing right now.

If he is everything he has been reported to be, and on this team, I think we are in damn good shape. Even w/o I feel good about it, but we do need a player like him on this team.

titopoet
12-18-2012, 09:45 AM
Harris is the leader.

At BIS, I saw Harris call the other 3 bigs over and talk. It about 45 minutes before game time. It is clear that he is the leader. I think as the team continues to develop it personality, it will be more and more an inside out team, with the 4 bigs being what makes or breaks this team.

Reborn
12-18-2012, 01:12 PM
what good does it do to bring Gerard Coleman into the discussion of what is needed on the team? He's not even playing. If we bring him into the conversation then every team in America could also talk about how good they would be if they had so and so, even though so and so doesn't even play.

We are who we are this year. Let's take these pieces and mold them into a championship team. I think that that's what Few's trying to do. There is still two-thirds of the season left for Few to do this. One thing is certain, this team is NOT peaking early.

ZagaZags
12-18-2012, 01:37 PM
To be honest, I am very happy when Mike Hart is on the court playing the 3. He does so many things the right way. His BB IQ is off the charts.

rennis
12-18-2012, 02:25 PM
what good does it do to bring Gerard Coleman into the discussion of what is needed on the team?

I'm just following my forebears here on the forum...last year we needed KD, this year we need GC, next year it will probably be Bakamus if he redshirts to chart and perfect his threetar.

Hoopaholic
12-18-2012, 02:25 PM
We are missing NOTHING, clean up a little of the loose ends (free throws, couple more made 3 pointers and occaision defensive blunder)

#13 in Points per game at 81.4 Last year #42 at 73.8 PLUS 7.6 PPG
#44 Rebound per game at 39.5 Last year #55 at 36.8 Plus 2.7 RPG
#29 Assist per game at 16.5 Last year #82 at 13.8 Plus 2.7 APG
#2 Shooting percentage 52% last year # 28 at 47% Plus 5% shooting
#36 Assist to Turnover at 1.26 Last year #102 at 1.5 Increase of .21
#7 Efficiency on offense Last year # 24
#31 if FT Attempts per game Last year #29 DECREASED SLIGHT
#7 Pt Per Possession Last year #20

INTERESTING STAT we are turning ball over at 13.1 per game EXACT same rate as last year

57 ppg in the paint from our bigs
24 ppg from outside guards

Scoring is balanced with top two being bigs, next two being guards, next 3 being bigs........nice balance....oh by the way each of the two guards are scoring at the same clip so defenses cannot pick and choice who to double down from both at 10.4 points per game

We have balance, we are inside out and we are improved in almost every single category known to mankind

Defense we are
#69 in nation giving up 60.5 PPG
#33 in nation giving up 9.9 assists per game
#9 in nation giving up rebounds at 28 per game
#47 in nation in defense shooting percentage of 38%

Continue to meld, continue to excel in the roles we will be just fine hitting our stride at the right time.....

Reborn
12-18-2012, 03:03 PM
Very nice post, hoopaholic. Appreciate your work.

MDABE80
12-18-2012, 03:14 PM
Very nice and much appreciated Hoopster.
We still need a wing. Someone who plays like Hart consistently. Maybe it IS Hart. He just gets better and better.

Leadership though is harder to come by. Maybe Jazz is correct.

Hoopaholic
12-18-2012, 07:36 PM
We have three wings each bringing something unique to the court depending on need as dictated by the flow of the game....but I do believe edi will get out of the turnover craze and be a solid contributor garnering many minutes

Reborn
12-19-2012, 07:36 AM
Edi needs to stop thinking about himself and points and begin to think how he can help the team. He needs to follow the game plan and what Mark Few expects from him. I wish he would get tired of sitting on the bench and decide to be a team player. He does have very good defensive tools.

Baldwinzag
12-19-2012, 07:48 AM
Edi needs to stop thinking about himself and points and begin to think how he can help the team. He needs to follow the game plan and what Mark Few expects from him. I wish he would get tired of sitting on the bench and decide to be a team player. He does have very good defensive tools.

I agree with this to some extent; however, I feel Edi doesn't quite understand the offensive game plan and seems genuinely confused when he receives the ball. "should I shoot?" "should I pass?" "should I dribble?" "should I do all three?" "when?" "where?"...you can literally see him thinking through this progression and its painful to watch and for our offensive flow. Our fellow guards sometimes STOP their moving when GLE hunkers down and our offense is required to 'reset', instead of advance through the options. Once this occurs, its passed back out to Pangos or he makes a subsequent TO.

He needs to know before he has the ball. Mike Hart knows where and what he is going to do with the ball when he touches it, same with Dranginis, albeit more hesitant, he makes the right pass along the perimeter and looks down low.

That said, it doesn't explain why Guy Landry Edi isn't a better or more accomplished rebounder at this stage? He should be collecting boards left and right when he's in the game, yet typically ends his minutes with 1, maybe 2 rebs in his 15 mins. Terrible from his position and his attributes. Long, athletic, strong, 6'6", wing...he should be collecting so much more, yet doesn't seem to for some reason.

Reborn
12-19-2012, 08:49 AM
I agree with this to some extent; however, I feel Edi doesn't quite understand the offensive game plan and seems genuinely confused when he receives the ball. "should I shoot?" "should I pass?" "should I dribble?" "should I do all three?" "when?" "where?"...you can literally see him thinking through this progression and its painful to watch and for our offensive flow. Our fellow guards sometimes STOP their moving when GLE hunkers down and our offense is required to 'reset', instead of advance through the options. Once this occurs, its passed back out to Pangos or he makes a subsequent TO.

He needs to know before he has the ball. Mike Hart knows where and what he is going to do with the ball when he touches it, same with Dranginis, albeit more hesitant, he makes the right pass along the perimeter and looks down low.

That said, it doesn't explain why Guy Landry Edi isn't a better or more accomplished rebounder at this stage? He should be collecting boards left and right when he's in the game, yet typically ends his minutes with 1, maybe 2 rebs in his 15 mins. Terrible from his position and his attributes. Long, athletic, strong, 6'6", wing...he should be collecting so much more, yet doesn't seem to for some reason.

Trust me. He understands the game plan. He's confused about whether he wants to follow IT or his own. I agree that he is thinking about something to much, and basketball is not about thinking but about reacting. It is about seeing things in front of you, to the side and yes even behind, and reacting. First of all, he needs to move the ball and make the defense work. When he gets it, he holds it and "thinks." He is NOT in the flow of the game. I am puzzled by his regression from last year. He reminds me of another JUCO guard. I hope he get's it together, but I have my doubts. I agree that he should be a better rebounder.

jazzdelmar
12-19-2012, 08:53 AM
" ' Born-- He is NOT in the flow of the game. I am puzzled by his regression from last year. He reminds me of another JUCO guard. I hope he get's it together, but I have my doubts. I agree that he should be a better rebounder.[/QUOTE]


i assume you are referencing carter. and like carter i don't think we should pine all season in the hope something we thought we saw in Edi as a junior will return. too many other more productive options at the three. im perfectly happy to start hart and sub w drang. edi stops the offense when he gets the ball and this offense needs all cylinders clicking to compete at a high level.

rennis
12-19-2012, 08:58 AM
Edi is definitely in a funk. I hope he snaps out of it.

I'd also like to see Hart take more shots when he is on offense. Keep the defenders honest young man!