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GUZagDenver
12-13-2012, 08:41 AM
Xmas come early? Please let us get in on this action!!

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8742607/seven-catholic-schools-leaning-leaving-big-east-sources-say

ZagLawGrad
12-13-2012, 08:47 AM
Count me out on the National Catholic Conference idea.

GUZagDenver
12-13-2012, 09:01 AM
Count me in!

VaBeachZAG
12-13-2012, 09:03 AM
I just don't see the attraction to GU athletics programs of a Catholic based conference comprised, presumably, primarily of eastern schools. There are not enough quality Catholic based programs in the west to cobble together a conference that would benefit GU. If there is a coming together in the Mountain West of a number of quality programs (i.e., SDSU, UNLV, UNM, etc.) that would be the way for GU to go. GU in an all-Catholic league is a pipe dream that's not gonna happen (in my humble opinion), no matter how much some seemed obsessed with the idea.

GUZagDenver
12-13-2012, 09:08 AM
I just don't see the attraction to GU athletics programs of a Catholic based conference comprised, presumably, primarily of eastern schools. There are not enough quality Catholic based programs in the west to cobble together a conference that would benefit GU. If there is a coming together in the Mountain West of a number of quality programs (i.e., SDSU, UNLV, UNM, etc.) that would be the way for GU to go. GU in an all-Catholic league is a pipe dream that's not gonna happen (in my humble opinion), no matter how much some seemed obsessed with the idea.

You could have an East and West division of the conference. Xavier, Butler, Marquette, Creighton, St. Louis are not that daunting travel wise. How would this conference NOT benefit GU?

Ekrub
12-13-2012, 09:20 AM
I don't like it but If it happens it happens. The status quo has treated us well, but I certainly don't want GU left behind should conference realignment negatively affect us somehow

GoGU
12-13-2012, 09:30 AM
This conference won't be based on Catholic identity. They will likely poach some schools from A-10 (Butler, Xavier, Dayton) and MVC (Creighton). Conference will be majority Catholic but they're doing this for the money, not for the "All-Catholic conference" thing. If faith is the top priority for Gonzaga, they'd almost be better off staying in the WCC.

FlyZag
12-13-2012, 09:39 AM
This conference won't be based on Catholic identity. They will likely poach some schools from A-10 (Butler, Xavier, Dayton) and MVC (Creighton). Conference will be majority Catholic but they're doing this for the money, not for the "All-Catholic conference" thing. If faith is the top priority for Gonzaga, they'd almost be better off staying in the WCC.

Xavier, Dayton and Creighton are Catholic. Butler was founded as a Christian University originally the founders were members of the Disciples of Christ.

GoGU
12-13-2012, 09:56 AM
Xavier, Dayton and Creighton are Catholic. Butler was founded as a Christian University originally the founders were members of the Disciples of Christ.

Yeah, I really just meant that the Catholic identity won't be that important.

zag944
12-13-2012, 10:01 AM
I dont understand the worry over travel. What's a flight to Butler vs a flight to San Diego? An extra hour maybe? We would probably taper down our out of conference schedule a bit anyways since we would be playing in a much more challenging conference with more rpi and sos benefits.

Once and Future Zag
12-13-2012, 10:16 AM
no, no, no.

bad idea.

There's so much bad, it's not even bad, it's in it's own self-contained dimension of wrongness it's not even congruent with our reality.

GU leaving the WCC would be a BAD IDEA

BroncoZAG615
12-13-2012, 10:25 AM
no, no, no.

bad idea.

There's so much bad, it's not even bad, it's in it's own self-contained dimension of wrongness it's not even congruent with our reality.

GU leaving the WCC would be a BAD IDEA

This is a convincing argument.

Kiddwell
12-13-2012, 10:27 AM
An all-Catholic conference smells. Besides that, it stinks. It reeks of "Catholics against the World." :boxing:

In Kiddwell's fragrant and humble opinion. :adored:


:[


<Did the Earth's magnetic poles flip, or something? What the heck is going on with all this talk of disintegrating the WCC and joining the Big East, the Pac-12, the ACC, the Big 12-1, the Federation, the Klingon Empire, the Dominion, the Rebellion, the Little League, the Big Leagues, the NBA, the NFL, the Betty Crocker Cooking Coalition, etc., etc.? Speaking of the latter, Kiddwell is in serious need of a calming, relaxing, chocolate chip cookie.>

webspinnre
12-13-2012, 10:51 AM
I think we need to lose the "all-catholic" focus and instead look it as a basketball-only school focus, and a small school focus, or something like that. That being said, unless there are more western schools, this doesn't make sense to me with travel considerations.

ZagLawGrad
12-13-2012, 10:57 AM
I think we need to lose the "all-catholic" focus and instead look it as a basketball-only school focus, and a small school focus, or something like that. That being said, unless there are more western schools, this doesn't make sense to me with travel considerations.

Agreed. Plus, lots of non-Catholics have GU diplomas hanging on their walls.

CDC84
12-13-2012, 11:05 AM
I dont understand the worry over travel. What's a flight to Butler vs a flight to San Diego? An extra hour maybe?

Plus Gonzaga has its own jet. This makes a huge difference time wise and in terms of comfort. That being said, the extra travel would be a hassle.

When BYU leaves and the WCC adds Denver or some crappy 270+ RPI team, the league will be worse than it was before BYU was added.

I can understand why Gonzaga is exploring other avenues. I can understand why they're reluctant to have their basketball program driving a conference whose administrators keep making bad decisions, business or otherwise.....

Then there is the whole issue of conference realignment and making sure GU is in the best place to survive the changes in the landscape.....

Not saying I am for it or against it, but GU has to explore possibilities.

ZagLawGrad
12-13-2012, 11:12 AM
...I can understand why Gonzaga is exploring other avenues. I can understand why they're reluctant to have their basketball program driving a conference whose administrators keep making bad decisions, business or otherwise.....

CDC, I'm not up to speed on all of the issues about bad decisons, compelling reasons to explore other avenue-----what's the gist? Or did I miss a post/link/article, etc.?

rijman
12-13-2012, 11:25 AM
This "Catholic" conference idea seems to be picking up steam. I would prefer a western based conference with the top non Pac 12 west teams, the best of the MWC and WCC, but this new conference idea is interesting. It sounds like it is going to come together with or without GU, so we can take our time to decide if we want in. A key issue is making sure the new conference qualifies for the auto NCAA bid, which appears to be one of the main concerns.

ldszagfan
12-13-2012, 11:38 AM
Count me in! I'm not even in college anymore (nor a basketball player), so why should I care about how much travel there is going to be? From a pure spectators point of view (which is what most, if not all, of us are) this is an awesome idea!! Could you imagine us playing any of those teams on a regular basis at the beginning of each calender year? My mouth is drooling with the possibility...

Zagdawg
12-13-2012, 11:48 AM
A Basketball conference makes sense--

Auto bid or not- the new conference will be strong enough to get multiple bids anyway.

How much money does the basketball program bring into Gonzaga per year? (to help support the other sports programs)

How much would joining the new conference increase the overall revenue? Just in revenue realized from the dance tourney bids-- with 5 or more teams going dancing each year.

How much would this help with student attendance to the university and sports recruiting across the board?

Would it be a 10 or 12 team conference and who would it make sense to add in the West as a traveling partner?

San Franciso or St Marys? Who else would make sense? Do they have a real gym? Are they a decent media market?

TheCroatian
12-13-2012, 11:49 AM
I really like it. When/if BYU bolts we may wish we would have done this.

I like a west/MW conference of

DePaul
Creighton
Saint Louis
Saint Marys
Gonzaga
Marquette

and East:

Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
St Johns
Seton Hall
Xavier

we d travel with SMC ; TV markets would include CHI, DC, NY, PHILLY, BAY AREA, ST LOUIS

Im pretty sure any increased travel expense would more than be covered by a new TV deal.

This is mouth-watering and although leaving the cozy WCC is scary, it seems a tasty proposition.

CDC84
12-13-2012, 12:02 PM
CDC, I'm not up to speed on all of the issues about bad decisons, compelling reasons to explore other avenue-----what's the gist? Or did I miss a post/link/article, etc.?

Pretty much what I have been saying for awhile:

1) Adding BYU to the league to begin with, knowing there is no way in hell they are staying long term.

2) Adding Pacific to the league, which forces the league to add another RPI drainer when BYU bolts. They should've stuck with an unbalanced league instead of taking the dagger and putting it all the way in. The league will be worse than it was before BYU joined.

3) Signing a secondary TV deal with a TV channel that no one gets, and doing it so close to the start of the season to where they had no bargaining power in the negotiations and may have come out with less money than if they had been better prepared. Two other bad consequences of waiting until the last minute: a) Tip times and TV coverage not being determined for many WCC games until after the season started b) The presence of early afternoon WCC games after late night Thursday games just to get the games on Time Warner Sportsnet. It's not good for teams who travel.

4) The WCC's difficulties with administrative staff retention.

I'm sure there are other things.

Competent administration wouldn't have allowed any of this to occur. It's frustrating when you run an athletics program at a school with great leadership and direction and you are confronted by a league making decisions above your head that lack common sense.

ZagLawGrad
12-13-2012, 12:09 PM
Pretty much what I have been saying for awhile:

1) Adding BYU to the league to begin with, knowing there is no way in hell they are staying long term.

2) Adding Pacific to the league, which forces the league to add another RPI drainer when BYU bolts. They should've stuck with an unbalanced league instead of taking the dagger and putting it all the way in. The league will be worse than it was before BYU joined.

3) Signing a secondary TV deal with a TV channel that no one gets, and doing it so close to the start of the season to where they had no bargaining power in the negotiations and may have come out with less money than if they had been better prepared. Two other bad consequences of waiting until the last minute: a) Tip times and TV coverage not being determined for many WCC games until after the season started b) The presence of early afternoon WCC games after late night Thursday games just to get the games on Time Warner Sportsnet. It's not good for teams who travel.

4) The WCC's difficulties with administrative staff retention.

I'm sure there are other things.

Competent administration wouldn't have allowed any of this to occur. It's frustrating when you run an athletics program at a school with great leadership and direction and you are confronted by a league making decisions above your head that lack common sense.

Interesting, thanks

75Zag
12-13-2012, 12:18 PM
I am starting to warm up to the Catholics Only Conference (COC) idea. If named as commissioner of the new COC league, I can offer the following brainstorming ideas:

Cheerleaders dressed as members of the College of Cardinals?
Communion in the stands at half time?
Instead of athletic shoes, the players must wear sandals like Jesus did?
Concession stands sell loaves and fishes only, plus cups of water? (water into wine conversions subject to local liquor regulations)
Personal fouls categorized as either venial (one shot) or mortal (two shots)?
Players called for technical fouls required to particpate in confession / reconcilliation sacrament before returning to the playing floor?

Just getting started . . .

Go Bulldogs!

Zag4Hire
12-13-2012, 12:25 PM
TV markets would include CHI, DC, NY, PHILLY, BAY AREA, ST LOUIS

Im pretty sure any increased travel expense would more than be covered by a new TV deal.

This is mouth-watering and although leaving the cozy WCC is scary, it seems a tasty proposition.

CatholicTV is looking to fill Tuesdays & Thursdays 7-9. Just sayin'.

cbbfanatic
12-13-2012, 12:43 PM
other things to consider...

it is sounding like the basketball schools stand a very good chance to keep the conference name and (of equal or greater importance) MSG for the conference tournament.

also, early reports/speculation on the tv deal is that espn is offering more per school than the BE bball schools are getting currently. i have seen nothing recently on what the football side could/would command - my guess is not much given the lack of stability or marketable programs.

this tells me two things:

1) espn covets the BE catholic schools' basketball offering more than the other schools' football, almost to the point where the football piece is "dead weight" to them. this wouldnt surprise me since that fball conference is pure garbage and it would make little sense to waste airtime on the conference when ther other real teams are playing.

2) if #1 is true, it suggests to me that espn would market the hell out of this basketball league. maybe as the league for the college basketball purists - a bunch of schools where basketball is not an afterthought - but a primary identity of the school. im thinking this would equate to some pretty good tv real estate.

the more i think about this, the more i think it could be great for GU with the giant caveat that there are significant logistical hurdles to clear. sure, the competition in conference would be much tougher, but isnt that what all of you want?

imagine a Friday night in early March of 2016. it's the BE (or whatever name) semi's in the garden with #21 Gonzaga vs #9 Georgetown playing the early game, and #17 Villanova vs #25 Marquette waiting in semi #2...

there is no offering in vegas that is better than that for the college basketball fan. not even if you start including the UNMs and SD states of the world.

willandi
12-13-2012, 12:52 PM
I like the idea. I am concerned about all the other sports. I doubt the WCC would welcome our Woman's and Men's soccer teams, golf teams baseball etc. Also. How does the Women's B'Ball team fit in? Do they fly with the men's team and flip-flop locations for the 2 games, or do what used to be done, and play the opening game and have the men's game 1/2 hour later (or vice versa)?
Seems like a lot of logistics still to be ironed out. If I was the WCC, I would put on my hair shirt and start self-flagellation. I would beg and plead with Gonzaga to stay, and ask what the Zags want to entice them...but we all know, the WCC doesn't need Gonzaga. They were a nothing before and will be a nothing again, and some folks will like that! :pray:

LongIslandZagFan
12-13-2012, 01:05 PM
Here is yet another indication of exactly how far GU has come in the last 14 years. When a NY sports writer actually says that Gonzaga joining the league makes it more attractive.

When I tell people I am a GU grad, I tell them... "if you told me when I graduated that they'd become what they are now, I'd have asked you exactly how many drugs are you on?"

jazzdelmar
12-13-2012, 01:34 PM
Here is yet another indication of exactly how far GU has come in the last 14 years. When a NY sports writer actually says that Gonzaga joining the league makes it more attractive.


bingo.....and not only does that apply to a putative bigger east conf. but to others around the map as well..prob not the SEC, however.

jazzdelmar
12-13-2012, 01:38 PM
cbb: imagine a Friday night in early March of 2016. it's the BE (or whatever name) semi's in the garden with #21 Gonzaga vs #9 Georgetown playing the early game, and #17 Villanova vs #25 Marquette waiting in semi #2...

there is no offering in vegas that is better than that for the college basketball fan. not even if you start including the UNMs and SD states of the world.


AND WIN OR LOSE ALL THE TEAMS GET A FAVORABLE SEED IN THE DANCE...NO WEST COAST AFTERTHOUGHT.

jazzdelmar
12-13-2012, 01:39 PM
[QUOTE=75Zag;841404]I am starting to warm up to the Catholics Only Conference (COC) idea. If named as commissioner of the new COC league, I can offer the following brainstorming ideas:

Cheerleaders dressed as members of the College of Cardinals?
Communion in the stands at half time?
Instead of athletic shoes, the players must wear sandals like Jesus did?
Concession stands sell loaves and fishes only, plus cups of water? (water into wine conversions subject to local liquor regulations)
Personal fouls categorized as either venial (one shot) or mortal (two shots)?
Players called for technical fouls required to particpate in confession / reconcilliation sacrament before returning to the playing floor?

Just getting started . . .



CAREFUL, THE FEDS ARE VERY PICKY ABOUT CRUCIFIXES IN THE CLASSROOM WHEN IT COMES TO FED MONEY TO SCHOOLS.

VinnyZag
12-13-2012, 02:00 PM
cbb: imagine a Friday night in early March of 2016. it's the BE (or whatever name) semi's in the garden with #21 Gonzaga vs #9 Georgetown playing the early game, and #17 Villanova vs #25 Marquette waiting in semi #2...

there is no offering in vegas that is better than that for the college basketball fan. not even if you start including the UNMs and SD states of the world.


AND WIN OR LOSE ALL THE TEAMS GET A FAVORABLE SEED IN THE DANCE...NO WEST COAST AFTERTHOUGHT.

Except this: I can afford to attend the game in Las Vegas, because airfare and hotels are cheaper (although gambling is very expensive). I can't afford to attend the game in NYC.

Since I can't watch this hypothetical game live, I guess I'll watch it on TV ... except that the game will tip at, what, 4 p.m.? 3 p.m.? I'll still be at work.

Is the GU airplane going to fly the cross country and volleyball teams to games at Xavier or Creighton? Because Pete Thamel of SI (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20121213/big-east-basketball/?eref=sihp) says the plans are for this to be an all-sports league. That gets pretty expensive if you're flying every GU team to D.C. and Cincinnati for half your games.

surfmonkey89
12-13-2012, 02:08 PM
Here is yet another indication of exactly how far GU has come in the last 14 years. When a NY sports writer actually says that Gonzaga joining the league makes it more attractive.

When I tell people I am a GU grad, I tell them... "if you told me when I graduated that they'd become what they are now, I'd have asked you exactly how many drugs are you on?"

After we beat Florida, people in the bars in Phoenix were literally offering to buy the shirts off our backs. And we were equal parts thrilled to be asked, and terrified to actually sell them because we weren't sure we'd be able to find gear to replace what we already had.

I'm not too crazy about leaving the conference, but I suppose we need to at least make sure our name is in the conversation right now until we're sure we're not being left behind

FlyZag
12-13-2012, 02:14 PM
It's officially unofficial, a done deal.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/bigeast/2012/12/13/big-east-conference-basketball-split-catholic-member-schools/1767387/

Malastein
12-13-2012, 02:54 PM
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it doesn't seem like the WCC has been a conference which has really pushed Gonzaga's recruiting. Who was the last good California recruit?

Kiddwell
12-13-2012, 02:56 PM
Wasn't the Big East the mega-conference that was sending 10 teams to the NCAAs every year? Weren't they the 800-pound gorilla of Division I basketball? It seems like every college program worth its salt would want to continue that enormous "hoops" credibility.

Breaking up the Big East is not something Kiddwell would've imagined.


:]

BroncoZAG615
12-13-2012, 02:57 PM
The other thing I'd like to point out is that it doesn't seem like the WCC has been a conference which has really pushed Gonzaga's recruiting. Who was the last good California recruit?

Austin.

Please don't let this turn into an Austin bash session.

Recruiting would go nuts though.

rijman
12-13-2012, 03:25 PM
cbb: imagine a Friday night in early March of 2016. it's the BE (or whatever name) semi's in the garden with #21 Gonzaga vs #9 Georgetown playing the early game, and #17 Villanova vs #25 Marquette waiting in semi #2...

there is no offering in vegas that is better than that for the college basketball fan. not even if you start including the UNMs and SD states of the world.


AND WIN OR LOSE ALL THE TEAMS GET A FAVORABLE SEED IN THE DANCE...NO WEST COAST AFTERTHOUGHT.
I am warming up to this, but I still prefer the idea of a western based conference. A western conference with SDSU, BYU, UNLV, New Mexico, St Mary's and ? is very exciting and better for the Zags travelling fans, but this is just pie in the sky hopeful wishing because that's not on the table, that I know of. The Zags playing the eastern teams in a new conference doesn't mean as much to me, maybe it means more to those from the east coast. Plus I will miss seeing the Zags play at least once a year here in San Diego.

Bogozags
12-13-2012, 03:35 PM
I really like it. When/if BYU bolts we may wish we would have done this.

I like a west/MW conference of

DePaul
Creighton
Saint Louis
Saint Marys
Gonzaga
Marquette

and East:

Georgetown
Villanova
Providence
St Johns
Seton Hall
Xavier

we d travel with SMC ; TV markets would include CHI, DC, NY, PHILLY, BAY AREA, ST LOUIS

Im pretty sure any increased travel expense would more than be covered by a new TV deal.

This is mouth-watering and although leaving the cozy WCC is scary, it seems a tasty proposition.

Why would SMC be picked...they play in a match-box gym not an arena. Have not seen their facilities but they couldn't compare with anyone else on that list...IMO

Each of those Eastern Division teams and Marquette frequently get 5 and 4 star recruits and don't know if we can recruit with them on a regular basis- who was the last 4-5 star recruit from the US that came to GU? GBJ I believe...and how many wouldn't even visit. Just saying don't think it will be easy to say the least...

From a fan's point of view it would be great watching those teams play in the Kennel but at what cost?

Zagdawg
12-13-2012, 03:47 PM
About $25 per ticket ---- face value :)

IrishZagFan
12-13-2012, 03:48 PM
About $25 per ticket ---- face value :)

35.00 to 40.00 when you throw in the Bulldog Club membership.... :)

Zagdawg
12-13-2012, 03:56 PM
Plus the cost of a hot dog and soda-- maybe a beer or two before the game-- you are looking at $100 per game.

kitzbuel
12-13-2012, 04:17 PM
Except this: I can afford to attend the game in Las Vegas, because airfare and hotels are cheaper (although gambling is very expensive). I can't afford to attend the game in NYC.

Since I can't watch this hypothetical game live, I guess I'll watch it on TV ... except that the game will tip at, what, 4 p.m.? 3 p.m.? I'll still be at work.

Is the GU airplane going to fly the cross country and volleyball teams to games at Xavier or Creighton? Because Pete Thamel of SI (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20121213/big-east-basketball/?eref=sihp) says the plans are for this to be an all-sports league. That gets pretty expensive if you're flying every GU team to D.C. and Cincinnati for half your games.

The whole travel issue is not a real factor.

It has been a while since I ran cross country, but we generally did not run against the rest of the conference teams until the conference finals anyway. We ran local meets in WA, ID, MT, and OR. Only conference foe we really saw much of was Portland.

I am pretty sure the volleyball and baseball and soccer teams all fly now anyway. CA and UT are not driving distance.

None of the schools we want to compete with are geographically near us so we are going to fly regardless of what conference we are affiliated with.

SwainZag
12-13-2012, 04:37 PM
Why would SMC be picked...they play in a match-box gym not an arena. Have not seen their facilities but they couldn't compare with anyone else on that list...IMO

Each of those Eastern Division teams and Marquette frequently get 5 and 4 star recruits and don't know if we can recruit with them on a regular basis- who was the last 4-5 star recruit from the US that came to GU? GBJ I believe...and how many wouldn't even visit. Just saying don't think it will be easy to say the least...

From a fan's point of view it would be great watching those teams play in the Kennel but at what cost?

I'm sorry but GU has perennial as good of roster as any team on that list. Yes, occasionally one of those teams gets a couple very high recruits and has a loaded team, but I would take the Zags roster vs. any of those year in/year out.

As much fun as it is pounding on the WCC every year, I know it's not a cake walk, but I would love to see some big games in Jan, Feb and Mar. Will it be tougher, undoubtedly, but to me it could only help the squad and future of the team.

Oregonzagnut
12-13-2012, 04:48 PM
Who knows if this is good, bad or ugly. But for me it is just sad. I thought our society was moving past religious separatism and moving towards inclusion and closeness.

Instead the one single reigning motivator is not GOD......

It is money. Money makes even the same educational institutions who try to teach all inclusiveness and tolerance end up selling out for the dollar.

This has about as much to do with Catholicism as televangelism has to do with Christianity. If I didn't think it was such a cool idea, it would make me sick. This conference craziness will be a mess for the next 10 years.

:bishop_smiley:

ZagNative
12-13-2012, 05:32 PM
I disagree, OZN, at least from Gonzaga's perspective. I think it's about staying relevant on the national stage and not being left out of the picture, especially as talk mounts of coming changes in the NCAA tourney to make it more exclusive.

As far as the banding together of Catholic universities, I don't see that as sinister or exclusionary at all but rather banding together of schools with similar histories and educational missions.

In any event, I'm not seeing a lot of serious discussion of Gonzaga being in the mix. It seems as if people are discounting it because of the remoteness from the Big East schools and the smallness of the Spokane TV market.

I think we'll see a change in the future, if not now then before long, since I don't believe the staff and administration will settle for becoming irrelevant in a changing basketball market.

MBAGael
12-13-2012, 05:34 PM
An update:

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/bigeast14-d7815om-183439151.html

thebigsmoove
12-13-2012, 06:21 PM
Heres our take over at Zagaholic:

The Catholic Basketball Conference (http://www.zagaholic.com/2012/12/the-catholic-basketball-conference.html)

bostonzagfan
12-13-2012, 06:32 PM
i don't know that this board could handle the number of losses GU would have in a tougher conference.

thickman1
12-13-2012, 06:32 PM
neither one of the last two articles mentioned Gonzaga at all. That has to be a bit disturbing. The fact that there isn't a few other schools on the West Coast with the same demographic type as the 7 Big East schools leaving may leave GU out in the cold.

RenoZag
12-13-2012, 06:38 PM
It will come down to CASH. Whatever arrangements garner the most revenue will likely win out. . .

NEC26
12-13-2012, 06:45 PM
I honestly doubt this would ever work unless they wanted a western division and quite frankly I don't think they do. I think this is more wishful thinking than anything else. Really doubt anything comes of this.

brewcity77
12-13-2012, 06:50 PM
Hey guys. Marquette fan here. First of all, I really hope that as the Catholic 7 go forward, Gonzaga is at the top of the list along with Xavier and Butler. Football has made our lives a living hell the past few years and I really want to see this new league go forward with not only quality basketball teams but also ones that show a diligent commitment to their hoops programs.

We're constantly hearing rumored names, and while I understand why VCU and Creighton are the hot names now, I look at what Gonzaga has done over the past 15 or so years, the way the program has grown into a national name brand, and the way you've been able to retain a solid coach, and all I think is "that's the exact type of team we need in this league".

Gonzaga and maybe one other west coast partner (St. Mary's?) are the only schools I would want to consider as basketball only, also. Not sure if your administration would be interested in leaving their other sports in the WCC or another league to save on travel costs, but I think a school with your cachet and hoops quality deserves that type of consideration.

As far as numbers and such, I think a 12-14 team league is ideal, we're hearing a television contract in the realm of $2M-3M per team annually (I'd guess the lower end, but still good for basketball). I love the idea of being able to tip off games that would air in your time zone at 4:00 (7 eastern), 6:00 (8 central), and 8:00 and have a legitimate 6-7 hour hoops block where you could hypothetically watch Georgetown/Butler, Marquette/Villanova, and Gonzaga/Xavier on the same night. It'd be a strong league with the ability to compete with the high major leagues.

The money will be there, the quality teams will be there, and I really truly hope Gonzaga will be there. A strong presence in the West will help make this conference nationally relevant, and I can't think of a stronger team that fits our model better than Gonzaga.

MaroonZag22
12-13-2012, 06:55 PM
Remember how there had been a discussion between MWC and C-USA for football...why not do that with this new basketball entity between the WCC and the new conference and form the first super conference for basketball. You could split it into four regions like this:

Northwest:
Gonzaga
Portland
BYU
USF
Pacific

Southwest:
St. Mary's
Santa Clara
Pepperdine
USD
LMU

Midwest:
Marquette
Depaul
Creighton
Butler
Xavier

East:
Georgetown
Villanova
Seton Hall
Providence
St. John's

You then play everyone in your region twice and 2 teams from every other conference once for 14 conference games, leaving you room to schedule 2 regular games against other teams that tend to be more rivalry in nature to bring you up to 16 total (ie Gonzaga against St. Mary's and Georgetown [the battle of the GUs]).

If the Catholic 7 decided they wanted to add two more out east (i.e. St. Louis or Dayton or VCU) then they could do this:

Northwest:
Gonzaga
Portland
BYU
USF
Denver
Seattle U

Southwest:
St. Mary's
Santa Clara
Pepperdine
USD
LMU
Pacific

Midwest:
Marquette
Depaul
Creighton
Butler
Xavier
St. Louis/Dayton

East:
Georgetown
Villanova
Seton Hall
Providence
St. John's
VCU

Play all teams in division twice and 2 teams from each of the other divisions once for 16 games.

If people didn't want to add both Denver and Seattle, you could try this:

Northwest:
Gonzaga
Portland
BYU
USF
Denver/Seattle U
Creighton/St. Louis

Southwest:
St. Mary's
Santa Clara
Pepperdine
USD
LMU
Pacific

Midwest:
Marquette
Depaul
St. Louis/Creighton
Butler
Xavier
Dayton

East:
Georgetown
Villanova
Seton Hall
Providence
St. John's
VCU

As for the conference tournament...make it a rotation where it has to go to a city in each region every 4 years (i.e. Seattle, San Fran, Cincinnati, New York, then back to say Salt Lake, San Diego, Milwaukee, D.C., etc.) and each division sends its best 3 or 4 teams depending on whether you want a 12 or 16 team tournament.

Yeah...I know this won't happen, but I think that would be a really interesting conference and would cut down on travel problems while giving us the chance to get in a "stronger" conference without cutting ties to the WCC which geographically makes sense!

brewcity77
12-13-2012, 07:05 PM
If it goes divisions, I don't think it'll be that big. One idea that's been floated is a 12-team conference with two divisions. You play home and home with all your division teams for 10 games, then each of the opposing division teams once. Something like this:

EAST

Georgetown
Providence
Seton Hall
St. John's
Villanova
Xavier

WEST

Butler
Creighton
DePaul
Gonzaga
Marquette
St. Mary's

Of course all the names are preliminary, but if the furthest east you came in division was Butler once, that wouldn't be so bad. It would be tough, but a once-a-year East Coast swing over 5-6 days where you played all those road games at once would probably ease on travel costs.

Regardless, I think outside of GU and SMC, the rest of the WCC isn't on the radar. Creighton, possibly Wichita State, the only other western team we're hearing is BYU if they keep football independent, but I think their cable network would be a sticking point.

bigblahla
12-13-2012, 07:13 PM
neither one of the last two articles mentioned Gonzaga at all. That has to be a bit disturbing. The fact that there isn't a few other schools on the West Coast with the same demographic type as the 7 Big East schools leaving may leave GU out in the cold.

Yep but maybe just maybe ESPN might offer some advice to the 7 as to the type of new basketball only conference that would be the most marketable and lucrative and in the process make some suggestions as to other teams that should be involved to maximize the opportunity from the onset. Just maybe. :D

Go!! Zags!!!

Das Zagger
12-13-2012, 07:40 PM
Pretty much what I have been saying for awhile:

1) Adding BYU to the league to begin with, knowing there is no way in hell they are staying long term.

2) Adding Pacific to the league, which forces the league to add another RPI drainer when BYU bolts. They should've stuck with an unbalanced league instead of taking the dagger and putting it all the way in. The league will be worse than it was before BYU joined.

3) Signing a secondary TV deal with a TV channel that no one gets, and doing it so close to the start of the season to where they had no bargaining power in the negotiations and may have come out with less money than if they had been better prepared. Two other bad consequences of waiting until the last minute: a) Tip times and TV coverage not being determined for many WCC games until after the season started b) The presence of early afternoon WCC games after late night Thursday games just to get the games on Time Warner Sportsnet. It's not good for teams who travel.

4) The WCC's difficulties with administrative staff retention.

I'm sure there are other things.

Competent administration wouldn't have allowed any of this to occur. It's frustrating when you run an athletics program at a school with great leadership and direction and you are confronted by a league making decisions above your head that lack common sense.

1) BYU wont be in the conference much longer. When they first came in for hoops, coaches were under the impression it would be for one year and then they bolt for the Big 12. Now, it looks like its back to the MWC.

2) Letting Pacific in was a joke. When BYU bolts, you're right, we'll get another joke of a RPI team (Seattle U?).

3) TV is important, I don't have much to add here.

4) I don't have much to add here.

tl;dr - Don't let BYU's imminent departure stick us in the WCC, get SMC, and hit the road.

Oregonzagnut
12-13-2012, 07:54 PM
I disagree, OZN, at least from Gonzaga's perspective. I think it's about staying relevant on the national stage and not being left out of the picture......

Very correct ZN, This is it in a nutshell. But I am not talking sinister or evil anything, just common collective hypocrisy.

Define relevancy though. (not dictionary) but in NCAA basketball.

Define National Stage.

How much more TV time can we get considering the big TV markets have other options? Our "national stage relevancy" (this) is based on our mid-major, cinderella, tournament success and history. Led by Mark Few. The nation loves the under-dog! And we have NEVER stopped personifying that yet. We don't like it, but the rest of the nation loves it. Is this about money, TV time, Winning games, RPI (the only benefit), or just go with the flow immediate gratification? Are we trying the reverse of BYU's label? They are now a mid-major when they clearly are not, because they joined a mid major conference? What a joke. I fBYU is a mid major, then the meaning of mid major is gone and is purely defined by the conference you are in.

I cannot see us becoming more relevant than we already are unless we get to the final four. Does this conference help us get to a final four? Does this conference water down our brand? Is it that bad to be called a mid major?

ZagNative
12-13-2012, 07:55 PM
There's a ton of good discussion on Marquette's board (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34814.0) (Scroll down), with lots of posters enthusiastic about the Zags joining.

Samples:

Not considering Gonzaga is small minded. You can't have a Catholic Conference focused on strictly basketball and not have Gonzaga. It's one thing if Gonzaga turns down the offer, but I strongly believe they would jump at the chance. Gonzaga as a university gets more eyeballs focused on it, more revenue than what they are getting from the WCC. Their university can build a national brand, they'd be crazy not to want to join.

This isn't 30 years ago, 20 years ago, times have changed. Hell, San Diego Friggin State was about to join the Big East, my god.

Whatever this new conference is going to be, it has to build a brand, it has to market itself. The C7, and in my opinion, add Gonzaga and Xavier, and that's it.

9 teams, true round robin 16 game schedule. From a TV contract standpoint, adding SLU, Creighton, Butler, etc, does nothing. Your name brand teams are the C7 and Gonzaga, Xavier adds a solid team.

Fewer teams=more TV revenue, and more NCAA units revenue.On the other hand, their poll only shows about 10% in favor of the Zags relative to other choices ...

Butler - 259 (19.7%)
Creighton - 225 (17.1%)
Dayton - 125 (9.5%)
UMass (Only if they abolish football) - 9 (0.7%)
Richmond - 13 (1%)
Saint Louis - 153 (11.6%)
St. Joe's - 29 (2.2%)
VCU - 74 (5.6%)
Xaiver - 275 (20.9%)
Gonzaga - 133 (10.1%)
St. Mary's - 23 (1.7%)

Total Voters: 281
Other interesting posts:
Dayton? Really?
For the life of me, I can't figure why some see Dayton as more attractive than Gonzaga. In every important measure - other than distance, which I don't see as being all that important - Gonzaga is better. Better team. Better national profile. Better coach. Better market (in that Gonzaga is the Catholic program in the Pacific Northwest).
Gonzaga's brand extends well beyond Spokane (see yesterday's post about Gonzaga's merchandise sales, which are higher than all but two C7 programs, including Marquette, and all A-10 programs). And Gonzaga puts the conference (and its network partners) in the Pacific Northwest market and gives them option for late-night games.
Dayton's brand does not extend beyond Dayton.

If travel times/costs for the other sports mattered at all, Marquette would have never left the MCC. The extra cost of a flight to Spokane vs a flight to Dayton is not that significant, not when you consider the other benefits of having the Zags.
Gonzaga is 100% must in this new conference, even if they are the only PST team in the new league. They would absoltuely be my first phone call from the C7 to join. Have to have them.

brewcity77
12-13-2012, 08:08 PM
ZN, one thing regarding that poll...it allows multiple choices so you end up while Gonzaga has 10% of the votes, 47.3% of the voters feel Gonzaga should be in. Butler, Creighton, and Xavier are the only clear choices ahead of GU, with St. Louis barely ahead, largely because of our connections with them back to C-USA and the Great Midwest.

kitzbuel
12-13-2012, 08:15 PM
There's a ton of good discussion on Marquette's board (http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34814.0) (Scroll down), with lots of posters enthusiastic about the Zags joining.



On the other hand, their poll only shows about 10% in favor of the Zags relative to other choices ...

Butler - 259 (19.7%)
Creighton - 225 (17.1%)
Dayton - 125 (9.5%)
UMass (Only if they abolish football) - 9 (0.7%)
Richmond - 13 (1%)
Saint Louis - 153 (11.6%)
St. Joe's - 29 (2.2%)
VCU - 74 (5.6%)
Xaiver - 275 (20.9%)
Gonzaga - 133 (10.1%)
St. Mary's - 23 (1.7%)

Total Voters: 281

Other interesting posts:
This vote places GU 5th out of 11 and the voters were asked to pick their top five. Only Dayton is even close of the remaining schools.

Oregonzagnut
12-13-2012, 08:25 PM
It will come down to CASH. Whatever arrangements garner the most revenue will likely win out. . .

This really is the scary part. I thought the NCAA and the administrations are supposed to support amateurism and "fair play".

Don King pays more to the fighters he promotes than the NCAA pays its student athletes after their fight is over.

Apples and oranges I know, but the manipulation, promotion and coercion is similar.

CDC84
12-13-2012, 09:16 PM
This really is the scary part. I thought the NCAA and the administrations are supposed to support amateurism and "fair play".

Well if you believe what certain people do, the NCAA may cease to exist sooner than later.

ZagNative
12-13-2012, 10:21 PM
Good Pat Forde Youhoo story (http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ncaab--catholic-seven-will-regain-identity-with-exit-from-big-east-004320554.html;_ylt=Ak6Tj64KzEThI5TyWVEBSNoLcykA;_ ylu=X3oDMTFoZnA0Y2I3BG1pdANCbG9nIEluZGV4IGJ5IEF1dG hvcgRwb3MDMQRzZWMDTWVkaWFCbG9nSW5kZXg-;_ylg=X3oDMTFrODdzYXZuBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANhdXRob3IEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnM-;_ylv=3)on why the Catholic 7 left the Big East. No mention of the Zag, but an interesting readable piece.
Catholic Seven will regain identity with departure from Big East

After 21 years of being stuck in a corner and marginalized, the Big East basketball schools are standing up for themselves.

Georgetown is one of seven Catholic schools reportedly ready to leave the Big East. (AP)At long last, they're ready to say it.

Nobody puts basketball in a corner.

At least not for two decades.

The Catholic Seven – Georgetown, Villanova, St. John's, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul – are putting down their rosaries and putting on their walking shoes. They are ready to leave the Big East's football-first mentality that has robbed them of their voice. Their silence was bought with league shares of football revenue, but at great cost to their identity, autonomy and dignity.

Pushed to the brink by the panic-induced inventory grab of football schools that are basketball bottom feeders – Tulane, SMU, Houston and Central Florida all qualify, to one degree or another – they're finally ready to find their own way amid the smoking rubble of the current Big East. (Interesting that Tulane's woeful basketball program is universally being scapegoated as the last straw, while chronically inept DePaul gets the privilege of riding the other programs' coattails out the door. The Chicago TV market apparently makes up for a multitude of basketball sins.)

MUCrisco
12-13-2012, 10:35 PM
Another Marquette fan here. I really hope you guys are included and we make a big splash. What do you guys think of this suggestion?
This would be my ideal group. Seven Catholics. Memphis, Temple, Butler, Xavier, Dayton(Use VCU or Richmond if you want.). I think UConn and Cincy are gone. If only one is gone, slash Dayton. Then take Zags, and three of Creighton, UNLV, San Diego St, BYU, St Mary's or New Mexico. Four, four team divisions. Play home and home with your division. Then single game vs rest.

Butler
Marquette
DePaul
Memphis

Xavier
Dayton
Temple
Nova

Providence
St John's
Seton Hall
Gtown

Zags
West Coast
West Coast
West Coast
You would probably have to travel east three times since you can pair up teams in those divisions as travel partners. It seems must people are against schools that happen to have football. I say just write it in the constitution that football will never be invited. Some are saying you guys are too far west. I say, only the additions if Xavier, Butler, Creighton, and Gonzaga excites me. Throw in Memphis, Temple, and a school like San Diego St, and we could have 10-12 tourney teams every year.

ZagNative
12-13-2012, 11:21 PM
Welcome, MuCrisco!

Here's a bit more from Andy Katz (http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=katz_andy&i=TWT&id=8746129&w=1cf55&wjb) I don't think I've seen before:


- On the flip side, let's not glamorize the departing Catholic 7 too much. Georgetown and Marquette are the only two programs who can be counted on to be in the NCAA tournament. Villanova is in a down cycle. St. John's, Seton Hall, Providence and DePaul have hardly been winners for the better part of the past 20 years. For this to work, the seven have to go and grab Xavier, Dayton, Saint Louis and possibly Butler, Creighton and Gonzaga to really have staying power.

- Now two leagues, not just one, will be promising television deals without really knowing what the market commands from their inventory. On a sidenote, the notion that ESPN wanted the Big East to fade is rubbish. ESPN had a huge deal on the table that the Big East rejected. Had it taken the deal, Syracuse and Pitt may never have left for the ACC.

- If realignment never occurred, the Big East would have consistently put the most teams in the NCAA tournament and challenged for an NCAA title every season, much like the SEC in college football. But that's not the college sports world we live in now.

- Bottom line: It doesn't matter who gets the Big East name. What we grew to know is no more.

Mantua
12-14-2012, 12:04 AM
Its likely Gonzaga will be affected by the reorganizing trend whether it jumps to a new conference or not. I feel oddly attached to the WCC after all these years, but things are changing all over the country and I hope that GU isn't left in the dust.

MUCrisco
12-14-2012, 12:06 AM
I would put Butler and Gonzaga then Creighton above SLU and Dayton.

brewcity77
12-14-2012, 06:52 AM
Its likely Gonzaga will be affected by the reorganizing trend whether it jumps to a new conference or not. I feel oddly attached to the WCC after all these years, but things are changing all over the country and I hope that GU isn't left in the dust.

I really feel like we all will be, if we haven't already. I remember how happy I was when Marquette was pulled in from C-USA to the Big East, but really feel like football has soured the experience. For a couple years, you could argue that the Big East was not just the best conference in the country, but the best in the history of the sport, and then it all got blown up because of ESPN greed and football.

Going forward, I really feel that the old conference model is dying. When you look at the major conferences, the Pac-12 is expanding east, the Big 12 reached out to West Virginia, the ACC is in Boston and New York, even the Big 10 is now represented by 2 schools on the East Coast. I think we have to accept that a major conference is going to have to extend beyond the traditional borders. That's why I want Gonzaga in the new Big East. That, and because I feel your values are a good fit with the rest of the C7 and you have a very, very, very, and I can't say very enough, very good basketball team.

thebigsmoove
12-14-2012, 07:26 AM
...I think we have to accept that a major conference is going to have to extend beyond the traditional borders. That's why I want Gonzaga in the new Big East. That, and because I feel your values are a good fit with the rest of the C7 and you have a very, very, very, and I can't say very enough, very good basketball team.

I never realized how much i love Marquette fans, you guys rock!

bigblahla
12-14-2012, 07:40 AM
I seriously don't have much hope GU will be included unless ESPN steps in and offers $$ to have the Zags involved for the obvious reasons. GU is the most marketable brand in the Pacific time zone.

Regardless of what happens our WCC brethren will be up in arms over this. No one is taking SMC as a serious inclusion but other than what seems to be our overture for inclusion it seems just fans of some of the teams involved want GU on board.

BYU won't be considered, too bad as GU and BYU would add some hefty weight to the new conference. Not bashing the Gaels but their facilities don't cut the mustard and they are a long ways away from filling the Oracle against anybody.

When it's all said and done I think we are on the outside looking in. If that is the case then it is time for GU to find a greener pasture before the little guy subdivision becomes reality.

Just my opinion, hope I'm wrong.

Go!! Zags!!!

ZagsObserver
12-14-2012, 07:44 AM
If you don't innovate and constantly look to evolve you get left behind. Look at Kodak. Count me in the "in" crowd

brewcity77
12-14-2012, 07:53 AM
I seriously don't have much hope GU will be included unless ESPN steps in and offers $$ to have the Zags involved for the obvious reasons. GU is the most marketable brand in the Pacific time zone.

What we are hearing now is that a 10-team basketball league sounds most likely. While I see it starting there, I don't see it ending there. I think Xavier and Butler are all but guaranteed invites. I think one of Creighton, Dayton, St. Louis, or VCU will be the third (in that order of likelihood).

But I think after that first year, there will be a move to expand. That's when I think looking at Gonzaga and a WC partner (St. Mary's, maybe BYU) would be most likely. I still think that's a mistake personally. I think adding Gonzaga right now brings the most value to any potential TV rights negotiations and gives immediate star power to a league that right now, let's face it, has Georgetown, Marquette, and a depleted Villanova and that's about it.

Adding GU along with Xavier would give the league 4 teams that you can pretty much pencil into the tournament in November. I really feel that type of quality is more important than geography, especially as all the other conferences are growing their borders as well.

bigblahla
12-14-2012, 08:32 AM
What we are hearing now is that a 10-team basketball league sounds most likely. While I see it starting there, I don't see it ending there. I think Xavier and Butler are all but guaranteed invites. I think one of Creighton, Dayton, St. Louis, or VCU will be the third (in that order of likelihood).

But I think after that first year, there will be a move to expand. That's when I think looking at Gonzaga and a WC partner (St. Mary's, maybe BYU) would be most likely. I still think that's a mistake personally. I think adding Gonzaga right now brings the most value to any potential TV rights negotiations and gives immediate star power to a league that right now, let's face it, has Georgetown, Marquette, and a depleted Villanova and that's about it.

Adding GU along with Xavier would give the league 4 teams that you can pretty much pencil into the tournament in November. I really feel that type of quality is more important than geography, especially as all the other conferences are growing their borders as well.

I love your thought process, although not discussed GU brings a strong woman's program to the table drawing 5000+ per home game and from the looks of recruiting will be a contender in the next couple of years for all the marbles.

Also GU travels in a private jet wish I had a picture you could post on your board to show GU will not have travel issues. Help anyone?

Go!! Zags!!!

brewcity77
12-14-2012, 09:04 AM
I think most people on our end are more concerned with travel issues for non-revenue sports like soccer, cross country, and baseball. I'm guessing they don't all get to use the private jet. Those same people are resistant to the idea of adding GU as basketball-only.

ZagDebate
12-14-2012, 10:20 AM
Its likely Gonzaga will be affected by the reorganizing trend whether it jumps to a new conference or not. I feel oddly attached to the WCC after all these years, but things are changing all over the country and I hope that GU isn't left in the dust.

This is exactly right. While we have not and should not shy away from competition, the formula for the Gonzaga brand is consistently getting on TV (visibility) and making the NCAAs (winning). The proposed realignment changes the equation on how to accomplish that. Many of these Catholic schools are premier names in major metro markets. If given the right platform, they can recruit some awfully good players. The league could thus be MUCH tougher top to bottom, meaning Few & Krause have to use a different lens when scheduling OOC. How many premier OOC games do we want to schedule under such a scenario? At least the 2006-07 team would not have made the tournament out of this new league.

On the other hand, the NCAA itself is not going to exist as we know it. The FBS football schools will break the NCAA at some point and keep the football cash for themselves. Much as we love the NCAA hoops tourney, it is dwarfed revenue-wise by football. In its current form, it will be a casualty of the dash for cash. The only question is when the NCAA dissolves/changes into something entirely different.

When that happens, Gonzaga could be left on the outside looking in for basketball if we stayed with the WCC. We have a much better chance to stay relevant in a national league like this one. Thus, I think we have no choice but to join this new league if given the opportunity and then manage the risks accordingly.

Few's comments on his weekly show are generic, but his hedging suggests (not surprisingly) that he is fully aware of all these factors.

VinnyZag
12-14-2012, 10:26 AM
May be just me, but from what I've read in the past 12 hours, it's starting to sound really unlikely that GU will be part of this. It'll be the Catholic 7 plus some combination of three to five eastern and Midwest basketball schools (Xavier, Creighton, Dayton, Butler, VCU, St. Louis, etc.).

Be honest: This would've been a tremendous stretch. It's, what, a six-hour flight from D.C. to Spokane? You think Georgetown wants to fly its soccer and cross country teams out here?

What's notable is that Gonzaga was interested for the first time. In fact, reading between the lines, it sounds like Gonzaga may have reached out to the C-7, not the other way 'round.

Sounds to me like GU won't be involved this time, but given its involvement in this saga, an eventual exit from the WCC looks more likely than ever. I just hope that if they do leave the WCC, the land somewhere that makes regional sense and is reasonable for fans.

brewcity77
12-14-2012, 10:37 AM
Question for you guys. If the C7 did want to bring in Gonzaga, clearly it would help to have some West Coast partners from a travel perspective. It would make it easier on both coasts if teams could knock out 2-3 road games in one trip rather than going from Spokane to DC, NYC, and Cincy on three separate trips (for example).

Who would you want to bring with you? What other West Coast schools are close enough in proximity and have enough commitment to basketball along with a solid reputation and facilities? Does St. Mary's fit the bill? BYU if they kept football independent? Creighton? Do either Seattle or Portland have enough promise going forward?

Zag 77
12-14-2012, 10:38 AM
The net result of all this may be that GU may end up staying put in the WCC, but a warning shot will have been delivered to the rest of the WCC. The rest of the league may be pissed off at us, but the fact remains that we have been the cash cow for the league for a decade. We had to fight like crazy to get a neutral site tournament for basketball.

I have a feeling that GU was more ticked off than is publically revealed about adding Pacific for no better reason more than getting to an even number for scheduling.

Thus, GU may be delivering a not-too-subtle warning that the WCC Cal schools had better not be making future plans without seriously considering our wishes. In other words, forget about adding crap teams like Seattle U and Denver.

GoZags
12-14-2012, 10:52 AM
Question for you guys. If the C7 did want to bring in Gonzaga, clearly it would help to have some West Coast partners from a travel perspective. It would make it easier on both coasts if teams could knock out 2-3 road games in one trip rather than going from Spokane to DC, NYC, and Cincy on three separate trips (for example).

Who would you want to bring with you? What other West Coast schools are close enough in proximity and have enough commitment to basketball along with a solid reputation and facilities? Does St. Mary's fit the bill? BYU if they kept football independent? Creighton? Do either Seattle or Portland have enough promise going forward?

My guess is BYU (with football independent) and Gonzaga would be travelling partners.

Here's an edited post I'd made last March:
-----------
Last season, Gonzaga and BYU earned the WCC an incremental $5.6 million dollars (2 incremental shares each) in the NCAA money distribution pool. Each share is worth approximately $1.4m and is paid out to the WCC over the next 6 years.

"Automatic" bids -- i.e. winning the conference tourney and getting the auto bid do not count as "incremental shares" since it's "automatic" and every D1 conference in the nation gets one -- and is assured of 1 share (or $1.4m to their conference over a 6 year period). Incremental shares are for at large bids and wins in the dance..... shares that are earned outside the automatic bid.

Since GU's current NCAA tourney streak began in '99, the Zags have earned 21 incremental shares for the WCC (or 1.5 incremental shares per year). That translates to approximately $23m in incremental revenue (over and above the money for automatically qualifying) for the WCC generated by Gonzaga's basketball success.

In comparison -- St. Mary's has earned 4 incremental shares (0.28 per year) during that time frame (their at large bids in '05 and '08, and their two wins in their Sweet 16 year of '10). Pepperdine has earned 3 incremental shares (0.21 per year) in the timeframe (their at large bid and tourney win over Indiana in '00 and their at large bid in '02). USD has earned 1 incremental share (0.07 per year) for their tourney win over UConn in '08. BYU's 2 incremental shares this season translate to 2 per year.

Going back to the expanded field in '84, we'd find LMU with 4 incremental shares and SCU with 2 incremental shares. At the other end of the spectrum, USF and Portland haven't contributed a dime.
------------------
And for this Gonzaga catches nothing but crap from their WCC conference brethren for doing things like a) desiring to host a conference tourney (when they were held on campus) and b) seeking a neutral site.

Gonzaga is a player, and BYU is a player. Zag 77 may have nailed this vis a vis the "shot across the bow". Gonzaga is the Golden Goose -- yet doesn't reap any more benefit than other WCC members .... many of whom have contributed zilch to the Conference's financial success.

It'll be interesting to see how this works out. Particularly in light of the impending move to separate the power schools from the rest in terms of the "dance".

bartruff1
12-14-2012, 11:17 AM
My mom used to warn me..." don't get too big for your britches ". Gonzaga is the one that has benefited from the WCC in many ways, involving all the sports. If you want to do some sort of high wire act, you had better have a safety net and that is the WCC.....If I was the WCC I would say, don't let the door hit you in your arse...

bigblahla
12-14-2012, 11:27 AM
bart ol buddy if the choice is stay in the WCC and be a part of the little guy subdivision or depart and be a part of the big boy division tell me honestly what would be your choice?

I think we're stuck in the WCC which was fine until this subdivision concept materialized. So it's play the best or play the best of the rest. The NIT in perpetuity.

Go!! Zags!!!

Butler Guy
12-14-2012, 11:38 AM
Evidently, Xavier and Butler are done/virtually done and they're going to add another, then possibly another two down the road.

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/goldeneagles/bigeast14-d7815om-183439151.html

bartruff1
12-14-2012, 11:39 AM
I think it is a false choice...IMHO we could stay in the WCC and play in the NCAA Tourney....I don't think March Madness is going to abandon it's unique format....But to answer your question, I would take the WCC and the NIT in a heartbeat...in a NY minute....I think it is nuts to think that Gonzaga/Spokane can raise and maintain the kind of resourses necessary to compete consistently long term with programs in those markets... a occasional trip back to the east coast and elsewhere (for all of our teams) is fine with me....

webspinnre
12-14-2012, 12:22 PM
Here's an edited post I'd made last March:


Since GU's current NCAA tourney streak began in '99, the Zags have earned 21 incremental shares for the WCC (or 1.5 incremental shares per year). That translates to approximately $23m in incremental revenue (over and above the money for automatically qualifying) for the WCC generated by Gonzaga's basketball success.



Good post. This also doesn't include that ESPN TV contract that wouldn't exist, or at the very least would be significantly reduced without Gonzaga and its success.

DixieZag
12-14-2012, 12:31 PM
I think it is a false choice...IMHO we could stay in the WCC and play in the NCAA Tourney....I don't think March Madness is going to abandon it's unique format....But to answer your question, I would take the WCC and the NIT in a heartbeat...in a NY minute....I think it is nuts to think that Gonzaga/Spokane can raise and maintain the kind of resourses necessary to compete consistently long term with programs in those markets... a occasional trip back to the east coast and elsewhere (for all of our teams) is fine with me....

Bartruff, you write some great stuff and I think that anyone that thinks that they "KNOW" the right answer is delusional and so I am not going to pretend to know that I am right so just consider this. . .

Look at what is happening to football schools that field good-competitve teams but are not big/rich/powerful enough to merit involvement in the national TV deals or the national championship process.

I am not really worried about being shut our completely from the national tournament but it is entirely foreseeable that the spaces open to the non-elite national schools will be fewer and fewer in favor of the power teams and that GU will suffer.

And please consider whether you are underestamating GU's national power as a brand and the potential not simply as a Spokane market but as a team claimed from western Montana to the eastern Cascades (even penetrating somewhat the Seattle market) and from Boise to Edmonton/Calgary and interior B.C. (the 2 huge Canadian cities use Spokane Q6 as their NBC channel and thus have the Zag games shown locally and thus there is a Zag following in these cities).

Look at how badly many of these fans and schools want Gonzaga to be associated with them.

I love the way that GU has come up as a national power through the WCC and I would definitely prefer to stay in the WCC so long as the college BB landscape doesn't change too much. But, if the BB landscape gets overhauled like football already has been, I want GU to be proactive and preserve the powerful/beneficial national brand that they have created.

primal23
12-14-2012, 12:44 PM
I like how some other WCC school fans, who have wanted GU gone from the WCC, are now complaining about how could GU want to leave.

bartruff1
12-14-2012, 12:51 PM
Good post. This also doesn't include that ESPN TV contract that wouldn't exist, or at the very least would be significantly reduced without Gonzaga and its success.

That is not nickels and dimes but neither is it a golden goose.

I am quite sure the WCC would be doing just fine without Gonzaga..... and I am not as sure that the last 12 years would have been as good to Gonzaga..... without the WCC.... as a Independent or in " some other" conference.

I can certainly understand why many other WCC Fans resent the Gonzaga Attitude....I know I do.

GoZags
12-14-2012, 01:00 PM
That is not nickels and dimes but neither is it a golden goose.

I am quite sure the WCC would be doing just fine without Gonzaga..... and I am not as sure that the last 12 years would have been as good to Gonzaga..... without the WCC.... as a Independent or in " some other" conference.

I can certainly understand why many other WCC Fans resent the Gonzaga Attitude....I know I do.

You and I disagree then.

I didn't mention the TV money (would have been "piling" on).

Of course the WCC would be just "fine" -- just like the Southern Conference is "fine", just like the OVC is "fine" and just like the Summit Conference is "fine" Funny thing is, I don't see any one of those other smaller conferences with major national t.v. deals.

In addition, much is made of the WCC "coup" in having a successful post season tourney in Las Vegas. Care to guess how many fans came from other WCC schools (not named BYU)? Enough to fill a section or two at the Orleans. Care to guess how many would be watching on t.v.? Especially the semi finals (which didn't used to be broadcast).

There's a reason I used the term "Golden Goose" -- so we disagree.

ZagNative
12-14-2012, 01:13 PM
Bart's a smart guy, and I always pay attention to his posts. Sometimes, though, as in this case, he's just dead-ass wrong, IMHO.

bartruff1
12-14-2012, 01:18 PM
Yes we do....and Roth and the Administration may have the " Gonzaga Attitude"...but...I do not hear that from them...now...I have to add that I am not privy to anything much more than Press Release talk....so I don't know any inside info. I have had my say on the subject....so I will shut up and see what happens..

CB4
12-14-2012, 02:18 PM
Catholic... Xavier, Gonzaga, Creighton, St. Mary's, St. Joe's, Dayton, Saint Louis

OR replace any of the weakest above mentioned teams for...

Non Catholic... Butler, BYU

VCU... I say no for three reasons. Too different of a university than the above mentioned (public, but this factor is not determinative), not established long enough as a basketball power (could be a future bottom feeder), the conference doesn't need any more east coast additions.

Two divisions of seven, east and "west." Fourteen teams. Play home/home w/ every team in the division, plus two games at home vs. east, two on the road at east. This caps the far east coast road trip per year at one. Total of eighteen games.

Gonzaga heads east more than other WC teams. Perhaps this new league could do something different, like start the conference season before Thanksgiving to break up the travel. That way Gonzaga, Creighton, BYU, etc. could schedule non conference games against west coast teams throughout the year (if possible), spreading out long road trips more efficiently.

This is possible, I believe, we would still play our games against WSU, maybe get UW back in the mix (every year), and then start scheduling games against schools like SDSU, Nevada, etc. to play on a yearly basis so that they can fit games in against us during their regular conference schedule (we used to do this with Memphis).

gaels87
12-14-2012, 04:15 PM
Everyone realizes that College sports are going to change entirely when the 4 BCS Conference finally get settled at their 60-64 teams right? No matter what happens in the next 6-8 years with the conference re-alignment, it will all be meaningless when the BCS Conferences create their own Super-Division. The NCAA basketball tournament, as we know it, will cease to exist after that Billion Dollar contract runs out and we will all be playing for scraps. The BCS Schools will include some type of basketball tournament in whatever media package they put together for the new division.

I don't care how good or "high profile" a basketball only conference might be, at the end of the day, the country cares first and foremost about football and there is probably nothing anyone can do to stop it.

titopoet
12-14-2012, 04:35 PM
Nate Silver's take

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/14/a-smart-breakaway-for-big-east-basketball-schools/ (http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/14/a-smart-breakaway-for-big-east-basketball-schools/)

ZagNative
12-14-2012, 05:08 PM
Nate Silver's take

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/14/a-smart-breakaway-for-big-east-basketball-schools/ (http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/14/a-smart-breakaway-for-big-east-basketball-schools/)The part of Nate's piece that interested me most (note Gonzaga's Sagarin rating at the end of the quote):
In the table below, I’ve listed the average power rating for the 16 schools that were to have been Big East basketball members as of the 2014-15 season, based on the formula designed by Jeff Sagarin of USA Today. The power ratings are long-term averages and reflect each team’s performance over the past 10 full college basketball seasons, plus the portion of the 2012-13 season that has been completed so far. (The schools that are considering leaving the conference are highlighted in yellow.)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/12/14/us/fivethirtyeight-1214-bigeast1/fivethirtyeight-1214-bigeast1-tmagSF.png
The seven breakaway schools have had better basketball teams, on average, than the nine teams they would be leaving behind. On average, the basketball-only schools have had a power rating of about 81, according to Mr. Sagarin, as compared to 78 for those that also sponsor Division I football.
But the more important comparison is how these ratings match up against those of teams in different conferences. The ratings for individual teams in each conference can be averaged together to determine a conference’s overall strength.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/12/14/us/fivethirtyeight-1214-bigeast2/fivethirtyeight-1214-bigeast2-blog480.png


Over the past 10 years, the average rating for the six major college basketball conferences has been 80 points or higher, ranging from 80.65 points (the Pac-12) to 83.11 (the Atlantic Coast Conference.). In contrast, no midmajor conference has had a rating higher than 77.96.

Thus, the seven breakaway schools, with an average rating of 81.06, sit right at the precipice of being a major or a midmajor conference depending on which teams might join them in the league."

By breaking away from the conference, the seven basketball schools would be more in control of their own fate. In fact, they would go from seeing their conference preyed upon to being the predators of the college basketball landscape. The new conference would be highly attractive to any college that did not sponsor a Football Bowl Subdivision team but wanted to play in a top-tier college basketball league. One route would be for the new conference to become a collection of Catholic colleges and universities, adding programs like Xavier, Gonzaga and Creighton, all of which have had strong basketball programs, to its ranks. (Catholic colleges and universities are highlighted in yellow in the chart below.)

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/12/14/us/fivethirtyeight-1214-bigeast3/fivethirtyeight-1214-bigeast3-tmagSF.png

MickMick
12-14-2012, 05:11 PM
I applaud the breakaway Big East teams for not allowing football to dictate their future.


If there is a single reason why GU should not be included with teams on the Atlantic Coast, it isn't because of distance, but because of Time Zones and how they coincide with television programming.

There will always be a market for Pacific time zone basketball regardless of how football influences conference alignment. This is the target market for Gonzaga. This is where they get the majority of their television viewers. This is why GU basketball will survive the chaos of large scale conference realignment. This is why GU will ultimately be included in some relevant regional conference if the NCAA post season takes on a "football like" exclusiveness.

I'm sure the "Catholic 7" would love to have GU in their conference if not for the time differential. The idea of broadcasting conference games until midnight, on a work night, is not appealing for either the schools or a network that is specifically targeting a time dependent market audience for their sponsers.

ESPN has propped up the WCC for one reason and one reason only. To satisfy a targeted time slot within the Pacific region for Western audiences. ESPN loves Gonzaga for this reason and they are thrilled that SMC has risen to a level of making ESPN's investment in the WCC worthwhile. The inclusion of BYU makes the WCC a solid television investment as indicated by the ever expanding ESPN coverage.

Given time and ESPN's continued time/effort investment, the WCC will grow their fan base, grow their venues, and grow ESPN's market. ESPN is cultivating the WCC like a garden, awaiting for it to blossom. The last thing they want is for GU to join an Eastern Conference. The broadcasting logistics become much more complicated. They want to reach the most potential viewers possible. This is largely dictated by tip off time relative to regional time zone.

What would be far more palatable, would be a for the WCC to get collectively better and create a "made for televison" WCC/Catholic East challenge where games could be played on ESPN's terms with respect to times and locations.

ZagLawGrad
12-14-2012, 06:07 PM
Easier road, tougher road.

You still gotta win the games to go deep.

Zags aren't going deep just by joining the others jumping ship back east.

Oregonzagnut
12-14-2012, 07:48 PM
Easier road, tougher road.

You still gotta win the games to go deep.

Zags aren't going deep just by joining the others jumping ship back east.

I agree. All this "The grass is greener in a different conference" is ambiguous at best. IMO it could hurt our recruiting the type of kids who want to come to Gonzaga for what we are now.

The staffs, administrations and the Jesuits on a national level must determine what their priorities are. Money? Catholic unity? TV exposure and recruiting? Educational excellence? This conference re-alignment will affect the NCAA forever, like how players in pro football or baseball teams change loyalties on a whim. Thinking the grass is greener elsewhere. But what does Gonzaga need? We just have to keep winning and dominating our conference. We have that now and we are trying to find greener pastures? That is akin to fixing something that is not broken for high risk for minimal rewards. Although the gamble could pay off and maybe recruiting would step up, and our conference became a 4-5 team tourney conference and became a power 6 conference in basketball. Right now the WCC could be a 3 team conference. Plus the fact we did it our way and the WCC is our family. that means a lot for me.

It is a new basketball driven conference idea and it is a long time coming. That is for sure. Basketball schools should not have to follow the football $$$$ just to be relevant. This whole thing worries me in every way yet there are positives too.

I guess it is good we are not ruling out options. People here are saying if we don't act now something terrible will happen like we just all of sudden become irrelevant. Thinking like that is akin to self-fulling prophecy.

Zagdawg
12-14-2012, 08:26 PM
Waiting and hoping the rest of the country does not change is the other option.

Hope that BYU doesn't leave the conference and an RPI anchor isn't brought in to replace them.

Hope that basketball players will continue to come to the WCC vs. a basketball conference full of very good basketball programs.

As long as the Gonzaga administration looks at the options and weighs out the pros and the cons for the overall university things will be fine.

I'm in the camp that says everything happens for a reason.

Let's wait and see how this unfolds.

Oregonzagnut
12-14-2012, 09:36 PM
Waiting and hoping the rest of the country does not change is the other option.


What is the difference in calling that "Being content with ruling our roost." Cup is half full if you are satisfied and in control, or half empty if you see change around you and feel threatened.

Why does what other conferences or conference re-alignments mean bad things for us. It is conjecture. We succeeded and thrived from this "weak and irrelevant" conference. And now we are worried it cannot support our Final Four hopes and that it kills our RPI? The selection committee can't do much to hurt or help us if you look at our history in the Dance. No matter what seed we get, we can't get to the Elite 8 again. It has very little to do with our conference. But it has everything to do with the fact that every year there are 20 teams who are at the next level better than us.

We aren't elite yet. IF someone can tell me that moving conferences is a 100% lock for success then fine. But it MUST be a 51% chance at least. IF there are 51 good things about it and 49 bad things about it, change conferences I guess. I see losing our consistent NCAA bids, losing our consistent conference championships, losing our national TV coverage, and I see losing our recruiting that chooses Gonzaga over 7-8 other catholic universities as it is anyway. I guess I see moving as "cup is half empty". I see it as harmful, but obviously attractive. Like a siren, or medusa that tempts you with happiness, but in the long run, when everyone is out to get $$$$ it causes more harm than good.

Hoopaholic
12-14-2012, 09:59 PM
Want to be the best seek out and compete against the best...consistently playing good competition s better than once in a while

5 pm pct game being broadcast across the nation is far more exposure than a 8 pm pct tipoff...

I am not afraid that leaving a tepid average conference and joining a potential national top 3 conference will only make us better day in day out..,we will rise to the challenge I have no doubt

Additional income benefits the entire university all the way around from the other sports programs to the scholarship opportunities

We lose nothing from a marketing or recruiting perspective in the greater pnw and would gain potential recruiting areas due to the league status, marketing and exposure


My only concern is the smaller, supported athletics not being left in the cold


Run with the big dogs or stay on the porch

Section 116
12-14-2012, 10:04 PM
This article from the Hartford Conn newspaper (where there really is much more important news today) notes information from the Sporting News that BYU could become a member of a new coast to coast all sports league with NBC as a partner. This of course weakens the WCC further, not that BYU exploring other possibilities is any surprise. See paragraph six. There is a denial but who to believe?

http://www.ctnow.com/sports/hc-big-east-future-1215-20121214,0,57287.story

Zagdawg
12-14-2012, 10:58 PM
“We can't be afraid of change. You may feel very secure in the pond that you are in, but if you never venture out of it, you will never know that there is such a thing as an ocean, a sea. Holding onto something that is good for you now, may be the very reason why you don't have something better.”
― C. JoyBell C.

rijman
12-15-2012, 07:55 AM
The San Diego UT reports there will be a conference call today from the "Catholic 7" to discuss their plans on leaving the BE. BE commish Mike Aresco isn't expected to be involved. This should be interesting, although I doubt we learn anything new about GU's possible involvement.

brewcity77
12-16-2012, 08:56 AM
From what I'm hearing, Xavier and Butler are pretty much locks for the new conference. Also hearing that if they want in, Gonzaga will be the first team offered for the 10th spot.

I realize the basketball teams use the charter jet. What about travel for GU's other sports. Do the other teams also fly to their road games? If not, would either the WCC or possibly Big Sky have any interest in GU parking their non-revenue sports, possibly in exchange for non-conference basketball games being scheduled?

BobZag
12-16-2012, 10:04 AM
From what I'm hearing, Xavier and Butler are pretty much locks for the new conference. Also hearing that if they want in, Gonzaga will be the first team offered for the 10th spot.

I realize the basketball teams use the charter jet. What about travel for GU's other sports. Do the other teams also fly to their road games? If not, would either the WCC or possibly Big Sky have any interest in GU parking their non-revenue sports, possibly in exchange for non-conference basketball games being scheduled?

Yes, we fly. Big West Conference would make sense for other sports.

If I may ask, who/where do you "hear" these things? Thanks.

Oregonzagnut
12-16-2012, 11:06 AM
Yes, we fly. Big West Conference would make sense for other sports.

If I may ask, who/where do you "hear" these things? Thanks.

Yes, brewcity, where is the link you "heard" this offer?

brewcity77
12-16-2012, 11:34 AM
Can't link it, but it's someone I trust.

ZagMan in Philly
12-16-2012, 11:51 AM
THE BASKETBALL SCHOOLS

The Catholic 7 are expected to form their own league and seek to add three to five top-flight basketball-dominant athletics programs.

The primary targets would be Butler, Xavier and Dayton from the Atlantic 10. Saint Louis of the Atlantic 10 and Creighton of the Missouri Valley also could be viable but only if the league wanted 12 members instead of 10. VCU of the Atlantic 10 and George Mason of the Colonial Athletic Association would be long shots. Despite major geographic challenges, Gonzaga athletics director Mike Roth said this week that his school would be interested in joining the Big East Seven in a new league, too.
"There's no target number (of members)," Georgetown athletics director Lee Reed said.

"It's really premature at this time to know who might join what we're calling the core group of seven schools,” Harrington said. “We do know that there is interest, but we really will give discussions with other schools great attention in the months ahead obviously. ... We would estimate 10 or 12 members are probably where we would want to be, but we want to make sure we have the strength. That's the important thing."

northsidezagfan
12-16-2012, 11:57 AM
Here's an email about leaving the conference we all got at Georgetown. Not too much substance, pretty much just they will benefit from being in a non-football dominated conference.

December 15, 2012


To the Members of the Georgetown Community

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am writing to share with you recent developments in the Big East Conference, of which Georgetown has been a member since the conference’s founding in 1979.

Earlier today, presidents representing seven Big East universities with strong basketball traditions – Georgetown, DePaul, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John’s, and Villanova – voted unanimously to pursue an orderly evolution to a foundation of basketball schools that honors the history and tradition on which the Big East was established. In the current context of national athletic conference realignment, we believe pursuing a new foundation for our intercollegiate athletics that builds on this tradition of excellence and competition is the best way forward.

Georgetown is honored to be associated with the outstanding group of institutions that have made up the Big East Conference for more than three decades and the students and coaches who represent these schools. They are extraordinary competitors and we have benefited from the talent, skills and dedication they have brought to our community.

At Georgetown, we are extremely proud of our students engaged in intercollegiate athletics. We are grateful to the coaches and staff who support them in our Athletics Department, under the exceptional leadership of Director Lee Reed, as they excel academically and in athletic competition. In the last 16 months alone, nearly 50 percent of Georgetown student athletes earned All Big East academic awards. In addition, 11 Georgetown teams competed in NCAA postseason play, winning national championships in women’s cross country and sailing and most recently playing for the national championship in men’s soccer.

Through their many contributions to our community and accomplishments on the court, on the field and in the classroom, our students and athletics staff represent a history of excellence, which is at the core of our programs and our university. This rich tradition will continue to characterize Georgetown. In this spirit, we look forward to establishing this new foundation and to the benefits it will yield for our intercollegiate athletics and our community.


Sincerely,

John J. DeGioia