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jazzdelmar
12-10-2012, 06:08 AM
serious question: what do the zags and few do so well agst BCS teams in OOC (Maui, Old Spice, et al) tourneys -- the record is splendid -- and so poorly in free standing OOC games vs BCS teams? something about the format, the luck of the draw? thoughts sought.

bartruff1
12-10-2012, 06:26 AM
He catches them with their pants down !!!

jazzdelmar
12-10-2012, 06:30 AM
He catches them with their pants down !!!

very erudite, bart. a worthwhile possibility.

bartruff1
12-10-2012, 06:31 AM
It is very difficult to run and jump ect...with your pants down... believe me..

jpwils
12-10-2012, 06:49 AM
Clemson and Oklahoma are not nearly as good as Illinois this year, bro.

jazzdelmar
12-10-2012, 07:01 AM
Clemson and Oklahoma are not nearly as good as Illinois this year, bro.

think big picture, bro. all the way back to maui.....

Pargo the Destroyer
12-10-2012, 07:09 AM
Teams may not be able to game plan effectively in a tournament format as compared to a scheduled tilt like the one we saw Saturday. I would say Paul is the best individual player the Zags will face this year. The kid will be a leaguer for sure. Our guys didnt knock the shots down, the other team did.

BMAN
12-10-2012, 07:18 AM
Teams may not be able to game plan effectively in a tournament format as compared to a scheduled tilt like the one we saw Saturday. I would say Paul is the best individual player the Zags will face this year. The kid will be a leaguer for sure. Our guys didnt knock the shots down, the other team did.

Paul may be the best player we face but wait until we see Smart and Nash for Oklahoma State. They are both projected first rounders. They are going to give us the same problems.

Reborn
12-10-2012, 08:04 AM
The talent in the tournaments have alot to do with it. In the last Maui Invitational that the Zags won, a few years ago when Matt B was a senior, the Maui field was kind of average about how the Old Spice Classic was this year. When the Zags beat Tennessee in the Old Spice Classic I believe Tennessee was a little down that year....Can't remember for sure. But I know that that Gonzaga team was really good.

And when Morrison's Zags got second place in the Maui Invitational when they had that great game with Michigan St., that Zag team was also really great. They did lose to UCONN in the finals by one point on a lucky shot. I know UCONN made the final 4 that year and may have been national champs.

If you go back just a few years, the Zags have always had to go on the road to play high quality opponents and of course it's very difficult to win on the home courts of those kinds of schools (BCS schools). That's probably why we lost to them. It's only been in the last 3 years I think that the Zags have been able to get some of those teams to come here, and we have won most of those games in the Kennel II. WE have only lost two of those games in the last 3 years and they were to two teams who turned out to be better than the Zags. My guess is that Illinois is also better than the Zags this year, but we won't know that until the end of the year. They are a senior led team, and very experienced. The Zags are young. They are not babies but definitely younger than Illinois. Michigan St and San Diego St were also senior led teams. Both of those two teams made at least the Sweet 16 the year that they beat the Zags, and Gonzaga won a first round game and that was it.

Im not sure if this helps Jazz, but I tried.

bartruff1
12-10-2012, 08:16 AM
serious question: what do the zags and few do so well agst BCS teams in OOC (Maui, Old Spice, et al) tourneys -- the record is splendid -- and so poorly in free standing OOC games vs BCS teams? something about the format, the luck of the draw? thoughts sought.

I don't know...but it has happened so often that it is a pattern, so there has to be a reason....

It might be that the BCS teams have more upside because of their talent/skills and so they continue to improve thru the season and Gonzaga hits it's ceiling sooner ??? They have more potential ???

You go out to Del Mar and those thoroughbreds are pretty spirited... it might take some time to put a harness on them and get them to pull the wagon .?

I really expect Clemson and West Virginia to get much better because of their athletes.....and I do not expect Illinois to finish better than 4th in the BIG.... live by the three will likely not work consistantly against those teams...

In any case ,it sure is fun to have that kind of early success...

75Zag
12-10-2012, 08:34 AM
For whatever reason, it seems to me that the level of talent GU has faced at holiday tournaments over the last couple years is not all that high. The Maui tournament next fall with Baylor and 'Cuse could/should present a strong challenge, and winning the Maui Classic in 2013 would be a very good omen for GU.

Go Bulldogs!

Ezag
12-10-2012, 08:59 AM
Clemson and Oklahoma are not nearly as good as Illinois this year, bro.

Neither was WSU (supposedly) and almost .....

jazzdelmar
12-10-2012, 09:24 AM
all good points. i think the main reason is that the BCS teams are still tinkering since they know their NCAA fate hinges on how they do in their league/playoff, and not on beating the zags in november or even winning a tourney. so "pants down" is as good an explanation as any. but the obverse -- losing at home to BCS teams (SDS, Wake, MSU, Illni) is worrying since it took years to get them to come to the kennel.

cjm720
12-10-2012, 09:36 AM
luck of the draw and an isolated opponent that has time to study what we do.

Zag4Hire
12-10-2012, 10:15 AM
The games were either a star going off (SDSU, MSU, and ILL), a crazy change of events (Wake), and an awful shooting performance (WSU - 2007). I am not reading into it too much--just more of sometimes you eat the bear type dilemma.

I am not going to MMQB the game but one foul on Paul doesn't cut it. Once Paul made the crazy bank 3, everybody had the 'uh-oh' face going because you knew he was going to go off. The staff should have immediately invoked the 'Thabeet Protocol' and found ways to draw contact from Paul (who had some awesome defensive plays as well).

WallaWallaZag
12-10-2012, 04:48 PM
all good points. i think the main reason is that the BCS teams are still tinkering since they know their NCAA fate hinges on how they do in their league/playoff, and not on beating the zags in november or even winning a tourney. so "pants down" is as good an explanation as any. but the obverse -- losing at home to BCS teams (SDS, Wake, MSU, Illni) is worrying since it took years to get them to come to the kennel.

that's why few lost on purpose...he wants to be able to get these type of teams to continue coming to the kennel, duh!?!?!

jazzdelmar
12-10-2012, 05:48 PM
that's why few lost on purpose...he wants to be able to get these type of teams to continue coming to the kennel, duh!?!?!

Huh? Who said that? You ok?

Oregonzagnut
12-10-2012, 06:38 PM
Like the OSC or Maui, when Gonzaga enters a tournament they basically focus a similar game plan for all three games/teams, IMO. Since they don't know exaclty who they are going to play next, they just go with everything they got. There isn't the time to see much film or discuss strategy in a neutral city. Momentum is built or lost depending on if you win or lose, then you go quickly into another game. That helps us to win IMO and there is less of the mental musical chair rotations that Mark Few (perfectionist) wrestles with in his head.

The players and coaches build momentum and chemistry together. That turns into a tournament flow and consistent and comfortable execution as a team. Everyone gets into a zone and if you really are better, you win. Few won't throw major changes at the team (as much) if they win. BTW, Bobby knight disagrees that there is such a thing as "Momentum between games."

But Few had 4 days to plan a huge test for our backcourt for WSU and UI since he knows his front court is strong. If Few needed assurances that this backcourt can at least hang with the best, or if we aren't at full strength, then it really is better to test this now rather than in March. Agreed? But most of me just says, win the game first.

Now we see the ceiling for our back court as of right now that loss is a worst case scenario. They will improve, but we know what we must do if they have a cold shooting night in the dance. Few learned a lot and I think we will be VERY front court oriented against KSU.

IMO opinion he (and the team) commited to seeing if our backcourt could hang with the elite guard like Paul. BUT Paul is a SENIOR! Pangos is a Soph! But it got out of hand when our threes failed and they hit all theirs at the end.

SteelZag
12-10-2012, 07:07 PM
Oregonzagnut. We can only hope. Good analysis.

DixieZag
12-10-2012, 07:54 PM
When was the last time that we WON a game that we were absolutely supposed to lose???

In other words, when was the last time we knocked off a team that we had no business beating???

North Carolina? I am not sure, that to me is the more depressing conundrum, we don't seem to pull many upsets lately.

BULLDOG#1
12-11-2012, 06:06 AM
When was the last time that we WON a game that we were absolutely supposed to lose???

In other words, when was the last time we knocked off a team that we had no business beating???

North Carolina? I am not sure, that to me is the more depressing conundrum, we don't seem to pull many upsets lately.

Part of the problems is that we don't play enough games that we are absolutely supposed to lose. Hard to improve the law of averages when we play those games every other year.

Look at our schedule... there's not a game on there that we are absolutely supposed to lose. Not one. Yet I doubt anyone on this board expects us to not drop another game or two the rest of the year... We were even favored against the illini.

We're 9-1, #14 in the country, and things are pretty good. We got blitzed by a illini team (in particular a great player) that had a great night. Better to lose one like this now in December than in the first round of the NCAA tourney or at some point in the WCC tourney.

The zags will learn from this and grow.

jazzdelmar
12-11-2012, 06:15 AM
good points, OZN

Zagpower
12-11-2012, 07:06 AM
The Zags generally look pretty darn good at the beginning of seasons. Not sure if that is due to the tradition of guys playing together over the Summer or the staff doing an excellent job getting things to gel early on...probably both.

We always seem ready to play fairly sharp from the very first game of the season. Other teams seem to take a while to find their stride.

roxdoc
12-11-2012, 08:32 AM
Good point Zagpower - as the season progresses the other teams seem to improve a lot, GU not so much.

Oregonzagnut
12-11-2012, 12:22 PM
Good point Zagpower - as the season progresses the other teams seem to improve a lot, GU not so much.

I believe this is one of Fews personality traits. He is a constant tinkerer to find the sweet spot for our team. This is a great and useful trait for 95% of the time, but you have to know when to quit. So what is most important is you have to know what you are looking to know when you have got it!

IMO, its like a hi performance race car engine, if you are constantly fine tuning the engine to find the sweet spot, but you don't define the sweet spot, when you get there you won't know it because you are always changing it. After Davidson and LC we needed to stick with that "fuel mixture" on our engine and let our players race.

When Few changed the rotation depth and PT for everyone, he made a major change and went "lean" on our fuel mixture for our last 2 games. He needs to go back to a "richer" mixture, in order to maximize our depth and stay strong in our defensive legs for 40 minutes. I now see 0 reasons to go with only a 6-7 man rotation unless someone is sick or hurt.

Vanzagger
12-11-2012, 01:51 PM
We have amazing players. We have the best fans in the world. We need a little less tinkering.

TheGonzagaFactor
12-11-2012, 06:00 PM
the OOC tourneys are on neutral courts and the majority of our non-tourney games are on the road, either as true road games or as neutral court games in NBA arenas somewhere near the opponents campus.

Gonzaga has won roughly 60% of about 120 games against BCS programs since 1998-99 so I can't complain. Plenty of true road wins vs UW and WSU, good win @ United Center and several other NBA arenas... We have done fine.