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Reborn
12-08-2012, 10:59 PM
Ranked team comes into town and someone goes for 30+ points and Mark Few doesn't know how to stop it. IMO defense has always been Gonzaga's problem, and in the biggest of games it will be. IMO this was a huge loss because it was a huge game. We did not step up and they did on our home court. We DID NOT play with fire in our guts and they did. Their #1 player who will go pro got 35 points. Ours got 15, and had absolutely no fire in his belly and stunk on defense. When elias plays without fire we will ALWAYS LOSE against teams that are elite. When you play elite players your stars shine and rise up to the occasion like Paul did for Illinois. In the end don't we just need to ask who stepped up and made the plays?

Our guards were horrible. When our starting guards go 3-11 and 3-9 we will lose. I don't care how good our front court is. You need guards in basketball and you need good outside shooting. I think our bigs are playing good, but not great. Kelly Olynyk had 6 turnovers on carelessness (multiple 3 seconds in the key called on him). Harris with 3 turnovers. It was NOT our guards turning it over (I think EDI had two or 3 on plan stupid plays).

We are getting absolutely nothing out of the 3 position. It's worse then last year because for some odd reason Edi is worse then last year. MMM So much for Juco transfers (especiallyguards). Mike Hart makes 2 FT, and imo played horrible defense. He can not guard guards. I would say he did not make any really big plays that Im used to seeing.

Illinois starting post players scored six points. Griffey was on the bench most of the game. They beat us with a four guard offense. so the question is....as many have asked....why did we not go down low more in the second half? I guess we'll have to ask Gary and Kevin. WE made 5 threes, and shot 27.8% from behing the arc, and yet that seemed to be our game plan the second half.

Final word Mark Few got outcoached by a mile. IMO the Zags were not mentally or physically ready for a game like this. The Zags got outtoughed by a bunch of guards. If Mark Few thinks we can go anywhere in the NCAA tournament with Stockton and Pangos in the game at the same time then he is a fool. Finally when the Zags come out the second half and play like they did tonight against good teams they always lose. They had no fire at the beginning of second half. Illinois did and they stole the game from us in those early minutes. Like I said Few got outcoached.

Zag@LMU
12-08-2012, 11:01 PM
Post of the day. Just another season at gonzaga.

Oregonzagnut
12-08-2012, 11:07 PM
Now we know how WSU felt. Except they had a "moral victory". They held the #10 team to a 2 point win.

We held the #13 team to a 11 pt loss. Same game plan, far better team same rate of loss. The hardest part is that occams razor, common sense and everyone said the same thing and it happened anyway.

Dennis Green: "They are who we thought they were"

Yet we didn't do the game plan that everyone, except Few, had planned. His plan didn't work this time and it was a plan based on guard play.

TM27
12-08-2012, 11:37 PM
Ranked team comes into town and someone goes for 30+ points and Mark Few doesn't know how to stop it.

In his coaching career Mark Few is 23-43 vs AP ranked opponents. This could be due to inferior recruiting/resources vs the ranked guys or it could be due to inferior coaching against the ranked guys. Many variables are possible and an equal amount of possible conclusions... the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Regardless GU is an exciting team to root for as NCAA berths and WCC championships roll in. However, losses against the Illinois of the world shouldn't be shocking....as history proves it is more likely to occur than not.

jim77
12-09-2012, 12:31 AM
Ranked team comes into town and someone goes for 30+ points and Mark Few doesn't know how to stop it. IMO defense has always been Gonzaga's problem, and in the biggest of games it will be. IMO this was a huge loss because it was a huge game. We did not step up and they did on our home court. We DID NOT play with fire in our guts and they did. Their #1 player who will go pro got 35 points. Ours got 15, and had absolutely no fire in his belly and stunk on defense. When elias plays without fire we will ALWAYS LOSE against teams that are elite. When you play elite players your stars shine and rise up to the occasion like Paul did for Illinois. In the end don't we just need to ask who stepped up and made the plays?

Our guards were horrible. When our starting guards go 3-11 and 3-9 we will lose. I don't care how good our front court is. You need guards in basketball and you need good outside shooting. I think our bigs are playing good, but not great. Kelly Olynyk had 6 turnovers on carelessness (multiple 3 seconds in the key called on him). Harris with 3 turnovers. It was NOT our guards turning it over (I think EDI had two or 3 on plan stupid plays).

We are getting absolutely nothing out of the 3 position. It's worse then last year because for some odd reason Edi is worse then last year. MMM So much for Juco transfers (especiallyguards). Mike Hart makes 2 FT, and imo played horrible defense. He can not guard guards. I would say he did not make any really big plays that Im used to seeing.

Illinois starting post players scored six points. Griffey was on the bench most of the game. They beat us with a four guard offense. so the question is....as many have asked....why did we not go down low more in the second half? I guess we'll have to ask Gary and Kevin. WE made 5 threes, and shot 27.8% from behing the arc, and yet that seemed to be our game plan the second half.

Final word Mark Few got outcoached by a mile. IMO the Zags were not mentally or physically ready for a game like this. The Zags got outtoughed by a bunch of guards. If Mark Few thinks we can go anywhere in the NCAA tournament with Stockton and Pangos in the game at the same time then he is a fool. Finally when the Zags come out the second half and play like they did tonight against good teams they always lose. They had no fire at the beginning of second half. Illinois did and they stole the game from us in those early minutes. Like I said Few got outcoached.

Thats about it...out toughed by basically 4 guards.

HOOTER
12-09-2012, 07:59 AM
In his coaching career Mark Few is 23-43 vs AP ranked opponents. This could be due to inferior recruiting/resources vs the ranked guys or it could be due to inferior coaching against the ranked guys. Many variables are possible and an equal amount of possible conclusions... the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Regardless GU is an exciting team to root for as NCAA births and WCC championships roll in. However, losses against the Illinois of the world shouldn't be shocking....as history proves it is more likely to occur than not.

Same ol' story is just about right. Few is who he is. He knows how to consistently lead the team to victory against inferior opponents, while getting the occasional big win. He also knows how to lead the team to success in the conference and get then into the tourney. What he doesn't know how to do and (we have to assume at this point) never will, is consistently compete and win against the top teams in the country and lead them to a deep run in the tourney. He's just not that type of coach.

I'm not trying to disparage him in any way. This is just the way it is as evidenced by his overall career as a head coach at Gonzaga. We're crazy to think this will change anytime soon or to expect them to suddenly and miraculously become a legit contender for a national title. I guess it remains to be seen, but we seem to have this conversation every year and the outcome is generally the same.

You're absolutely right though. They are a blast to watch and root for throughout the season and post season. We just need to temper our expectations with a dose of reality.

Reborn
12-09-2012, 08:32 AM
good post Hooter

combatcorpsmangulaw
12-09-2012, 08:51 AM
Ranked team comes into town and someone goes for 30+ points and Mark Few doesn't know how to stop it. IMO defense has always been Gonzaga's problem, and in the biggest of games it will be. IMO this was a huge loss because it was a huge game. We did not step up and they did on our home court. We DID NOT play with fire in our guts and they did. Their #1 player who will go pro got 35 points. Ours got 15, and had absolutely no fire in his belly and stunk on defense. When elias plays without fire we will ALWAYS LOSE against teams that are elite. When you play elite players your stars shine and rise up to the occasion like Paul did for Illinois. In the end don't we just need to ask who stepped up and made the plays?

Our guards were horrible. When our starting guards go 3-11 and 3-9 we will lose. I don't care how good our front court is. You need guards in basketball and you need good outside shooting. I think our bigs are playing good, but not great. Kelly Olynyk had 6 turnovers on carelessness (multiple 3 seconds in the key called on him). Harris with 3 turnovers. It was NOT our guards turning it over (I think EDI had two or 3 on plan stupid plays).

We are getting absolutely nothing out of the 3 position. It's worse then last year because for some odd reason Edi is worse then last year. MMM So much for Juco transfers (especiallyguards). Mike Hart makes 2 FT, and imo played horrible defense. He can not guard guards. I would say he did not make any really big plays that Im used to seeing.

Illinois starting post players scored six points. Griffey was on the bench most of the game. They beat us with a four guard offense. so the question is....as many have asked....why did we not go down low more in the second half? I guess we'll have to ask Gary and Kevin. WE made 5 threes, and shot 27.8% from behing the arc, and yet that seemed to be our game plan the second half.

Final word Mark Few got outcoached by a mile. IMO the Zags were not mentally or physically ready for a game like this. The Zags got outtoughed by a bunch of guards. If Mark Few thinks we can go anywhere in the NCAA tournament with Stockton and Pangos in the game at the same time then he is a fool. Finally when the Zags come out the second half and play like they did tonight against good teams they always lose. They had no fire at the beginning of second half. Illinois did and they stole the game from us in those early minutes. Like I said Few got outcoached.

Our Guards looked too small against Illinois guards. Our team looked too slow overall against Illinois' speed. Few looked dazed, bewildered, and unable to come up w/ any cogent plan to stop Illinois.

WHY DID WE STOP GOING TO OUR BIGS IN THE 2ND HALF????? !!!!!

This was a terrible loss on our home court -- we looked terrible and the self-described 'best team Few as ever had' needs to STOP.

Sad, Sad, Sad performance last night --- No excuse.

ZagLawGrad
12-09-2012, 08:53 AM
Some posters swing like a tree in the wind.

Have reasonable expectations, and keep in mind it's a long season.

This team is not a POS. Coach Few is not a POS.

And while it's not as good as all the recent hype has made it out to be, the Zags still have a pretty good team.

P.S. We did get to see a pretty good guard yesterday. I fear that unless the Zags can recruit that kind of player, it will be tough to go as deep as we all want to go.

bballbeachbum
12-09-2012, 08:58 AM
the honest yet non-ripping tone of this thread is appreciated.

a couple of quick points from my view

Illinois was geared to stop E. Whenever he put the ball on the deck he was swarmed, so others had some open shots then that needed to be made and weren't, to provide the balance this team has displayed all year...but did not last night. I can't put that on Few but perhaps it's on him, I don't know; if just one of those 3s had splashed, open looks from the offensive set they were, it could be a different conversation we're having. those open looks in the Kennel that have been a strength all year (for 2 years) did not go in

on feeding the post, don't know if our guys could even see it past the pressure and quick/long hands half the time, etc. Few tried many ways to get the ball in there seemed to me, not executed well enough tho

this team has no penetrator to make a play when needed. That is an issue I don't know how Few can address

bballbeachbum
12-09-2012, 08:59 AM
P.S. We did get to see a pretty good guard yesterday. I fear that unless the Zags can recruit that kind of player, it will be tough to go as deep as we all want to go.

this. I agree

ZagHouse
12-09-2012, 09:10 AM
I'm not saying criticism of the coach isn't justified, but why do all the posts treat Few like he is coaching on an island? Do you think the other coaches are muzzled and don't have input during a game? I see Tommy, Ray and Donnie speaking to players as they come to the bench, and during timeouts. Few has a solid brain trust surrounding him during games, in the prep leading up to games as well as coaches across the country he considers friends that he speaks to often. Unless we are in the film study and the locker room and are privy to what's being discussed in the huddle, who is to say the game plan wasn't to feed the bigs and get their front in foul trouble, We'd have to have the most moronic coaching staff in the NCAA's if we think that no one proposed going inside to take advantage of our size.

Bottom line: We turned the ball over too many times and because of Wednesdays game and the rotation we needed to win, some guys were gassed at the end of the game last night. We also have two sophomore guards who historically have shot extremely well in K2. But because of their youth, I can understand them trying to do too much too early in the offense. Learn from it, get better, work harder and focus on next Saturday...it's a long season. It's not like we lost to Albany.

BJZags
12-09-2012, 09:19 AM
Our guards were horrible. When our starting guards go 3-11 and 3-9 we will lose. I don't care how good our front court is.

Nice post. If they go instead for say 5-11 and 5-9, the game is an entirely different story. Also "nice" to see the Zags traditional difficulties in guarding the trey. They'd double-team out top and the ball would kick for a three.

zagzilla
12-09-2012, 09:39 AM
Their game plan to take away Elias worked and our game plan to deal with their backcourt failed. I did not see us imposing our will on the game, I saw us reacting to what Illinois was dictating.

Though the coaches were not the ones clanking open looks and making sloppy passes and getting turned over, they are the ones who were unable to get their team to operate as a cohesive unit and exploit the front court advantage we had and which was working. We could have fouled out their 2 centers 5 minutes earlier if we had tried.

ZZ

Reborn
12-09-2012, 11:46 AM
Their game plan to take away Elias worked and our game plan to deal with their backcourt failed. I did not see us imposing our will on the game, I saw us reacting to what Illinois was dictating.

Though the coaches were not the ones clanking open looks and making sloppy passes and getting turned over, they are the ones who were unable to get their team to operate as a cohesive unit and exploit the front court advantage we had and which was working. We could have fouled out their 2 centers 5 minutes earlier if we had tried.

ZZ

I rewatched the game this morning, under a more analytical mind and less passionate. Here are my conclusions.

1. Paul did not beat Gonzaga. Yes he had a good game, but I guarantee you he will not score 35 points every night out, and when it comes to playing in the Big 10 (or is it Big 12 now) he will have a much more difficult time scoring because they play tough defense overall. Gonzaga played HORRIBLE defense in the second half, particularly Pangos and Harris, and at times Hart because Hart does not defend guards well. They are too quick. There were two problems on D, one was not closing out on shooters and they drove around us throughout the second half scoring either on layups or getting fouled. It was not just Paul but Abrams too who was getting inside for layups. As you read the posts after this game, the bloggers seem to blame our inability to stop the 3 pt shot. I do not think that that was our problem on defense. The only made 11 3's which is their average. It was our inability to stop guard penetration. The problem was Harris on the pick and role. Harris was not jumping out on the switch and our guards were getting bumped off. It was Elias' worst defensive effort in a long time. He looked really tired.

2. The second problem, and this was obvious when I watched the game again this morning, is that missed free throws did hurt the Zags the second half. If you look at the statistics it looks like we shot much better from the line, but the good free throw shooting was done in the first half. When Gonzaga began to fall behind from 4 points to nine, missed free throw shooting had a lot to do with it. We missed 4 free throws. Olynyk missed the front end of a one and one. Harris made 1 out of 2. Stockton made one out of 2 and Pangos made one out of 2. That was 3 for seven, and if Olynyk had the opportunity to make two free throws on that one and one it would have been a five point difference. We would have had the lead instead of being down by 4-8 points. These should all be good foul shooters and this year they have not been. And it is purely mental. PURELY.

3. The final point is one that everyone has mentioned. The guards began to shoot, and in particular Stockton. He was 0-3 and one for 2 at the line. For some reason Stockton wanted to be a scorer tonight instead of an assist man, and his attitude, imo killed Gonzaga. And Pangos and Bell missed some wide open three's. There were two different times when we had gotten the lead down to 4 pts once and then 3 one time late in the game and Pangos and Stockton and Bell forced up 3's. Pangos drove the length of the court and hoisted up a 3 at the top of the key. THAT is the TOUGHEST shot in basketball, and proved to be a poor decision. ONe one of the other Stockton hoisted up a 3 afer one pass. He wanted to be a hero instead of a roll player.

So far this year the front court has been our strength, and when the game got close two different times in the last 7 minutes we should have gone to our strength. Instead we started shooting from the outside. The Zags were only down by 3 points in the last 3 minutes. And we all know that this is the most important part of the game. Our post players did not get the ball in the last 3 minutes. At 3:27 left in half we are down by 3. Abrams beats Hart off the dribble and scores on a layup. They are now up by 5. Pangos misses one of two free throws, but we get the rebound as it is bounced out to Mike Hart and he jacks up a 3 pt shot. why? Is that the kind of shot the Zags need at this point of the game? Why not reset and score and get the lead down to 2, and take advantage of the break we got on the rebound. Then on the biggest defensive play of the night, when we MUST stop them, Brandon Paul gets the ball on the pick and roll and Harris once again DOES NOT HEDGE AT ALL and Bell thinks he is going to, and Paul drives around Harris for a lay up. Kelly Olynyk tries to get a charging call on Paul, as he goes up for the layup, but fouls him for a 3 point play, and in my opinion the game is over on that play. It was a close play, but Kelly does lean into him some as Paul averts the charge while in the air and makes Kelly lean into him with his right shoulder. Zags are now down by 7.

But still 2 and a half min left in game. Hart penetrates with 4 seconds to go on the clock and feeds Kelly O and Kelly misses a lay up. And we then foul and Abrams makes 2 and now it is over for sure. Stockton jacks up a 3 misses. Brandon Paul then knocks down a 3 at the top of the key as Bell refuses to preassure him. Zags down by 12......I'll stop here. This is NOT the way to play in the last 3 minutes of a game if we are to win.

There are four important parts of the game that analysts say must be won if a team hopes to win the game. The first one is the first 5 min of a game. Gonzaga wins this easily. The second one comes with 2 or 3 minutes left in the half and Illinois clearly wins this one. The third is the first five minutes of the second half. Illinois wins that one, and has their 4 point lead at this point of the game and GU never regains the lead. We basically play even up until the 3 minute mark left in the game. and of the four important times in a game, this is THE most important. Illinois wins this one and the game.

katman50
12-09-2012, 12:13 PM
Great analysis, Reborn.

jagwalkley
12-09-2012, 01:20 PM
Just read Hooter and Reborn and you get the whole,sad story. Great kids,no star to make things happen.Enjoy them for what we have,quit dreaming.:horse:

sittingon50
12-09-2012, 05:59 PM
How the hell did Tom Izzo keep his job after he allowed Adam Morrison to go for 43 against him? And how the hell did Thad Matta keep his job after the aforementioned Brandon Paul torched his team for 43?

Just 2 glaring examples of over matched coaches.

Zags11
12-09-2012, 06:06 PM
How the hell did Tom Izzo keep his job after he allowed Adam Morrison to go for 43 against him? And how the hell did Thad Matta keep his job after the aforementioned Brandon Paul torched his team for 43?

Just 2 glaring examples of over matched coaches.

I love few. You gotta call what you see in reality. Few is 23-43 vs top 25 squads. I really doubt a comparison should be allowed between a Izzo and a Few. Everyone allows huge games, but when it is on repeat......you gotta just see the crap on the wall....good or bad.

Reborn
12-09-2012, 06:10 PM
Just read Hooter and Reborn and you get the whole,sad story. Great kids,no star to make things happen.Enjoy them for what we have,quit dreaming.:horse:

Wow! What great advice...Quit dreaming. Enjoy losing. I'm sure you played a lot of sports. Don't care because it might cause you sadness. BE neutral, be nutered. The worst of your post is to tell us to not dream....are you a machine? Robot? This is basketball, who ever you are. It's a game of passion. If you can handle passing then go get yourself an icecream cone and don't come on this board and tell me to stop dreaming.

Reborn
12-09-2012, 06:18 PM
Few has not made it to the Final Four yet. Both Motta and Isso have. My criticism of Few has nothing to do with Paul getting 35, and I don't believe we got beat by the 3 point shot. I agree with CDC. We lost because we didn't stop their other guards. I also believe Few did not have a plan for the last 3 minutes of the game when the Zags were down by 3, and if he did then the team did not follow it. This was a great game by two very good teams. We didn't have it the last 3 minutes. And I believe we had no plan.

Few used to have good out of bounds plays. I think that this was the first time I ever saw a Zag team throw the inbounds pass past the 3 point line every time. That alone made me feel that the Zags were so tentative on offense, and so not attacking. We settled for 3's.

Finally I thought the substitutions sucked.........

Zags11
12-09-2012, 06:20 PM
Wow! What great advice...Quit dreaming. Enjoy losing. I'm sure you played a lot of sports. Don't care because it might cause you sadness. BE neutral, be nutered. The worst of your post is to tell us to not dream....are you a machine? Robot? This is basketball, who ever you are. It's a game of passion. If you can handle passing then go get yourself an icecream cone and don't come on this board and tell me to stop dreaming.

Sports bring out the best in us and at times the worst of us. I hate losing, be it backyard baseball or my 3on3 basketball tourneys. I despise people who say oh well.....it's just a game. I am not saying fight each other or verbally abuse each other. I act like I'm part of the zags, the mariners, Seahawks,etc.......when they lose a tough one....I am bummed out. I analyze what could of been different or if a play here or there could of passed.

My main point is sports to some is a game. For me and countless others...it's part of our life. We cheer, cry, whine or feel deeply saddened by a zag loss. Zag up baby. It made me mad we lost to Illi, who I believe we re better but it's December....not March.

Reborn
12-09-2012, 06:38 PM
Sports bring out the best in us and at times the worst of us. I hate losing, be it backyard baseball or my 3on3 basketball tourneys. I despise people who say oh well.....it's just a game. I am not saying fight each other or verbally abuse each other. I act like I'm part of the zags, the mariners, Seahawks,etc.......when they lose a tough one....I am bummed out. I analyze what could of been different or if a play here or there could of passed.

My main point is sports to some is a game. For me and countless others...it's part of our life. We cheer, cry, whine or feel deeply saddened by a zag loss. Zag up baby. It made me mad we lost to Illi, who I believe we re better but it's December....not March.

Love your post...Keep up the spirit.....I too like to analyze games. It's fun. It's fun to think about the game and try to see what could have been done different. And to me that's what makes this board fun to me. I am happy that there are alot of people on here that also love to analyze the game and try to think of solutions and then come here and share their ideas...I too like people who get upset when we lose. I'm not abusive in the least. As I've said before, if coaches and players can not take criticism they should not be in sports at a high level. They should have ended their careers at the middle school level.

spike_jr
12-09-2012, 07:41 PM
Few used to have good out of bounds plays. I think that this was the first time I ever saw a Zag team throw the inbounds pass past the 3 point line every time.

+1 on the out of bounds plays. Few used to be stellar at getting layins and dunks from out of bounds plays. It was like money in the bank. And now we seem content to throw it into the back court just to get it in. What has happened?

I also think you are right on about the last 3 minutes. As poorly as we played in the second half, we were still right there. There seemed to be no plan, but Few did take two time outs to the locker room with him at the end of the game. I think those could have been put to good use.

gu03alum
12-10-2012, 04:52 AM
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9ucktxkvF1qmn09ro1_250.gif

Reborn
12-10-2012, 05:39 AM
[QUOTE=spike_jr;840269I also think you are right on about the last 3 minutes. As poorly as we played in the second half, we were still right there. There seemed to be no plan, but Few did take two time outs to the locker room with him at the end of the game. I think those could have been put to good use.[/QUOTE]

I never knew that. It's a very interesting point. From his interviewed he sure seemed to be enjoying Paul's brilliant game. Maybe he could have tried to not make it so fun for Paul, teammates and Illinois fans.

primal23
12-10-2012, 11:20 AM
Question that has been bouncing around my head since saturday, which I had the time since my 1 year old decided Sunday morning at 1 AM to wake up and wanna play ugh, when was the last top 25 win against a team not named St Mary's? We just don't seem to win big games anymore, and now that big games are coming to Spokane, its even more depressing. At least on the road you can argue, mostly just trying to justify even if falsely, that travel or short turnaround did them in.