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gonwick
12-06-2012, 06:24 PM
While I applaud Kevin's confidence, I am not sure that him continuing to plunk away on off nights is a great strategy for the team. When you have plenty of other scorers, it doesn't seem a great use of possessions to beat your head against a wall and hope things turn around. Kevin is integral to the team, but I would rather he evaluated his game and contributed in the most useful manner. The team is not just Kevin, and I fear that if he takes double digit shots when shooting less than 10%, he is setting the team up for failure. I love his game, but we all know he's very streaky.

Losses last year:
SF: FG 2-7, 3 pt 0-5 (GB was 5-7, 3-4)
Illinois: FG 5-10 (hey not bad!), 3 pt 1-5 (doh!)
BYU: FG 2-6, 3 pt 0-3
SMC (championship): FG 3-18, 3 pt 1-10
Ohio St: FG 3-13, 3 pt 2-8

To be fair, there were some losses where KP shot well. In most of the above losses, there were other players who were hot. I hope that as KP's game matures, he comes to understand when he's got it and when he's better off feeding the hot hand. The team's fate can't be tied to whether or not one shooter is hitting that night. That's the whole point of a team.

KP had a great attitude about the WSU game in the post game interviews and I know he has a great head on his shoulders, so hopefully this will be the natural evolution of his game.

awberke
12-06-2012, 06:30 PM
Kevin had some great looks last night. Do you want him to not shoot them? He started out like 1-5 against Davidson and then hit 4 in a row.

I'll take open looks for him any day.

btzag
12-06-2012, 06:50 PM
His droughts are disturbing; 1-5 against LCST, 2-11 Ok and 2-12 WSU. Last year it was issue as well and it has not been rectified yet.

Just note that GU minus KP was 26-43 FG (60%) and 6-11 3's (55%). I think the post is right on, don't completely shut down on offense but maybe if you are having a terrible shooting night don't take 22% of your teams FG attempts?!

Hoopaholic
12-06-2012, 06:52 PM
Harris, olynyk, bell and pango all averaging 8-9 shots a game seems balanced and makes a difficult game plan to defend us, yet he is also dishing out his share of assists at 4 a game......

Harris is shooting 10.8 shots a game. 1 every 2.5 minutes every game so far
Olynyk is shooting 8 shots a game, 1 every 2.6 minutes per game so far
Bell is shooting 8.4 shots per game , 1 every 3.3 minutes per game
Pangos is shooting 8.8 shots per game, 1 every 3.2 minutes per game
Dower is shooting 6 shots per game, 1 every 3.2 minutes


Pangos is playing the most minutes but is shooting least often in terms of time on the court. Great balance in my opinion. Don't change a thing

hooter73
12-06-2012, 06:53 PM
With stockton not rainbowing open threes anymore, kp needcs to still throw one or two up per half. His shots are not clunking, they are in and down before they somehow bounce out. I do want him to get those assists up and agree with doing other things when your shot id not falling, but he is a good shooter. If this was a meech discussion, yeah don't shoot. But as it is,...

Hoopaholic
12-06-2012, 06:57 PM
If he fails to take the open looks, or fails to attack the gaps and defense than that allows defenders to adjust to address our inside game, they go hand in hand. If guards remain a dual threat they have to be honored which in turn gives freedom of movement for our bigs. And many of his shots are read shots, meaning high risk but high reward as he sees our bigs have rebounding position for any miss

sittingon50
12-06-2012, 07:03 PM
A couple of those 3's rattled out. Was pretty close to a very strong performance.

ZagLawGrad
12-06-2012, 07:05 PM
A couple of those 3's rattled out. .

Got me off the couch a couple of times....

Oregonzagnut
12-06-2012, 07:06 PM
Although I agree with you in part, hindsight is easy. But Pangos must take the wide open shots when they are presented to him. Same with any player. Although I wish our staff could figure out why he shoots worse in large arenas, he is still a sophomore and he isn't perfect.

However if he ceases to find the hot hand and chooses to force shots to the detriment of the team, that is a different story. He has not done that IMO although I will say after 8-9 straight misses, even he can see he is not the "hot hand" for the game. But I only saw 1-2 shots that I questioned. the rest were wide open. Some were too open.

Bad day on the road. Pangos will figure it out.

upan8th
12-06-2012, 07:08 PM
Am more concerned about Mark Few establishing a separate standard for KP than for the rest of the team. He's done it in the past with 'annointed' players (albeit mostly seniors). Can you imagine any other player (except perhaps EH) shooting 10% from the field and still leading the team in minutes played? Plus, Kevin wasn't playing his best game defensively either.

Dranginis , correct me if I'm wrong, just laid 30 on an opponent and Few, postgame, annoyed by questions from the press said (paraphrase): "He's capable of doing that. It's not like it was an out-of-body experience..." So where was Kyle as KP struggled? GBJ was having a decent shooting night. Where were plays for him?

Totally agree that the worst thing that could happen to Pangos is see himself as the team's 'leading scorer'. I want him to be the Courtney Vandersloot of this team. He's capable of it. Even down to the lack of facial hair.

ZagLawGrad
12-06-2012, 07:09 PM
...Bad day on the road. Pangos will figure it out.

Indeed he will. Thank goodness his short game was on when it mattered.

Zerogame
12-06-2012, 07:10 PM
Kevin should not have taken that last shot!

Oregonzagnut
12-06-2012, 07:14 PM
Am more concerned about Mark Few establishing a separate standard for KP than for the rest of the team. He's done it in the past with 'annointed' players (albeit mostly seniors). Can you imagine any other player (except perhaps EH) shooting 10% from the field and still leading the team in minutes played? Plus, Kevin wasn't playing his best game defensively either.

Few has shown near identical patience and loyalty with Santangelo, Dickau, Stepp, Raivio, Meech and now Pangos.

Pangos is a sophomore and I trust this is part of creating a team that trusts the coach, understands the coach is going to commit to the player as much as the player commits to the program. Meech quit the team, every other PG on that list took Gonzaga closer and closer to the promised land as upperclassmen.

The bumps in the road now with a young PG are part of developing a Sr point guard who takes us to consecutive championships. This is Mark Fews goal and long term plan.

WallaWallaZag
12-06-2012, 07:16 PM
Am more concerned about Mark Few establishing a separate standard for KP than for the rest of the team. He's done it in the past with 'annointed' players (albeit mostly seniors). Can you imagine any other player (except perhaps EH) shooting 10% from the field and still leading the team in minutes played? Plus, Kevin wasn't playing his best game defensively either.

Dranginis , correct me if I'm wrong, just laid 30 on an opponent and Few, postgame, annoyed by questions from the press said (paraphrase): "He's capable of doing that. It's not like it was an out-of-body experience..." So where was Kyle as KP struggled? GBJ was having a decent shooting night. Where were plays for him?

Totally agree that the worst thing that could happen to Pangos is see himself as the team's 'leading scorer'. I want him to be the Courtney Vandersloot of this team. He's capable of it. Even down to the lack of facial hair.

i don't think this has anything to do with coaching or kevin pangos as much as it has to do with gary bell jr. until gary starts looking to take the big shots and take some pressure off pangos when things get tight, nothing will change... kyle's not ready yet...he's even more tentative than bell is in real games(lcsc doesn't count).

upan8th
12-06-2012, 07:23 PM
Dranginis would've jammed it...

bostonzagfan
12-06-2012, 07:52 PM
OP is spot on.

don't know what game some of you were watching, but few of pangos misses were wide open. the shots that weren't wide open, earlyish in the shot clock, when he is 1-7 already - not good shots.

izzjess
12-06-2012, 07:53 PM
keep shooting it kevin!!!......gain some confidence and keep shooting, and that goes for you to gary bell...

Reborn
12-06-2012, 08:46 PM
I believe that there are definitely point guards are scorers. Dan Dickau for one, and Blake Step his Senior year another. Matt Santangelo is a third, and how about Jeremy Pargo. So let's not be crazy here. Pangos is NOT Meech. Kevin did not play good last night, not at all. And he DID take some bad shots, but only because he missed them. I did not like the left handed shot in the key at all. I would say most of the others he could have made on nights that he was on. Kevin has a lot of confidence and I don't think any of us want to disrupt that. As it turned out he ended up winning the game for us. Remember, he's only a sophomore.

229SintoZag
12-06-2012, 08:58 PM
While I applaud Kevin's confidence, I am not sure that him continuing to plunk away on off nights is a great strategy for the team. When you have plenty of other scorers, it doesn't seem a great use of possessions to beat your head against a wall and hope things turn around. Kevin is integral to the team, but I would rather he evaluated his game and contributed in the most useful manner. The team is not just Kevin, and I fear that if he takes double digit shots when shooting less than 10%, he is setting the team up for failure. I love his game, but we all know he's very streaky.

Losses last year:
SF: FG 2-7, 3 pt 0-5 (GB was 5-7, 3-4)
Illinois: FG 5-10 (hey not bad!), 3 pt 1-5 (doh!)
BYU: FG 2-6, 3 pt 0-3
SMC (championship): FG 3-18, 3 pt 1-10
Ohio St: FG 3-13, 3 pt 2-8

To be fair, there were some losses where KP shot well. In most of the above losses, there were other players who were hot. I hope that as KP's game matures, he comes to understand when he's got it and when he's better off feeding the hot hand. The team's fate can't be tied to whether or not one shooter is hitting that night. That's the whole point of a team.

KP had a great attitude about the WSU game in the post game interviews and I know he has a great head on his shoulders, so hopefully this will be the natural evolution of his game.

Basically you're saying he should shoot if he is going to make it and not shoot if he's going to miss. Brilliant insight. Someone call Few and pass this along.

I can't fault that logic, but I'm not sure your position is helpful. If Pangos does too much of what you suggest we have another PMAC on our hands.

caduceus
12-06-2012, 08:58 PM
http://i.imgur.com/9yD6d.png

Edit: This appears to be his season average over time, clearly skewed by his first blowout performance against WSU last year. Per game stats to follow.

caduceus
12-06-2012, 09:12 PM
2011-2012 3pt %:

http://i.imgur.com/Q6Cqn.png


2012-2013 3pt % to date:

http://i.imgur.com/wDsBD.png

rennis
12-06-2012, 09:16 PM
See sig


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

tobizag
12-06-2012, 09:32 PM
interesting. it appears the OP would be in favor of either fewer shots for pangos and/or more minutes for more efficient players.

per 40 min stats:

Karnowski
25 pts 10 rebs 70% fg

Edi
14.5 pts 8 rebs 45% fg 75% FT

fyi, these two guys combined for 11...let that sink in...11 minutes last night.

that first guy? the guy that's 7'2" 305 lbs? 3 mins. 3 mins.

where's sittingon50 with that "dead horse" smilie?

jayray
12-06-2012, 09:40 PM
Basically you're saying he should shoot if he is going to make it and not shoot if he's going to miss. Brilliant insight. Someone call Few and pass this along.

I think the point of the post was pretty clear, when you are having an off night look to pass more than shoot. Yes, shoot when wide open, but if the shots aren't falling you definitely have to be more selective when you have a court full of other possible weapons.

ZagsGoZags
12-06-2012, 10:52 PM
I wish we would run more set plays for GB on the three pt attempts

sprinkle these in more often and it takes some pressure off Pangos, and gets him more open looks (although I agree that in the game against WSU he was usually taking good shots)

but don't forget Pangos burned WSU last year and they had a focus on him this time

CaliforniaZaggin'
12-06-2012, 11:08 PM
Kevin is too good of player to rely so heavily on perimeter jumpers. You never go 2-12 when you're consistently attacking the rim.

roxdoc
12-06-2012, 11:20 PM
Undoubtedly the "word on the street" is that if you don't cover Pangos he goes off on you. Does not take long into the season for everyone to figure that out. So.....you put your athletic 6-5 guy all over him. Thats fine if you can get GBJ and KD going to take the load off. Probably not a good idea to add a smaller offensively challenged guard.

john montana
12-06-2012, 11:42 PM
Keep shooting kevin.

Crazy
12-07-2012, 12:01 AM
A good shot, don't get a bad one just because the miss the last one. Also a bad shot, didn't get a good shot just because the last one went in. Good players know

If it is ok, to end the possesion with a Pangos shot, since it is unlikely that you get a better oppurtunity during the possesion or the risk is to high that you had to take a bad shot cause of the time trouble you should take it.

Since Pango is quite consistent with his shot selection, through bad and good stretches i am happy about his performances. Player who take bad shoot, just to get back in rhythm or since they hit the last hard shot are players who worry me.
And i also think the shot Pangos usually take are ok, in the offense he has a good offensiv skillset which he should use to help his team to draw attention and don't force his teammantes to take worse shot then they have to take today.

Baldwinzag
12-07-2012, 03:05 AM
Pangos can't shoot away from Spokane. Its the hard truth.

last season he knocked down 50+% at the Kennel. Sub-30% on the road. same with this season. no better, no worse.

he shoots 400+ shots per day at his home court and it shows, the one guy who doesn't seemed fazed by the venue is GBJ -- I've always said he should be the one "plunking" away when we aren't in K2.

sounds ridiculous to alter your methods away from home, yet believe it or not, teams do it all the time...

i betcha Pangos has a hot shooting night this Saturday, if past stats and performance(s) are any indication. just the way it is.

Birddog
12-07-2012, 03:34 AM
Basically you're saying he should shoot if he is going to make it and not shoot if he's going to miss. Brilliant insight. Someone call Few and pass this along.

I can't fault that logic, but I'm not sure your position is helpful. If Pangos does too much of what you suggest we have another PMAC on our hands.
http://blog.timesunion.com/tablehopping/files/2007/09/guinnessbeer.jpg

Crazy
12-07-2012, 05:05 AM
Birdog is this was an try to quote me, you failed with it liked with understanding.

If you throw a coin 3 times you will see it land 3 times on head sometimes, but if you throw it again it is still a 50% that it get tail.
So when you are in this position, you shoudn't start betting 3:1, that the next coinflip is head again. But we have a tendency to act this way.

So that you take bad(low percentage) shots, when you hit 2-3 shots before. Some player also do it after a several miss shot since they believe that they have the luck the next time.

And Pangos in overall isn't a bad shooter, like many modern point guards.

Birddog
12-07-2012, 05:55 AM
Crazy, the quote was from 229 who was replying to Gonwick. I agree with 229 and the Guinness reference is related to their current ad campaign.
"Guinness=Brilliant"

These are all opinions of course and each and everyone of you is entitled to one or more, but that doesn't make me agree with them.

gozagswoohoo
12-07-2012, 06:02 AM
This thread makes me giggle like a school girl (which I RARELY do, except maybe on Friday evenings during Mrs Woohoo and I's "Variety Hour").



Kevin is one of our most dynamic scorers. He can change the entire flow/direction of the game in a couple of possessions. He was rated pre-season as one of the best shooters in the country. If Kevin misses 8 three's in a row, and he catches the ball on the perimeter and has even a couple feet of space between him and his defender, I am still BEGGING him to knock that baby down!



Also, I am not trying to speak for the players hear, because I don't know them personally (Yet....*gives devlish look*), but I would be willing to bet money that all of the zags feel this way. They trust Kevin. They'd want him to pop that shot any chance he gets.




And for the record, as soon as Wazzu hit that layup to tie it up, I was thinking ONE thing...."Get the ball in Pangos hands".

zagfan24
12-07-2012, 06:17 AM
Shooting statistics can be somewhat misleading. It's all about context -- time left on the shot clock, open vs contested, rebounders in position, etc. I rarely see Pangos take bad shots. Given his relative difficulties on the road, it'd be nice to get him some easy buckets early on to build confidence. Ultimately, he's going to have to hit outside shots for the Zags to be a great team so he might as well keep shooting.

NotoriousZ
12-07-2012, 06:37 AM
"Shooters shoot, but PGs distribute the ball"

PGs also shoot. And they need to keep shooting to keep the defense honest. Anyone agreeing with the OP might as well root for another team, because Kevin is going to keep shooting, as he should.

titopoet
12-07-2012, 06:53 AM
From the if it goes in; its good; if it goes out; it is bad.

A little open secret, KP is playing less PG than last year. He has been the SG, with Bell and Stockton taking the point more and last game the offense ran a couple times through Kelly and E. Most of the open shots that Pangos shot were within the offense. He has the green light as does several other players: Bell, E, Kelly, Dower. Few is looking to get open looks to his scorers and the offense is doing that. Hence why the team has currently 4 double digit scorers and is leading the nation in field goal.

The area I would look to improve is the slow starts. 9 games and all 9 had Zags start slow. Heck, even in the West Virginia game, they started slow and it was a case of battling thuds and clanks in the first five minutes. Maybe, start with the token press or run a couple of set plays, rather than sets to get the engine revving.

If they started the way they play the middle and end ... imagine ... one can dream.

cjm720
12-07-2012, 07:04 AM
Love KP's confidence and the fact that he's not afraid to shoot. If we didnt' have a player like that, we'd be talking about how we needed one.

Reborn
12-07-2012, 07:11 AM
One great thing about Gonzaga's team is that they have at least four pretty good scorers on the floor all the time and sometimes five. This makes it difficult for the oppositon to defend the Zags. One reason our post players are succeeding the way they are is because we DO have good outside shooters.

Kelly Olynyk is a rare talent. Because he played guard when he was a young kid and developed good ball handling skills he is almost like a 7' guard. As we have been seeing, he has the moves of a guard. He prefers to use a reverse layup rather than a dunk. Sounds like a guard to me. He uses the reverse spin move and then underhands it off the glass and into the basket just as a guard would do. And he CAN shoot if from the 3. Illinois' center, Nnanna Egwu, is 6'!!" and weighs 235. This suggests that he is about the same size as Kelly and may be quick enough to guard him one on one. An Illini fan who posts here on GUBoards suggests that he can. This will be an interesting matchups.

Ellias Harris on the other hand is 20 pounds heavier than their power forward Tyler Griffey and may be able to take him inside. I also wonder if Griffey will be able to keep Elias off the boards.

bostonzagfan
12-07-2012, 07:12 AM
I believe that there are definitely point guards are scorers. Dan Dickau for one, and Blake Step his Senior year another. Matt Santangelo is a third, and how about Jeremy Pargo. So let's not be crazy here. Pangos is NOT Meech. Kevin did not play good last night, not at all. And he DID take some bad shots, but only because he missed them. I did not like the left handed shot in the key at all. I would say most of the others he could have made on nights that he was on. Kevin has a lot of confidence and I don't think any of us want to disrupt that. As it turned out he ended up winning the game for us. Remember, he's only a sophomore.

But he wasn't on! That's the point! They were shots he can hit when on, but would likely miss when off such as he was Wednesday night. He needs to alter his shot selection. always take wide open shots. but tough shots? only take when hot.




If you throw a coin 3 times you will see it land 3 times on head sometimes, but if you throw it again it is still a 50% that it get tail.
So when you are in this position, you shoudn't start betting 3:1, that the next coinflip is head again. But we have a tendency to act this way.


Your suggesting making/missing shots are independent events such as coin flips. That is not true. players can get hot or cold, be having a good night or a bad night. this is not true for a coin.

cjm720
12-07-2012, 07:20 AM
Do you think Coach Few has ever told Kevin to stop shooting?

Hmmmmm, signs point to no. I get the OP, but shooters shoot.

Pargo the Destroyer
12-07-2012, 07:22 AM
While I applaud Kevin's confidence, I am not sure that him continuing to plunk away on off nights is a great strategy for the team. When you have plenty of other scorers, it doesn't seem a great use of possessions to beat your head against a wall and hope things turn around. Kevin is integral to the team, but I would rather he evaluated his game and contributed in the most useful manner. The team is not just Kevin, and I fear that if he takes double digit shots when shooting less than 10%, he is setting the team up for failure. I love his game, but we all know he's very streaky.

Losses last year:
SF: FG 2-7, 3 pt 0-5 (GB was 5-7, 3-4)
Illinois: FG 5-10 (hey not bad!), 3 pt 1-5 (doh!)
BYU: FG 2-6, 3 pt 0-3
SMC (championship): FG 3-18, 3 pt 1-10
Ohio St: FG 3-13, 3 pt 2-8

To be fair, there were some losses where KP shot well. In most of the above losses, there were other players who were hot. I hope that as KP's game matures, he comes to understand when he's got it and when he's better off feeding the hot hand. The team's fate can't be tied to whether or not one shooter is hitting that night. That's the whole point of a team.

KP had a great attitude about the WSU game in the post game interviews and I know he has a great head on his shoulders, so hopefully this will be the natural evolution of his game.

You miss 100% of the shots you dont take. I will take my gunner shooting himself out of a funk anytime. Hes built up enough credit with me.

Reborn
12-07-2012, 07:28 AM
But he wasn't on! That's the point! They were shots he can hit when on, but would likely miss when off such as he was Wednesday night. He needs to alter his shot selection. always take wide open shots. but tough shots? only take when hot.

I was responding to the original thesis of this thread, that point guards should be "passers first." Some point guards are also scorers, as I said in my post. When I played I would look for other ways to score if I was off. I always knew if I was off, and there are many ways to score. Getting fouled is one good way to get points and I wish Gonzaga's guards were attempting to do that more. I was shocked the other night when I heard the announcer say that Bell had only taken 4 fould shots before Wednesday.

zaguarxj
12-07-2012, 07:39 AM
Am more concerned about Mark Few establishing a separate standard for KP than for the rest of the team. He's done it in the past with 'annointed' players (albeit mostly seniors). Can you imagine any other player (except perhaps EH) shooting 10% from the field and still leading the team in minutes played? Plus, Kevin wasn't playing his best game defensively either.
Yes. Gary Bell Jr. a week ago -vs- Pacific. Ok, he ended up 3-11 and only had the 2nd most minutes, but it doesn't stretch my imagination too far at all.

23zagmd
12-07-2012, 07:55 AM
KP has the green light for a reason. He's earned it!

This team is going to go as far as our three point shooting will carry us and KP is a big part of that.

Not one time during that game did it ever occur to me that he was shooting us out of a win. It was frustrating that 3-4 of those didn't go down, but in the course of that game I think he took ONE bad shot. Additionally, he took 12 shots. Not like he's just out there hucking it up like an over enthusiastic 8th grader. He's shooting within the confines of the offense.

The 2 or 3 that seemingly were in, and if they did go in, we would be having a whole different observation and this NON-sense topic would never exist. If those go in and he makes one or two of the floaters that rolled around the rim and out; all of sudden he's 6-12 with 18 points and vying for player of the game.

Shooters, shoot! Plain and simple. I don't think that you will ever hear anyone on that bench tell him to quit shooting and WE shouldn't either. If he does, we can all cancel our Final 4 reservations

dnj116
12-07-2012, 08:00 AM
Good points going both ways on this topic, and a good discussion, overall. However, in my opinion, I tend to side with the point made in the OP. Take the open shots when they're there, but when any player (regardless of whom it is) starts the game making 1-7 shots, that player should realize they should look to distribute to the hot hand and not take contested shots just to get into the flow.

dnj116
12-07-2012, 08:08 AM
KP has the green light for a reason. He's earned it!

This team is going to go as far as our three point shooting will carry us and KP is a big part of that.

Not one time during that game did it ever occur to me that he was shooting us out of a win. It was frustrating that 3-4 of those didn't go down, but in the course of that game I think he took ONE bad shot. Additionally, he took 12 shots. Not like he's just out there hucking it up like an over enthusiastic 8th grader. He's shooting within the confines of the offense.

The 2 or 3 that seemingly were in, and if they did go in, we would be having a whole different observation and this NON-sense topic would never exist. If those go in and he makes one or two of the floaters that rolled around the rim and out; all of sudden he's 6-12 with 18 points and vying for player of the game.

Shooters, shoot! Plain and simple. I don't think that you will ever hear anyone on that bench tell him to quit shooting and WE shouldn't either. If he does, we can all cancel our Final 4 reservations

Good first post, 23zagmd. Welcome to the boards!

NotoriousZ
12-07-2012, 08:21 AM
Good points going both ways on this topic, and a good discussion, overall. However, in my opinion, I tend to side with the point made in the OP. Take the open shots when they're there, but when any player (regardless of whom it is) starts the game making 1-7 shots, that player should realize they should look to distribute to the hot hand and not take contested shots just to get into the flow.

KP was taking good shots. Two of the four in-and-outs go in and this thread doesn't exist. Pangos knows good shots from bad, and I believe he does look for other options when his shots aren't falling.

The OP is suggesting that he stop shooting on nights like Wednesday's.

Wrong, sorry.

bostonzagfan
12-07-2012, 08:24 AM
KP was taking good shots. Two of the four in-and-outs go in and this thread doesn't exist. Pangos knows good shots from bad, and I believe he does look for other options when his shots aren't falling.

The OP is suggesting that he stop shooting on nights like Wednesday's.

Wrong, sorry.

he should stop shooting contested/tough shots or the first kinda open look 10 secs into the shot clock when he is off.

Shanachie
12-07-2012, 09:01 AM
he should stop shooting contested/tough shots or the first kinda open look 10 secs into the shot clock when he is off.


It's been fairly well established that statistically, there is no correlation between the result of a player's last several shots and his next shot. Whether a shooter is "on" or "off" is an after the fact characterization by media and fans. It has nothing to do with the likelihood of a shot going in.

Coaching a jumpshooter to change his shot selection during a game based on the result of his first several shots in that game is a recipe for creating a head case.

BeamerZag
12-07-2012, 09:04 AM
It's been fairly well established that statistically, there is no correlation between the result of a player's last several shots and his next shot. Whether a shooter is "on" or "off" is an after the fact characterization by media and fans. It has nothing to do with the likelihood of a shot going in.

Coaching a jumpshooter to change his shot selection during a game based on the result of his first several shots in that game is a recipe for creating a head case.

Play basketball and then tell me missing your past 5 shots doesn't affect your shooting... or making your past 5.

TheZagPhish
12-07-2012, 09:49 AM
http://f.cl.ly/items/211O0b430B1L3P3R0Q07/scared-taco-running-through-forest.gif

gozagswoohoo
12-07-2012, 10:23 AM
But he wasn't on! That's the point! They were shots he can hit when on, but would likely miss when off such as he was Wednesday night. He needs to alter his shot selection. always take wide open shots. but tough shots? only take when hot.


Just curious here, but what constitutes being "ON" and being "OFF"? Because when we played Davidson, Pangos was like 1 for 5 or something like that to start the game. But then late in the 2nd half, when we REALLY needed to go on a run, he made 3 on (I believe) back to back to back possessions. It may have been 4 possessions though, I can't remember. But, what I'm saying is, he hit one or two in his first 5 or 6 shots. Is that considered him being off? If so, should he not have shot those last ones? Because I'll tell you what, those late 3 in a row he hit solidified that win and put the dagger in Davidson.

I'm glad he DIDN'T stop. He ended up 5 for 9 in that game, and I KNOW he hit at least 3 of his last 4, if not 3 of his last 3. Now take a look at the Wazzu game, he was 1 for 5 from three. What if Pangos was going to hit 3 of his next 4 three's, what would that have done to the game? Put it away, that's what!!


Now, I want everyone to picture the song "Don't Stop Believin" by Journey, and sing this with me to Kevin. (unless you're in an office setting, because then you will look super nuts).


Singing---"Don't stop.....the heavin.....hold on to that feeeeeeelin, you've got the greeeen light, Kevin, ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

primal23
12-07-2012, 10:49 AM
Just curious here, but what constitutes being "ON" and being "OFF"? Because when we played Davidson, Pangos was like 1 for 5 or something like that to start the game. But then late in the 2nd half, when we REALLY needed to go on a run, he made 3 on (I believe) back to back to back possessions. It may have been 4 possessions though, I can't remember. But, what I'm saying is, he hit one or two in his first 5 or 6 shots. Is that considered him being off? If so, should he not have shot those last ones? Because I'll tell you what, those late 3 in a row he hit solidified that win and put the dagger in Davidson.

I'm glad he DIDN'T stop. He ended up 5 for 9 in that game, and I KNOW he hit at least 3 of his last 4, if not 3 of his last 3. Now take a look at the Wazzu game, he was 1 for 5 from three. What if Pangos was going to hit 3 of his next 4 three's, what would that have done to the game? Put it away, that's what!!


Now, I want everyone to picture the song "Don't Stop Believin" by Journey, and sing this with me to Kevin. (unless you're in an office setting, because then you will look super nuts).


Singing---"Don't stop.....the heavin.....hold on to that feeeeeeelin, you've got the greeeen light, Kevin, ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

+1

JPtheBeasta
12-07-2012, 10:50 AM
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii215/triplett77/drawing-mountains1.jpg

Kevin Pangos' ability to draw mountains over time



Kevin is not a "chucker" by any means. I would like to see him create a little more off the bounce in general, but I expect that to come.

primal23
12-07-2012, 10:51 AM
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii215/triplett77/drawing-mountains1.jpg

Kevin Pangos' ability to draw mountains over time

:clap:

SteelZag
12-07-2012, 11:31 AM
Shooting statistics can be somewhat misleading. It's all about context -- time left on the shot clock, open vs contested, rebounders in position, etc. I rarely see Pangos take bad shots. Given his relative difficulties on the road, it'd be nice to get him some easy buckets early on to build confidence. Ultimately, he's going to have to hit outside shots for the Zags to be a great team so he might as well keep shooting.

Agreed. In defense of Kevin, he was forced to shoot with 5 seconds left on the shot clock on three possessions. I'm guessing not his 1st choice. His first 3pt attempt rattled the rim, his 2nd swished, he attempted a couple more and they didn't go in. In the meantime he tried to go inside and possibly gain confidence or get fouled. Neither materialized.

For the game only 42% of his attempts were 3pt shots compared with last season when 3pt shots were 62% of his attempts. For this season only 55% of his shots are 3pt attempts. A case could be made that he is not shooting enough from outside.

I feel that all of our players shoot well enough to take the first open look from outside if they are unable to get the ball to one of the bigs. Bypassing these open looks rarely ends well as the offense stalls.

Kevin will be fine.

IrishZagFan
12-07-2012, 11:33 AM
http://f.cl.ly/items/211O0b430B1L3P3R0Q07/scared-taco-running-through-forest.gif

I'm hungry....Time for lunch.

sittingon50
12-07-2012, 11:39 AM
Dickau was a PG.

Did he shoot or distribute?

bballbeachbum
12-07-2012, 11:44 AM
Shooting statistics can be somewhat misleading. It's all about context -- time left on the shot clock, open vs contested, rebounders in position, etc. I rarely see Pangos take bad shots. Given his relative difficulties on the road, it'd be nice to get him some easy buckets early on to build confidence. Ultimately, he's going to have to hit outside shots for the Zags to be a great team so he might as well keep shooting.

Ching Ching Badda Bing

the offense, the team, they're constructed for him to shoot, and shooting it is a big part of his game. the thing about Davidson was it was the Zags' third game in that gym, and he found the comfort zone in time to crack the game. in these road games he's gotta keep shooting when he's open, that's a huge part of his game, and he's got to impose it on the road or keep trying until he does for this team to max out

Keep shooting those open 3s, just hs to dial it in a little sooner on the road

Eroop22
12-07-2012, 12:09 PM
http://f.cl.ly/items/211O0b430B1L3P3R0Q07/scared-taco-running-through-forest.gif

I prefer these tacos

http://www.baconcoma.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Bacon-Taco.jpg

bballbeachbum
12-07-2012, 12:22 PM
I prefer these tacos

http://www.baconcoma.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Bacon-Taco.jpg

not the tacos I prefer :cheers:

BULLDOG#1
12-07-2012, 12:43 PM
This thread is crazy.
Pangos = green light.

tobizag
12-07-2012, 12:48 PM
Dickau was a PG.

Did he shoot or distribute?

zing. stepp wasn't shy about finding his spots either. and i think pargo was a decent point guard too.

funny how when we had a pg that COULDNT shoot we all were clamoring for a shooter, and now we have a pg that can shoot....

Baseline
12-07-2012, 04:58 PM
If your a shooter, you shoot when your open. You only get consistent by working through shooting at new gyms.
I was disappoint, Drano was open a couple times in his brief minutes and deferred on his shots. If he wants to be a regular he needs to take his shot.

adoptedzag
12-07-2012, 07:04 PM
http://i.imgur.com/NS1Gq.gif

gonwick
12-07-2012, 07:05 PM
A bit surprised by the controversy around the statement that a PG should pass to hot shooters when he's ice cold. Watching the last five minutes of the WSU game, I wanted that ball in EH and KO's hands. I'm glad KP hit the runner to give him back some confidence, but the game didn't have to be that close. This is a question debated earlier this year: who is the go-to guy in clutch time? To me, it's whoever is being most effective. Hot Kevin? Sure. Cold Kevin? Please pass to hot EH.

One of the great things about this team is the balance. Every night might have a different high scorer, and the players and coaches should embrace that. If the plan for the postseason is for KP to shoot his way out of a slump, GU loses the first game he has one of his bad slumps, and that is a shame for a team with so many ways to score.

Looking forward to a home game with Illinois where, hopefully, the slump ends.

Hoopaholic
12-07-2012, 07:11 PM
Last ten minutes of game he only shot 3 times, one was end of shot clock and one was game winner

Bigs took 12 shots during that time period so clearly he was feeding to hot players, making 8 of those shots. Only other shot taken in last ten minutes of game was missed layup by Stockton. So guards were feeding the hot hand. We were making two pointers. Wsu was making three pointers

gonwick
12-07-2012, 07:26 PM
Hoopaholic, the end of game reference was intended to make people think about their assertions that Kevin should shoot no matter what, although I appreciate you bringing stats to the table that support the gist of my OP. I'm sure he'll learn to adapt his game better as he gains more experience. Hopefully he can also figure out how to get to the line more and get some freebies when he's feeling off.

Zag79
12-07-2012, 07:38 PM
Just curious here, but what constitutes being "ON" and being "OFF"? Because when we played Davidson, Pangos was like 1 for 5 or something like that to start the game. But then late in the 2nd half, when we REALLY needed to go on a run, he made 3 on (I believe) back to back to back possessions. It may have been 4 possessions though, I can't remember. But, what I'm saying is, he hit one or two in his first 5 or 6 shots. Is that considered him being off? If so, should he not have shot those last ones? Because I'll tell you what, those late 3 in a row he hit solidified that win and put the dagger in Davidson.

I'm glad he DIDN'T stop. He ended up 5 for 9 in that game, and I KNOW he hit at least 3 of his last 4, if not 3 of his last 3. Now take a look at the Wazzu game, he was 1 for 5 from three. What if Pangos was going to hit 3 of his next 4 three's, what would that have done to the game? Put it away, that's what!!


Now, I want everyone to picture the song "Don't Stop Believin" by Journey, and sing this with me to Kevin. (unless you're in an office setting, because then you will look super nuts).


Singing---"Don't stop.....the heavin.....hold on to that feeeeeeelin, you've got the greeeen light, Kevin, ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

I would justify being "off" as any game where a player misses wide open shots he generally makes, and many of them. Consider in our losses last year Kevin was 8 for 30 from behind the arc, those games he was "off". 2 for 10 against the Buckeyes killed us. 0 for 5 in a one point loss against San Fran really hurt us. 2 for 8 in back to back games during close losses to Illinois and the Spartans is another example.

If you need any more clarification, take a look at Blake Stepp's games when he was "off". It's rather obvious if you ask me, Nevada and Valpo in the dance come to mind (a combined 2 for 21 from three). That being said, I'm all for a sniper like Pangos to keep shooting when he's cold especially if it's a good look. The difference is when your forcing your shot when your cold instead of moving the rock to the open guy. Back to the OP, Kevin is a combo guard. He can pass and shoot, which makes him that much more dangerous.

gozagswoohoo
12-07-2012, 08:31 PM
I would justify being "off" as any game where a player misses wide open shots he generally makes, and many of them. Consider in our losses last year Kevin was 8 for 30 from behind the arc, those games he was "off". 2 for 10 against the Buckeyes killed us. 0 for 5 in a one point loss against San Fran really hurt us. 2 for 8 in back to back games during close losses to Illinois and the Spartans is another example.

If you need any more clarification, take a look at Blake Stepp's games when he was "off". It's rather obvious if you ask me, Nevada and Valpo in the dance come to mind (a combined 2 for 21 from three). That being said, I'm all for a sniper like Pangos to keep shooting when he's cold especially if it's a good look. The difference is when your forcing your shot when your cold instead of moving the rock to the open guy. Back to the OP, Kevin is a combo guard. He can pass and shoot, which makes him that much more dangerous.

You missed the whole point. Yes, it's possible to have an off GAME. You have pointed out off games, that's great. But when, DURING a game, do you say "Okay, I'm off", and stop shooting? If you use the exact standards from the Wazzu game, Pangos would have not hit those final 3 of 4 three's against Davidson, and that could have ended up being a completely different game.

NotoriousZ
12-07-2012, 08:39 PM
You missed the whole point. Yes, it's possible to have an off GAME. You have pointed out off games, that's great. But when, DURING a game, do you say "Okay, I'm off", and stop shooting? If you use the exact standards from the Wazzu game, Pangos would have not hit those final 3 of 4 three's against Davidson, and that could have ended up being a completely different game.

Whoa there, woohoo. You're using logic. The "stop shooting" crowd may have a problem with this.

john montana
12-07-2012, 08:56 PM
If pangos is open, he should shoot...unless we are milking the clock or some specific situation like that. You never tell a shooter like pangos to pass up open shots. It isn't like the kid takes bad shots...he takes open shots, and should. Every time.

Zag79
12-07-2012, 11:30 PM
You missed the whole point. Yes, it's possible to have an off GAME. You have pointed out off games, that's great. But when, DURING a game, do you say "Okay, I'm off", and stop shooting? If you use the exact standards from the Wazzu game, Pangos would have not hit those final 3 of 4 three's against Davidson, and that could have ended up being a completely different game.

I never said he should stop shooting, I said you know when a shooter is off but I would want Kevin to keep taking those shots. I was simply explaining what being "off" means to people that hoop. Keepr firing, hopefully you'll get hot or "on". :agreed:

GrizZAG
12-08-2012, 03:50 AM
Undoubtedly the "word on the street" is that if you don't cover Pangos he goes off on you. Does not take long into the season for everyone to figure that out. So.....you put your athletic 6-5 guy all over him. Thats fine if you can get GBJ and KD going to take the load off. Probably not a good idea to add a smaller offensively challenged guard.

I agree with this view. Also seems like Kevin is the designated go to guy when we are running out of clock. When he is scrambling to get open and is forced to fire away to avoid the violation, he is going to have very low percentages so let's be fair here. Many of those shots were "must shoot now" situations weren't they?

bballbeachbum
12-08-2012, 08:07 AM
big challenge for Kevin today with the long athletic guards for the Illini. They bugged him last year. playing at home should definitely help tho

Baldwinzag
12-08-2012, 08:32 AM
Pangos has struggled mightily vs bigger, more athletic guards for his career, I somewhat expect the same tonight vs Illini, who feature some of the strongest guards in D1 hoops. They are all ripped, long, and aggressive. I hope he proves us wrong, yet if the past is any indication, he might be in trouble.

this season vs guards taller & longer than him:

*Oklahoma: 2-11 FG, 1-6 3pt

*WSU: 2-12 FG, 1-5 3pt

*Clemson: 4-9 FG, 1-4 3pt

last season vs guards taller & longer than him:

*Mich St: 3-8 FG, 1-4 3pt

*Arizona: 1-9 FG, 0-5 3pt

*Xavier: 3-10 FG, 1-7 3pt

*West Va: both their guards were actually smaller than him = played great.

*Ohio St: 3-13 FG, 2-8 3pt

--- Pangos has yet to shoot well vs high-level athletes, which goes back to his Canadian Nat'l days when he faced Team USA. His best game to date from a shooting standpoint vs guards who were stronger/taller than him was Clemson this season, and even then he struggled more than past games.

I realize it kinda feels as we're "cherry-picking" games and stats, yet we were not. It is the hard truth. Of course this doesn't take into account hustle stats, defensive performance, and/or assists, etc, yet merely his woeful shooting stats.

Pangos' shooting struggles vs strong, athletic guards, and by all accounts, this Illinois team is very strong and athletic. How will he do tonight? Will he 'shoot til he's hot' or recognize our HUGE advantage in the paint and look to distribute more and even get his teammates, such as Dranginis, GBJ, others more looks as well.

As of right now, Pangos is shooting 24% FG and 18% from 3pt when he faces BCS teams with these type of guards. its not a small sample size, anymore.

Not ragging, just calculating.

Based on past trends, he will struggle tonight -- which is fine -- its how he handles being handled. He made us forget his terrible performance and shooting vs WSU with a last-second layup, yet all eyes will be on him tonight. I don't care if he's cold as ice as long as he doesn't continue to go 2-12 as he has in the past vs teams he continues to stink it up against.

I adore his mentality about shooting and shooting some more, but also be humble when you're simply over matched and play to your team's strengths like our NBA-esque front court.

bartruff1
12-08-2012, 08:43 AM
Kevin should not have taken that last shot!....he should have passed the ball....that is what point guards do.....what was he thinking...? ....I bet you Few was pissed...he should sit him down till he learns what point guards do...

john montana
12-08-2012, 09:29 AM
Didn't he hit 9 last year against wsu?

If he is open, he should shoot. If he is guarded, he should pass. From what I have seen, that is pretty much what he does.

bartruff1
12-08-2012, 09:36 AM
Didn't he hit 9 last year against wsu?

If he is open, he should shoot. If he is guarded, he should pass. From what I have seen, that is pretty much what he does.

Here you have a freshman point guard that takes the team to the NCAA and nearly beats a FF team...and 9 games into his sophmore season the team is 9-0 and ranked tenth in the nation and for someone to suggest he is exercising poor judgement and hurting the team is just nonsense. I strongly suspect he is doing exactly what the coach wants him to do...the end...

zagette
12-08-2012, 10:04 AM
....he should have passed the ball....that is what point guards do.....what was he thinking...? ....I bet you Few was pissed...he should sit him down till he learns what point guards do...

You are well within your rights to exercise willful ignorance. This is America, after all. But I think some people on this thread are trying to have a reasoned discussion about what an extremely talented, smart point guard ought to do during a challenging shooting night. Feel free to rip me.

bartruff1
12-08-2012, 10:28 AM
You are well within your rights to exercise willful ignorance. This is America, after all. But I think some people on this thread are trying to have a reasoned discussion about what an extremely talented, smart point guard ought to do during a challenging shooting night. Feel free to rip me.

He ought to do what the coach wants him to do... and I am assuming that is what he is doing...

I am also assuming that the last thing the coach wants him to do is lose confidence or become tentative....

I am also assuming that if he was taking bad shots and hurting the team he would be sitting on the bench and not playing 30 plus minutes...

I am also assuming since the coach has won 350 Division One games with a 80% winning average, he knows what he is doing...

If you think those assumptions are wilfull ignorance go ahead and rip me, after all this is America.

SteelZag
12-08-2012, 10:32 AM
If your a shooter, you shoot when your open. You only get consistent by working through shooting at new gyms.
I was disappoint, Drano was open a couple times in his brief minutes and deferred on his shots. If he wants to be a regular he needs to take his shot.

Pangos is going to continue to have poor shooting nights until other players are willing to take some of the open looks they are receiving. One could argue that against BCS schools, players are even more reluctant to shoot. Thereby placing even more undue pressure on Pangos. Somebody has to take some shots. I don't see Pangos as taking shots away from anyone. GBJ, KD and other players need to shoot the open three when they have the opportunity and that may be their best look during that possession.

zagette
12-08-2012, 11:08 AM
He ought to do what the coach wants him to do... and I am assuming that is what he is doing...

I am also assuming since the coach has won 350 Division One games with a 80% winning average, he knows what he is doing...

The coach said after the WSU game "he played very poorly."

Here's the link:
http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2012/dec/05/wsu-gonzaga-hed-here/

Also, 'assumption' is spelled with a 'p'.

TheZagPhish
12-08-2012, 11:46 AM
http://f.cl.ly/items/1Q290P271A191y1B170l/taco-truck-of-death.JPG

bartruff1
12-08-2012, 01:51 PM
I don't equate " He played very poorly " to " Shooters shoot, but PG's distribute the ball ". IMHO he is not taking poor shots and Few wants him to keep taking them. The end.

bostonzagfan
12-08-2012, 02:04 PM
It's been fairly well established that statistically, there is no correlation between the result of a player's last several shots and his next shot. Whether a shooter is "on" or "off" is an after the fact characterization by media and fans. It has nothing to do with the likelihood of a shot going in.

Coaching a jumpshooter to change his shot selection during a game based on the result of his first several shots in that game is a recipe for creating a head case.

the only studies I have seen compared the next shot after a make vs the next shot after a miss or the shot after consecutive makes or after consecutive misses. show me the study that shows that players shoot well after starting 1-6, 1-7, 1-8, 1-9.


Just curious here, but what constitutes being "ON" and being "OFF"? Because when we played Davidson, Pangos was like 1 for 5 or something like that to start the game. But then late in the 2nd half, when we REALLY needed to go on a run, he made 3 on (I believe) back to back to back possessions. It may have been 4 possessions though, I can't remember. But, what I'm saying is, he hit one or two in his first 5 or 6 shots. Is that considered him being off? If so, should he not have shot those last ones? Because I'll tell you what, those late 3 in a row he hit solidified that win and put the dagger in Davidson.

I'm glad he DIDN'T stop. He ended up 5 for 9 in that game, and I KNOW he hit at least 3 of his last 4, if not 3 of his last 3. Now take a look at the Wazzu game, he was 1 for 5 from three. What if Pangos was going to hit 3 of his next 4 three's, what would that have done to the game? Put it away, that's what!!


Now, I want everyone to picture the song "Don't Stop Believin" by Journey, and sing this with me to Kevin. (unless you're in an office setting, because then you will look super nuts).


Singing---"Don't stop.....the heavin.....hold on to that feeeeeeelin, you've got the greeeen light, Kevin, ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

shots were open against davidson. of course he should still shoot open shots even if he is having an off night. its the tough shots that he needs to lay off of when he is cold.


Here you have a freshman point guard that takes the team to the NCAA and nearly beats a FF team...and 9 games into his sophmore season the team is 9-0 and ranked tenth in the nation and for someone to suggest he is exercising poor judgement and hurting the team is just nonsense. I strongly suspect he is doing exactly what the coach wants him to do...the end...

pangos didn't nearly beat a FF team. he was atrocious that game. Craft is a great defender.

bartruff1
12-08-2012, 02:18 PM
Perhaps I should have said " TEAM that nearly beat ..."....ok... asumption with a p...

gonwick
12-08-2012, 08:31 PM
KO hasn't missed a shot all game, their bigs are all on the verge of fouling out, and I have to agree with Bardo (and some of the posters on this thread, I'm sure) that what happened tonight was silly, even if it was easy to see it coming. Whether the decision to go away from the post/hot hand was made by the coaches or the players, it was a bad one. Against WSU, one of the announcers made the point that in the NBA, teams will keep going with what works until the other team stops it. In college, they have a tendency to go away from it spontaneously. This game was exactly what this thread was about.

Well crud, I wish I had been wrong. Hopefully they'll learn the lesson well before the tournament, or we're in for a quicker exit than this team deserves.

Zag79
12-09-2012, 12:34 AM
Tonight was the perfect example of being "off", and how continuing to shoot can cost you the game. Pangos and GBJ were a combined 6-20 from behind the arc, while Harris and Olynyk were unstoppable. Stop shooting, and feed the post more.

It wasn't the only reason we lost... the typical three ball barrage and one guy going for 35+ and a career night defense didn't help. Or the turnovers. This is where some debate the "almost 80% win percentage" talk. Few has a losing record against the top 25, playing in the WCC is a huge reason it's that high.

I love Mark Few, I wouldn't want another coach. But unless we get a better defensive assistant coach it'll be more of the same. You think coach K would allow Illinois to come into Cameron and hang 85 on this same group of guys? I don't.

bartruff1
12-09-2012, 05:51 AM
I don't recall Gonzaga having any (many ?) top 25 recruiting classes... you coach the players you have ....

gonwick
12-09-2012, 07:23 AM
I don't recall Gonzaga having any (many ?) top 25 recruiting classes... you coach the players you have ....

I'm not sure how this is relevant to the thread. The point here is that the team is not appropriately using the players the team does have, the ones who are hot.

bartruff1
12-09-2012, 07:31 AM
The best players play...the point is, Gonzaga does not have top twenty five talent (as measured by the recruiting classes) and so IMHO it will not win many games against teams that do. It is really pretty simple.

gonwick
12-09-2012, 08:14 AM
The best players play...the point is, Gonzaga does not have top twenty five talent (as measured by the recruiting classes) and so IMHO it will not win many games against teams that do. It is really pretty simple.

Based on what you have contributed to this thread, I doubt you and i will agree about much, and this is no exception. GU was in last might's game throughout, and if they had done what was blatantly obvious to most, they might and probably should have won. You may be willing to accept your simple opinion that they will lose to most top 25 teams, but i would argue that they can and should be able to compete with top 25 teams because they ARE one. Team rankings during the season are based on performance and player assessment, with a dash of institutional bias slanted against mid majors like gu. Recruiting rankings are notoriously inaccurate, by the way, ask TX, KY, UCLA, etc.

NEC26
12-09-2012, 08:20 AM
Tonight was the perfect example of being "off", and how continuing to shoot can cost you the game. Pangos and GBJ were a combined 6-20 from behind the arc, while Harris and Olynyk were unstoppable. Stop shooting, and feed the post more.

It wasn't the only reason we lost... the typical three ball barrage and one guy going for 35+ and a career night defense didn't help. Or the turnovers. This is where some debate the "almost 80% win percentage" talk. Few has a losing record against the top 25, playing in the WCC is a huge reason it's that high.

I love Mark Few, I wouldn't want another coach. But unless we get a better defensive assistant coach it'll be more of the same. You think coach K would allow Illinois to come into Cameron and hang 85 on this same group of guys? I don't.

Illinois was packing the paint especially after they got into foul trouble. It isn't quite as simple as feeding the big man if he isn't open. Pangos and Bell have got to make them pay for clogging the middle like they were doing. I did not like the early threes Stockton, Pangos, and Bell took though. Other than that I didn't have a problem with their shot selection its just too bad they rimmed out. Their defense was atrocious however.

bartruff1
12-09-2012, 09:04 AM
Based on what you have contributed to this thread, I doubt you and i will agree about much, and this is no exception. GU was in last might's game throughout, and if they had done what was blatantly obvious to most, they might and probably should have won. You may be willing to accept your simple opinion that they will lose to most top 25 teams, but i would argue that they can and should be able to compete with top 25 teams because they ARE one. Team rankings during the season are based on performance and player assessment, with a dash of institutional bias slanted against mid majors like gu. Recruiting rankings are notoriously inaccurate, by the way, ask TX, KY, UCLA, etc.

My opinion is that it is possible that some fan (or even most fans) knows more and cares more about winning or who should play than the coaches...but I doubt it.

It is also my opinon that Few does more with the talent he has available to him than anyone in the country...now why be offended by that opinion. ?

gonwick
12-09-2012, 10:53 AM
My opinion is that it is possible that some fan (or even most fans) knows more and cares more about winning or who should play than the coaches...but I doubt it.

It is also my opinon that Few does more with the talent he has available to him than anyone in the country...now why be offended by that opinion. ?

I'm not offended by that opinion, especially since it's the first time in this thread that you've expressed it. Your first statement is one I often see on the board, juxtaposing outside (fan) observations with coaching perspective with an absurdist slant to make it seem that clearly anyone who questions the coach is out to lunch.

There are many debates to be had about the recruiting quality and how the coaches exceed recruiting rankings with team rankings, but they're not relevant to the thesis of this thread, which is that the team needs a plan B for when the shooters are off, or this team is going nowhere in March.

The internet is funny, for all I know you're coach Lloyd and for all you know I'm a 12 year old boy typing on my mom's computer. The absurdity is not lost on me, and I doubt either or us is going to agree with the other no matter how many times we go back and forth.

As this thread has clearly run its course and is off topic, I think I'll focus on the five others started after the Illinois game that have the same premise.

gonwick
02-28-2013, 09:40 PM
This game was reminiscent of Illinois. If the team doesn't learn from what byu did tonight, they will lose too early in the tournament.