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View Full Version : Kelly is most improved IMO.



Oregonzagnut
11-22-2012, 10:06 PM
Kellys first game out, he seems like a COMPLETELY different player from the 2010-11 season. He is confident, in better shape, with better floor vision and smarts.

Kelly does seem to be the most improved player. Am I seeing his attitude and confidence wrong?

Baseline
11-22-2012, 10:50 PM
I see a new Kelly out there tonight. Pretty good for his first game in over a year. He plays with strength he never did before. You know see him as a big, not a tall guard. I just wish he would shoot more without the hesitation, he still hesitates.

MBZags
11-22-2012, 11:31 PM
He looks much more fluid in his movements. It seems like he finally grew into his body.

ZagsGoZags
11-22-2012, 11:55 PM
the difference looks like a man rather than a tall boy
he seems so much stronger
he also moves much more like an NBA power forward than harris or sam
I was shocked at how different he moves now

all for the better

Martin Centre Mad Man
11-23-2012, 03:29 AM
I think we're playing him out of position at the 5, but we don't have much choice, unless he's in at times when Harris is on the bench. His outside-in game, where he slashed from the outside to the low block opened him up for some nice post feeds in the latter minutes of the game. He can shoot well enough from outside that teams have to guard him away from the basket which will open lanes for other players to attack the rim. His screens at the three-point line looked good. He handled the ball effectively on a full court press for short periods of time.

He can't do those things if he's chained to the low block.

Martin Centre Mad Man
11-23-2012, 03:34 AM
Also, I'd like to see him get meaner under the basket when fighting for rebounds. There is no reason that a seven-footer with decent lateral quickness should grab just three rebounds in 24 minutes of play. He let Clemon's shorter players grab too many 50-50 balls in his area. He needs to block out more forcefully and go after the ball like.

jazzdelmar
11-23-2012, 03:39 AM
A poor mans Gordon Hayward, thats the upside for KO. He looks good. Maybe when Karno gets going he can play the 4.

CanadianZagFan
11-23-2012, 03:54 AM
A poor mans Gordon Hayward, thats the upside for KO. He looks good. Maybe when Karno gets going he can play the 4.

What? Gordon Hayward is a 2/3 in the NBA, he always was a wing player, even in college. While some like to talk about how Kelly played guard in high school, he is a stretch 4 with the ability to play some 5. If you want comparisons, think guys like Channing Frye, Rasheed Wallace, Ryan Anderson.

jazzdelmar
11-23-2012, 04:09 AM
What? Gordon Hayward is a 2/3 in the NBA, he always was a wing player, even in college. While some like to talk about how Kelly played guard in high school, he is a stretch 4 with the ability to play some 5. If you want comparisons, think guys like Channing Frye, Rasheed Wallace, Ryan Anderson.

emphasis on "poor man's"......:)

thespywhozaggedme
11-23-2012, 05:26 AM
A poor mans Gordon Hayward, thats the upside for KO. He looks good. Maybe when Karno gets going he can play the 4.

Dude, what?!?!?!?!

LongIslandZagFan
11-23-2012, 06:27 AM
Kelly had nice post moves... rebounded well. Way improved and I get where Few was coming from. We have to remember, last night was the "raw" Kelly playing his first D1 game in a year and a half. One thing was evident... he took that year and spent a significant amount of time in the weight room. He is ripped now as opposed to the bean pole he was.

Reborn
11-23-2012, 06:36 AM
He certainly was rusty starting out the game, but he gradually improved and ended up tied with Elias for high scoring honors with 13. I thought he played good defense, but did not rebound well. I'm looking forward to his play today. When you add in Sam's 11 points I 'd say our post players saved our behinds last night with 37 combined points.

cjm720
11-23-2012, 06:42 AM
He does a lot of things well like talking on the court, screening, rtc. A lot of little things that don't hit the box score. He's more well rounded than Karno or Dower. His low box scoring is his weakness, whereas that's Karno and Dowers strength. I see why coach says he's the best post player. And I think, hope his game continues to improve.

CDC84
11-23-2012, 08:00 AM
For me Kelly doesn't possess the handle, quickness, athleticism or decisive perimeter offensive moves to be anything like the power forward many people imagine him to be. If he tries to create his own shot facing up people ala Harris, he gets swatted or travels almost everytime. He does have a nice looking long range perimeter shot and is good at tossing a high low pass, but that's about it.

I'd like to see the guards get him some low post feeds beyond just the pick and roll stuff where he can attack the basket directly without having to set up his defender. If he has to take any amount of time setting up his shot around the basket he's in trouble.

Goshzagit
11-23-2012, 08:04 AM
I'd like to see the guards get him some low post feeds beyond just the pick and roll stuff where he can attack the basket directly without having to set up his defender. If he has to take any amount of time setting up his shot around the basket he's in trouble.

This is a great point & observation, CDC.

john montana
11-23-2012, 08:11 AM
I thought he looked pretty good out there. Frankly, after one game I have more faith in KO than I do Dower. Better defender, rebounder, and while he won't score as much one on one, he's pretty savvy and has a nose for the ball. If he plays like that it will make life easier for Dower (who has a history of coming in off the bench and destroying other team's second string big men.)

Oregonzagnut
11-23-2012, 09:03 AM
But the fact is he still is playing like a PF or 4, rather than a 5. If he can get it through his head that he is 7 ft tall, he could change how he plays.

How does a 7 footer get blocked against 3 times in a game? Does he have hops or is he more tied to the ground than we think. IMO, ALL centers, 5's post players need to have the hook shot as a staple. When 1 on 1 and and the defenders are man to man it is un-blockable. Or so I have been told.

MickMick
11-23-2012, 09:04 AM
I need to see more.


I'm not feeling the wow that others are.


This is about most improved?

David Stockton for sure.

hooter73
11-23-2012, 09:13 AM
I thought he looked pretty good out there. Frankly, after one game I have more faith in KO than I do Dower. Better defender, rebounder, and while he won't score as much one on one, he's pretty savvy and has a nose for the ball. If he plays like that it will make life easier for Dower (who has a history of coming in off the bench and destroying other team's second string big men.)

this is the truth IMO and im sure it will hurt as the truth often does.

Oregonzagnut
11-23-2012, 09:20 AM
I need to see more.


I'm not feeling the wow that others are.


This is about most improved?

David Stockton for sure.

OK, I see your point. but after 4 games, stockton has stepped up his floor vision, defense and passing, but still isn't the scorer or the consistent shooter.

But if we compare Stockton's first four games and Kellys first 4 games, lets make the decision. I bet within the next 3 games, Kelly will have far more of an impact than DS, and we will see ALL of Kelly's improvement.

DADoZAG
11-23-2012, 09:33 AM
Kelly had nice post moves... rebounded well. Way improved and I get where Few was coming from. We have to remember, last night was the "raw" Kelly playing his first D1 game in a year and a half. One thing was evident... he took that year and spent a significant amount of time in the weight room. He is ripped now as opposed to the bean pole he was.

Thanx for that reminder LIZF. Weíll see more of last nightís second half Kelly in the game tonight. Kelly has obviously worked hard. Heíll be fun to watch when he gets fully caught up.

Kelly does need to attack on the defensive end the way he attacks the offensive glass. There is far too much waiting to react for the three biggest ZAGS. More attacking like Elias does (and GLE to a slightly lesser extent) is needed.

Should the ZAGS have made the missed bunnies and a couple of the bad calls or bounces had gone the other way, the ZAGS win by 20. All the ZAGS needed last night was to come out a bit stronger, have less dribbling, and more ball movement.

In the first half last Monday, Coach Few called a timeout. It was somewhat early in the half for the ZAGS to take a timeout, as most first half time outs come to set up the last play. This timeout wasnít to prevent a tie up or a turnover. He didnít pull anybody (that I noticed). The ZAGs were already starting to pull away.

Why the timeout?

Few called the timeout and slapped a couple of the ZAGS around (verbally only, of course). He called a timeout to coach the guys on the floor.

Itís a joy to see great coaching.

Speaking of great coaching, congratulations to Clemson. There were some great athletes on the floor last night that were very well coached and very prepared to win a basketball game. Iíll have to add them to the DVR list.

Go ZAGS!

bballbeachbum
11-23-2012, 09:44 AM
playing some old school flex out there in some sets with KO on the floor last night, good offense for him and his skill set, worked ok in the 2nd half too. lots of 3 guard spread too.

agree that KO looks/acts like a man now on the court, not a kid

bostonzagfan
11-23-2012, 10:29 AM
i still think karno could be the best of the non-harris big man trio by the end of the year

Ezag
11-23-2012, 10:33 AM
considering Kelly O played that well in the hardest game of the year so far speaks highly of his development. Clemson was a physical defensive team.

gbnyba17
11-23-2012, 12:22 PM
I need to see more.


I'm not feeling the wow that others are.


This is about most improved?

David Stockton for sure.


I dont really see this improvement? He could always pass the basketball, yet still is extremely limited on offense. So where's the significant improvement? Still wayyyy too many bone headed turnovers from a point guard. If he could cut back the stupid TOs, DS would be one of the better backup PGs in the country.

UberZagFan
11-23-2012, 12:35 PM
IUHO, the jury is still out on most improved player. So far and based on all games, GLE is the most improved. Admittedly, he had the most room from improvement but still has come farther along the DS or KO, so far. Don't forget KO was a pretty good player before the red shirt. Now he is just a different type of player--a type that GU needs more so than his former self so maybe by the end of the year he will garner the most improved label.

Martin Centre Mad Man
11-23-2012, 06:09 PM
He looked better, tonight. He didn't score as much, but he was much better on the boards. With the scoring balance that we had, tonight, I'm glad he just played within the offense.

jpn17
11-23-2012, 06:26 PM
I dont really see this improvement? He could always pass the basketball, yet still is extremely limited on offense. So where's the significant improvement? Still wayyyy too many bone headed turnovers from a point guard. If he could cut back the stupid TOs, DS would be one of the better backup PGs in the country.

He is definitely still plagued by some bad turnovers, but I'm seeing a more confident Stockton, someone who isn't afraid to shoot the ball and is managing to finish at the rim against guys a foot taller. One major improvement I'd like to see from David is a big jump in his FT %. I can't believe that John Stockton's son is so bad at shooting free throws.

MickMick
11-23-2012, 06:53 PM
An argument could be made that Harris is the most improved player.

Zag Man
11-23-2012, 07:02 PM
KO really has grown into his body over the past year and looks like a real man out there on the court. He looks so much stronger and really can bang with the big boys under the boards without flinching. The nice thing about Kelly is he has such soft hands and catches and passes the ball so very well. Weíre so blessed to have Kelly and PK as they complement each other extremely well. Looking at KO now, itís hard to believe he is the same player that was the first reserve off the bench as a freshman. Heís a beast now and heís going to get better! Wow!

ZaginLaw
11-23-2012, 07:28 PM
Yes. KO is a poor mans Gordon Hayward and a rich man's Sean Mallon.

willandi
11-23-2012, 07:34 PM
What I liked about KO tonight is the way he ran! He used his long legs to get back on D, and to advance on O. Hr didn't loaf...he stretched it out, and was in position!

titopoet
11-23-2012, 09:05 PM
Yes. KO is a poor mans Gordon Hayward and a rich man's Sean Mallon.

Huh, he is a stretch 4 or Euro 4, like in the Hedo Turkoglu mold. Those who compare him a 3 SF have you seen Gordon Hayward play? It like saying Kelly is a poor man steve Nash and then answering the natural question by saying they mean "poor."

What is funny is that Kelly has been paired off with Karno and Dower and Harris and playing the high post stretch 4 postion in almost all his PT.

Oregonzagnut
11-23-2012, 09:14 PM
Huh, he is a stretch 4 or Euro 4, like in the Hedo Turkoglu mold. Those who compare him a 3 SF have you seen Gordon Hayward play? It like saying Kelly is a poor man steve Nash and then answering the natural question by saying they mean "poor."

What is funny is that Kelly has been paired off with Karno and Dower and Harris and playing the high post stretch 4 postion in almost all his PT.

Who would have expected 3 man bench team of Karno, Oly, and Stocks? I love the possibilities and the options. And once Few will show a pattern, he can change it up and create a matchup "nightmare" for our opposition.

willandi
11-24-2012, 08:13 AM
I think Kevin Pangos is a poor man's Dirk Nowitski!

BULLDOG#1
11-24-2012, 08:33 AM
I'm really impressed with what KO has shown. I know he's only two games in, but he looks great. He does seem much more willing to mix it up and play on the block -- which is what this team needs. He's playing much smarter post defense and he is a much improved rebounder. Loved his pick-and-roll slam... it sort of served notice.

Both KO and Karnowski look a lot better than Dower right now.

Since KO is skilled in many ways, Few can get away with playing him and Karnowski together for short periods. Much has been mentioned about the small lineup, but maybe a big lineup of KO, Karn, E, Drang, and Pangos would be an equally as effective lineup, depending on the situation.

Like what I see from Dranginis too, BTW. It's going to be hard not to give him more minutes.

I hope the bigs continue to dominate and absolutely control the glass against Davidson. We might need to, since they are one of the few teams that can possibly outshoot the zags from the perimeter.

ZaginLaw
11-24-2012, 09:30 AM
KO reminds me more of a faster and more skilled version Sean Mallon than a slower, less skilled version of Gordon Hayward.

KO isn't going to break any speed records or fool anyone on where he is driving and what he's going to do, just like Mallon. That's all.

tobizag
11-24-2012, 02:21 PM
For me Kelly doesn't possess the handle, quickness, athleticism or decisive perimeter offensive moves to be anything like the power forward many people imagine him to be. If he tries to create his own shot facing up people ala Harris, he gets swatted or travels almost everytime. He does have a nice looking long range perimeter shot and is good at tossing a high low pass, but that's about it.

I'd like to see the guards get him some low post feeds beyond just the pick and roll stuff where he can attack the basket directly without having to set up his defender. If he has to take any amount of time setting up his shot around the basket he's in trouble.

THANK YOU. been saying this myself all week to friends in the bar...most disagree with me.

sheps001
11-24-2012, 06:07 PM
Kelly will shake off the rust and be a good player. But what about Harris? He is playing at an NBA level right now. Do you see how he elevates? Unbelievable and he is personification of Zag basketball. He attacks the basket. So does Edi.

BULLDOG#1
11-24-2012, 06:27 PM
THANK YOU. been saying this myself all week to friends in the bar...most disagree with me.

I am with your friends. KO's skill set is best used just like Few is using it right now... He's really effective at the high pick and roll and can fade off the play for a mid-range jumper. I wouldn't suggest isolating him on the wing to try and break a defender down off the dribble, but he's got the skills of Mallon and he's a better athlete. The fact that he's a decent shooter and can make the high-low pass effectively is not a skill to overlook...

He IS a good enough shooter and passer to play on the wing and open the block for Harris, Dower, or Karnowski. Those three are all better scorers on the block than KO.

The redshirt season has definately bulked his body and encouraged him to play more 'garbage' ball... but I wouldn't use him exclusively there.

I never understood the notion of just putting KO on the block and have him play back to the basket just because he's seven feet tall. Crazy. Mike Hart isn't going to beat anyone off the dribble either, but nobody is suggesting he doesn't play the wing...

Plus, KO's a better rebounder from the wing where he can watch the ball rather than battle for position. I'm not saying take him away from the block, but rather he's best utilized if he plays back-to AND face-up.

CDC84
11-24-2012, 06:59 PM
That being said, that turn around jump shoot he connected on last night in the second half was a thing of beauty. That's an indefensible shot coming from a seven footer.

SWZag
11-24-2012, 08:29 PM
It appears to me that Kelly has a lot more energy and playing more like a Hart. Heís more mobile and would be hard to defend. Iím impressed so far with what Iíve seen in his first two games back, especially considering his time away from the speed of the college game. Itís only going to get better also.

And reading about how he learned to ďthink like the coachesĒ during this redshirt year only increases his basketball IQ and the ability to see the bigger picture. That is hard to put a value on, but itís pivotal.

SWZag

willandi
11-24-2012, 08:36 PM
I think KO is a rich man's Kelly Olynyk.

Oregonzagnut
11-24-2012, 10:41 PM
I think KO is a rich man's Kelly Olynyk.

Compared to my lifetime earnings, Mark Few is probably a rich man. Its the exceptional kids that want to play basketball for him that have made him so.

Apparently Fitz taught him the formula. It s right up there with KFC and Coke.

sheps001
11-25-2012, 03:23 AM
An argument could be made that Harris is the most improved player.
I agree. Harris is the most improved. It's clear he's healthy now and wow does he jump! Again he is the personification of Zag basketball. He attacks the basket. This is Zag ball. The juices really get flowing when they do this. Let's see more. Of course, so does
Edi but with not as much success.

ZenZag
11-25-2012, 07:41 AM
KO is going to be a key piece of the Zags juggernaut going forward. With the skills he has and the obvious time he spent in the weight room it will be fun to watch him continue to emerge as shakes the rust off. One exception: REBOUNDING.....he needs to hit the glass with much more ferocity and hunger.

I love it when we get to see both he and the Polish Express in the game at the same time....as the skills of these Twin Towers continues to improve I think they make a formidable pairing in many game situations. Come to think of it....it would be nice to see one/both develop into better shot blockers....

sheps001
11-25-2012, 07:48 AM
The lineup that took over the OU game was Dower, Harris, Edi, Pangos and Bell. The big's were decent last night but need to improve and will. The big three are Harris, Pangos and Bell. Would be nice to have a big four or five. I think this is why the commentators move us up to sweet sixteen and even elite eight but not final four.

Oregonzagnut
11-25-2012, 05:49 PM
Should Olynyk start over Dower? Or leave the lineups as is? Statistically and consistently, Kelly has played better. Dower takes a while to warm up and get in the flow

sittingon50
11-25-2012, 06:24 PM
All Tourney Team.

Nice debut after sitting out a year and a half +3.

:clap:

NotoriousZ
11-25-2012, 06:29 PM
Should Olynyk start over Dower? Or leave the lineups as is? Statistically and consistently, Kelly has played better. Dower takes a while to warm up and get in the flow

I love Dower off the bench. But who finishes the game (in a close contest) is most important, and I'd say that guy is Kelly right now.

GonzaGAW
11-25-2012, 07:49 PM
too early maybe to say who is or will be the most improved player.
my hunch is it will be olynyk.

i will say this, few is absolutely correct in saying olynyk is the best big man we have right now.

jim77
11-25-2012, 07:59 PM
too early maybe to say who is or will be the most improved player.
my hunch is it will be olynyk.

i will say this, few is absolutely correct in saying olynyk is the best big man we have right now.

Harris IS the best......Kelly O is also playing great.

Oregonzagnut
11-25-2012, 08:15 PM
Between Karno, Olynyk and Dower. I would try giving Kelly the start to see what happens. But I also like putting Kelly, Karno and Stockton in at the same time. It is a serious matchup blow to whatever team we are facing. It is too different yet still just as consistent and effective.

But right now Dower is not setting any solid tone for our team to start games off. We need ignition and bang, not stalling to start the game. that is when the opposition is at their most intense.