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jazzdelmar
11-13-2012, 04:56 AM
Yes, nice win. The starting guards are brilliant. I was very annoyed that Few pulled Pangos after missing two shots, he had made his first, to rush his security blanket Stockton in the game ASAP. He does same with Hart, he's done this forever. I'm pleased though that Bell got a good run. Despite five TOs I thought Stocks played well as did Hart. Edi was wonderful, a revelation. Harris slow start and didn't show NBA talent. Most of his points from line and only 60%.

Karno has long way to go. He does get points almost incidentally, tho. Dower is not a starter. He's just not. Looks to shoot, holds the ball. Either KO or Karno should start w Dower instant O off bench. Free throws were awful. Easy to gloss over in such a game but 60% ain't going to get Zags very far.

So nice win. WV is dreadful right now but Huggy is a good coach with disparate parts. Really disappointed in Murray. He was a stud at Lasalle.

gu03alum
11-13-2012, 05:48 AM
Yes, nice win. The starting guards are brilliant. I was very annoyed that Few pulled Pangos after missing two shots, he had made his first, to rush his security blanket Stockton in the game ASAP. He does same with Hart, he's done this forever. I'm pleased though that Bell got a good run. Despite five TOs I thought Stocks played well as did Hart. Edi was wonderful, a revelation. Harris slow start and didn't show NBA talent. Most of his points from line and only 60%.

Karno has long way to go. He does get points almost incidentally, tho. Dower is not a starter. He's just not. Looks to shoot, holds the ball. Either KO or Karno should start w Dower instant O off bench. Free throws were awful. Easy to gloss over in such a game but 60% ain't going to get Zags very far.

So nice win. WV is dreadful right now but Huggy is a good coach with disparate parts. Really disappointed in Murray. He was a stud at Lasalle.

Do you think KO will start when he comes back?

LongIslandZagFan
11-13-2012, 06:09 AM
Do you think KO will start when he comes back?

Yes.

john montana
11-13-2012, 06:17 AM
KO should start. I'm with Jazz on Dower coming off the bench to score.

cjm720
11-13-2012, 06:32 AM
Yes, nice win. The starting guards are brilliant. I was very annoyed that Few pulled Pangos after missing two shots, he had made his first, to rush his security blanket Stockton in the game ASAP. He does same with Hart, he's done this forever. I'm pleased though that Bell got a good run. Despite five TOs I thought Stocks played well as did Hart. Edi was wonderful, a revelation. Harris slow start and didn't show NBA talent. Most of his points from line and only 60%.

Karno has long way to go. He does get points almost incidentally, tho. Dower is not a starter. He's just not. Looks to shoot, holds the ball. Either KO or Karno should start w Dower instant O off bench. Free throws were awful. Easy to gloss over in such a game but 60% ain't going to get Zags very far.

So nice win. WV is dreadful right now but Huggy is a good coach with disparate parts. Really disappointed in Murray. He was a stud at Lasalle.

Agree with everything here.

sonuvazag
11-13-2012, 06:49 AM
Wasn't Pangos pulled due to foul trouble? I have a hard time believing the staff wants to inhibit his shooting.

bballbeachbum
11-13-2012, 06:52 AM
looked to me like Huggy had his boys primed to stop Elias so the team responded with others, another good early sign imo

john montana
11-13-2012, 06:52 AM
pangos came out when he got his 2nd foul.

AzZag
11-13-2012, 07:12 AM
Wow, I can't believe we lost so bad. Oh wait, we crushed a Big 12 team. My bad.
Everyone's a critic. Enjoy the big win.
I trust Coach Few and all he does. Sorry it wasn't a perfect game. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Could be worse. We could be Mountaineer fans.




Yes, nice win. The starting guards are brilliant. I was very annoyed that Few pulled Pangos after missing two shots, he had made his first, to rush his security blanket Stockton in the game ASAP. He does same with Hart, he's done this forever. I'm pleased though that Bell got a good run. Despite five TOs I thought Stocks played well as did Hart. Edi was wonderful, a revelation. Harris slow start and didn't show NBA talent. Most of his points from line and only 60%.

Karno has long way to go. He does get points almost incidentally, tho. Dower is not a starter. He's just not. Looks to shoot, holds the ball. Either KO or Karno should start w Dower instant O off bench. Free throws were awful. Easy to gloss over in such a game but 60% ain't going to get Zags very far.

So nice win. WV is dreadful right now but Huggy is a good coach with disparate parts. Really disappointed in Murray. He was a stud at Lasalle.

zag944
11-13-2012, 07:45 AM
One note about this big man logjam is that it doesnt look like it is going to be easy to bleed it into the small forward position...that somehow seems like our best position on the court right now. People seemed to think itd be Harris or Kelly there to create more room at the 4 and 5.

Edi looks incredible. Really showing a knack for finding points you don't expect, and is one of the key components of a GU perimeter defense that is actually good. Hart did what we all wanted him to last year and confidently made some open looks.

Martin Centre Mad Man
11-13-2012, 07:52 AM
One note about this big man logjam is that it doesnt look like it is going to be easy to bleed it into the small forward position...that somehow seems like our best position on the court right now. People seemed to think itd be Harris or Kelly there to create more room at the 4 and 5.



Coming into this season, I thought we'd see stretches of K.O. and Harris on the floor together as the two forwards with Dower or Karnivore at the 5. That was before I saw how much Edi (and to a lesser-extent, Hart) improved during the off-season. At this point, I just think that we need to divide the big man minutes between the big men and the wing minutes between the wings. It's not like we have a shortage of good players waiting for time at any position on the floor.

BeamerZag
11-13-2012, 08:02 AM
Stocks playing well was offset by some absolutely bone-headed passes and decisions. He has to play smart and slightly more conservative (not throwing passes he shouldn't or dribbling places he shouldn't)... something Pangos does surprisingly well given how young he is. Not worried about Kevin coming out. Coaches showed last year they are willing to let him shoot. If it was due to him shooting it was due to the fact we came out cold and should've gotten the ball inside. But once we heated up not a big deal. Agreed on the FT.

Remember PK is in a new country, new style of play, new quality of opponents, etc... but I'd say he is the most complete big man straight out of school we have had. And did you see his hands?! Good lord that guy can catch the ball. Looking forward to watching him improve.

Agreed on Dower. He just seems more comfortable once he has a chance to see how an opponent moves before going in.

Don't discount WV. We played impressive defense

Reborn
11-13-2012, 08:03 AM
Only one negative and that was Free Throw shooting. I thought the refs were horrible, but that's not unusual. Calling the game that close helped the Zags more than it helped WVU. We are much deeper.

I agree with CDC about Stockton. He really turned it over. 5 turnovers is just horrible. His defense, and hustle however made up for it. I really like his hustle this year. I think his defense, steals, tipped balls, and just creating chaos on D was an equalizer for the turnovers.

I really wish he had given Dranginis more of a chance. when he played he played great. I feel he needs more of Stocktons minutes. He is a way better passer. and he is a good rebounder too.

I thought PK played good. I really like his defense, and he showed he's a good rebounder too. I don't see where he hurt the Zags at all. I like his role in last night's game. Very solid. I think Dower played good too, and showed me that he can board. He played very hard, and was productive in my opinion. Our low post players definitely outplayed theirs. And that's all that is important. I think the strength of this years team is going to be our guards.

And what a treat it was to watch them. Great 3 point shooting, guys. Great. And great penetration to the hoop by them all. Bell and Edi are so strong going to the basket to score. The Zags had tons of shots inside the paint, and that's so very important. Especially when you consider how BIG WV is. WVU was not Southern Utah. They looked pretty big to me.

I couldn't be happier, really. To beat them by over 30 points just blows my mind. The criticisms seem like nick picking to me. I'm going to enjoy this one a lot. I was so impressed with their offensive sets, and how well they are running them. This is the best offense in years. They are really running the motion sets pretty darn well for the 2nd game, and the passing and screening was really good.

Go Zags!!!

hooter73
11-13-2012, 08:08 AM
Im skeptical of the KO phenomenon, But ive been saying it for a while now that Dower is just not the guy. Great off the bench but hes too passive and hasnt shown any growth. We're a couple games in now and hes a couple years in now, a slow start is not an OK answer. Karno will adjust and once he gets comfortable with the new game, his attitude is going to start to help him be the guy his size says he is.

BeamerZag
11-13-2012, 08:17 AM
Same feelings about KO. He has a lot to prove.

CDC84
11-13-2012, 08:18 AM
It's hard for any big man - much less Karno - to get into the flow of the game when he's getting fouls called on him that are so ticky tack. I expect him to be a target for foul trouble early on this season.

Once KO comes back, the beauty of this team is that Gonzaga has the frontcourt depth to bring PK along slowly. I see him getting better and better, both physically and mentally, as the season moves along. As Jazz implies, some of the success he's having out there right now is almost happening "incidentally." He is just so dang big that he is going to score and get rebounds at times regardless of what the opponent does. As I always say, you can't teach someone to be a 7 footer. That being said, he is highly skilled. That bounce pass he threw to Dower in the post (I think it was Sam) in the 2nd half was something that Rob Sacre, JP Batista, etc., couldn't dream of doing.

Sam Dower is totally out of position playing at center. That being said, I was very pleased by how he battled last night and how he showed more toughness than in the Southern Utah game. He wasn't always successful at times, but he at least showed some grit.

Zag4Hire
11-13-2012, 08:30 AM
Dower is not a starter. He's just not. Looks to shoot, holds the ball.


I always thought Dower as streaky and I was hoping there would have been a bit more progress to this point about how he works in the offensive scheme. From his first few touches, you can tell if Sam is going double digits or going cold. It is uncanny when the whole building knows he is going with his left and he still has the soft touch to find buckets. On the other hand, his limited post skills get him into trouble and one can quickly see if his initial move is going to payoff. Not to push the perimeter defense too far out against the primary weapons but I like Dower shooting those mid-range jumpers. Pull the other team's big out which can open up driving lanes for the guards and allow the forwards to conest for rebounds. Just my 2 cents. I like Sam a lot and one of the many good things you can say about him is a big shooting over 75% from the line over his years.

zag944
11-13-2012, 08:39 AM
I wouldnt say Im skeptical of the KO phenomenon, but I am annoyed by the writing off of Dower. A couple of his weaknesses as a player happen to be those things that really tick off some fans to the extent that they write off the good things he does (Shaun Alexander syndrome).

Dower does a lot of things really well. He was a projected All WCC player and Im really glad we have him. Maybe KO made some huge strides in his redshirt year, but Dower was on the floor that same year playing in big games. His minutes and starting spot arent going away without a fight...and one that I think he has a pretty good chance of winning.

MickMick
11-13-2012, 08:55 AM
Dower is a scorer and at times a banger. At times he looks like a liability. The offense flows beautifully until the ball ends up in his hands. He rarely passes out of bad situations and forces shots. When he is on, however, those forced shots go in.

When he is on, he can take over a game, but I don't know if GU needs that for thirty minutes a game considering how streaky he can be.

BobZag
11-13-2012, 08:56 AM
Equanimity. What, you think we all attended Manhattan U or something?

Nevtelen
11-13-2012, 09:02 AM
I'm going to enjoy this one a lot. I was so impressed with their offensive sets, and how well they are running them. This is the best offense in years. They are really running the motion sets pretty darn well for the 2nd game, and the passing and screening was really good.

Go Zags!!!

That's what I thought. I was really impressed with how much movement there was already in the offense and everybody seemed, for the most part, to know where to go and when to be there. WVU didn't know who to chase where and by the time they figured it out, the ball would be elsewhere. Pretty.

Bogozags
11-13-2012, 09:03 AM
Yes, nice win. The starting guards are brilliant. I was very annoyed that Few pulled Pangos after missing two shots, he had made his first, to rush his security blanket Stockton in the game ASAP. He does same with Hart, he's done this forever. I'm pleased though that Bell got a good run. Despite five TOs I thought Stocks played well as did Hart. Edi was wonderful, a revelation. Harris slow start and didn't show NBA talent. Most of his points from line and only 60%.

Karno has long way to go. He does get points almost incidentally, tho. Dower is not a starter. He's just not. Looks to shoot, holds the ball. Either KO or Karno should start w Dower instant O off bench. Free throws were awful. Easy to gloss over in such a game but 60% ain't going to get Zags very far.

So nice win. WV is dreadful right now but Huggy is a good coach with disparate parts. Really disappointed in Murray. He was a stud at Lasalle.

Good POST!

Not to concerned with Coach Few's substitutions as that is him and he isn't going to change.

However, KP does have some work to do but I really like his game...IMO he will be a force in WCC play as well as in the Dance.

SD, well, it is his 4th year and still NO RIGHT HAND. He isn't moving his feet on defence and does hold the ball on offence.

With regards to KO starting, have not seen KO play for an entire year so don't think he will start but come in quickly off the bench...Then again, he might have improved that much and will start immediately.

I do like the chemistry on this team and think that if we continue to get 15+ pts and 7+ rebounds from the SF, then we will be very hard to beat, especially with the addition of another Front Court player in KO.

One thing about Guy as Coach Few stated, he needs to "slow down" and play within himself like he has in the first three games! Seems like his "mind" moves before his body does and his ball handling isn't the greatest but rather adequate...

Big future for the Zags...

DADoZAG
11-13-2012, 10:57 AM
IMO…

Free throw shooting SHOULD improve every game as legs catch up to game speed.

KO will start at the 5 and, once his legs catch up, tickle ZAG fans nearly to death.

PK has a way to go, expecting a superstar the first big game is unrealistic. He’ll get there easily by next year, and having him and KO splitting the 5 for this year’s tourney will be fun. The position, with those two splitting the time, should be 25 and 12 by then.

Agree with those that don’t see Dower as a center, plus, he didn’t show worthy of being a starter last night. ‘Still hoping for more from Sam this year. I’d have him taking dance lessons but off the bench as a four will suit him better.

Stockton might want to take BeamerZag’s advice and “tighten” up. While it might not happen until it must, KD can play at point better than the Stockton that played in the second half last night. David’s play was a nice surprise up until that point, however, along with Hart (made two threes last night, right?). That said, I believe there are better, or will be better options than both.

Harris was forcing things. The bigs need to break the tradition of bull headed basketball that allows the D to plug the paint every time the ball gets down low. Pass it back out a few times for a wide open three and defenses will have to play them a bit more honest. That goes for all bigs.

Guy keeps improving by slowing his play. Bell will be as good as Bell aspires to be and my hope is he’s aspiring great things. Pangos should be averaging six assists, and the team should average 20.

After the players actually started playing, I enjoyed the first half. Second half not so much. Call it legs, call it let down with such a big lead, call it what you want, the second half was won by WVU. I’ll bet staff is letting the team know.

I get giddier every game. This team has a ton of potential.

Go ZAGS!

jim77
11-13-2012, 11:07 AM
Coming into this season, I thought we'd see stretches of K.O. and Harris on the floor together as the two forwards with Dower or Karnivore at the 5. That was before I saw how much Edi (and to a lesser-extent, Hart) improved during the off-season. At this point, I just think that we need to divide the big man minutes between the big men and the wing minutes between the wings. It's not like we have a shortage of good players waiting for time at any position on the floor.

yup

gonzagabasketball
11-13-2012, 11:14 AM
IMO…

Free throw shooting SHOULD improve every game as legs catch up to game speed.

KO will start at the 5 and, once his legs catch up, tickle ZAG fans nearly to death.

PK has a way to go, expecting a superstar the first big game is unrealistic. He’ll get there easily by next year, and having him and KO splitting the 5 for this year’s tourney will be fun. The position, with those two splitting the time, should be 25 and 12 by then.

Agree with those that don’t see Dower as a center, plus, he didn’t show worthy of being a starter last night. ‘Still hoping for more from Sam this year. I’d have him taking dance lessons but off the bench as a four will suit him better.

Stockton might want to take BeamerZag’s advice and “tighten” up. While it might not happen until it must, KD can play at point better than the Stockton that played in the second half last night. David’s play was a nice surprise up until that point, however, along with Hart (made two threes last night, right?). That said, I believe there are better, or will be better options than both.

Harris was forcing things. The bigs need to break the tradition of bull headed basketball that allows the D to plug the paint every time the ball gets down low. Pass it back out a few times for a wide open three and defenses will have to play them a bit more honest. That goes for all bigs.

Guy keeps improving by slowing his play. Bell will be as good as Bell aspires to be and my hope is he’s aspiring great things. Pangos should be averaging six assists, and the team should average 20.

After the players actually started playing, I enjoyed the first half. Second half not so much. Call it legs, call it let down with such a big lead, call it what you want, the second half was won by WVU. I’ll bet staff is letting the team know.

I get giddier every game. This team has a ton of potential.

Go ZAGS!

GU out scored WVU 39-32 in the second half.

jim77
11-13-2012, 11:16 AM
Sam showed some nice flash last night....I loved his rush to the hoop and score as the WV player tried to stop him....he might not be as aggressive as most want but, he's already more then he was last year. When KO returns we should be almost foul-proof.

JPtheBeasta
11-13-2012, 03:33 PM
Sam showed some nice flash last night....I loved his rush to the hoop and score as the WV player tried to stop him....he might not be as aggressive as most want but, he's already more then he was last year. When KO returns we should be almost foul-proof.

I think Dower is more of finesse guy than the guy he is replacing. I agree with the others who think he is more of a power forward than a center. I don't see it as a huge knock on him- I just think he is out of position. Karnowski or Olynyk (if he has improved as much as they say he has) at the center and Harris/Dower at the 4 would be a decent rotation. West Virginia was a tough game for bigs on both sides, so I will take this game with a grain of salt.

Zag79
11-13-2012, 03:58 PM
I think Dower is more of finesse guy than the guy he is replacing. I agree with the others who think he is more of a power forward than a center. I don't see it as a huge knock on him- I just think he is out of position. Karnowski or Olynyk (if he has improved as much as they say he has) at the center and Harris/Dower at the 4 would be a decent rotation. West Virginia was a tough game for bigs on both sides, so I will take this game with a grain of salt.

+1. Sam is a 4, and is being asked to play the 5 with KO being out. When Kelly comes back, I expect to see a better Sam. He is a finesse player, a better scorer than banger ala Sacre. Nothing wrong with that. I for one love the depth we have with our bigs, and each one of them brings something very different to the table. This team is deep, and it will benefit us so much more as the season goes along.

Baldwinzag
11-13-2012, 04:02 PM
Surprised Stocks received 3rd most mins vs West Va, yet much deserved.

the answer is, yes.

KO is the starter by Dec 1st.

Just a feelin' and what I'm hearin'...

UberZagFan
11-13-2012, 04:04 PM
As for the OP, the only negative thing Jazz mentions that Uber will comment on is the free throws. You hear about Guy or whoever in the weight room all off season or this or that guy in the gym shooting 100s or 1000s of threes a day. Uber wants to know why everyone wasn't shooting 2000 free throws a day. 60% and under from the line is unacceptable for this type of team.

DADoZAG
11-13-2012, 04:16 PM
GU out scored WVU 39-32 in the second half.

Ha!

That's what happens when old men stay up after midnight drinking scotch and watching basketball. :D

I guess I just FELT that the ZAGS lost the 2nd half!

Go ZAGS!

gueastcoast
11-13-2012, 04:56 PM
Lot of good thoughts here on both sides of the argument re: Sam. I think the key with Sam as the year progresses (and we saw some of this last year) is defensive matchups. That "rhythm" that some posters refer to is often a function of the defensive look we are facing. I trust coach to know when Sam's stuff is more or less likely to "play" against a given team/matchup. One of the many benefits of being as deep as we appear to be up front this year.

gonzagabasketball
11-13-2012, 05:35 PM
Ha!

That's what happens when old men stay up after midnight drinking scotch and watching basketball. :D

I guess I just FELT that the ZAGS lost the 2nd half!

Go ZAGS!

In the words of the great Colonel Sanders, "Im too drunk, to taste this chicken."

Hey, it happens. The fact that WVU made any baskets at all gave it a feel that they failed to dominate as thoroughly as they did in the first half. Though, if my math is correct, they actually extended their lead.

RenoZag
11-13-2012, 06:06 PM
Sam Dower is totally out of position playing at center. That being said, I was very pleased by how he battled last night and how he showed more toughness than in the Southern Utah game. He wasn't always successful at times, but he at least showed some grit.

Re-watched the game this evening. Thought Sam was playing scrappy ball, fighting for rebounds, lots of energy. . .he was engaged on defense.

Wouldn't shock me to see him rack up a "GUnit" or two this season.

sittingon50
11-13-2012, 06:21 PM
Big diff. between Sam's 1st half & 2nd half; may have been conditioning.

He got hurt right after (full team) practice got underway. Played 30 mins. last night, way beyond his usual. But he stepped up in the 1st half 'cause E was in foul trouble. E got it going in the 2nd, Sam stepped back.

Will agree with most folks, he's not a 5.