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SLOZag
10-28-2012, 04:37 PM
I found some interesting reading on Wikipedia about GU that might be news for some Board members, as it was for me. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzaga_Bulldogs_men%27s_basketball#Career_steal_l eaders
(This assumes, of course, that Wiki has the facts right.):

1. Coach Few (79 % win average) is not the first, nor even the second or third most winning mens BB coach at GU in terms of winning percentage. The top honors go to Coach Frank McKevitt, 1910-11, with 8 wins vs. 1 loss for an 88.9 % win average; Coach Charles Henry, 1943-44, with 22 wins vs. 4 losses for an 84.6 % win average; and coach George Varnell, 1908-09, with 10 wins vs. 2 losses for an 83.3 % win average.
2. Coach Few does have the most wins, however.
3. Jeremy Pargo, a player routinely criticised by many during his playing career, as of the end of the 2010-11 season was #3 in career assists (ahead of John Stockton), and tied for #2 in career steals (with Matt Bouldin).

There's lots more there for the viewing. I'm sure Wiki would appreciate any corrections or updates any Zag fans would like to make.

Oregonzagnut
10-28-2012, 07:20 PM
Routinely criticized?

He wasn't criticized more than anyone else. I think they are thinking of 2-3 other people. I won't name names but there are 4-5 others who actually got the criticism they deserved.

Johnnygu
10-28-2012, 08:45 PM
Pargo was criticized a bit after the battle in seattle game against uconn, but for the most part is one of the most well liked zags in recent history.

I can name five old zags off the top of my head that were much more criticized....heytvelt, daye, goodson, Pmac, foster (none deserved really)

Also, I don't think that's wiki's opinion, but SLOzag's opinion.

kingzag
10-28-2012, 09:34 PM
Pargo is also the all-time career leader in turnovers for Gonzaga .

2wiceright
10-28-2012, 11:54 PM
Pargo is also the all-time career leader in turnovers for Gonzaga .

Link: http://www.sports-
reference.com/cbb/conferences/wcc/leaders/tov-player-career.html (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/wcc/leaders/tov-player-career.html)

Pargo had less than To's than both Gray, Bouldin, and Sacre since 2005. The link gives and excellent breakdown of all WCC players and where they stand in the category of career turnovers. In Fact, some such as Delladova has a year to play and already has 51 more TO's than Pargo did in 4 years. I picked a few of interest here....

2005 to Current...
Gonzaga Players only: #19 Jeremy Pargo with 192 career turnovers.
#16 Steven Gray- 209 CTO's
#15 Matt Bouldin- 212 CTO's
#10 (Tie) Robert Sacre 220 CTO's (Note I only put Robert in there to compare to a couple of ST. Mary's Finest)

All Other WCC Teams...#1 Keon Bell 325 CTO's in 3 years.
#2 Rob Jones 302 CTO's
#4 Kevin Foster 270 CTO's
My Favorite.............#7 DELLADOVA (with 1 year to play) 243 CTO's
Ties with Sacre at #10 Mickey McConell 220 CTO's
My respect for.... # 30 Patti Mills 166 CTO"s (Matt Carlino for BYU already has 75 turnovers his freshman year)

Oregonzagnut
10-29-2012, 12:20 AM
2005 to Current...
Gonzaga Players only: #19 Jeremy Pargo with 192 career turnovers.
#16 Steven Gray- 209 CTO's
#15 Matt Bouldin- 212 CTO's
#10 (Tie) Robert Sacre 220 CTO's (Note I only put Robert in there to compare to a couple of ST. Mary's Finest)

All Other WCC Teams...#1 Keon Bell 325 CTO's in 3 years.
#2 Rob Jones 302 CTO's
#4 Kevin Foster 270 CTO's
My Favorite.............#7 DELLADOVA (with 1 year to play) 243 CTO's
Ties with Sacre at #10 Mickey McConell 220 CTO's
My respect for.... # 30 Patti Mills 166 CTO"s (Matt Carlino for BYU already has 75 turnovers his freshman year)

Wow, come to think of it, Sacre got quite a bit of criticism, but not for turnovers if I remember. It was that hesitation-dribble-pump fake post move that got the most "critique".

zag944
10-29-2012, 07:08 AM
Pargo was somewhat unfairly maligned for not being a distributor and tried to change his game a little senior year to accommodate those criticisms (which mainly game from scouts at the combine I guess). It was probably the only year in the last 7 or 8 where he didnt look like an NBA level talent.
I thought the guy was as special as just about any guard we've had here over this run of consecutive tourneys personally.

bigblahla
10-29-2012, 07:38 AM
Believe me, Pargo was criticized often; especially his senior year. Not saying he was criticized more or less than anyone else, but this board certainly spent a lot of time nitpicking Jeremy's game.

To me it was his decision making not the rest of his his game. Loved his game, still do.

Go!! Zags!!!

kingzag
10-29-2012, 09:28 AM
Link: http://www.sports-
reference.com/cbb/conferences/wcc/leaders/tov-player-career.html (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/wcc/leaders/tov-player-career.html)

Pargo had less than To's than both Gray, Bouldin, and Sacre since 2005. The link gives and excellent breakdown of all WCC players and where they stand in the category of career turnovers. In Fact, some such as Delladova has a year to play and already has 51 more TO's than Pargo did in 4 years. I picked a few of interest here....

2005 to Current...
Gonzaga Players only: #19 Jeremy Pargo with 192 career turnovers.
#16 Steven Gray- 209 CTO's
#15 Matt Bouldin- 212 CTO's
#10 (Tie) Robert Sacre 220 CTO's (Note I only put Robert in there to compare to a couple of ST. Mary's Finest)

All Other WCC Teams...#1 Keon Bell 325 CTO's in 3 years.
#2 Rob Jones 302 CTO's
#4 Kevin Foster 270 CTO's
My Favorite.............#7 DELLADOVA (with 1 year to play) 243 CTO's
Ties with Sacre at #10 Mickey McConell 220 CTO's
My respect for.... # 30 Patti Mills 166 CTO"s (Matt Carlino for BYU already has 75 turnovers his freshman year)

Wow. Your way off. Pargo had 54,111, 111 and 84 turnovers in his 4 years. No one in the history of the program has even been close. You need to check your facts a little better.

2wiceright
10-29-2012, 09:31 AM
Believe me, Pargo was criticized often; especially his senior year. Not saying he was criticized more or less than anyone else, but this board certainly spent a lot of time nitpicking Jeremy's game.

+1 Seems like yesterday....People seem to have short memories, especially when said player does well at the next level....

RenoZag
10-29-2012, 09:36 AM
Pargo was kingzag's favorite player. . .that's why he knows his stats by heart.

kingzag
10-29-2012, 09:38 AM
Link: http://www.sports-
reference.com/cbb/conferences/wcc/leaders/tov-player-career.html (http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/wcc/leaders/tov-player-career.html)

Pargo had less than To's than both Gray, Bouldin, and Sacre since 2005. The link gives and excellent breakdown of all WCC players and where they stand in the category of career turnovers. In Fact, some such as Delladova has a year to play and already has 51 more TO's than Pargo did in 4 years. I picked a few of interest here....

2005 to Current...
Gonzaga Players only: #19 Jeremy Pargo with 192 career turnovers.
#16 Steven Gray- 209 CTO's
#15 Matt Bouldin- 212 CTO's
#10 (Tie) Robert Sacre 220 CTO's (Note I only put Robert in there to compare to a couple of ST. Mary's Finest)

All Other WCC Teams...#1 Keon Bell 325 CTO's in 3 years.
#2 Rob Jones 302 CTO's
#4 Kevin Foster 270 CTO's
My Favorite.............#7 DELLADOVA (with 1 year to play) 243 CTO's
Ties with Sacre at #10 Mickey McConell 220 CTO's
My respect for.... # 30 Patti Mills 166 CTO"s (Matt Carlino for BYU already has 75 turnovers his freshman year)

Your stats are from 2007-2008 on. Includes only two years from Pargo. Actually this makes Pargo number one in career turnovers for the entire WCC.

kingzag
10-29-2012, 09:44 AM
Pargo was kingzag's favorite player. . .that's why he knows his stats by heart.

Good memory Reno. I wish I could wipe Pargo from my memory.

zag944
10-29-2012, 09:50 AM
It was part of his game. In his worst turnover year (jr. season) he was also tied for 19th in the nation in assists. A lot of people here only pointed out the weaknesses while he played though and it was kind of sad to see. High turnover guy Blake Stepp never recieved nearly as much criticsm.

He dropped his average by a whole turnover senior season, but wasnt nearly as effective of a player in my opinion.

Johnnygu
10-29-2012, 11:14 AM
+1 Seems like yesterday....People seem to have short memories, especially when said player does well at the next level....

We didn't forget, just didn't bother listening to the posts by those people so we never knew the extent to which pargo was criticized. Negative posts are just noise after a while.

UKWildcatsFan
10-29-2012, 12:02 PM
A good portion of that wiki article is stuff that I put on there. The page was weak before I got my hands on it, and I thought this program deserved a bigger wiki article.

SLOZag
10-29-2012, 12:23 PM
A good portion of that wiki article is stuff that I put on there. The page was weak before I got my hands on it, and I thought this program deserved a bigger wiki article.

Many thanks, UKWildcatsFan!!

2wiceright
10-29-2012, 11:26 PM
Wow. Your way off. Pargo had 54,111, 111 and 84 turnovers in his 4 years. No one in the history of the program has even been close. You need to check your facts a little better.

Sorry Kingzag, It gives you the option of career To's on top, or yearly- I screwed up. I went to another site and got the exact stats you listed for each of his four years....

2wiceright
10-29-2012, 11:29 PM
We didn't forget, just didn't bother listening to the posts by those people so we never knew the extent to which pargo was criticized. Negative posts are just noise after a while.

I couldn't agree more. That's why it's such slugfest on here from some - especially after a loss.:agreed:

2wiceright
10-30-2012, 10:25 AM
Wow. Your way off. Pargo had 54,111, 111 and 84 turnovers in his 4 years. No one in the history of the program has even been close. You need to check your facts a little better.

Actually Kingzag, (not that this changes things re:Pargos turnovers) the site I linked was pretty screwed up. Even though on top it stated two years (2007, 2008), it takes almost anyone else (John Bryant from Santa Clara for example) and it gives 4 years worth of stats - in this case turnovers. He played from 2006-2009 and had a total of 243 turnovers for 4 years. (then I went to another site and came up w/similar figure - 257-I assume the difference is a postseason game).

Point is they give 4 years of stats starting from before 2007. This same site on Pargo only list his Junior and Senior years of turnovers, but 4 years of all his other stats. Not sure why so screwed up. Here's the link for those who liked Pargo as IMHO he was impressive in most other categories...

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/jeremy-pargo-1.html#players-advanced::none ____________________________________

Norcalzag
10-30-2012, 11:07 AM
Jeremy Pargo was one of those Gonzaga players who could both dazzle and disappoint. In Palo Alto back in 2007, I saw him put the team on his shoulders late in the game and lead the Zags to a win over Stanford. In Seattle in 2008, I saw him self-destruct late against UConn. All in all, he had an outstanding basketball career at Gonzaga.
At the risk of interrupting the back-and-forth over Pargo's standing I'd like to interject a note about one of the coaches montioned in the initial post on this thread. George Varnell was a huge figure in early day athletics at Gonzaga. He was not only a winning basketball coach but also the coach who resurrected Gonzaga's football program in 1908 -- at the same time that he was sports editor of the Spokane Chronicle. (Varnelllater later became sports editor of the Seattle Times.)
After his team's 1910 win over rival Montana, Varnell used his soapbox at the Chronicle to promote the idea of building a football stadium on the Gonzaga campus. The staium was built, and even expanded a couple of times, but in the end proved to be a big financial drain on the school.
Prior to his days as a coach at Gonzaga and as a newspaperman, Varnell was a track star and competed in the 1904 Olympics, placing fourth in both the 200 and 400 hurdles.

U Zig, I Zag
10-30-2012, 02:53 PM
...it takes almost anyone else (John Bryant from Santa Clara for example) and it gives 4 years worth of stats - in this case turnovers. He played from 2006-2009 and had a total of 243 turnovers for 4 years. (then I went to another site and came up w/similar figure - 257-I assume the difference is a postseason game).

14 TO's in one game? The worst post season game ever!

;)

2wiceright
10-30-2012, 04:55 PM
14 TO's in one game? The worst post season game ever!

;)

Actually, I should have said post-season play instead of game. :o Can't catch a break on this ( OT) part of thread.

I wanted to mention (if Kingzag is still around), someone mentioned Blake Stepp had a lot of turnovers. I just plugged in his name for career stats and he had 356 turnovers in his GU career (one search of Pargo by stats showed he had 357=54+ 111+111+81 ). Virtually a dead heat, and I'm not going mess with this anymore.... There may be other zags in this category if one was to go searching (maybe you have). But it would be hard for anyone to approach those numbers if they A) didn't handle the ball every play and B) weren't good enough in other areas for them to get the type of minutes they did. So maybe these are the only two, but I'm done with only searching these two players...

I get your point, though, and respect the fact that he was very turnover prone and not one of your favorite players- possibly due to aggresive style of played. But to portray him as GU's turnover machine of all time w/out equal is a stretch- based on looking up one other individual player with 'virtually' the same # of turnovers in thier college career. Peace- I really dind't intend to make such a big ordeal over this. :horse: (me)