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View Full Version : What're the expectations for Karno and Kelly?



Malastein
07-12-2012, 02:34 PM
Thats my biggest question this offseason, and I'd love to hear both speculation and observation, if at all possible.

cjm720
07-12-2012, 02:43 PM
My expectations:

Olynyk - 20+ minutes per game. WCC honorable mention.

Karno - 10+ minutes per game. Really comes along ways through the seaons and helps us get to E8.

zag buddy
07-12-2012, 03:21 PM
I agree with CJM. I think Kelly's offensive production will outproform Mr K. Also there some reports last year that Kelly's defense had improved dramaticcally. We are loaded at all positions.

SweetOnionZag
07-12-2012, 03:34 PM
Thats my biggest question this offseason, and I'd love to hear both speculation and observation, if at all possible.

To relieve Sam and E and not miss a beat............

bartruff1
07-12-2012, 04:25 PM
To relieve Sam and E and not miss a beat............ Until further notice, I agree...they will be tough to get off the court..

75Zag
07-12-2012, 04:44 PM
In my dreams I think KO and The Big Pole will dominate the NCAA men's BB and slap those Kentucky tobacco farmers in the face. But when I sober up and wake up, I realize that both players are unknown on the national stage, and that either or both of them may be dominating players or they may be total busts or they may be somewhere in between.

I salute those of you who can predict with 100% accuracy how KO or The Big Pole will perform.

Go Bulldogs!

Oregonzagnut
07-13-2012, 04:56 AM
What're the expectations for Karno and Kelly?

Karno is a true frosh so my expectations are on seeing Kelly's improvement. Expectations will be high for KO. But here are mine.

1. No injuries. :pray:

2. I expect Kelly is much better to win/earn the starting 5 spot.

3. 24 pts combined,14 rebs combined, 3 bks combined,4 ast combined. 60% FG, 70% FT, 40% 3pt. :drool:

4. I expect a confident, aggressive KO with a shot as smooth as Dower (14 pts, 6 rebs, 3 ast).

5. I expect Karnowski to be a "This is my spot, you can't have it" type of dominance in the paint (10 pts, 8 rebs, 2 blk). :boxing:

6. Between the two, I expect a true 5 to dominate the post, sans the hesitation-head-fake-dribble-then-shoot, We have the size to equal or beat any frontcourt int he nation! :adored:

NotoriousZ
07-13-2012, 08:16 AM
Neither of these guys can defend like Sacre did. However, both of these guys can pass out of the post with the best of bigs out there. Both can also shoot very well. This could be the highest scoring team we've ever had.

I am looking forward to seeing these two in action. Karno should be amazing, but I especially want to see how much more of a post game the new and improved Olynyk gained.

Improvements by Kelly and Sam on defense could be the key to a deep tourney run this year. I think if we focus on what we can do really well (rebounding), we will have a great season.

VaBeachZAG
07-13-2012, 09:51 AM
It's only natural that the faithfull have positive expectations for both KO and PK. Some expectations will be sky high and others will be more cautious and muted.

I love the fact that both KO and PK (as well as Dower and Harris) will right off the bat face a huge challenge from the WV bigs. Kilicli is an absolute monster in the paint and my expectation is that both KO and PK will be more than able to hold their own against him. I fully expect the WV matchup to be a big test of the toughness of all our bigs. We have lots of offensive talent in our bigs, but (with the exception of Harris) I have yet to see any consistent defensive toughness from this group. I think WV will reveal much on this point, one way or the other!

hooter73
07-13-2012, 11:06 AM
My expectations:

Olynyk - 20+ minutes per game. WCC honorable mention.

Karno - 10+ minutes per game. Really comes along ways through the seaons and helps us get to E8.

best answer and only realistic expectations there should be.




3. 24 pts combined,14 rebs combined, 3 bks combined,4 ast combined. 60% FG, 70% FT, 40% 3pt. :drool:

4. I expect a confident, aggressive KO with a shot as smooth as Dower (14 pts, 6 rebs, 3 ast).

5. I expect Karnowski to be a "This is my spot, you can't have it" type of dominance in the paint (10 pts, 8 rebs, 2 blk). :boxing:



Those are top ten in the country type of numbers. Any one in this camp is going to be underwhelmed, letdown, disappointed and calling for Fews head.

ZagsGoZags
07-15-2012, 12:56 PM
I am expecting KO to take over the 5 spot in the Fall, with Karnage possibly rising fast in Feb to challenge that

I am expecting Few to run three big men at a time if we can get effective defense out of them

and if that happens Elias may gravitate to the smaller of the three big men for a lot of the time

IMHO expectations are just that, not willing to predict anything at this point, more hope than forecast

75Zag
07-15-2012, 02:15 PM
I have no expectations for The Big Pole because I have absolutely no idea what we are getting.

KO is a different story. There have been a ton of posts on this site by people who claim to have seen KO in the weight room or the gym and those posts are all very positive. Hopefully KO will be ready to take up Sacre's position, perhaps with more offense and more blocked shots. Could KO become GU's first player to get a triple double? 10 points, 10 rebounds, 10 blocks. I sure hope so.

By the way, can anybody tell me what KO's vertical jump is?

Go Bulldogs!

MDABE80
07-15-2012, 02:16 PM
KO understands the game at GU. He was given a clipboard so he'd understand it further. Kelly is hard to predict. We haven't seen him since his year off.
I hope he's doing 15-5. He could.

Karno is an unknown since we really haven't seen him either. According to the experts, he's got the talent, bulk and good understanding of basketball that should get him 10 ppg. I'd say 10 boards too seeing his videos. If the Euro game translate well to college D1, he'll do fine. I'm just not sure it does.

We'll see.

Oregonzagnut
07-15-2012, 02:21 PM
best answer and only realistic expectations there should be.

Those are top ten in the country type of numbers. Any one in this camp is going to be underwhelmed, letdown, disappointed and calling for Fews head.

Why do you think 14 pts and 6 rebounds by Kelly is top 10 in the country?

Why is 10 pts 8 rebs by Karno not going to happen? I have never called for Fews head, but the last 3-4 years I have expected more. I expect an elite 8 or better.

I think most of do, and I don't expect less than our best. That is all I want.

MDABE80 actually has slightly higher possible numbers than I do, (combined numbers). 25 and 15

OZZY
07-15-2012, 02:25 PM
I've put my opinion of KO's numbers down before for the next season. For those who think that Karnage will be the 5 at the beginning of the year I just want to point out that currently he is playing against Under 20 players, and playing reasonably well, but Kelly played against seasoned pros last summer and was at times the most effective player on the court. Karnage may well get serious numbers toward the end of the year as he gets acclimatised to the NCA D1 game, but I believe that the 5 spot is Kelly's to lose.

KO is going into his fourth year in the system, I may be going out on a limb, but he could up being the most complete player on the team by years end. On thing is for sure, there will not be anyone with more passion for the team than KO.

zag67
07-15-2012, 03:07 PM
I think that our bigs will do well and that they will be fun to watch. I believe that KO, Karn, Dower and Harris will be doing about 90 to 100 minutes (also assuming that they can play a solid defense together) a game. How they are split will depend on how well they are playing. In the beginning I think that our existing big 3 will get the majority, with Karn being brought along at a reasonable rate. But I do have to also say, that I think that we can be agressive and not worry as much about people getting in foul trouble.

Now that 10 to 20 minutes may not be available if our 3s step up to the plate. So I am just waiting to enjoy a fun season and lots of wins. Hopefully no injuries and the players learn to play well together.

roxdoc
07-15-2012, 08:56 PM
I would like to see Kelly really put it together this year. He is a great young man and has much potential on the court. However, every year we have heard the Kelly supporters saying how much he has improved, going to blow up, been playing internationally, against pros, etc. etc. Then the season comes and expectations aren't met. Really hope this year is different - come on guy show us your stuff!

MickMick
07-15-2012, 09:36 PM
Pangos and Bell will make those two better. That is what great guards do. Make the other players around them better.

KO and Karno are very fortunate to have such skilled players to work with.

Because of this, I expect them both to do very well.

hooter73
07-15-2012, 10:01 PM
...currently he - Karn - is playing against Under 20 players, and playing reasonably well...

and his averages are not those of a one and done player... im just saying.

zaguarxj
07-16-2012, 07:04 AM
Am I the only one here who cringes when he sees PK called "the big Pole?" Maybe I need to lighten up but I really don't like that one.

Birddog
07-16-2012, 07:32 AM
Am I the only one here who cringes when he sees PK called "the big Pole?" Maybe I need to lighten up but I really don't like that one.
Me too.

cjm720
07-16-2012, 08:19 AM
Am I the only one here who cringes when he sees PK called "the big Pole?" Maybe I need to lighten up but I really don't like that one.

Count me in too...

kitzbuel
07-16-2012, 08:33 AM
The Dude.

TacomaZAG
07-16-2012, 09:44 AM
for both KO and Karnage are as follows:

1. Pass out of the post better than the guys last year. With our proven sharpshooters (GBJ and KP, plus EH hits it well from deep when open) and redshirt (Drang) we should be able to absolutely drill teams this year. Also, with the defense forced to extend, it will open up the middle for KO, Karnage, SD, and EH.

2. Replace Rob's rebounding and post presence. I think Rob's contributions were underrated last year and will be seriously missed this year unless KO and Karnage step up. Also, I hope SD has improved his defense over last year, as he will be counted on for much more than "instant offense" off the bench.

3. Any serious scoring either of those guys does will be icing on the cake. I see most of our points coming from the 1-3 positions, with EH and SD adding their share as well. KO and Karnage don't necessarily need to score much to have a HUGE impact.

Go ZAGS

BULLDOG#1
07-16-2012, 12:56 PM
I would expect KO to be more athletic. He had a decent soph season, but one big downside is that he needed to physically 'grow into his body' -- I expect that he's now done that and will be much more effective on defensive rotations and covering areas (especally weakside help) within a zone.

I expect he'll be a team leader and a great locker room guy. He will very likely feed off mid-range jumpers as teams double the post with Dower and Harris working down low. He is already the best passing big man on the team and will see even more passing angles now that he's playing with Bell and Pangos. I think he'll be extremely effective at a high-low game working with the other bigs.

KO has a great bball IQ, but his body couldn't keep up with his mind -- at least that's how it looked to me. I suspect the year off really helped this and we'll see a key component to the team.

I expect both KO and Karn will have a high FG%, but not take a lot of shots. They'll both be solid assist guys, #'s based on minutes played. I expect they'll be efficient players.

Karn -- If he can't get more than 6 rebounds vs low level FIBA teams, I can't see him averaging more than that in the WCC. I expect him to be a servicable (probably foul foul a lot) bench big man. He's an unknown, tho...I expect him to have better numbers and more minutes than spangler, but not a lot better, given that he's got KO and Sam playing in front of him. Having seen some of the footage of Karn, it wouldn't shock me if there were a couple games this year where he completely dominated, especially against lesser teams with no post players with size.

It will be near impossible for either of them, let alone both, to average double digit scoring ('maybe' KO with more minutes). I think we'll already see double digits out of Harris, Bell, Pangos, and Dower. If Edi is the starting 3, then he'll likely approach double digits. If KO starts at the 5 and Harris is the 3, then KO may get double digits...

There's a lot of firepower on the team, but I don't think there will be enough points scored for all those players to average double figures. I expect both KO and Karn with know their role on the team and leave the scoring to the others...

Martin Centre Mad Man
07-16-2012, 02:27 PM
I expect that Kelly will be the second best front court player in the WCC behind only Brandon Davies. Yes, I think he is going to be better than Elias Harris. As a sophomore, he was an effective ball-handler, with great court-vision and a nice outside shot, but I wasn't sure that those leftover point guard skills would ever be useful for a player with his size.

I had my doubts about his abilities right up until the St. John's game when he broke the vaunted St. John's press repeatedly with a combination of great court vision, efficient ball-handling, and well-placed passing. He handled the St. John's press better than David Stockton. The St. John's game confirmed that this kid was already the best passing big man that we've had, since J.P. Batista. That was the only game I remember where Coach Few left him and Sacre on the court for lengthy periods of time and let him feed Sacre from the high post to the low post. St. John's had no answer for him. He has the court vision of a guy who grew up playing as a point guard and he would calmly survey the court, looking right over defenders to make a great pass at exactly the right time. Very few of our opponents have the ability to put two guys over 6'9" on the floor at the same time. If we leave him out there with another true post (Dower, Karno), teams are going to have to guard him with 6'7" defenders and he's going to pass and shoot right over them as easily as he did against the Red Storm.

As a sophomore, he had yet to develop a post game, because he had spent so many years playing guard. Even then, he was the team's rebounding leader (per minute) when he was admittedly still learning to use his larger body and needed to get stronger. Now that he's had two years to hit the weight room and develop some post moves, I can't imagine any of the 6'8" WCC centers being able to shut him down. If he can just stay out of foul trouble, I see him emerging as one of the top five players in the league.

Baseline
07-17-2012, 08:21 PM
I'm looking for a big year from Kelly. I think he will play more under control on defense. Kelly is a good passer and ball handler for a big. The only thing that used to drive me crazy about Kelly was his hesitation to shoot and just passing off. He is a good shooter, I hope he puts it up this year.

ZagMan
07-18-2012, 07:22 AM
...Karn -- He's an unknown, tho...I expect him to have better numbers and more minutes than spangler, but not a lot better, given that he's got KO and Sam playing in front of him. Having seen some of the footage of Karn, it wouldn't shock me if there were a couple games this year where he completely dominated, especially against lesser teams with no post players with size.

Didn't Spangler transfer out? Oklahoma?

I think Karn will play much less than Kelly at first, it will take a while for him to get up to speed, but he will be good in the paint. It will be hard to replace Sacre's brick wall defense down there, but they should do fine. I'm wondering how all our bigs will get enough playing time to avoid another transfer next year.

GonzagasaurusFlex
07-18-2012, 09:00 AM
I expect that Kelly will be the second best front court player in the WCC behind only Brandon Davies.

Love KO's game and hope he earns major minutes, but I'm not sure he'll prove to be the 2nd best post player on this team let alone the entire WCC. Elias is the #1 frontcourt player for Zags this year then it's a toss up between Dower and KO.

Personally, I don't like Sam and EH on the court at the same time. The key will be whether or not KO can adjust his game to be an on-the-block post scorer/rebounder when playing alongside EH and Sam; and be more of a high-post feeder / roamer when playing alongside our Big big Karno.

JPtheBeasta
07-18-2012, 09:29 AM
I'm looking for a big year from Kelly. I think he will play more under control on defense. Kelly is a good passer and ball handler for a big. The only thing that used to drive me crazy about Kelly was his hesitation to shoot and just passing off. He is a good shooter, I hope he puts it up this year.

+1. I hope he finishes with more authority around the rim as well. Other than a few outback dunks, he has showcased Mallon-esque hops thus far.

hooter73
07-18-2012, 10:01 AM
After reading this thread I think the answer to the question of "What're the expectations for Karno and Kelly?" is "Too High."

hockeyzag
07-18-2012, 10:12 AM
+1. I hope he finishes with more authority around the rim as well. Other than a few outback dunks, he has showcased Mallon-esque hops thus far.

+1

zag944
07-18-2012, 10:21 AM
After reading this thread I think the answer to the question of "What're the expectations for Karno and Kelly?" is "Too High."

Karno is really an unknown, but Fran Fraschilla really got my hopes up when he'd be in all the high school ASGs if he was American. My expectation is that he fits well into the program and is properly groomed for a star player type roll in years 3 & 4. My hope, and I dont think it is horribly unrealistic, is that he is the best freshmen center we've had over this tourney run of ours.

The expectations for Kelly are what really suprise me. I love that he took a redshirt year, and I think its great for the program. He was getting 14 minutes and putting up 6 pts and 4 rebs last season. How many minutes are we expecting him to get this year? He's competing with Karno for backup big man minutes, and Edi/Hart/KD for SF minutes (some of KDs time will be at guard backup of course). I think he could be better than all four of those guys, but I also don't think it's a given that he will be more effective than ANY of them, much less Harris and Dower.

cjm720
07-18-2012, 10:30 AM
Karno is really an unknown, but Fran Fraschilla really got my hopes up when he'd be in all the high school ASGs if he was American. My expectation is that he fits well into the program and is properly groomed for a star player type roll in years 3 & 4. My hope, and I dont think it is horribly unrealistic, is that he is the best freshmen center we've had over this tourney run of ours.

The expectations for Kelly are what really suprise me. I love that he took a redshirt year, and I think its great for the program. He was getting 14 minutes and putting up 6 pts and 4 rebs last season. How many minutes are we expecting him to get this year? He's competing with Karno for backup big man minutes, and Edi/Hart/KD for SF minutes (some of KDs time will be at guard backup of course). I think he could be better than all four of those guys, but I also don't think it's a given that he will be more effective than ANY of them, much less Harris and Dower.

KO's competing for a starting position. It'll be between him and Dower, likely, and KO is a much more complete player. Dower has proven he can score in bunches, but he needs to show consistency and improve on D (which he did last year, rebouding too).

JPtheBeasta
07-18-2012, 11:01 AM
It has been conventional wisdom that Dower will be the starter next year, but I'm not 100% sold on that. I think Dower gets the job if he shows the desire to rebound and defend consistantly. KO showed accumen for rebounding but was hampered by foul trouble, and we have no idea on Karno. Dower tended to disappear when he wasn't scoring, and needs to show that he wants to make an impact on other areas of the game (another example: Few mentioned that he came in with natural shot blocking instincts, but I haven't see much of that so far). If he continues to be the Sam of the past two years, I expect him to be instant offense off the bench. I think KO would have the edge as a starter over Karno, based on the limited info we have so far, but Karno has the biggest upside from the defensive perspective based on his size alone (and the recent, most likely hyperbolic, comments about him pushing Rob around like a guard).

To keep the random musings going, I think this could be our best offensive frontcourt ever, as any combo of our bigs brings a well rounded attack, and at least 3/4 of the group can stretch the court to the 3-point line. We should be a nightmare to defend this year, and our bigs should have the most room to operate down low than they ever have (or have had in a long time). The pack-it-in style defense that worked against Sacre's edition of the Zags, barring a horrible shooting night, should backfire on any team that tries to use it.

JPtheBeasta
07-18-2012, 11:05 AM
Re-post from another thread:


I had a scouting buddy tell me Karnowski is widely considered the best passing post prospect in ALL of Europe at the moment...he's beginning to receive NBA interest and they are keeping a close on his development once he steps foot in the States(for Gonzaga). His offense is still pretty raw/one-dimensional, especially for a Euro-big, but he's HUGE and receiving rave reviews for his natural size & his passing skills -- out of double teams & to his guards -- are Kevin Love or Brad Miller-esque.

He may not last past his Sophomore season, given his legit 7' bulk and his court awareness is blue chip.

His conditioning has improved over the past year and he's slimmed down, but he still needs some serious weight room work, which is non-existent for most european basketball players.

BULLDOG#1
07-18-2012, 02:43 PM
Didn't Spangler transfer out? Oklahoma?


i know he's gone ... I meant more mins than spangler got as a frosh.