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View Full Version : Are we forgetting about KO?



CanadianZagFan
05-03-2012, 03:02 AM
With Karnowski signing are we undervaluing what Kelly is going to bring to the table? It is well documented that right through to his final year in high school, Kelly played mostly on the perimeter, facing up, shooting, passing, and getting looks in transition. He has slowly developed into a a true big man, adding post-up moves, passing out of the post, guarding the post, and getting stronger and more comfortable in that area.

While I love the Karnowski signing, I do believe that Kelly will give him all he can handle is trying to be the main man in the middle. I think KO will be able to pick up where Rob left off in guarding pick n roll and hedging screens, not sure Dower or Karnowski have the lateral foot speed to do that...or the confidence to get way out there on the perimeter.

Like it has been talked about in another thread, if we can get Harris playing 5-7 minutes of effective small forward per game, life will be good for all the bigs, but if not, I feel Kelly will be hard to keep of the floor.

EDIT: I know I am Canadian and that I may be though of as biased, but I am looking at it from a coaches perspective and what I feel he brings to the table over the other options.

bartruff1
05-03-2012, 03:54 AM
Depending upon how much he has progressed during his red shirt, Kelly will play a huge role in any success the team has this year. I would not be surprised to see him play 20+ minutes, if his defense has improved. I can hardly wait to see him play....

NEC26
05-03-2012, 05:48 AM
We as fans maybe but I'm sure the coaches are not and once the season starts and Kelly gets going the excitement over the new guy will fade a bit. Its natural for the board to be excited about a new recruit. Especially when some claim he is a 5 star type recruit.

scott257
05-03-2012, 05:57 AM
Twin towers with Elias? Should be a great option against some teams.

Midwestzag
05-03-2012, 06:14 AM
Here's a thought (no inside info, just fan conjecture). Is it possible that KO has improved to the point that he was beating Mr. Spangler regularly in practice, and Spangler correctly projected that he would have to really fight for minutes and possibly lose the fight?

bullzag23
05-03-2012, 06:23 AM
My biggest hope for KO's improvement is dealing with the dumb fouls. So many times 2 years ago where he would give someone an 'and 1' opportunity for really no reason other than he got beat. Of course this wouldn't be an issue for the most part with improved footwork on D.

DCZag
05-03-2012, 06:31 AM
I think we as Zag fans are under valuing some of the guys, KO for sure (but also Dranginis and potentially Sarbaugh). There is a reason we weren't wildly searching for talent for '12. I think the staff likes what we have in place, and KO is a big part of that.

titopoet
05-03-2012, 06:40 AM
I know that he has been working on a post up game, but at the end of the day he is still a Euro 4, and a darn good one. He is best used as a euro 4. He is a good passer with a midrange game that extends out to 3. He maybe the best 4 to pair with Karno. Dower is a 5 as is Karno. Even if Kelly is in the 5 position for a stretch, I believe Few uses more motion offense and spread with him. He is very versatile, while the fans are focusing on Karno, I believe that Few has not forgotten KO. Sometimes fans are blinded by height.

Kelly plays the game like Dirk Nowitzki, and that has a value. (Please note that I said he plays in the same style as Dirk not that he as good as Dirk. A four the plays the perimeter, slashes to the basket and starts his play from about the freethrow line, classical euro 4 stuff.)

hooter73
05-03-2012, 07:05 AM
We have three power forwards and a true center. Dower and KO are Hybrid 4/5s and people want Harris to be a hybrid 3/4 but none of them have shown the defense foot speed or positioning yet. As I remember it Kelly's fouls were mostly happening as he tried to bail out his slow feet from not keeping up. I guarantee we will see an improvement in that but how much remains to be seen.

Only because we havent seen him (or them - KD, CS) play yet or recently, yes I think we are undervaluing the redshirt players.

ZagNut08
05-03-2012, 07:14 AM
I would like to see KO and Karn used like bynum/gasol for the lakers. Gasol is more of a 4 with some ability to pick and pop, but has plenty of post moves/size so when bynum goes out he can slide to the 5, or play 5 with the second unit. All in all it would be ideal to add harris at the 3, but it seems that experiment has been tried and failed...good luck coaches.

GrizZAG
05-03-2012, 07:33 AM
Really looking forward to seeing what KO can bring with the time to improve he has had. He has really good hands and I think he is going to go all out to make his place with this team and will earn it. I'm a fan big time and hope he surprises us all. His put backs stick in my mind and he should be a leader in rebounding. Great stroke, good passer that needs to capitalize on his size and strength without fouling. Sounds easy eh?

gamagin
05-03-2012, 07:46 AM
With Karnowski signing are we undervaluing what Kelly is going to bring to the table? It is well documented that right through to his final year in high school, Kelly played mostly on the perimeter, facing up, shooting, passing, and getting looks in transition. He has slowly developed into a a true big man, adding post-up moves, passing out of the post, guarding the post, and getting stronger and more comfortable in that area.

While I love the Karnowski signing, I do believe that Kelly will give him all he can handle is trying to be the main man in the middle. I think KO will be able to pick up where Rob left off in guarding pick n roll and hedging screens, not sure Dower or Karnowski have the lateral foot speed to do that...or the confidence to get way out there on the perimeter.

Like it has been talked about in another thread, if we can get Harris playing 5-7 minutes of effective small forward per game, life will be good for all the bigs, but if not, I feel Kelly will be hard to keep of the floor.

EDIT: I know I am Canadian and that I may be though of as biased, but I am looking at it from a coaches perspective and what I feel he brings to the table over the other options.

all we have to go on are rumors and hope here on the GUB.

That said, the word on KO is he has had a very productive redshirt year. My hope is he has gotten stronger and is now master of keeping his legs under him at all time (meaning on balance and squared up, whether to rebound or shoot or just get and stay in position).

That, plus the confidence of having seen and done it all, should add up to a great year for KO.

IF that turns out to be true, he could easily become a superstar on this team.

I'm excited to see him show his stuff. It's hard to imagine KP coming in with as much maturity and experience as KO as a freshman. We will see about that.

But if KP should be able to start out that mature, ready to go and confident, it could get a little more crowded than anyone is used to underneath.

Only time will tell. It will be interesting to see who among our bigs can get out and run and keep on running. that might be a tie breaker, too. Or it could be a determining factor in the amount of p.t. one might get over another.

While there are many fans of a short bench here, this team might be extended to allow for the pace and tempo of our game to remain high.

It's going to be interesting. But I see KO in a leadership role in any event.

CDC84
05-03-2012, 07:54 AM
I think people need to understand that a good portion of Kelly's redshirt year was spent trying to develop his skills to be a center. He's going to have more low post ability than we saw his first two years.

Part of the reason why he was redshirted was because Gonzaga needed someone who could step in and replace Rob Sacre in the event that GU failed to get Karnowski or some other replacement.

Although KO is not and never will be a true blue center, you can't teach someone to be a 7 footer, and the last time I checked, Dower and Harris aren't 7 footers. There are too many other power forward types in the program.

A redshirt year can work wonders. I've seen it make small forwards into point guards and tall shooting guards into power forwards. It's all a question of whether a player wants to work hard enough to make changes and improvements. To say that a player is the way he is and will never change is an excuse. If that were the case, Anthony Davis would've played shooting guard at Kentucky last season, because that's what he's been most of his playing career.

In order for KO to see significant playing time, he's going to have to play both frontcourt positions, period.

raise the zag
05-03-2012, 07:57 AM
KO says NO....we haven't forgotten about him and I assure you, he won't let us next season.

I wonder how many 7'1" players in NCAA can pull off a windmill dunk seen here:

http://youtu.be/tjwLTYRF_hk

Beer_Engineer
05-03-2012, 07:57 AM
defense defense defense.

CanadianZagFan
05-03-2012, 08:01 AM
KO says NO....we haven't forgotten about him and I assure you, he won't let us next season.

I wonder how many 7'1" players in NCAA can pull off a windmill dunk seen here:

http://youtu.be/tjwLTYRF_hk

Link does not work

webspinnre
05-03-2012, 08:06 AM
youtu.be/tjwLTYRF_hk


Formatting got messed up, fixed it for you.

JPtheBeasta
05-03-2012, 08:07 AM
KO has been, and continues to be talked about at length around here, and rightly so. We got distracted temporarily by trolls and cuisine. Also, the Karnowksi recruitment was actual news infused with some competitive intrigue, and the emotional roller coaster of a slow commit took over for a while. We can now return to our regularly scheduled programming. When does KO start playing the point?

BULLDOG#1
05-03-2012, 08:29 AM
KO has the skill set to play along Karno.

How impressive was he in the way he handled his red-shirt season? It will be great seeing how he progressed.

Two multi-skilled 7 footers, a 6'9 scoring beast, and a 6'7 ultra-athletic senior AND two outstanding perimeter defenders in GLE and Hart...

what a front court!

Oh, and Pangos and Bell in the backcourt...

dnj116
05-03-2012, 08:36 AM
I'd like to see KO dunk in a game.

That is a generalized statement, but in my opinion, sums up what his weaknesses were prior to the redshirt. He was too soft in the paint, did not go to the hoop with assertive force, settled for layups.

Lets see how he developed in his RS year. I'm hoping for a stronger KO who understands more what is needed as a post player. In sum, lets see some dunks.

bartruff1
05-03-2012, 08:45 AM
defense defense defense. Sacre was the WCC Defensive Player of the Year....whoever can defend Waldo and

Davies/Collinsworth ect is going to play....IMHO of course...

zag944
05-03-2012, 08:48 AM
To answer the topic's question, we are not forgetting about KO. There is discussion in several topics regarding how we are going to get all our big men good minutes. The consensus seems to be moving a big man into the 3 position.

Seems to me more like we are forgetting about Edi, who is a starter and who got better on both ends of the floor every game. He'd be the guy getting the most minutes trimmed in the scenario presented by many people here. And I dont know that Kelly is better than him.

75Zag
05-03-2012, 09:00 AM
It would be interesting to be a true insider and find out how the GU staff portrayed the recruitment of the Big Pole to Kelly O. IF Kelly O was promised that in exchange for redshirting he would be the GU 5 for the next couple of years, I can see where the Big Pole's recruitment would not have been good news to Kelly. On the other hand, if no promises were made to induce Kelly to redshirt, then I guess he should have known that he would be taking his chances against an incoming recruit taking away the 5 spot.

I love soap operas. As the worm turns.

CDC84
05-03-2012, 09:15 AM
I think Kelly was told that if he ever wanted to see significant playing time at Gonzaga, he would need to be able to adapt to either playing power forward OR center. This was going to be his role, take it or leave it. The redshirt year was spent to make him more versatile.

The more versatile you are, the more minutes you are going to see. If you're stuck playing one position, you better be dominant.

zaguarxj
05-03-2012, 09:22 AM
How could we forget KO and Sarbaugh after seeing them wearing those bow-ties last year? The image is permanently burned into my retinas.

The fascinating thing about KO is that he's a basketball player who happened to grow really tall, instead of a really tall guy trying to learn how to play basketball. That makes me optimistic about his chances of becoming a really good 4/5.

Mr Vulture
05-03-2012, 09:32 AM
I know we all expect PK to come in and be very good, me included. However, I would be surprised if he averaged much more than 20 minutes a game his freshman year. Typically you see a period of adjustment in frontcourt guys in regards to pace, offensive style, and overall college game. This takes nothing away from PK, it is just how things tend to work out.

My point is that I do believe that Elias will play some minutes at the wing position which will leave enough minutes for everyone. Granted there will be a difference and players will rotate depending on matchups. I am using round numbers in projection but I would anticipate the minutes distributed in roughly the following way, total minutes being 200 per game.

Elias Harris - 30 mpg
Sam Dower - 20 mpg
Kelly Olynyk - 20 mpg
Przemek Karnowski - 20 mpg
Guy Landry - 20 mpg
Kevin Pangos - 35 mpg
Gary Bell - 30 mpg
Kyle Draginis - 15 mpg
David Stockton - 10 mpg

The difference in my opinion versus others is probably the fact that I think the the bigs will be in a rotation to limit fatigue and foul trouble.

Mr Vulture
05-03-2012, 09:36 AM
I don't anticipate guys like Monnighoff and Sarbaugh getting much run at all. I do anticipate seeing Mike Hart in games but I think his playing time will be dictated by the game. I would be surprised if he played more than somewhere in the 5-10 minute range on average which would come from different guys depending on what happens in the game.

Hoopaholic
05-03-2012, 12:54 PM
it would not surprise me to see KO play alot of the 4 position, but setting the high pick and roll screens we got so accustomed to see Big Rob do for us. The added benefit now comes a dual threat...KO can slide down and post up a small guard who switched on him, pick and pop and be a legitimate three point threat (missing last year with Rob) causing the defender to hold tight on him which would then open up our newest TRUE center to flash over into single isolation.....wow very difficult to defend.....

off side help would be only answer to this new found predicament but then you have a Harris or Morninghoff standing over there ready to catch and shoot leaving our big center in weakside rebounding position and opening up the middle lane for KO to crash the boards......

I smell some offensive magic coming on

bballbeachbum
05-03-2012, 02:00 PM
it would not surprise me to see KO play alot of the 4 position, but setting the high pick and roll screens we got so accustomed to see Big Rob do for us. The added benefit now comes a dual threat...KO can slide down and post up a small guard who switched on him, pick and pop and be a legitimate three point threat (missing last year with Rob) causing the defender to hold tight on him which would then open up our newest TRUE center to flash over into single isolation.....wow very difficult to defend.....

off side help would be only answer to this new found predicament but then you have a Harris or Morninghoff standing over there ready to catch and shoot leaving our big center in weakside rebounding position and opening up the middle lane for KO to crash the boards......

I smell some offensive magic coming on

could be man, and KO is hopefully in the middle of it....can see what you're describing. using offensive pressure to help the defense play better and unhinge the other team is tried and true, and can make for some fun games to watch too. if this team rebounds the basketball, then hocus pocus

probably a ways to go to getting there with what we've seen from some of the players who will be relied upon to get the glass and paint work done, but player development is just that, and I'd have to bet the focus on team and individual rebounding technique is/has been a biggie. we'll see.

MDABE80
05-03-2012, 02:13 PM
He could be an astounding 4....with times at the 3 with his outside shooting (if it's improved). I think we need to see how his RS season went. If he got a quite bit out of it, he'll play plenty with or without Karno.
He's still is a great kid. I'd like to see him do 15-5 though. His weight and muscle will determine much.

Billfish'80
05-03-2012, 04:33 PM
I've been excited to see how much Kelly learned about being a "big" last year while he was intently watching every single one of them on the floor while taking stats. I hope he is going to find that he sees whats going to happen and where everyone is moving to before it happens, and is able to react to that because he was so tuned in to it last year from the bench. That stat keeping should help the game slow down for him on the floor, even though he had no game-time experience last year. He was not only watching all our bigs, and keeping O and D stats, but the oppositions as well. That was more valuable to him than we might think.

gamagin
05-03-2012, 04:40 PM
How could we forget KO and Sarbaugh after seeing them wearing those bow-ties last year? The image is permanently burned into my retinas.

The fascinating thing about KO is that he's a basketball player who happened to grow really tall, instead of a really tall guy trying to learn how to play basketball. That makes me optimistic about his chances of becoming a really good 4/5.

well said.

Baseline
05-03-2012, 05:47 PM
It will take Korno half a year to learn the system and get used to D1 ball, in that 6 months Kelly has the opportunity to cement his position on the team and I expect him to do just that.
Once Drano shows his ability to score and pass, the talk of Harris playing some 3 will stop.

Waldo will not have the success against GU that he had last year. Rob was helping out a lot, letting Waldo roam. Sarbough may get time guarding Delly, as his hight will help quite a bit and Delly doesn't have the blinding speed to get by him.

GU will have a good year.

OZZY
05-03-2012, 06:28 PM
As a huge KO fan I am hoping that the rumors I have heard about his RS year being a big benefit will be true. Some of us on this board have always believed that he will eventually put it all together, the only thing hampering him was the feet/body not working as quickly as his mind was.

I agree that KO will most likely start the year as the starting 5, with PK slowly taking more backup minutes as the season progresses until he might play up to half of the minutes at the 5. Having four healthy and refreshed big men coming into the last part of the season would do wonders for the team in the tournaments.

I can't wait to see both KO and PK on the floor at the same time, I somehow have a feeling that they will work very well together. Perhaps even having plays drawn up for the two to get easy baskets when the defense has to key on one of them.

KP must be excited at the prospect of having two 7' posts that have great hands.

Re Kelly's defense, I actually think that he will be better than most expect. IMHO his "softness/clumsiness" was mostly to do with his lack feet movement. I do believe that he takes seriously his responsibilities on the D end and will surprise a few GU fans by not backing down when challenged.

Re playing St.Mary's, Waldo will not have an easy time this year with Rob Jones gone. Opponents will be keying on him more.

Beer_Engineer
05-03-2012, 09:09 PM
To answer the topic's question, we are not forgetting about KO. There is discussion in several topics regarding how we are going to get all our big men good minutes. The consensus seems to be moving a big man into the 3 position.

Seems to me more like we are forgetting about Edi, who is a starter and who got better on both ends of the floor every game. He'd be the guy getting the most minutes trimmed in the scenario presented by many people here. And I dont know that Kelly is better than him.

Not only that, with Fews habit of playing small, large possibility Edi and Dranginis end up sharing more minutes at the 3 than a big.

Zag79
05-03-2012, 10:59 PM
I would like to see KO and Karn used like bynum/gasol for the lakers. Gasol is more of a 4 with some ability to pick and pop, but has plenty of post moves/size so when bynum goes out he can slide to the 5, or play 5 with the second unit. All in all it would be ideal to add harris at the 3, but it seems that experiment has been tried and failed...good luck coaches.

:agreed:

jim77
05-04-2012, 12:24 AM
Stepping onto the court against the GU Bulldogs next year is going to be a daunting task. I'm not to worried about minutes.....matchups will dictate. If KO is one thing....he's versatile. The guy is a guard in a 7 ' body. He can play numerous positions..handles the ball well..shoots well...positions himself for rebounds...has high BB IQ. His lone weakness was his body hadn't caught up with his IQ. I really think KO could end up being the X-factor.

How are other teams gonna react with E....PK and KO all in at the same time? Few's no dummy....he will expoit every which way he can. KO is going to be a handfull to account for.....and leaving him alone or up against a much smaller guy is a recipe for disaster....the other teams disaster. The lineup of KP...Bell...E...KO....PK...may in fact be the most dangerous shooting lineup in ALL of college basketball. (and adding Dower may make it even better) They are cappable of EACH shooting 40% from 3 land. Its bad enough that ANY can torch you from downtown....but if you dare go outside to far they will DOMINATE inside.....and Pangos and Bell can slash too...along with E.

Do I think Coach Few is wringing his hands about now? Yes I do...with a BIG s%$# eating grin on his face. We don't have any problems..but the other guys do....WE are stacked! Our bench is deep and talented too. We can play big ball...fastball...outside..inside....any way it takes to win....and these Zags are gonna win a bunch.

SteelZag
05-04-2012, 06:05 AM
STACKED!

Yeah....That's the ticket!:cheers:

FuManShoes
05-04-2012, 07:30 AM
I would like to see KO and Karn used like bynum/gasol for the lakers. Gasol is more of a 4 with some ability to pick and pop, but has plenty of post moves/size so when bynum goes out he can slide to the 5, or play 5 with the second unit. All in all it would be ideal to add harris at the 3, but it seems that experiment has been tried and failed...good luck coaches.

I had the same thought. This only works if Harris can start playing the three, which he needs to do anyway to make it as a pro. Let's hope he gained some better handles and defensive footwork in the offseason.