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pbriz
04-26-2012, 08:18 AM
Just thinking about next year and this occurred to me......

A lineup of Pangos, Bell, Olynyk, Harris, and Dower is completely feasible. All 3 of Olynyk, Harris, and Dower can play inside and out while Harris can defend the 3 on the other side of the ball. With those 3 on offense opposing teams would be stuck trying to defend one of those 3 on the perimeter and inside so Few could utilize a mismatch each time down the floor.

Thoughts?

ZagsObserver
04-26-2012, 08:20 AM
Just thinking about next year and this occurred to me......

A lineup of Pangos, Bell, Olynyk, Harris, and Dower is completely feasible. All 3 of Olynyk, Harris, and Dower can play inside and out while Harris can defend the 3 on the other side of the ball. With those 3 on offense opposing teams would be stuck trying to defend one of those 3 on the perimeter and inside so Few could utilize a mismatch each time down the floor.

Thoughts?

Not enough depth to have three bigs on the floor. Foul trouble would squash those plans

bigparb
04-26-2012, 08:34 AM
Not enough depth to have three bigs on the floor. Foul trouble would squash those plans
disagree on the concerns about front court depth---aside from matchups against elite teams with legit front lines-----in the WCC and 1/2 of our non-con games, if they get in a little foul trouble, we'd have no problem playing small ball with PG--pangos; SG--bell; SF--KD; PF/SF--GLE/hart; C--the big not in foul trouble or Big Karn (fingers crossed).......matter of fact I hope to see lots of that PG/SG/SF combo----

Lots of small ball being played by programs around the country......

ZAGGED OUT
04-26-2012, 08:52 AM
You know, I really dislike all the talk about Harris at a 3 when we have so many guards (with KD and GLE not being short at all for a 3), however, just this once I will SLIGHTLY entertain it.

The only way I can see it working would be Harris playing the 3 defensively and Olynyk playing the 3 Offensively. KO has a much better jump shot (from deep and mid) and, playing PG for his HS, will have better handles and knowledge of running pick and rolls. I'm still not really sold on this, but I guess I could watch it for a couple minutes to see if it works. Just a thought

roxdoc
04-26-2012, 08:54 AM
EH is going to be in trouble defending any reasonably good opponent wing.

jpwils
04-26-2012, 08:55 AM
Try it in middle of some early games to see how it goes.

Can also do in conference-especially if Karno signs and plugs into system.

Could utilize Harris or KO similar to way ISU used Royce White.

There's got to be a better way to give GLE, Drangs, and Harris opportunities to post up, or bust zones, or slash to the hoop to maximize their strengths given various matchups/capabilities/weaknesses of defenses.

Has Hoff definitely stated he is tranferring yet?? Have not seen any real confirmation of that. Hope he stays because I think Pangos, Dranginis, and Hoff would KILL it against zones next year.

Don't forget Hart at 2 or 3 either- he continued to make amazing plays on the defensive side last year and is needed against teams like SMC to muscle up against Holt and Delly.

ZAGGED OUT
04-26-2012, 08:59 AM
EH is going to be in trouble defending any reasonably good opponent wing.

He very well could be, hopefully he's gotten a little more savvy about staying outta foul trouble. I usually avoid the Harris at 3 threads but that lineup just popped into my head. I guess I'd really be more interested in seeing if KO could play 3. Talk about match up issues for opponents..

BULLDOG#1
04-26-2012, 09:01 AM
It's situational, but I think we'll see quite a bit of KO-EH-SD playing together on the front line. Might have to play zone to protect them on D.

Harris has the speed to cover the wing in a zone and KO has the length.

It is a potential foul-prone strategy, but it would kill on the offensive end.

gamagin
04-26-2012, 09:09 AM
whatever I say, I'd be guessing. At this point, I suggest the coaches would be guessing, too. That said, my guess is anything is possible. Nothing is set in cement. Everything changes.

The great news is we have an incredible bunch of Zags who are more than willing to work all summer to get better and better, just to wade in to practice with the idea of making the team better, gaining p.t. and becoming an integral part of a great, winning, team, tradition and school.

I feel fortunate to be able to watch all this unfold before our eyes, year after year. It just never gets old.

NotoriousZ
04-26-2012, 09:15 AM
Just thinking about next year and this occurred to me......

A lineup of Pangos, Bell, Olynyk, Harris, and Dower is completely feasible. All 3 of Olynyk, Harris, and Dower can play inside and out while Harris can defend the 3 on the other side of the ball. With those 3 on offense opposing teams would be stuck trying to defend one of those 3 on the perimeter and inside so Few could utilize a mismatch each time down the floor.

Thoughts?

I think we'll see that lineup from time to time, if Karno comes to town. If not, we can't have our bigs getting winded and in foul trouble.

Personally, I like a faster lineup with Edi or Draginis at the three. And Harris will be our best rebounder no matter who we have on the team, so I like him at the four spot anyway.

BobZag
04-26-2012, 09:17 AM
Not many fast breaks with that lineup. -Negative Nellie

mgadfly
04-26-2012, 09:35 AM
You know, I really dislike all the talk about Harris at a 3 when we have so many guards (with KD and GLE not being short at all for a 3), however, just this once I will SLIGHTLY entertain it.

The only way I can see it working would be Harris playing the 3 defensively and Olynyk playing the 3 Offensively. KO has a much better jump shot (from deep and mid) and, playing PG for his HS, will have better handles and knowledge of running pick and rolls. I'm still not really sold on this, but I guess I could watch it for a couple minutes to see if it works. Just a thought

Much better jump shot than Harris? No way. I'm a huge KO fan because of the way he passes and rebounds (not to mention the way he was engaged the entire season despite red shirting) but he is nowhere near the shooter EH is. Certainly he is not a "much better" shooter.

Harris: career 41% from 3 pt range.
Olynyk: career 35% from 3 pt range.

Harris: career 70% FT shooter.
Olynyk: career 61% FT shooter.

Plus I thought that Olynyk was working on his interior game, it'd seem a waste if we put him on the perimeter too much. I could see us going big for 5 minutes or so a game if Karno comes to town.

zag944
04-26-2012, 09:40 AM
I dont think Kelly is an upgrade over Edi or Draginis at that position. Even if he was, it certainley isnt enough of an upgrade to sacrifice frontcourt depth, especially the way fouls tend to pile up in WCC play.

BULLDOG#1
04-26-2012, 09:42 AM
Not many fast breaks with that lineup. -Negative Nellie

i disagree. Three bigs should clear the D glass and allow KP and GBJ to run (possibly leak-out on a long jumpshot), with uber-athletic Harris not far behind.

I remember huge Ohio State teams with only one or two speedsters getting tons of fast break points because they ruled the defensive glass.

Vanzagger
04-26-2012, 09:47 AM
Just thinking about next year and this occurred to me......

A lineup of Pangos, Bell, Olynyk, Harris, and Dower is completely feasible. All 3 of Olynyk, Harris, and Dower can play inside and out while Harris can defend the 3 on the other side of the ball. With those 3 on offense opposing teams would be stuck trying to defend one of those 3 on the perimeter and inside so Few could utilize a mismatch each time down the floor.

Thoughts?

Keep it simple. Let the big dogs eat and run. Hands up and focus on D.

ZAGGED OUT
04-26-2012, 09:48 AM
Much better jump shot than Harris? No way. I'm a huge KO fan because of the way he passes and rebounds (not to mention the way he was engaged the entire season despite red shirting) but he is nowhere near the shooter EH is. Certainly he is not a "much better" shooter.

Harris: career 41% from 3 pt range.
Olynyk: career 35% from 3 pt range.

Harris: career 70% FT shooter.
Olynyk: career 61% FT shooter.

Plus I thought that Olynyk was working on his interior game, it'd seem a waste if we put him on the perimeter too much. I could see us going big for 5 minutes or so a game if Karno comes to town.

How many mid range shots do you see harris hit? Don't get me wrong, I was very happy to see his shooting from range this year, but he doesn't take them unless they are wide open. KO's father is an NBA shooting coach so he has a pure shot, and like I said with his past experience at guard, he'll have better ability to create for himself and others out there. Again, I'm not a huge fan of these threads wanting to put a big at 3, it was just an interesting thought I had this morning. In all honesty I'd still rather see Pangos and Bell playing with Edi/Drang and all 4 bigs rotating down low.

BULLDOG#1
04-26-2012, 09:52 AM
I dont think Kelly is an upgrade over Edi or Draginis at that position. Even if he was, it certainley isnt enough of an upgrade to sacrifice frontcourt depth, especially the way fouls tend to pile up in WCC play.

Well, we've never seen Draginis in a WCC game and we haven't seen KO in a year. So this is really a moot argument. I do think KO's performance as a soph would have been an upgrade on what we saw most of the time out of EDI as a junior -- though it's hard to compare because they play the position in different ways.

Edi was good defensively, but (contrary to what most posters here think) he wasn't GREAT. He was average on offense. KO was good offensively (sometimes great) but less than average defensively. KO was way better on the glass. Both had moments of bone-headed turnovers. I guess the question is: How much has KO really improved? Or Edi (i'm sure he's working his game in the offseason, too)?

Either way, it's a nice problem to have... These look to be three solid players and good kids.

ZAGGED OUT
04-26-2012, 10:06 AM
Much better jump shot than Harris? No way. I'm a huge KO fan because of the way he passes and rebounds (not to mention the way he was engaged the entire season despite red shirting) but he is nowhere near the shooter EH is. Certainly he is not a "much better" shooter.

Harris: career 41% from 3 pt range.
Olynyk: career 35% from 3 pt range.

Harris: career 70% FT shooter.
Olynyk: career 61% FT shooter.

Plus I thought that Olynyk was working on his interior game, it'd seem a waste if we put him on the perimeter too much. I could see us going big for 5 minutes or so a game if Karno comes to town.

Oh and with only two years under his belt (much less pt his freshman year than Harris), career stats are a little unfair. KO's sophmore year? 44.4% from range and 57% from the field in 13.5 minutes a game. Sorry to burst your bubble

*Edit* I still believe Harris to be a better player overall, and definitely invaluable to the Zags, purely discussing shooting here

mgadfly
04-26-2012, 10:10 AM
Oh and with only two years under his belt, career stats are a little unfair. KO's sophmore year? 44.4% from range and 57% from the field. Sorry to burst your bubble

So two years isn't a large enough sample size but 12-27 is? The fact is that KO has made 16 three pointers for GU while Harris has made 70. You said KO is a "much better" shooter. I don't see it and neither do the stats.

I don't remember KO knocking down a bunch of midrange shots. In fact, I thought he got most of his points very near the bucket. EH is the better and more proven shooter. If we are going to be selective on what stats we use, I invoke EH's 45% freshman year to trump KO's 44% sophomore year (and Harris took nearly twice as many threes as a FR as KO did as a SO).

ZAGGED OUT
04-26-2012, 10:13 AM
cmon 12.5 minutes a game vs 30 a game. Of course Harris took more shots, thanks for pointing the obvious. Either way, I'm not here to argue, they're both great players and I'm glad they're both Zags. I guess this season we'll see with KO back, and if it so happens that I need to stick my foot in my mouth after this, then so be it

ZagsObserver
04-26-2012, 10:15 AM
Oh and with only two years under his belt (much less pt his freshman year than Harris), career stats are a little unfair. KO's sophmore year? 44.4% from range and 57% from the field in 13.5 minutes a game. Sorry to burst your bubble

*Edit* I still believe Harris to be a better player overall, and definitely invaluable to the Zags, purely discussing shooting here

Uh, no. Harris is the better shooter. No comparison

mgadfly
04-26-2012, 10:17 AM
cmon 12.5 minutes a game vs 30 a game. Of course Harris took more shots, thanks for pointing the obvious. t

I don't know what this means. I thought you brought up an issue about sample size. Harris is more proven because his #s are better and are from a larger sample.

But more to the point, I think we both agree that neither should be at SF.

ZAGGED OUT
04-26-2012, 10:34 AM
I was strictly replying to the comment about 16 made 3's vs 70. Maybe should have quoted it. Regardless, you're right that we're both on the same page. Neither are SF's.

MickMick
04-26-2012, 10:58 AM
A few predictions, some of them inspired from observed posts from other threads I have read.

The Zags will be more foul prone. The rotation of big men will grow (+1) this upcoming season because of it. The fourth big will play a bunch.

History has shown us that Olynik is more suited as a "face up" Euro style big as opposed to a low post "back to the basket" player. For that reason, I expect Dower or especially Karnowski would see the most time directly under the rim.
KO may be paired with one of those two often.

Landry Edi and Hart (coming back?) will both be seasoned, solid players that bring intangibles that opponents will have to account for. If all GU really needs is one more reliable, consistent scorer, then that player could be Kyle Dranginis. If so, problem solved. Between Pangos, Bell, and Dranginis the search for the "hot hand" just got a little easier. This is the likely means that Monninghoff can get involved as well.

Reborn
04-26-2012, 11:10 AM
There is no comparrison between Kelly and Elias. Not next year anyway. Elias is going to be a Wooden candidate, and possibly an All-American. Elias will average 30+ minutes next year. When filling in the minutes he will be right at the top with Kevin Pangos and Gary Bell. It will be awhile before we know how the minutes will be devided up between Kelly, Sam and possibly PK.

So far Mark Few has not played Elias at the 3 or small forward position, so I trust that he isn't planning to do that next year either unless Elias has made strides in developing the skills that are needed for that position. Personally, I feel that it could happen that we will see Elias Harris play some at the sf position. It is way too early to tell what is going on at the small forward postion. Because that position is not solid some kind of change will be needed, imo. We all have to wait to see how Dranginis has developed. I'm one who is excited to see Dranginis play.

The think I must ask about Dranginis is how much does he weigh? Has he put on bulk? He was too skinny last year to play the 3 in my opinion. He looked more like a two. I think he needs to be closer to 200 than 180.

The next question to ask is how much had Edi improved? If his outside shot improves he will be a darn good 3, imo. He was pretty good at times last year but really lacked that outside shot. I don't think we can judge his ability to be better next year based on his play last year. I think he's going to be much better next year. If Edi and Dranginis are ready to make the 3 position solid, Elias will definitely not be needed there.

Martin Centre Mad Man
04-26-2012, 11:25 AM
That lineup might put the other team in foul trouble, too.

I wouldn't dare use it, unless we acquire a solid fourth big man to protect our team from our own foul trouble. If we land Karnowski, it might be interesting to try it a few times just to see what happens. It might be interesting to see teams trying to decide between guarding K.O. or guarding Harris with a 6'5" wing.

ZagaZags
04-26-2012, 01:13 PM
You know, I really dislike all the talk about Harris at a 3 when we have so many guards (with KD and GLE not being short at all for a 3), however, just this once I will SLIGHTLY entertain it.

The only way I can see it working would be Harris playing the 3 defensively and Olynyk playing the 3 Offensively. KO has a much better jump shot (from deep and mid) and, playing PG for his HS, will have better handles and knowledge of running pick and rolls. I'm still not really sold on this, but I guess I could watch it for a couple minutes to see if it works. Just a thought

I only sugested Harrris playing the 3 for a few minutes to allow the other bigs a few more minutes.

bullzag23
04-26-2012, 01:21 PM
I only sugested Harrris playing the 3 for a few minutes to allow the other bigs a few more minutes.

If Karnowski comes to GU and turns out to be too valuable to keep off the floor I don't see why we wouldn't chance it with E at the 3 in spurts. He's more of an offensive threat than GLE and KD will be only a frosh. It's not like we'll have all that many teams on the schedule(especially in WCC play) that can exploit E's perimeter defense anyway.

zagfan1970
04-26-2012, 01:36 PM
eh is going to be in trouble defending any reasonably good opponent wing.

not if he has 2 7-footers guarding the rim

GUZag08
04-26-2012, 01:54 PM
Not many fast breaks with that lineup. -Negative Nellie

I think E can run the fast break like a 3. The half court game is where his shortcomings as a SF really show

bullzag23
04-26-2012, 01:56 PM
I think E can run the fast break like a 3. The half court game is where his shortcomings as a SF really show

Agreed. He's had fast break plays before where he's run from end to end by himself. Not saying it will happen all the time but he's got the ability.

BULLDOG#1
04-26-2012, 02:33 PM
I know the Harris playing the three threads are getting tired, but I can't help myself...

Don't you think E has a vested interest in playing the 3? If he is going to play in the NBA, he'll need that skill set. He did show great improvements guarding the wing (and playing the perimeter on offense) throughout the year. I would be shocked if he wasn't spending the entire summer working on his lateral quickness, handle, and outside shot. Everyone knows he kills it on the block, but with the potential makeup of the team (i.e. adding the polish kid) changing, it does present a great opportunity for Harris to play the wing more.

Personally, I think he's nearly ready right now.

MDABE80
04-26-2012, 02:39 PM
He'll do the 4 and the 3 depending on circumstances. I do hope he's learning to move his feet. He can defend a 3 but he really needs some footwork since defense is played with feet.
He can run...I think he can be a wing on a fast break. Would I trust him to lead one? eh...less so. He's an AA this year if comes back as ferocious as when the season ended............wow was he amazing!

bballbeachbum
04-26-2012, 06:58 PM
disagree on the concerns about front court depth---aside from matchups against elite teams with legit front lines-----in the WCC and 1/2 of our non-con games, if they get in a little foul trouble, we'd have no problem playing small ball with PG--pangos; SG--bell; SF--KD; PF/SF--GLE/hart; C--the big not in foul trouble or Big Karn (fingers crossed).......matter of fact I hope to see lots of that PG/SG/SF combo----

Lots of small ball being played by programs around the country......

agree. limited quality bigs out there generally, yes? need to be able to matchup either way anyway, big or small, and next year's team could be balanced nicely like that, especially with Big K...we'll see.

On the discussion on E, he can take different matchups to different parts of the floor and exploit them, and his perimeter D is improved to me (must keep improving) as he continues to learn to play with better leverage and a lower center of gravity

MickMick
04-27-2012, 06:02 AM
Agreed. He's had fast break plays before where he's run from end to end by himself. Not saying it will happen all the time but he's got the ability.

If we are talking fast break points, the drop off from Harris to Edi at wing is marginal at best. In my mind, there is no drop off at all with respect to transition offense. They both can occasionally make questionable decisions as ball handlers but both can finish very well in transition.

I think the two are a wash at wing. Edi the better defender, but Harris has the size and outside shot on offense.

I want a tough guy inside. If a player not named Harris provides that perhaps some experimentation can be done.

Harris is incredibly good under the rim. Seems a waste to have him settle for set shots at a higher clip when the roster is loaded with players that can shoot set shots. Move Harris outside and GU will see a dip in "garbage" points regardless of who is playing the four position in his stead.

Harris is the best "four" in the WCC. Excluding perimeter shooting, Harris is much less suited for wing than Edi. In other words, Harris may not be the best three position on GU...let alone the WCC.