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View Full Version : Why doesn't Hart Shoot?



GrizZAG
04-04-2012, 07:14 AM
Would like to hear why you think Mike Hart does not shoot the ball more.

From what I have read, he shoots and does so very well in practice.
Is he being told that is not his role and is just taking marching orders?
I really like Hart and can see him as a force if he had the "O"
What say Zaggers?

gu03alum
04-04-2012, 07:35 AM
Would like to hear why you think Mike Hart does not shoot the ball more.

From what I have read, he shoots and does so very well in practice.
Is he being told that is not his role and is just taking marching orders?
I really like Hart and can see him as a force if he had the "O"
What say Zaggers?

Hasn't this already been discussed a lot on here?

:horse:

cjm720
04-04-2012, 08:16 AM
He's timid IMO, because similar to Meech he's a good practice shooter but not so much in games. It's a confidence thing. That fadeaway versus OSU was pretty sweet though. Could you imagine how could we could be if he shot 40% from deep?!

zag buddy
04-04-2012, 09:03 AM
From what I have read the coaches have incouraged him to soot more but he stated that he saw his role more in doing everything else well and leave the shooting to others. In what I have seen of him he is an adequate shooter and if he had Pangos mentallity and was not afraid to go 1 for 8 I believe he would develope into a very good shooter, similar to what Pendegraph did.

gamagin
04-04-2012, 10:01 AM
Hasn't this already been discussed a lot on here?

:horse:

Y.E.S.

off-season is an excellent time to learn about the "search" function above. An amazing idea whose time has come. follow the yellow brick road . . .

GrizZAG
04-04-2012, 12:47 PM
Used the search. There are a zillion "Mike Hart" refrences as you can imagine, but I thought narrowing the discussion to one focus was not out of line, but thanks anyway.
I am guessing I may not be the only one asking the question since there has been so much commentary on how good of a shooter he is in practice. When I get to 8-10,000 posts I will too be smarter.. :)

gu03alum
04-04-2012, 01:01 PM
Used the search. There are a zillion "Mike Hart" refrences as you can imagine, but I thought narrowing the discussion to one focus was not out of line, but thanks anyway.
I am guessing I may not be the only one asking the question since there has been so much commentary on how good of a shooter he is in practice. When I get to 8-10,000 posts I will too be smarter.. :)

You could always start a few more threads if you want to get that many posts. I suggest a thread about Stockton's role on the team. Or you could start a thread about whether Elias will be going pro. Or you could start a thread about why the Huskies won't play GU anymore. :)

GrizZAG
04-04-2012, 01:08 PM
You could always start a few more threads if you want to get that many posts. I suggest a thread about Stockton's role on the team. Or you could start a thread about whether Elias will be going pro. Or you could start a thread about why the Huskies won't play GU anymore. :)

I dig it. I just see a potential there with his other skills that have such possibilities. He is a real gamer and I appreciate the intensity he brings every moment on the floor. Add offense and you have Ammo IMO...

Should I run my questions by a special committee first? I have read this board nearly every day pre-dating arrival of Hart by a long shot, so it isn't like I dropped in out of nowhere.

IrishZagFan
04-04-2012, 01:18 PM
Should I run my questions by a special committee first? I have read this board nearly every day pre-dating arrival of Hart by a long shot, so it isn't like I dropped in out of nowhere.

Stop by the FOO, drop off your questions, and they will kick them around, take minutes, and waste hours, and never get back to you.....Off season is perfect time for Fooing around. ;)

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/1002/committee-biggest-work-waste-of-time-demotivational-poster-1265654630.jpg

gu03alum
04-04-2012, 01:28 PM
I dig it. I just see a potential there with his other skills that have such possibilities. He is a real gamer and I appreciate the intensity he brings every moment on the floor. Add offense and you have Ammo IMO...

Should I run my questions by a special committee first? I have read this board nearly every day pre-dating arrival of Hart by a long shot, so it isn't like I dropped in out of nowhere.

No, not necessary, I came on too strong. In my attempt at humor I came off sounding like a dbag. It seemed like this was a topic of discussion after almost every game this year, but it may be my imagination.

I like Hart's hustle and intensity. I would be thrilled if he developed into an offensive threat.

IrishZagFan
04-04-2012, 02:04 PM
No, not necessary, I came on too strong. In my attempt at humor I came off sounding like a dbag. It seemed like this was a topic of discussion after almost every game this year, but it may be my imagination.

I like Hart's hustle and intensity. I would be thrilled if he developed into an offensive threat.

And to add grizzag, Irish was just joking too. No harm meant. Written words come across with different meanings when you can't see the intent that they were meant to convey.......

gu03 is a good guy, I can attest to it. even if he comes off like a dbag....

http://www.campbound.com/ProductImages/fungames/DirtBag.jpg

BobZag
04-04-2012, 02:20 PM
That's what I think I see.

GrizZAG
04-04-2012, 04:26 PM
Now I feel better, sorry for the blowup. I have admired the class on this board all along (with some expected weird stuff of course as in all boards) and do not want to be a fly in the ointment at all, but do want to be a participant in our mutual excitement and rooting for the best darn small school BB program in the country.
I know many of the folks here really know their basketball it is clear, and those of us that are just fans and supporters respect and value those commentaries especially.
And no Bob, do not shoot Hart~~

Let's get on with it...good stuff
It's all good...all good:cheers:

Baldwinzag
04-04-2012, 04:35 PM
Huh?

Not to be "that guy", yet Hart does/did indeed, 'shoot it'.

He started much of the season, attempted shots, yet missed more than he made them. He took 27 three's and made 5 of them(15%). He took 54 shots and made 20 of them(38%).

Not a slight, just an observation.

Love me some Mike Hart, but he shouldn't be shooting(unless we have a lead) when players such Gary Bell, Kevin Pangos, Elias Harris, Kelly Olynyk, Sam Dower, et al could be attempting the same shot. Why take the offensive attempts away from them?

Keep defenses honest, sure, but his misses weren't that close much of the time.

Hart is an awesome role player, one of the best around, yet we should work a few more options in the offense before Hart starts launching shots.

GrizZAG
04-04-2012, 04:54 PM
Huh?

Not to be "that guy", yet Hart does/did indeed, 'shoot it'.

He started much of the season, attempted shots, yet missed more than he made them. He took 27 three's and made 5 of them(15%). He took 54 shots and made 20 of them(38%).

Not a slight, just an observation.

Love me some Mike Hart, but he shouldn't be shooting(unless we have a lead) when players such Gary Bell, Kevin Pangos, Elias Harris, Kelly Olynyk, Sam Dower, et al could be attempting the same shot. Why take the offensive attempts away from them?

Keep defenses honest, sure, but his misses weren't that close much of the time.

Hart is an awesome role player, one of the best around, yet we should work a few more options in the offense before Hart starts launching shots.

Well there it is, the answer I was looking for. It makes sense to me completely now. I didn't know the numbers and it sure looks like he is doing exactly what he should be then. Still would be nice if he had the complete game though eh Baldwin? I guess that could be said for many of them on the team too. No exceptions, room to improve on all fronts.

gamagin
04-04-2012, 05:24 PM
http://guboards.spokesmanreview.com/search.php?searchid=329866

ZAGGED OUT
04-06-2012, 12:00 PM
did I see someone say if he learned to shoot he'd become Ammo?? Really?

I mean , if I learned to score 35 a game and hit ridiculous fadeaways all day then I would be the next Ammo lol.

Unfortunately for Hart, he doesn't shoot THAT much because his skill stats don't warrant it. Few has always been a coach who is not afraid to sit someone for decision making, shooting a high volume at 15% from deep would probably get that reaction from Few. I like Hart as what he is, a hustle 2-4 minutes at a time guy.

UberZagFan
04-06-2012, 12:23 PM
Baldwin hit it on the head. Hart doesn't shoot more because he doesn't shoot very well for as many as he already takes. Leave the shots for the kids who can hit them.

And he's not all of sudden going to become a good shooter in his fifth year in the program...

Zagcity
04-06-2012, 12:38 PM
And he's not all of sudden going to become a good shooter in his fifth year in the program...

I wish it were different but you are probably right

willandi
04-06-2012, 09:06 PM
How many of those three attempts were in the flow, and how many because the shot clock was running out?

Birddog
04-07-2012, 04:26 AM
How many of those three attempts were in the flow, and how many because the shot clock was running out?

That was my thought as well. It seems like Hart was the guy that had to jack up a shot as time was expiring on several occasions. It wasn't the ideal situation.

ZagsObserver
04-07-2012, 08:38 AM
He is not a shooter. Simple as that. Coaches try to encourage the players, and the comments to the media reflect that. Statements were made that meech could shoot in practice, and so many others for that matter. Empirical observation would suggest otherwise

gamagin
04-07-2012, 09:32 AM
That was my thought as well. It seems like Hart was the guy that had to jack up a shot as time was expiring on several occasions. It wasn't the ideal situation.

I encourage everyone really interested in this topic go back and LOOK at the numerous threads re this topic.

Briefly, Few, RayG, Donny and Tommy have all said, during this past season, when asked by the likes of Heister (on TV), & Tom Hudson & Matt Santangelo (on their radio pre and post game shows) that MH can shoot.

The coaches have added they have encouraged him to shoot, too. Some of us have watched him during the summer and noted he's a good shooter.

All of these sources just don't cut it with a number of posters, who have decided, with a few numbers and a keen (albeit blind) eye that MH can't, ergo should not, shoot.

MH told Heister on the Mark Few show that he believed his role was to do all the other things he does and only shoot as a last resort. This was during the time he was a starter. His goal is, was and remains, he explained, to get all the p.t. he can. So that was his logic for why he doesn't shoot.

The only place I've seen it suggested he doesn't shoot because he can't shoot is right here on this seedbed of misinformation, this birthplace of nearly all Zag urban legends: the GUB.

My own assessment is that MH, by failing to decide to shoot, and preparing, squaring up and shooting (vs. his forced shots, usually under duress and/or to beat the clock) he is missing out on p.t. In other words, if he doesn't decide to shoot, his p.t. will plateau next year, and maybe that's o.k. with him. I don't know.

By his actions, and his secure place as a very effective role player, disrupter and rebounder -- as well as team leader -- I speculate that he may be satisfied with his own game. So far. We'll see.

But, imo, should he become dissatisfied, & want more p.t., he could decide to listen to his coaches, please his fans & silence his critics, and shoot. It's entirely up to him.

He advanced all the way from walk on and scout squad fodder to a starting position, then seemed to settle in to his place as a coveted & admired and even heroic role player away from ball by the end of the season.

I don't think it would be a great stretch for him to extend that role to include shooting.

If it will get him more p.t. I also think that will be the only way he gets more p.t. and he's smart enough to realize that. I look for him to shoot enough to stay in the game longer. And, from my seat, it is time.

U Zig, I Zag
04-07-2012, 09:58 AM
I think he defers more than Few and Co would like. It's apparent that he likes the hustle aspect, chasing down boards, etc. During home games he gets massive applause when he keeps the ball alive on the offensive end with a dive out of bounds or tipping it 3 times until someone grabs it. He is the first on the floor during a loose ball. These are his skills, not necessarily scoring.

He has proven to be able to score against unknown entities (practice against your teammates is different than against a stranger in a real game, obviously). He finishes pretty good at the rim, shot is consistent. He uses the backboard to block the defender when he is down low. On a break he will Bouldin it and lay it in, but certainly he could throw it down (KC needs to yell 'Release the hounds!' if he ever gets a solo fast break).

He is not bold on offense, he NEVER breaks a guy down. He has survived this long, on a team with 'ballers' and attitude and game faces. He will be (if he wasn't already) be a team leader next year.

The days of everyone jumping up and down because the walk-on scored need to be and should be over, RE: Hart. I think the uptick in expectations will bring on a stronger Mike next year. I am hoping for it.


* I want to add that other than not as flashy with the finish I don't see a major difference in Hart and Edi. Edi wasn't as polished on offense as I was expecting, he is more of an athlete than a breakdown baller. Hart, while not as strong at the rim or as bold brings it in different areas. They bring parallel games to the team. I think Few trusts Hart a bit more, only if based on familiarity.

If you want to play (ahem, Kyle) I think you need to be 6'3" to 6'7" be able to play the 3. Be able to take break a guy down, be able to play head's up and pass and be serviceable on D. Other than really tight defensive situations I bet we see as much or more of Kyle next year than Hart. Maybe even 40/30/30% with Kyle leading in minutes at the 3.

MDABE80
04-07-2012, 10:59 AM
"* I want to add that other than not as flashy with the finish I don't see a major difference in Hart and Edi. Edi wasn't as polished on offense as I was expecting, he is more of an athlete than a breakdown baller. Hart, while not as strong at the rim or as bold brings it in different areas. They bring parallel games to the team. I think Few trusts Hart a bit more, only if based on familiarity. " U Zig

Nicely put. Hart is much much more familiar with the offense. I'd go to Hart 9/10 times if I was in a pinch.

2wiceright
04-07-2012, 04:50 PM
I encourage everyone really interested in this topic go back and LOOK at the numerous threads re this topic.

Briefly, Few, RayG, Donny and Tommy have all said, during this past season, when asked by the likes of Heister (on TV), & Tom Hudson & Matt Santangelo (on their radio pre and post game shows) that MH can shoot.

The coaches have added they have encouraged him to shoot, too. Some of us have watched him during the summer and noted he's a good shooter.

All of these sources just don't cut it with a number of posters, who have decided, with a few numbers and a keen (albeit blind) eye that MH can't, ergo should not, shoot.

MH told Heister on the Mark Few show that he believed his role was to do all the other things he does and only shoot as a last resort. This was during the time he was a starter. His goal is, was and remains, he explained, to get all the p.t. he can. So that was his logic for why he doesn't shoot.

The only place I've seen it suggested he doesn't shoot because he can't shoot is right here on this seedbed of misinformation, this birthplace of nearly all Zag urban legends: the GUB.

My own assessment is that MH, by failing to decide to shoot, and preparing, squaring up and shooting (vs. his forced shots, usually under duress and/or to beat the clock) he is missing out on p.t. In other words, if he doesn't decide to shoot, his p.t. will plateau next year, and maybe that's o.k. with him. I don't know.

By his actions, and his secure place as a very effective role player, disrupter and rebounder -- as well as team leader -- I speculate that he may be satisfied with his own game. So far. We'll see.

But, imo, should he become dissatisfied, & want more p.t., he could decide to listen to his coaches, please his fans & silence his critics, and shoot. It's entirely up to him.

He advanced all the way from walk on and scout squad fodder to a starting position, then seemed to settle in to his place as a coveted & admired and even heroic role player away from ball by the end of the season.

I don't think it would be a great stretch for him to extend that role to include shooting.

If it will get him more p.t. I also think that will be the only way he gets more p.t. and he's smart enough to realize that. I look for him to shoot enough to stay in the game longer. And, from my seat, it is time.

With some players it's a confidence issue (IMO). Sure, there's a lot of guys (like Hart and Meech) who are decent shooters in practice. You can give them all the playing time in the world, but under the bright lights they get performance anxiety. I played with a few guys like that in my day. They can hit the three all day in practice, but come game time they want nothing to do with shooting (even though they might not come out and say as much).

And even his dismal shooting percentage is bolstered by most of his points coming from layins and tip- ins.... I like Hart and think he's great off the bench and should get some quality minutes when needed, but as someone else just alluded to don't expect him to suddenly change his way in his last year here.

maynard g krebs
04-07-2012, 06:50 PM
With some players it's a confidence issue (IMO). Sure, there's a lot of guys (like Hart and Meech) who are decent shooters in practice. You can give them all the playing time in the world, but under the bright lights they get performance anxiety. I played with a few guys like that in my day. They can hit the three all day in practice, but come game time they want nothing to do with shooting (even though they might not come out and say as much).

And even his dismal shooting percentage is bolstered by most of his points coming from layins and tip- ins.... I like Hart and think he's great off the bench and should get some quality minutes when needed, but as someone else just alluded to don't expect him to suddenly change his way in his last year here.

Bingo.