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View Full Version : Honest Question For Posters- Re. Mike Hart



theothegreat21
03-06-2012, 09:19 AM
I have seen it mentioned by a handful of posters on this site that people wish Mike Hart would shoot more or get more playing time. I guess I am wondering what the basis is for this belief. I'm no rocket scientist, but why on earth do people on this site continue to want to make Mike something he isn't?

Mike is shooting 12.5% from behind the three-point line this season and barely over 40% from the field. This is pretty staggering when you realize most of his attempts are from within five feet. Have none of us learned that just because someone lights it up during the summer (hello Ira Brown and Demetri Goodson) that in no way translates to the actual games.

Instead of throwing unrealistic expectations on this kid, and not even noticing the growth that Guy Landry-Edi has made in such a short time, can we just accept that Mike is a great hustle player who is best-served playing 5-10 minutes a game with great energy?

BobZag
03-06-2012, 09:25 AM
He is effective in short spurts, to shake up things a bit and provide energy. To me, that should be his role. Very situational. In smallish doses he helps, but 4 on 5 on offense is something I'm weary of after Meech.

Gonswagga
03-06-2012, 09:26 AM
I think the big gripe that in those 5-10 minutes he has open looks from 10-20 feet and still would rather dribble out and get the ball out of his hands. We all know Hart isn't the number one offensive option but I think most people would rather like to see a shot with maybe a put back rather than forcing our guards to make something out of a 8 second shot clock.

Oregonzagnut
03-06-2012, 09:29 AM
Because if defenses are going to leave him open and challenge him to shoot, then he should shoot. This is basketball. Put the ball in the bucket. Him not being any sort of threat, even in the paint, is an issue that puts more pressure on our offense and limits the entire O.

It is a worthwhile tradeoff as it is now, but if he can keep the same prowess and intensity on D, but make just a couple jump shots, he will bring the D out to him more and free up our bigs.

theothegreat21
03-06-2012, 09:30 AM
I think the big gripe that in those 5-10 minutes he has open looks from 10-20 feet and still would rather dribble out and get the ball out of his hands. We all know Hart isn't the number one offensive option but I think most people would rather like to see a shot with maybe a put back rather than forcing our guards to make something out of a 8 second shot clock.

The guy is 4/22 from behind the three-point line in his career. Why do we want him to shoot? This is the reason to play him 5-10 minutes per game and to be sure that when he is on the court, so to are Elias and one of GBJ and Pangos.

theothegreat21
03-06-2012, 09:31 AM
Because if defenses are going to leave him open and challenge him to shoot, then he should shoot. This is basketball. Put the ball in the bucket. Him not being any sort of threat, even in the paint, is an issue that puts more pressure on our offense and limits the entire O.

It is a worthwhile tradeoff as it is now, but if he can keep the same prowess and intensity on D, but make just a couple jump shots, he will bring the D out to him more and free up our bigs.

So then why are people campaigning for him to play more? He isn't a scorer...the stats show it clearly.

aflac4life
03-06-2012, 09:39 AM
When he is wide open he has to shoot it, Sacre and EH should be crashing the boards, that will keep the other team 1/2 way honest. Who cares if he misses, we missed 10 - 3 footers last night, maybe we should stop shooting those.

Final wish for the season, let EH do the opening tip; Waldo wins the tip, REALLY? He needs a Saturn Rocket strapped to him to get off the ground.

Oregonzagnut
03-06-2012, 09:40 AM
So then why are people campaigning for him to play more? He isn't a scorer...the stats show it clearly.

I can't speak for others, but for me I am not campaigning for him to get more minutes unless the other team is scoring at will. Otherwise, I want him to play his role in the minutes he gets but if he is going to be on the court for offensive sets, he should score if he can. Like I said. This is college basketball and we need all around players more than we need specialized Rodmans.

Dennis Rodman had his role but he also had Jordan and Pippen that made up for it. I don't think our offense can afford to have only 4 men as a scoring threat. If we had a guy who averaged 20-25 points and he could score at will, then Hart is more justified in his role. But we don't have a go to guy like Rodman had Jordan. So everyone has to score when they have the chance.

I would also add that I want to see our other offensive guys hustle more like Hart does. Why not? 2 sides of the ball, 2 different games and 2 different mindsets.

Gonswagga
03-06-2012, 09:51 AM
I'm not advocating for a Mike Hart green light at all. In fact if Hart remains getting more minutes than a defensive substitution in the waning moments of a game next year I would be really puzzled. But a great deal of offense can come from second looks off of attempts. Not just put backs either. Imagine how liberating a quick pass out to Pangos or GB2 for a clean look at three would have been just for the fact they didn't have room to breathe all game.

rijman
03-06-2012, 09:54 AM
So then why are people campaigning for him to play more? He isn't a scorer...the stats show it clearly.
You make a good argument, but only 22 attempts in spot play is an insufficient number to derive any meaningful analysis. We don't know what Hart would do if he played more and shot more.

theothegreat21
03-06-2012, 09:55 AM
You make a good argument, but only 22 attempts in spot play is an insufficient number to derive any meaningful analysis. We don't know what Hart would do if he played more and shot more.

Isn't the 4/22 pretty darn telling...it isn't like he is a rhythm player.

ZagsObserver
03-06-2012, 10:01 AM
Theo - carter is shooting 10.5 percent behind the arc this year. Is 3 point percentage the primary metric you look at to determine a player's value?

theothegreat21
03-06-2012, 10:03 AM
Theo - carter is shooting 10.5 percent behind the arc this year. Is 3 point percentage the primary metric you look at to determine a player's value?

Not at all...I didn't even mention Carter at all in this post. My question merely is centered around the belief that if Mike Hart is to play more, as an entire thread is currently calling for, he would need to be an offensive threat. According to every statistic, he isn't.

gamagin
03-06-2012, 10:03 AM
I have seen it mentioned by a handful of posters on this site that people wish Mike Hart would shoot more or get more playing time. I guess I am wondering what the basis is for this belief. I'm no rocket scientist, but why on earth do people on this site continue to want to make Mike something he isn't?

Mike is shooting 12.5% from behind the three-point line this season and barely over 40% from the field. This is pretty staggering when you realize most of his attempts are from within five feet. Have none of us learned that just because someone lights it up during the summer (hello Ira Brown and Demetri Goodson) that in no way translates to the actual games.

Instead of throwing unrealistic expectations on this kid, and not even noticing the growth that Guy Landry-Edi has made in such a short time, can we just accept that Mike is a great hustle player who is best-served playing 5-10 minutes a game with great energy?

as one of those who wants to see Hart shoot more, I think your desire to start Yet another thread, without acknowledging the reasons stated over and over, seems to omit what the keys are to why Hart should shoot.

Witneses, including me, have watched him shoot. He's a good shooter. So, (1) witnesses have seen him shoot against team mates very effectively. (2) Few and RayG have both said, when asked, and volunteered, that MH is a good shooter. Both say they want him to shoot. (3) it is clear EVERY opponent leaves him open to shoot. (4) so, Shoot.

Whether it is "shoot more" or shifting the emphasis to GLE, or whatever YOU think this is threatening, the fact is he doesn't shoot, hardly ever. And the word and the witnesses, even his teammates, say he's a shooter when he wants to be.

Whether GLE makes his shots or not is immaterial to the fact that we have a guy who gets good p.t. and makes good use of those minutes. And, by many accounts, Hondo and I watching him as well, it's pretty clear he can contribute by shooting IF he will shoot.

I'll take a "handful of posters," too, over a guy with a stat sheet showing a guy who seldom shoots, ergo didn't do that well when he did shoot, ergo proof of whatever you made up that follows.

fwiw.

GoGU
03-06-2012, 10:04 AM
I don't understand why people are so upset about him taking minutes. I don't think you can say that Hart gets too many minutes just because he can't score as much as Edi. Hart is not in there to score. He's in there to grab rebounds, steals, and provide that defensive hustle that we lack at certain times, as well as give Guy some rest. If he scores every once in a while, that's icing on the cake. Forcing the jump ball at the end of regulation last night showed me exactly what we can count on from Hart during every game.

Hart is the definition of a "role player," though I hate the negative connotation of that term. We will put him in when we need him. We look to Guy when we need athleticism and offensive energy. That is why he is the starter. This is how I view the question of playing time: Play the guys whose strengths you need at that particular moment in the game. While minutes can be part of a game plan, you shouldn't get wrapped up in the "minutes played" stat as a measure of your success in the game.

caduceus
03-06-2012, 10:08 AM
Isn't the 4/22 pretty darn telling...it isn't like he is a rhythm player.

No. A single player could have that number of shots in a single game, much less a season. A good number of Hart's shots have been end-of-shot-clock Hail Mary's and putbacks. Statistically, it's not enough to accurately glean his offensive capability. He knows that he's not the first or second option to score, and he plays accordingly.

I never understand why so many people think basketball is all about scoring baskets. Defensive pressure, blocked shots, rebounds, steals, tipped balls, and creating turnovers ALL contribute significantly to the final score. Their impact is just harder to directly measure.

theothegreat21
03-06-2012, 10:12 AM
as one of those who wants to see Hart shoot more, I think your desire to start Yet another thread, without acknowledging the reasons stated over and over, seems to omit what the keys are to why Hart should shoot.

Witneses, including me, have watched him shoot. He's a good shooter. So, (1) witnesses have seen him shoot against team mates very effectively. (2) Few and RayG have both said, when asked, and volunteered, that MH is a good shooter. Both say they want him to shoot. (3) it is clear EVERY opponent leaves him open to shoot. (4) so, Shoot.

Whether it is "shoot more" or shifting the emphasis to GLE, or whatever YOU think this is threatening, the fact is he doesn't shoot, hardly ever. And the word and the witnesses, even his teammates, say he's a shooter when he wants to be.

Whether GLE makes his shots or not is immaterial to the fact that we have a guy who gets good p.t. and makes good use of those minutes. And, by many accounts, Hondo and I watching him as well, it's pretty clear he can contribute by shooting IF he will shoot.

I'll take a "handful of posters," too, over a guy with a stat sheet showing a guy who seldom shoots, ergo didn't do that well when he did shoot, ergo proof of whatever you made up that follows.

fwiw.

No offense, as I clearly have hit a sticking point for you, but I will take my trusty stat sheet over your eye test in terms of whether or not he can shoot. In terms of Few and Ray G...what were they supposed to say when asked?

If he is a good shooter, then why doesn't he shoot when wide open? It's a simple question that you have chosen not to answer, but instead decided to get snarky with me because I do a crazy thing like looking at stats.

theothegreat21
03-06-2012, 10:14 AM
I don't understand why people are so upset about him taking minutes. I don't think you can say that Hart gets too many minutes just because he can't score as much as Edi. Hart is not in there to score. He's in there to grab rebounds, steals, and provide that defensive hustle that we lack at certain times, as well as give Guy some rest. If he scores every once in a while, that's icing on the cake. Forcing the jump ball at the end of regulation last night showed me exactly what we can count on from Hart during every game.

Hart is the definition of a "role player," though I hate the negative connotation of that term. We will put him in when we need him. We look to Guy when we need athleticism and offensive energy. That is why he is the starter. This is how I view the question of playing time: Play the guys whose strengths you need at that particular moment in the game. While minutes can be part of a game plan, you shouldn't get wrapped up in the "minutes played" stat as a measure of your success in the game.

I agree with what you are saying...i merely started this thread to ask a question about what many people have been clamoring for, which is for Mike to shoot more.

One other thing...do people realize that in order to trap, there are two people involved? How about a little credit to the other guy, who I believe was Kevin Pangos.

theothegreat21
03-06-2012, 10:17 AM
No. A single player could have that number of shots in a single game, much less a season. A good number of Hart's shots have been end-of-shot-clock Hail Mary's and putbacks. Statistically, it's not enough to accurately glean his offensive capability. He knows that he's not the first or second option to score, and he plays accordingly.

I never understand why so many people think basketball is all about scoring baskets. Defensive pressure, blocked shots, rebounds, steals, tipped balls, and creating turnovers ALL contribute significantly to the final score. Their impact is just harder to directly measure.

I'm pretty sure the goal is to outscore the opponent, which in turn means you need to make baskets...right?

gamagin
03-06-2012, 10:36 AM
No offense, as I clearly have hit a sticking point for you, but I will take my trusty stat sheet over your eye test in terms of whether or not he can shoot. In terms of Few and Ray G...what were they supposed to say when asked?

If he is a good shooter, then why doesn't he shoot when wide open? It's a simple question that you have chosen not to answer, but instead decided to get snarky with me because I do a crazy thing like looking at stats.

to you. I have written many times: He doesn't shoot because he believes he gets his p.t. by not shooting, but doing what he does when he gets in. i.e. harassed opponents, steal rebounds after they are caught by others, at both ends of the court, push and rebound and sometimes put back, play heads up, double team the unsuspecting, cover when another zag is out of place. Is that enough ? Or am i still evading your question ?

Your stat sheet and a $2 (inflation, sorry) will get you a Starbucks Coffee of the Day. You are hanging on to a silly theory with apparently NO eye test, disregard for what coaches not given to lying have said, the testimony of admittedly shaky witnesses, and teammates.

Being the only guy on the floor that knows the shot clock is going down and nobody wants to shoot, taking reluctant shots because of your own hang up (not my role, he thinks), stealing a rebound and throwing the ball the length of the court in hopes of a hail mary etc etc., is hardly reflected on a stat sheet. Except poorly. Hart shoots when he absolutely has to. If he went in with the shooting mindset, it would be different. that's what those who watch him all the time say.

Put the sheet away and watch a game. Then ask yourself why on earth you would ever guard this guy. that's what our opponents see. You seem to think the most important thing is what happened when he reluctantly did shoot. This is all on MH. He has to decide to shoot. No one is holding him back, certainly not a stat sheet.

Martin Centre Mad Man
03-06-2012, 10:41 AM
I want him to shoot when he's open, if for no other reason, so that teams will guard him. He needs to make the fifth defender guard him, so that other guys have better looks. If the scouting report says that he never shoots, nobody will bother to guard him. He doesn't need to bomb from downtown every time he gets the ball, but when it comes to him off of the fourth pass in a possession and he's wide open from fifteen feet with ten seconds on the clock, he ought to take that shot.

caduceus
03-06-2012, 10:43 AM
I'm pretty sure the goal is to outscore the opponent, which in turn means you need to make baskets...right?

That's only half the equation. You need to stop the other team from making them, which is no less important.

MDABE80
03-06-2012, 10:44 AM
I'm pretty sure the goal is to outscore the opponent, which in turn means you need to make baskets...right?

Lots of ways to outscore an opponent. I cannot know how many points Mike has prevented by his defense and his defensive antics outside of man on man type defense. I'd guess it's 10 or more when he had more pT. Just a guess though. Also I cannot know how much being disruptive is worth.

True, we must outscore to get a victory. Prevention of points is something not to be minimized though.
My point earlier and in multiple threads is that he can and does shoot incredibly well....just not in games. Real games. It's a puzzler for me. It's got to be something more than bad luck. I do believe it's psycholical. How to overcome that is not in my repertoire. I promise you this much though...I'm going to find him come Summer and I will offer to shag 500 balls daily..(like I have the time!!!) if he wants to imprint successful shooting in his young brain.

Also, I'm certain Hondomeister will join me;)

theothegreat21
03-06-2012, 10:57 AM
to you. I have written many times: He doesn't shoot because he believes he gets his p.t. by not shooting, but doing what he does when he gets in. i.e. harassed opponents, steal rebounds after they are caught by others, at both ends of the court, push and rebound and sometimes put back, play heads up, double team the unsuspecting, cover when another zag is out of place. Is that enough ? Or am i still evading your question ?

Your stat sheet and a $2 (inflation, sorry) will get you a Starbucks Coffee of the Day. You are hanging on to a silly theory with apparently NO eye test, disregard for what coaches not given to lying have said, the testimony of admittedly shaky witnesses, and teammates.

Being the only guy on the floor that knows the shot clock is going down and nobody wants to shoot, taking reluctant shots because of your own hang up (not my role, he thinks), stealing a rebound and throwing the ball the length of the court in hopes of a hail mary etc etc., is hardly reflected on a stat sheet. Except poorly. Hart shoots when he absolutely has to. If he went in with the shooting mindset, it would be different. that's what those who watch him all the time say.

Put the sheet away and watch a game. Then ask yourself why on earth you would ever guard this guy. that's what our opponents see. You seem to think the most important thing is what happened when he reluctantly did shoot. This is all on MH. He has to decide to shoot. No one is holding him back, certainly not a stat sheet.

You are fiery today. I absolutely do watch the games...haven't missed many this year...and stand by the belief that in order for a team to win, everyone on the court must be a scoring option. Therefore, is one player is so reluctant to shoot that he won't even attempt a jumper when open, it hurts the entire team offensively. Ie. More attention paid to Harris and Pangos.

I think it's quite naive and a little ridiculous of you to say to simply ignore the stat sheet. If you have played basketball, which I assume you have, when you are in the course of the game, you aren't thinking "I'm open and Im a good shooter...but wait a second, that's not my role".

I think the most likely option is that when it isn't the summer, and we are playing against opponents with lots on the line, he simply isn't a good shooter or offensive player. That isn't a bad thing, it's just who he is.

Oregonzagnut
03-06-2012, 11:01 AM
Fact is everyone can and should improve their game.

Hart can improve his offense (shooting). That is what this thread is about, IMO.
Everyone can improve their Defense, (maybe even Hart)
And our staff can improve their play calling, player development and motivational skills.

To say Hart can and should shoot when wide open is obvious.

DADoZAG
03-06-2012, 11:02 AM
My point earlier and in multiple threads is that he can and does shoot incredibly well....just not in games. Real games.

If Mike Hart shoots very well but itís not in a D1 basketball game, does he really shoot well?

If Mike Hart believes that his roll is not to shoot, but staff is saying they donít understand why he doesnít shoot more, is there any communication between player and staff?

If posters believe that all Mike Hart has to do is practice shooting to be a good shooter during D1 games, could they ever be a successful D1 coach?

If itís the day after a ZAG loss, is it a good day to read the MBB?

Go ZAGS!

theothegreat21
03-06-2012, 11:13 AM
Lots of ways to outscore an opponent. I cannot know how many points Mike has prevented by his defense and his defensive antics outside of man on man type defense. I'd guess it's 10 or more when he had more pT. Just a guess though. Also I cannot know how much being disruptive is worth.

True, we must outscore to get a victory. Prevention of points is something not to be minimized though.
My point earlier and in multiple threads is that he can and does shoot incredibly well....just not in games. Real games. It's a puzzler for me. It's got to be something more than bad luck. I do believe it's psycholical. How to overcome that is not in my repertoire. I promise you this much though...I'm going to find him come Summer and I will offer to shag 500 balls daily..(like I have the time!!!) if he wants to imprint successful shooting in his young brain.

Also, I'm certain Hondomeister will join me;)

Abe...you and I both know that a person shooting in a gym by himself has no bearing on what he can do in a game, right?

gamagin
03-06-2012, 11:14 AM
You are fiery today. I absolutely do watch the games...haven't missed many this year...and stand by the belief that in order for a team to win, everyone on the court must be a scoring option. Therefore, is one player is so reluctant to shoot that he won't even attempt a jumper when open, it hurts the entire team offensively. Ie. More attention paid to Harris and Pangos.

I think it's quite naive and a little ridiculous of you to say to simply ignore the stat sheet.

I think the most likely option is that when it isn't the summer, and we are playing against opponents with lots on the line, he simply isn't a good shooter or offensive player. That isn't a bad thing, it's just who he is.

Look, anyone can go back and find those Hart/coach interviews. You are arguing with yourself about his reluctance. the stats are where you have planted your flag. You even want to use them to suggest he may not be able to shoot.

What do you want. I thought it was an honest answer.

Re: your quote above: "If you have played basketball, which I assume you have, when you are in the course of the game, you aren't thinking "I'm open and Im a good shooter...but wait a second, that's not my role".

that's exactly what he thinks, what he thought out way ahead of time, what he does and how he explained himself.

How many times and ways do you need to read it ? He is a calculating, smart (highest gpa on the team) guy who has figured how to get p.t. ANY p.t., at the start. He was a walk-on who figured his way onto the lineup and then onto the starting rotation, by doing what he does, which included not shooting.

I'm not going to give up on you. I know you can read. You do not seem to be able to ferret this out, however, because you have a piece of paper. It's not representative of this guy and these circumstances. Go back and find that interview. I believe it was with Heister. Hart was starting at the time, as I recall, and even then, the question of his shooting was broached. He and the coaches, I think even Daniels weighed in on the radio show, were all asked about MH's penchant for dishing instead of shooting.

It's a mystery to me that it's still a mystery at all.

MH doesn't shoot because he believes his role and p.t. are dependent on everything else he does. Being a smart guy, I'm guessing he has figured this out from practice and believes it like you believe yourself, and he cleaves to his own counsel, like you do yours, because it seems to serve him well. Even when you are both wrong. So hang on. But try not to seek an honest answer.

You are just looking for validation of stats over your conclusion based on an insignificant stat that ignores the rest of the picture, like you ignore MH's game and MH ignores his openings. imo.

I wonder which one of you will wake up first. I hope it's Hart, because, as has been said by many respected posters, Hart can shoot.

jim77
03-06-2012, 11:16 AM
I've said this all year long...its our offense that needs work. How many times last night did we huck up a ball to avoid the time clock expiring? I'll say this too...St Mary's aint the quickest team afoot in college ball yet, they gave our offense fits. So why have we won 25 games? We play defense.

So what does this have to do with Mike Hart? Mike hart is a very good defender..probably the best on the team. The guy is all over the court. He prevents scoring which to me is the same as scoring. Now, what if he could score? Would you rather we huck up last second shots...which usually miss...or see MH shoot a wide open shot? Oh, and who says he has to shoot a 3.....why can't he drive it to the rim and either dish or shoot? The guy is a fairly good ball handler...how many times does he get it ripped off when he's got the ball? How many of his passes get ripped off? Not many. What if the guy can shoot....as some posters on here say? Can you imagine what will happen to an opposing teams game plan if he can score? If we are going past the first weekend his has to shoot...simple as that...in fact I hope the coach has a talk with him and actually gets some plays designed just for the fact that he's probably gonna be wide open....it would catch teams TOTALLY off guard. Am I saying the guy needs 30 minutes a game? NO. But, he does need 20...to go along with 4 or 5 shots/drives.....which should get some heat off of our other players. To me its the wrinkle we need for the tourney....as other teams are simply gonna pressure our guards to slow us down.....yet have no plan for MH. I'd persoanlly like to see him shoot/drive more.

theothegreat21
03-06-2012, 11:16 AM
Look, anyone can go back and find those Hart/coach interviews. You are arguing with yourself about his reluctance. the stats are where you have planted your flag. You even want to use them to suggest he may not be able to shoot.

What do you want. I thought it was an honest answer.

Re: your quote above: "If you have played basketball, which I assume you have, when you are in the course of the game, you aren't thinking "I'm open and Im a good shooter...but wait a second, that's not my role".

that's exactly what he thinks, what he thought out way ahead of time, what he does and how he explained himself.

How many times and ways do you need to read it ? He is a calculating, smart (highest gpa on the team) guy who has figured how to get p.t. ANY p.t., at the start. He was a walk-on who figured his way onto the lineup and then onto the starting rotation, by doing what he does, which included not shooting.

I'm not going to give up on you. I know you can read. You do not seem to be able to ferret this out, however, because you have a piece of paper. It's not representative of this guy and these circumstances. Go back and find that interview. I believe it was with Heister. Hart was starting at the time, as I recall, and even then, the question of his shooting was broached. He and the coaches, I think even Daniels weighed in on the radio show, were all asked about MH's penchant for dishing instead of shooting.

It's a mystery to me that it's still a mystery at all.

MH doesn't shoot because he believes his role and p.t. are dependent on everything else he does. Being a smart guy, I'm guessing he has figured this out from practice and believes it like you believe yourself, and he cleaves to his own counsel, like you do yours, because it seems to serve him well. Even when you are both wrong. So hang on. But try not to seek an honest answer.

You are just looking for validation of stats over your conclusion based on an insignificant stat that ignores the rest of the picture, like you ignore MH's game and MH ignores his openings. imo.

I wonder which one of you will wake up first. I hope it's Hart, because, as has been said by many respected posters, Hart can shoot.

There is not one ounce of evidence that he can shoot...and also, no need to be condescending towards someone who doesn't agree with you.

gamagin
03-06-2012, 11:21 AM
I'm sure there something else besides the original question that stuck in your throat.

try not to choke on it. Clearly, you are too lazy to chase this down and shoved it down my throat. that leaves you and a piece of paper (a partial story) to prove your point.

I'm not going to do your heavy lifting. Just like MH, you need to do it yourself. But please, go ahead and prove me wrong.

and I will apologize.

That's what people seeking honest answers, and pose honest questions, try to do. You seem to think you have the Ark of the Covenant in your hands. You don't.

Good luck.

theothegreat21
03-06-2012, 11:26 AM
I'm sure there something else besides the original question that stuck in your throat.

try not to choke on it. Clearly, you are too lazy to chase this down and shoved it down my throat. that leaves you and a piece of paper (a partial story) to prove your point.

I'm not going to do your heavy lifting. Just like MH, you need to do it yourself. But please, go ahead and prove me wrong.

and I will apologize.

That's what people seeking honest answers, and pose honest questions, try to do. You seem to think you have the Ark of the Covenant in your hands. You don't.

Good luck.

Here is my best attempt to prove you wrong, which you will clearly not respect:

In his career, Mike Hart has made 4/24 from behind the three-point line and 28/72 total field-goals.

I'm aware my trust stat sheet reveals nothing, as you have so often told me. Despite making it clear that I believe Mike Hart has a role on this team as a 5-10 minute a game type person who can bring energy defensively, it's clear that I am totally wrong about him...or so you say.

cjm720
03-06-2012, 11:36 AM
So then why are people campaigning for him to play more? He isn't a scorer...the stats show it clearly.

He extends plays w his hustle. Period. I like him but hopefully Guy continues to play well on both ends.

MDABE80
03-06-2012, 11:36 AM
Abe...you and I both know that a person shooting in a gym by himself has no bearing on what he can do in a game, right?

No...perhaps you missed the prior posts...He was doing it against high level competition. Pros, peers etc

theothegreat21
03-06-2012, 11:40 AM
No...perhaps you missed the prior posts...He was doing it against high level competition. Pros, peers etc

Abe...I have seen the summer games...those guys are playing at 75% and even less on defense. In fact, they are told to not go 100%, which why a guy like Ira Brown looked so good in those games.

maynard g krebs
03-06-2012, 11:47 AM
to you. I have written many times: He doesn't shoot because he believes he gets his p.t. by not shooting, but doing what he does when he gets in. i.e. harassed opponents, steal rebounds after they are caught by others, at both ends of the court, push and rebound and sometimes put back, play heads up, double team the unsuspecting, cover when another zag is out of place. Is that enough ? Or am i still evading your question ?

Your stat sheet and a $2 (inflation, sorry) will get you a Starbucks Coffee of the Day. You are hanging on to a silly theory with apparently NO eye test, disregard for what coaches not given to lying have said, the testimony of admittedly shaky witnesses, and teammates.

Being the only guy on the floor that knows the shot clock is going down and nobody wants to shoot, taking reluctant shots because of your own hang up (not my role, he thinks), stealing a rebound and throwing the ball the length of the court in hopes of a hail mary etc etc., is hardly reflected on a stat sheet. Except poorly. Hart shoots when he absolutely has to. If he went in with the shooting mindset, it would be different. that's what those who watch him all the time say.

Put the sheet away and watch a game. Then ask yourself why on earth you would ever guard this guy. that's what our opponents see. You seem to think the most important thing is what happened when he reluctantly did shoot. This is all on MH. He has to decide to shoot. No one is holding him back, certainly not a stat sheet.

I shoot the ball well most of the time in pickup games. Anybody at my gym will tell you that.

Shooting under pressure when it matters is a different story. Confidence is everything to a shooter. We all know Carter can shoot. He did it last year. This year, he missed a few early, lost his confidence, and couldn't get it back.

It looks to me like Hart has no confidence when he shoots in games. Like Carter this year, he looks, imo, like he's afraid of missing rather than like he believes he can make it. And we always attract the object of our fear.

MH looks like he has a decent stroke. I have no doubt he can shoot it in pickup games. But as long as he appears to believe he's not a shooter, he isn't. Maybe in the handful of cupcake noncon games early next year, they can get him some looks and some confidence. It would be nice if he could make 30% and people had to guard him when he's in. But till he proves otherwise in actual games, he's what BZ said above. Which is a tremendous accomplishment considering his starting point.

CaliforniaZaggin'
03-06-2012, 11:48 AM
Mike plays hard, plays smart and knows his limitations. I can understand why some want to see more of him.

Zag79
03-06-2012, 12:01 PM
It looks to me like Hart has no confidence when he shoots in games. Like Carter this year, he looks, imo, like he's afraid of missing rather than like he believes he can make it. And we always attract the object of our fear.

I don't think Carter is worried about missing as much as being yanked after a miss. But back to Hart, I'm fine with him playing as he creates turnoevers, grabs rebounds, and makes many hustle plays that stuff the stat sheet everywhere but on offense. The important factor isn't his lack of shooting to me as much as who is is on the floor with. If he runs with Kevin, Gary, Elias, and Rob its great. When he's out there with Kevin, Gary, David, not so much. Ok, not at all. With David and GBJ it creates a situation where we have three guys that don't or can't shoot, leading to a stagnant offense.

MDABE80
03-06-2012, 12:11 PM
Abe...I have seen the summer games...those guys are playing at 75% and even less on defense. In fact, they are told to not go 100%, which why a guy like Ira Brown looked so good in those games.

These observations were from more than the weeklong scrimmages.
I kept going back to see more. I saw a very good shooter. This si why I'm all the more puzzled by Mike's lack of shooting.
You have your thoughts and I have mine. he can do better. I saw what I saw.

You, for some odd reason are "stuck on" what you saw. I saw more. We just disagree.

zag buddy
03-06-2012, 12:15 PM
Agree with Gamagin. If Mike threw it up like Kevin does and not be afraid to go 1 for 9 you would see a different Mike Hart. The coaches told him what they want and he does it superbly. If you want to question someone question the coaches. Remember Pendo. It wasn't until lhis senior year the coaches wanted him to shoot away from the basket. It's all about what the choaches want.

04ZagFan
03-06-2012, 12:16 PM
Forgive me for not sifting through every post here because I'm sure someone already said this....

But Mike Hart plays because of the type of plays he can make. Guess who got us to overtime? Elias? Yeah, but guess who else? Mike Hart. He's a very important situational player that MAKES PLAYS on D.

gamagin
03-06-2012, 12:22 PM
given the competition, if MH doesn't shoot enough to keep our opponents honest, he is likely going to get even less p.t., except in crisis situations.

Given he himself is doing everything he can to get more p.t., I believe he will start shooting more as well as everything else he does to make the Zags better.

I don't believe you will find that on your stat sheet.

I do think if you go back and see how Hart played, when he shot and under what circumstances, you might consider that the stat is interesting and reflective if that is all you look at, but irrelevant to Hart's game as he currently, intentionally, plays it.