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View Full Version : GBJ vs Top Shooting Guards



awberke
02-27-2012, 10:12 PM
I posted a similar one of these about Kevin Pangos.

This one only has 7 players as there were less shooting guards playing 25MPG or more.

Colors indicate comparison with the field in each category. Gary's Rank is his rank in each category.

My Conclusion: Gary is the most efficient shooting guard in the 2011 class. His defense does not show up in stats and that is arguably his best asset.

Notable: Gary has the second highest True Shooting % of any freshman guard (excluding 1 player with ~3ppg)

Work on: Rebounding and Turnovers

Again, this only took me about 20 minutes.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i153/aberke/SG-2.png

FieldHouseFishHouse
02-27-2012, 10:14 PM
I think the high shooting percentages and efficiency ranking for both KP and GBJ are indicative of a balanced offensive approach from this team.
It also indicated that both these players pick the right spots and deliver when expected.

sittingon50
02-27-2012, 10:30 PM
Thanks for those 2 charts, berke.

Birddog
02-28-2012, 03:41 AM
I'd like to see WooHoo do a chart and put it side by side with yours. I'm real interested in seeing the goat's numbers.

jazzdelmar
02-28-2012, 03:52 AM
so its safe to say that both KP and GB are in the top 5 among their positional peers. clearly wroten and burke and rivers are head of the pack. but taken as a tandem, i wd imagine GU has the best freshmen backcourt in the US. if those 2 USD guards were 6 inches taller each, that might not be true, however.

Reborn
02-28-2012, 04:52 AM
I think that one important thing also is the role the player has on the team. Gary could definitely be more assertive on the offensive end, but I think he defers on offense alot to the older players, Robert and Elias. He is not selfish and he is not a gunner. I think we saw a little last night what Gary can do when he has a larger role on offense (20 pts in what 15 minutes).

There has been some criticism of Mark Few on this forum for his inability to develop players. This is a good example of how good he is, and that the criticism he gets in this area is unjustified.

jazzdelmar
02-28-2012, 04:58 AM
I think that one important thing also is the role the player plays on the team. Gary could definitely be more assertive on the offensive end, but I think he defers on offense alot to the older players, Robert and Elias. He is not selfish and he is not a gunner. I think we saw a little last night what Gary can do when he has a larger role on offense.

There has been some criticism of Mark Few on this forum for his inability to develop players. This is a good example of how good he is, and that the criticism he gets in this area is unjustified.


born-jurys out on few the developer for a couple years. these kids came out of the box very good. i hope they dvelop more than harris and sacre, gray and bouldin; all of whom came to gu pretty darn good and at best flatlined if not regressed. imo, as a developer of players, few is a terrific recruiter.

CDC84
02-28-2012, 08:22 AM
The one thing that I have noticed with Gary is that he takes less "bad shots" than anyone on the team. I realize that he is a 4th option on offense, but still, there are an awful lot of bad shots that he passes up, and not because he couldn't make some of them.

webspinnre
02-28-2012, 08:28 AM
The one thing that I have noticed with Gary is that he takes less "bad shots" than anyone on the team. I realize that he is a 4th option on offense, but still, there are an awful lot of bad shots that he passes up, and not because he couldn't make some of them.

I've noticed this as well. He has a very good feel for what is a high percentage shot.

zag944
02-28-2012, 08:43 AM
The one thing that I have noticed with Gary is that he takes less "bad shots" than anyone on the team. I realize that he is a 4th option on offense, but still, there are an awful lot of bad shots that he passes up, and not because he couldn't make some of them.

In the handful of games I watched him in in hs he was always a very efficent offensive player then too, and this is in a situation when he was the first option. Very skilled at taking what the defense will give him, passing to the right guy, and creating chaos for the defense off the ball.

While he may not be what some people would call assertive, he does play with a lot of brains and confidence, and he's flirting with double digits as a freshman. Only averaging a basket or so less a game than the Bouldins, Pargos and Grays, and doing it with a better %age and less turnovers. It's very exciting.

DixieZag
02-28-2012, 08:46 AM
Few can't develop players? That is an incredibly overbroad statement. I think it comes from us focusing so much on "our" team that we don't see other teams players go through their four years. Some develope nicely, some don't.

How many times do you suppose that Rob has been told to not bring the ball down to his waist, don't take the extra dribble, go up strong? Some players simply have habits that can't be broken. Rob certainly increased his value by becoming an incredible FT shooter.

I think Elias developed tremendously this year over his last two years. He is not traveling every other time he drives, he has several new moves down low. GLE has developed. Dower has far more moves down low that last year.

Past players. Pargo? Turiaf (probably the two that developed most) Violette? Morrison? Ravio? J.P. Batista? I could go on and on.

bullzag23
02-28-2012, 08:50 AM
I think Elias developed tremendously this year over his last two years. He is not traveling every other time he drives, he has several new moves down low. GLE has developed. Dower has far more moves down low that last year.

Past players. Pargo? Turiaf (probably the two that developed most) Violette? Morrison? Ravio? J.P. Batista? I could go on and on.

He's also not getting charges every other time down the floor. It seems to me his decision making has gotten better this year.

CDC84
02-28-2012, 08:55 AM
The biggest gains in Elias' game have been on defensive end, not the offensive end. He was simply a terrible defender his first two years. I mean just horrible. He still has the occasional lapse, but his defense is vastly improved in almost every way this season. I know for a fact that the staff has worked with him a great deal to improve his defense. Lots of film study and such.

rennis
02-28-2012, 09:01 AM
The one thing that I have noticed with Gary is that he takes less "bad shots" than anyone on the team. I realize that he is a 4th option on offense, but still, there are an awful lot of bad shots that he passes up, and not because he couldn't make some of them.

His Frosh campaign reminds me a lot of Frahm's sophomore year, but Richie wasn't as versatile at that point in his career. (the flip side being Frahm had much better size.)

Very excited to see what GBJ is capable of by his Junior year. There is very little doubt in my mind that GBJ and KP will be considered among the best, if not the best, guard tandem in CBB in 2014 and 2015.

zag944
02-28-2012, 09:29 AM
really curious to see how Gary does in the conference awards. While Id vote them both in, Id probably vote for him before even Pangos.

In reality, I think he's probably not going to be on it (Pangos and Harris are locks, and I see them voting in Sacre before him too).

WallaWallaZag
02-28-2012, 09:31 AM
born-jurys out on few the developer for a couple years. these kids came out of the box very good. i hope they dvelop more than harris and sacre, gray and bouldin; all of whom came to gu pretty darn good and at best flatlined if not regressed. imo, as a developer of players, few is a terrific recruiter.

jazz...the flip side of being very good out of the box is that it is harder to quantify development, especially for the average zag recruit where the ceiling isn't as high as the blue chippers. unlike pangos and bell (especially pangos), the average zag freshman also doesn't take on a high percentage of responsibility for the team's overall success, meaning that it is harder to notice improvement year over year when a player is taking on additional responsibility. easier for a freshman/sophomore to look good when they aren't the focus of the offense or the opponent scouting report, something pangos has had to deal with this year and adjust to on the fly.

as an aside, looking at pangos i'm not sure just how much room for improvement there actually is...cutting down turnovers and building consistency so that he plays on the road like he does at home i think will come, and i think the assists will go up once the perimeter offensive load shifts to bell plus possibly dranginis or another (and the fact that sacre won't be stealing assists by getting fouled instead of finishing), but will he become a point guard capable of constantly penetrating and dishing or finishing in addition to his perimeter shooting? ...not sure the ceiling is that high.

Colbyspapa
02-28-2012, 09:50 AM
born-jurys out on few the developer for a couple years. these kids came out of the box very good. i hope they dvelop more than harris and sacre, gray and bouldin; all of whom came to gu pretty darn good and at best flatlined if not regressed. imo, as a developer of players, few is a terrific recruiter.

Completely disagree. Stephen Gray was a good highschool player made into an all league college player on a top 15 team. Bouldin came in the best player in Colorado and left a professional basketball player. Ronny Turiaf and Rob Sacre came in raw and not just a little raw. Ronny is in the league 6 years and Rob will go make a nice living overseas. Ravio, Dickau, Morrison, you cannot argue the success. How much better could Ammo have gotten? Why wasn't Dickau all world at UW?

I tend to agree with some of your PG evals. I suspect you coach as I do, but this comment is just wrong. Not sure where Few jaded you, but I'll take mid grade recruiting classes and top level results any day.

WallaWallaZag
02-28-2012, 10:12 AM
born-jurys out on few the developer for a couple years. these kids came out of the box very good. i hope they dvelop more than harris and sacre, gray and bouldin; all of whom came to gu pretty darn good and at best flatlined if not regressed. imo, as a developer of players, few is a terrific recruiter.

disagree about bouldin...he was one of those guys that stepped onto the gu campus so good he was pretty darn close to his ceiling, yet obviously improved every year until his senior year, which is easily explained. the stats don't lie...look at the improvement for the first three years, especially in terms of efficiency.

SEASON MIN FG% 3P% FTM-FTA FT% REB AST STL TO PTS
2009-10 35.6 .451 .365 3.8-4.5 .858 4.7 4.0 1.4 2.3 15.6
2008-09 31.7 .491 .423 2.8-3.8 .744 4.1 3.4 1.5 1.7 13.6
2007-08 32.0 .462 .365 2.5-3.2 .767 3.7 2.9 1.4 2.5 12.6
2006-07 27.8 .448 .363 1.9-2.6 .742 3.6 3.1 0.8 2.0 8.9

bouldin even improved his senior year except efficiency...why? he struggled with some injuries his senior year and the big one...demetri goodson took over the point guard position bouldin's senior year. not meech bashing because i like him and the things he brought to the table, but there is no denying the affect he had on bouldin's altered responsibilities and overall game.

ZagLawGrad
02-28-2012, 10:47 AM
Wish Bell would shoot more. Seems like he hesitates at times to pull the trigger. Kid has a dead eye and a sweet stroke.

maynard g krebs
02-28-2012, 11:24 AM
The player development thing is sort of a chicken-or-egg question, but the GU staff is either very good at player development, or are exceptionally good at finding under the radar recruits that are much better than anyone else thinks. Or a combination of both.

Something like seven 4 star recruits in the history of the program, and logically, the results should be much less than we've seen. To say Few is a great recruiter who can't develop players is just dumb.

04ZagFan
02-28-2012, 11:36 AM
born-jurys out on few the developer for a couple years. these kids came out of the box very good. i hope they dvelop more than harris and sacre, gray and bouldin; all of whom came to gu pretty darn good and at best flatlined if not regressed. imo, as a developer of players, few is a terrific recruiter.

I agree with this 100%. Whether or not it's the staffs fault for a handful of players not developing more is the question. Maybe they maxed out their potential very early.

Not everybody is going to improve a ton from year 1 to year 4. We've certainly seen a ton of development over the past 13 years, just not a ton recently. Tons of transfers has contributed to that, and also, guys like Bouldin and Gray came into their freshman years just about as good as they left, IMO which is fine, because both were very good as freshmen, and the only thing that grew, was their roles. Sacre has improved a ton on defense, but his offense is what it always has been. That's fine. Elias' numbers haven't really improved, but you can see the development on the court, especially on D. Pangos and Gary do have a lot of room for improvement, especially Pangos, so hopefully when they are upperclassmen, we won't be discussing their road woes, and I'm sure both will get more points from inside the 3 point line.

jagwalkley
02-28-2012, 12:14 PM
If Pangos can learn to penetrate the lane and finish (use the glass)or pass out to Bell etc. and Bell gets more shots and Spangler comes along,we are going to have a lot of fun the next few years. I am still with Walla Walla Zag on most of what he said. I"m not sure the work ethic is there like before.

Oregonzagnut
02-28-2012, 12:54 PM
born-jurys out on few the developer for a couple years. these kids came out of the box very good. i hope they dvelop more than harris and sacre, gray and bouldin; all of whom came to gu pretty darn good and at best flatlined if not regressed. imo, as a developer of players, few is a terrific recruiter.

IMO, guards are not in the conversation as much. We always seem to develop good guards at Gonzaga. IMO, I think our player development gets weaker as we get bigger with our forwards and centers. I mean look at WF, KO and RS. They had to redshirt to give them more time (Foster should have red-shirted). Is that the kids fault or our staff's?

So I or anyone else who question Few's " player development", I think we are pointing towards our front court big men, not the 1, 2 or 3 spots.

Just my opinion.

WallaWallaZag
02-28-2012, 11:39 PM
I agree with this 100%. Whether or not it's the staffs fault for a handful of players not developing more is the question. Maybe they maxed out their potential very early.

Not everybody is going to improve a ton from year 1 to year 4. We've certainly seen a ton of development over the past 13 years, just not a ton recently. Tons of transfers has contributed to that, and also, guys like Bouldin and Gray came into their freshman years just about as good as they left, IMO which is fine, because both were very good as freshmen, and the only thing that grew, was their roles. Sacre has improved a ton on defense, but his offense is what it always has been. That's fine. Elias' numbers haven't really improved, but you can see the development on the court, especially on D. Pangos and Gary do have a lot of room for improvement, especially Pangos, so hopefully when they are upperclassmen, we won't be discussing their road woes, and I'm sure both will get more points from inside the 3 point line.

if you think sacre's offense is what it always has been, you obviously don't remember sacre his first two years here. his skill development has been incredible, especially considering the total lack of hops and hands of stone.

if you don't think there is serious skill development over a single summer, go re-watch the first 7 games of this season, especially the first three, and you'll see a sacre that really improved his game...why he regressed after that i have no idea, but it wasn't just the thumb injury.

gu03alum
02-29-2012, 04:35 AM
Bell is going to be a special player in my opinion. What he and Pangos have done as true freshman is very impressive.

jazzdelmar
02-29-2012, 04:54 AM
colby: Completely disagree. Stephen Gray was a good highschool player made into an all league college player on a top 15 team. Bouldin came in the best player in Colorado and left a professional basketball player.

huh, just "good." gray was state player of the year i believe. much ballyhooed. best recruit in years. bouldin was better as a soph and maybe junior and gray's best year was as a soph. bouldin may get paid but it's in some funny currency in some unknown city overseas. turiaf like pargo exploded after they left school and im not sure where u think sacre will get paid. harris, despite our fervent wishes, is still not as dynamic as he was freshman year. ammo was ammo. few just let him do his thing. smart move.

gu03alum
02-29-2012, 04:58 AM
colby: Completely disagree. Stephen Gray was a good highschool player made into an all league college player on a top 15 team. Bouldin came in the best player in Colorado and left a professional basketball player.

huh, just "good." gray was state player of the year i believe. much ballyhooed. best recruit in years. bouldin was better as a soph and maybe junior and gray's best year was as a soph. bouldin may get paid but it's in some funny currency in some unknown city overseas.

It's funny to think that Gray, Daye, Sacre and Ira! all came in together.

Zagsker
02-29-2012, 07:53 AM
Few can't develop players? That is an incredibly overbroad statement. I think it comes from us focusing so much on "our" team that we don't see other teams players go through their four years. Some develope nicely, some don't.

How many times do you suppose that Rob has been told to not bring the ball down to his waist, don't take the extra dribble, go up strong? Some players simply have habits that can't be broken. Rob certainly increased his value by becoming an incredible FT shooter.

I think Elias developed tremendously this year over his last two years. He is not traveling every other time he drives, he has several new moves down low. GLE has developed. Dower has far more moves down low that last year.

Past players. Pargo? Turiaf (probably the two that developed most) Violette? Morrison? Ravio? J.P. Batista? I could go on and on.

I think Few's staff struggle's to develop big men...Sacre is a RS Sr and all the guy has for an offensive move is to put his shoulder into the guy and do a hook...he has no game from the FT line (where he gets the ball almost EVERY possession down the court). Even Heytvelt lacked a good upgrade in his skills down low (he hovered at the 3 point line and had a hook down low)...I guess we could say Harris has "developed" but he looks just as aggressive as he did his FRESHMEN year (not a lot of time for coaches to develop a freshmen). I think the one area he has improved and this could be credited to the staff is his increase of control when driving to the lane...if you remember last year he would just lower his head and go into the lane and usually end up with a charge/walk..this year he has added a nice hop jump to the right/left to avoid that...but mainly I think it is him dropping some LB's from last year and just being far more assertive. JP Batista was a natural beast who just had a good understanding of the game from the get go. Same with Morrison. The staff develops players to an extent but I truly believe they lack at really developing down low players


and to add...Dower does not have more moves down low than he had last year

Zagsker
02-29-2012, 07:55 AM
IMO, guards are not in the conversation as much. We always seem to develop good guards at Gonzaga. IMO, I think our player development gets weaker as we get bigger with our forwards and centers. I mean look at WF, KO and RS. They had to redshirt to give them more time (Foster should have red-shirted). Is that the kids fault or our staff's?

So I or anyone else who question Few's " player development", I think we are pointing towards our front court big men, not the 1, 2 or 3 spots.

Just my opinion.

yup

04ZagFan
02-29-2012, 12:50 PM
if you think sacre's offense is what it always has been, you obviously don't remember sacre his first two years here. his skill development has been incredible, especially considering the total lack of hops and hands of stone.

if you don't think there is serious skill development over a single summer, go re-watch the first 7 games of this season, especially the first three, and you'll see a sacre that really improved his game...why he regressed after that i have no idea, but it wasn't just the thumb injury.

The first two years? You mean the first 2 years when he was the 5th option on offense, playing a few minutes per game with the Pargo-Daye-Heytvelt-Downs-Bouldin teams? Uhh how did we know what type of player he was? He rarely played, and rarely shot the ball.

His sophomore season when he became the starter and focal point of the offense, he got off to an awesome start. He's basically the same player offensively. That's just reality. He's still putting up solid numbers (very similar to his sophomore season) and his defense has been great...

But don't tell me that his skill development has been "incredible" when he's still only got that one post move where he turns left, throws his left shoulder into the defender, and throws up the right handed baby hook. Hey, that move is money when they single cover him...

Colbyspapa
02-29-2012, 01:18 PM
Development. Don't these stats speak to development Jazz?

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/gonzaga/matt-bouldin

He increased in points, assists and rebounds each year. His minutes were shockingly the same from freshman to senior year.

How about this one?

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/gonzaga/steven-gray

His points, assists and rebounds increased every year, along with his haircut. I know you think his best year was his sophomore but I disagree. He just had more players around him that took the pressure off.

Stats aren't everything. Player development is demonstrated in leadership, feel for the game and personal discipline. Mark Few and his staff help build great young men as well as basketball players.

maynard g krebs
02-29-2012, 02:17 PM
I'm going to disagree with the statement that GU hasn't developed bigs well.

I saw Zach Gourde in hs, and thought he looked like the bigs Ken Bone was getting at Seattle Pacific then. Despite his last year, he still had a pretty good career.

Cory Violette's best other offers were mtn west level, and when he was done almost anyone in the pac 10 would have been happy to have him.

A certain former UW asst coach called the GU staff to let them know they were passing on a raw kid named Calvary, and he might be OK for GU's level.

A walkon named Spink wound up being pretty good.

Dench improved a ton his senior year, especially.

Turiaf had talent but was very raw as a fr, and improved as much as CV and CC through his career.

And I think Sacre's offensive game has improved more than many give him credit for.

Not one of these guys was a blue chip recruit. Most, if not all, were more successful than a lot of higher rated players.

04ZagFan
02-29-2012, 02:33 PM
I'm going to disagree with the statement that GU hasn't developed bigs well.

I saw Zach Gourde in hs, and thought he looked like the bigs Ken Bone was getting at Seattle Pacific then. Despite his last year, he still had a pretty good career.

Cory Violette's best other offers were mtn west level, and when he was done almost anyone in the pac 10 would have been happy to have him.

A certain former UW asst coach called the GU staff to let them know they were passing on a raw kid named Calvary, and he might be OK for GU's level.

A walkon named Spink wound up being pretty good.

Dench improved a ton his senior year, especially.

Turiaf had talent but was very raw as a fr, and improved as much as CV and CC through his career.

And I think Sacre's offensive game has improved more than many give him credit for.

Not one of these guys was a blue chip recruit. Most, if not all, were more successful than a lot of higher rated players.

This is very fair.. And I would agree with most of it. But I would say, that your examples of players who developed a lot, are players that were in the program years ago, other than Rob, who just hasn't developed like the old bigs. Recently, I think is where we are raising question.

Dirt McGirt
02-29-2012, 03:03 PM
What are clutch games?

maynard g krebs
02-29-2012, 03:18 PM
This is very fair.. And I would agree with most of it. But I would say, that your examples of players who developed a lot, are players that were in the program years ago, other than Rob, who just hasn't developed like the old bigs. Recently, I think is where we are raising question.

It's true that Rob's overall #s haven't improved this year. But it's interesting to break down his season into 3 parts; pre-injury, injury, post-injury.

Since I don't remember the exact date he was hurt, I'm making an assumption based on stats when I break down his season. Throwing out the Longwood game.

In the first 9 games and the last 11 (pre and post injury) Rob shot 54.6 from the floor and averaged 14.2 per game. In the middle 8 games, he shot 36.8% and averaged 6.2. When there's that extreme a difference in a player's production, it's reasonable to assume the injury is the cause. So the numbers when healthy are clearly better, and contradict the subjective evaluation that he didn't improve.

awberke
02-29-2012, 03:22 PM
It's true that Rob's overall #s haven't improved this year. But it's interesting to break down his season into 3 parts; pre-injury, injury, post-injury.

Since I don't remember the exact date he was hurt, I'm making an assumption based on stats when I break down his season. Throwing out the Longwood game.

In the first 9 games and the last 11 (pre and post injury) Rob shot 54.6 from the floor and averaged 14.2 per game. In the middle 8 games, he shot 36.8% and averaged 6.2. When there's that extreme a difference in a player's production, it's reasonable to assume the injury is the cause. So the numbers when healthy are clearly better, and contradict the subjective evaluation that he didn't improve.

Same goes for Harris last year.