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View Full Version : Why I kind of like this loss



TheGonzagaFactor
02-18-2012, 11:29 PM
First off, if you haven't noticed my postgame rants, I feel like we won a road game even though we played very poorly and USF had their best all around game of the year.

So, as crazy as it may sound, I think this loss is a good thing (assuming we win out after tonight) because it probably puts the Zags in the 6/7 seed range rather than the 4/5 line that would draw the 1 seed a round earlier. I also dread getting a 5 seed because the committee intentionally picks red hot teams as 12 seeds for an obvious upset (historically there are more 12>5 upsets than 11>6 upsets!).

I know this loss was frustrating, very frustrating, but it puts us to where we can finish hot and get a very favorable spot in the bracket in terms of staying away from the 1 seed as long as possible.

Zagnificent
02-19-2012, 06:34 AM
It all depends on what you value, and whether you think St. Mary's will choke again, or if we will beat BYU. If you'd rather have an outside chance at making it to another Elite 8 instead of another winning another conference title, then you sentiment makes a little sense. However, given the recent history of seeding and the near yearly insult to the Zags by the selection committee, I didn't think we would land a 5 seed regardless. Also, this puts the burden on our shoulders to win out and hope dearly that St. Mary's also loses to USF (a distinct possibility).

zagfan1
02-19-2012, 07:28 AM
I think the loss at BYU you could say that but this is too far along in the conference. In my mind one of two things are happening: either the team has downplayed the importance of winning the conference or they are truly just inconsistent.

Ezag
02-19-2012, 07:32 AM
I don't like this loss at all. If we drop another, show poorly in the WCC Tourney, seeding might not matter anyway.

jimmy b
02-19-2012, 07:55 AM
Agree it may mean better seeding in Ncaa's (techinically worse, but you know what I mean).

But hate to lose, especially a game we should have won.

We Brody'd ourselves this year.

Oregonzagnut
02-19-2012, 08:23 AM
With all due respect, this loss was one of the top 10 WORST conference losses of all time.

So I disagree with the OP. Also it was close and arguable but IMO USF did not have their best all around game. We beat them in every category EXCEPT TO's. We had 23!!! They had 10!! That means 13 more possessions for them.

We had one of our worst all around games.

The ONLY thing they did was full court press the entire game and we DID nothing to combat it. I agree with Reborns thread that it was an almost juvenile oversight by our entire staff and team to not either pass out of the press or press right back with even more force! We stood aroound and hoped they would just stop it.

All anyone can say is that USF had their best defensive game of the season. USF's game against Pacific statistically was their best all around game. USF had only 5 turnovers the entire game and shot 51%

whatazag
02-19-2012, 09:15 AM
Eh, I don't like the loss, I think losses like this can put us down in the 8/9 range which is the absolute worst. Plus now we probably won't win the WCC, which I think is a streak worth caring about.

gamagin
02-19-2012, 09:46 AM
make it difficult on ourselves, abandon that semblance of the game we could call our own (teamwork, helping each other), and then losing on a circus shot & likely bad call, is going to make us better going forward.

Failing to take charge and control of what we know we can is not good for us, imo.

I think we have to get back to our own game, trust each other, our own attitude and stick to it from now on. If that's the lesson, well I thought we'd learned it.

But, fwiw & imo, it is time to reassure ourselves that we've done it before, we can do it again.

FrahmFromDeep
02-19-2012, 10:08 AM
Yeah, a great loss.... WTF?

So you'd rather be done in the first weekend than play in the sweet 16? Gonzaga isn't beating any 2 seeds this year.

GU69
02-19-2012, 10:36 AM
Nothing good about the loss.

Nothing good about more turnovers than I can count.

Seeding in the NCAAs? Where's the guarantee that the Zags are in the NCAAs? Lose to BYU and we're tied with LMU for fourth in the WCC.

FrahmFromDeep
02-19-2012, 11:03 AM
Nothing good about the loss.

Nothing good about more turnovers than I can count.

Seeding in the NCAAs? Where's the guarantee that the Zags are in the NCAAs? Lose to BYU and we're tied with LMU for fourth in the WCC.

Unless we lose to BYU AND San Diego or Longwood AND lose in the first round of the WCC tournament, we are a lock for the NCAA tournament.

TheGonzagaFactor
02-19-2012, 11:09 AM
Just trying to stay positive, people.

It's not like I was rooting for us to lose. I just think a lot of posters are being far too negative given that SMC is falling apart and we still have plenty of opportunity to make the tourney and do well in it. We will be fine if we take care of BYU (who just won by 1 at SF, like we should have).

FrahmFromDeep
02-19-2012, 11:13 AM
Just trying to stay positive, people.

It's not like I was rooting for us to lose. I just think a lot of posters are being far too negative given that SMC is falling apart and we still have plenty of opportunity to make the tourney and do well in it. We will be fine if we take care of BYU (who just won by 1 at SF, like we should have).

The problem is, so many of us WANT to get back to an elite eight, or possibly even a final four... And the unfortunate reality is, you simply can't lose 3 WCC games and expect to get a seed that will put us in a position to get there. And the last few years now, we've put ourselves in the very unfortunate position that even making a sweet 16 appears to be impossible.

TheGonzagaFactor
02-19-2012, 11:15 AM
Yeah, a great loss.... WTF?

So you'd rather be done in the first weekend than play in the sweet 16? Gonzaga isn't beating any 2 seeds this year.

I said this makes it more likely to be a 6/7 which keeps you away from the 1 seed for another round. Perhaps I should have noted that I think there is a huge gap between the 1 seeds and 2 seeds.

FrahmFromDeep
02-19-2012, 11:21 AM
I said this makes it more likely to be a 6/7 which keeps you away from the 1 seed for another round. Perhaps I should have noted that I think there is a huge gap between the 1 seeds and 2 seeds.

Looking at the 4 current projected 2 seeds, there is no way we'd beat any of them. UNC, Ohio State, Duke, Michigan State (Who is playing much better than when they beat us in Spokane)

This team wont get out of the first weekend yet again, because of another bad WCC loss.

Reborn
02-19-2012, 11:31 AM
Mr Gonzagafactor your thinking is postive and nice. However, I do think the title for your thread and your thinking that a loss like this one was good, then I think people do have an issue with that. It was not a good game to lose, and I don't believe any fan wanted to lose at USF. I know I can not stand Walters' arrogance, and i do not worry about USF in the WCC tournament. They are no different then last year. They are better then last year overall, but so are the Zags and most of the teams in the WCC.

The Zags lost their last year also, so this is not new. They also lost the year before. The issue at hand is not what happened last night but what will the coaches do in the future from here. The Zags have some lessons to learn in my opinion, and unfortunately they are not LEARNING them and they will continue to make the same mistakes until Few demands that things change. And imo, he has not done that. He has continued to play certainly players all year long who have made boneheaded turnovers all year long. And he has not, imo given a couple guys on the bench that have deserved a better chance to show that they have what it takes. Few has accepted turnovers all year by continue to play players who, in my opinion, have not earned it. If he continues to play them, and I think he will, he will only have himself to blame for how things turned out this year.

FrahmFromDeep
02-19-2012, 11:35 AM
Mr Gonzagafactor your thinking is postive and nice. However, I do think the title for your thread and your thinking that a loss like this one was good, then I think people do have an issue with that. It was not a good game to lose, and I don't believe any fan wanted to lose at USF. I know I can not stand Walters' arrogance, and i do not worry about USF in the WCC tournament. They are no different then last year. They are better then last year overall, but so are the Zags and most of the teams in the WCC.

The Zags lost their last year also, so this is not new. They also lost the year before. The issue at hand is not what happened last night but what will the coaches do in the future from here. The Zags have some lessons to learn in my opinion, and unfortunately they are not LEARNING them and they will continue to make the same mistakes until Few demands that things change. And imo, he has not done that. He has continued to play certainly players all year long who have made boneheaded turnovers all year long. And he has not, imo given a couple guys on the bench that have deserved a better chance to show that they have what it takes. Few has accepted turnovers all year by continue to play players who, in my opinion, have not earned it. If he continues to play them, and I think he will, he will only have himself to blame for how things turned out this year.

Forgive me if you've already explained this... But who are you benching, and for whom are you benching that player for?

jim77
02-19-2012, 11:39 AM
There might be a silver lining in this loss....it gives our coaches exactly 5 days to teach our guys how to break a press. When we get to set up our offense were actually pretty good. We ain't when we're in perpetual ball theft mode. The coach has to look at MC and MM at helping the press. I can't imagine what would have happened had last nights foe been Kentucky. Lets sharpen our game and get into the tourney.

Reborn
02-19-2012, 12:17 PM
Forgive me if you've already explained this... But who are you benching, and for whom are you benching that player for?

I would change David Stockton's role to only be a back up point guard for Pangos, and he would not play more than 10 minutes and only when he is needed at point guard.

I would defintely not use Stockton and Pangos on the court at the same time. They are a liability on D and it showed big time last night and Big time in our loss @ St Mary's. I would use Carter instead of Stockton in that set offense. I think Few likes it, but he's got the wrong players in.

Few likes David becasue he can pass into the post, but honestly our low post offense is not as good as Few would like it to be. Robert has many problems in the post and especially when we play teams that sag in the middle and help out on him. He has struggled all year with this and he did again last night. The same can be said for Sam Dower. He is a non factor when teams play the kind of defense USF played last night.

I would have played Hart more. Period. In a game with tons of turnovers he's one guy who takes care of the ball, plays good defense, boards, and is a team player. When Edi plays as poorly as he did last night Few needs to go with Hart more. And if we need a shooter when we play a team who plays a collapsing defense that collapses into the middle, then you need someone like Monninghoff. Monninghoff should have been given a look last night, and a good one. I think if someone has been overlooked this year it is Monninghoff. Not sure what's behind it, but we sure did need some outside shooting last night. I would have at least given him a good look.

jim77
02-19-2012, 12:31 PM
I would change David Stockton's role to only be a back up point guard for Pangos, and he would not play more than 10 minutes and only when he is needed at point guard.

I would defintely not use Stockton and Pangos on the court at the same time. They are a liability on D and it showed big time last night and Big time in our loss @ St Mary's. I would use Carter instead of Stockton in that set offense. I think Few likes it, but he's got the wrong players in.

Few likes David becasue he can pass into the post, but honestly our low post offense is not as good as Few would like it to be. Robert has many problems in the post and especially when we play teams that sag in the middle and help out on him. He has struggled all year with this and he did again last night. The same can be said for Sam Dower. He is a non factor when teams play the kind of defense USF played last night.

I would have played Hart more. Period. In a game with tons of turnovers he's one guy who takes care of the ball, plays good defense, boards, and is a team player. When Edi plays as poorly as he did last night Few needs to go with Hart more. And if we need a shooter when we play a team who plays a collapsing defense that collapses into the middle, then you need someone like Monninghoff. Monninghoff should have been given a look last night, and a good one. I think if someone has been overlooked this year it is Monninghoff. Not sure what's behind it, but we sure did need some outside shooting last night. I would have at least given him a good look.

Dead on again.

FrahmFromDeep
02-19-2012, 12:35 PM
I would change David Stockton's role to only be a back up point guard for Pangos, and he would not play more than 10 minutes and only when he is needed at point guard.

With the way he has been playing, I agree with you 100%

I would defintely not use Stockton and Pangos on the court at the same time. They are a liability on D and it showed big time last night and Big time in our loss @ St Mary's. I would use Carter instead of Stockton in that set offense. I think Few likes it, but he's got the wrong players in.

I don't like Pangos and Stockton playing together either. The problem with Carter, is that I have seen nothing from him that warrants PT. He's been awful.

Few likes David becasue he can pass into the post, but honestly our low post offense is not as good as Few would like it to be. Robert has many problems in the post and especially when we play teams that sag in the middle and help out on him. He has struggled all year with this and he did again last night. The same can be said for Sam Dower. He is a non factor when teams play the kind of defense USF played last night.

Yup, yup, and yup.

I would have played Hart more. Period. In a game with tons of turnovers he's one guy who takes care of the ball, plays good defense, boards, and is a team player. When Edi plays as poorly as he did last night Few needs to go with Hart more. And if we need a shooter when we play a team who plays a collapsing defense that collapses into the middle, then you need someone like Monninghoff. Monninghoff should have been given a look last night, and a good one. I think if someone has been overlooked this year it is Monninghoff. Not sure what's behind it, but we sure did need some outside shooting last night. I would have at least given him a good look.

I agree with this as well!


Great posts, Reborn. I don't really have much to add, because I think you covered it all.

roxdoc
02-19-2012, 01:16 PM
Buried in another thread was this from GeorgiaZagFan:

.what happened in this 4 minute stretch ... just under 12:00 in the first half to about 8:00 left in the first half. The Dons went on a 13-0 run!!

Foul on Sam Dower LEADING 19-12
Marquise Carter Turnover
David Stockton Turnover
Foul on David Stockton
Foul on Gary Bell
Sam Dower missed Three Point Jumper.
Foul on Robert Sacre
Kevin Pangos missed Three Point Jumper.
Foul on Marquise Carter DOWN 19-25
Gonzaga Full Timeout.

This sequence started when for some reason coach decided to substitute: Dower, Stockton, and Carter all at once into a very tough, competitive situation. Please note that our only scoring attempts of record in this four minute stretch were 2 unsuccessful 3-pt shots.

Reborn
02-19-2012, 04:06 PM
Buried in another thread was this from GeorgiaZagFan:

.what happened in this 4 minute stretch ... just under 12:00 in the first half to about 8:00 left in the first half. The Dons went on a 13-0 run!!

Foul on Sam Dower LEADING 19-12
Marquise Carter Turnover
David Stockton Turnover
Foul on David Stockton
Foul on Gary Bell
Sam Dower missed Three Point Jumper.
Foul on Robert Sacre
Kevin Pangos missed Three Point Jumper.
Foul on Marquise Carter DOWN 19-25
Gonzaga Full Timeout.

This sequence started when for some reason coach decided to substitute: Dower, Stockton, and Carter all at once into a very tough, competitive situation. Please note that our only scoring attempts of record in this four minute stretch were 2 unsuccessful 3-pt shots.

Very good observation here. I'm glad you wrote this post. This is a good example of Few's coaching this year, not only last night but all season. Bloggers here often wonder why we lose leads all the time? This is a perfect example. Our bench overall had not played well at all on the road. Our best sub, and really the only one who can score more than 4 points, is Dower and Sam is almost always horrible on the road. but back to your point. Few often has 3 guys in who are not scorers: like Stockton, Carter and Hart for example. Or last night Dower. And we cannot score, and we do lose leads.
It's like Few thinks he owes guys playing time. Or he just is Mr Nice Guy and doesn't like to get up by 20 points, or bury a team in the second half. Well. He may get the Mr. Nice guy award this year, but if he keeps it up it's the only award he'll get.

Baseline
02-19-2012, 08:04 PM
The rotation has perplexed me all year.

Some one gets hot and Few pulls him?

If we lose one more conference game and don't win the tournament I'm doubtful GU will see the tournament, its not a given guys. I'm VERY nervous about getting into the tournament the way things are stacking up.

awberke
02-19-2012, 08:29 PM
The rotation has perplexed me all year.

Some one gets hot and Few pulls him?

If we lose one more conference game and don't win the tournament I'm doubtful GU will see the tournament, its not a given guys. I'm VERY nervous about getting into the tournament the way things are stacking up.

Based on what? Our only "bad loss" is to USF. We have 4 top-50 and 7 top-100 wins and the opportunity to get a couple more. If we lose to BYU at home then its something to think about but our resume is still good.

Oregonzagnut
02-19-2012, 08:35 PM
The rotation has perplexed me all year.

Some one gets hot and Few pulls him?

If we lose one more conference game and don't win the tournament I'm doubtful GU will see the tournament, its not a given guys. I'm VERY nervous about getting into the tournament the way things are stacking up.

IMO, I understand it. To overgeneralize, he is a micromanaging perfectionist who demands blind obedience to play execution. We all love it (including me) because it works 90% of the time on most teams. Believe it or not I think we are a top 10 team this year. But when a team like USF has nothing to lose, with and added 11 years of not being in first, we need to find a reason more important than what they have. If 12 in a row is the only thing we are playing for then BE GONE WITH IT.

I'll take 1 national championship in a row to our 11 WCC's in a row. But we can have both! Few needs to publicly redefine our programs priorities and strive for it.

Baseline
02-19-2012, 09:49 PM
IMO, I understand it. To overgeneralize, he is a micromanaging perfectionist who demands blind obedience to play execution. We all love it (including me) because it works 90% of the time on most teams. Believe it or not I think we are a top 10 team this year. But when a team like USF has nothing to lose, with and added 11 years of not being in first, we need to find a reason more important than what they have. If 12 in a row is the only thing we are playing for then BE GONE WITH IT.

I'll take 1 national championship in a row to our 11 WCC's in a row. But we can have both! Few needs to publicly redefine our programs priorities and strive for it.

I understand what your saying, but not sure I agree on this one. I love the Zags and this group of guys, but they are still on the learning curve and I don't expect big things from them this year. Hope I'm wrong, but I'm just hoping they can get into the tournament. I still believe we are the class of the WCC, but as a group we lost it this year with a lot of little issues that didn't get resolved in a timely manner and still linger.

Baseline
02-19-2012, 09:54 PM
Based on what? Our only "bad loss" is to USF. We have 4 top-50 and 7 top-100 wins and the opportunity to get a couple more. If we lose to BYU at home then its something to think about but our resume is still good.

We could easily finish 3rd in the conference and lose the tournament. While we have a good record, I don't trust the selection committee to pick us, they may just say GU has a down year so lets go with someone else. If we didn't set the tournament on fire when we won everything, they won't expect much on a down year and bypass us, thats my thinking.