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MDABE80
02-03-2012, 10:11 AM
We've lost 2 games in conference . SMC and BYU at their places.
We can correct both at our place. Why do I think so??

My take from last night was that we beat ourselves ...the first half anyway. The first half we lost by 14 pts. We lost that half with 15 of the 19 turnovers, poor defense, terrible 25% shooting, a sick PG and an overwhelming 22K hostile, out for blood crowd.
Harstock in particular went wild with nobody guarding him. Small wonder.

SO what changed to allow us to win the 2nd half by 4 pts. Several things.
Defense got lots better. Hart rolls in and contributed what he always does. Defense..Hartstock's rampage stopped. We only had 4 turnovers in the 2nd half. The crowd was taken out of it...and we did much better. Errant passing was reduced and out shooting picked up.

A big factor to remember is that we were down as much as 19 pts in a very hostile environment. I quite agree, our Frosh lilted under the crowd. BUT they played better and Carter finally showed up with some pts and leadership. Importantly our 3 bigs were outscored 43 -33. They took the night off mostly...clumsy, poor defense and marginal rebounding.

But to the point. If those things above can be corrected ( as they were in the 2nd half), does anyone doubt we can win those 2 big games at home in from of our crowd? I don't. SMC needs another loss besides from us. USD did us a nice favor last year. We need another from someone in our league. We go nowhere if we don't win at home though.

We're not out of it yet though. Hart's just SO important to this team. We cannot dig out of a deficit like last night and with SMC. it's important to always be within striking distance. For me though? I'm sticking with the frosh. Bad games happen. We won last year with Defense. Defense is the one thing we can control. I hope Few remembers.....just my opnion.

Zag79
02-03-2012, 10:16 AM
Agreed Abe, i fully expect to beat both BYU and SMC at home. Should be another fun and exciting finish!

sullyzag66
02-03-2012, 10:19 AM
We've lost 2 games in conference . SMC and BYU at their places.
We can correct both at our place. Why do I think so??

My take from last night was that we beat ourselves ...the first half anyway. The first half we lost by 14 pts. We lost that half with 15 of the 19 turnovers, poor defense, terrible 25% shooting, a sick PG and an overwhelming 22K hostile, out for blood crowd.
Harstock in particular went wild with nobody guarding him. Small wonder.

SO what changed to allow us to win the 2nd half by 4 pts. Several things.
Defense got lots better. Hart rolls in and contributed what he always does. Defense..Hartstock's rampage stopped. We only had 4 turnovers in the 2nd half. The crowd was taken out of it...and we did much better. Errant passing was reduced and out shooting picked up.

A big factor to remember is that we were down as much as 19 pts in a very hostile environment. I quite agree, our Frosh lilted under the crowd. BUT they played better and Carter finally showed up with some pts and leadership. Importantly our 3 bigs were outscored 43 -33. They took the night off mostly...clumsy, poor defense and marginal rebounding.

But to the point. If those things above can be corrected ( as they were in the 2nd half), does anyone doubt we can win those 2 big games at home in from of our crowd? I don't. SMC needs another loss besides from us. USD did us a nice favor last year. We need another from someone in our league. We go nowhere if we don't win at home though.

We're not out of it yet though. Hart's just SO important to this team. We cannot dig out of a deficit like last night and with SMC. it's important to always be within striking distance. For me though? I'm sticking with the frosh. Bad games happen. We won last year with Defense. Defense is the one thing we can control. I hope Few remembers.....just my opnion.
USF--spill on aisle 5.

75Zag
02-03-2012, 10:27 AM
Based on what I have seen, a split at home with SMC and BYU seems more likely than winning both games. Hope I am wrong, but the proof is in the playing as they say.

I am less concerned with the win - loss statistics than the overall quality of GU play in the past couple weeks. I was at the Portland game and GU stunk up the first half of that game just as badly as they stunk up the first half of the BYU game last night. The difference was that Portland did not have the horses to keep GU from roaring back in the 2nd half, whereas BYU did.

I am becoming more and more concerned about having 3 or 4 relatively short guards and the impact on the GU offense. All our guards have heart and soul and willpower, etc. but making passes to our front court in traffic requires that our guards be able to see our big men. I am less and less convinced that they can do so against quality size opponents.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

jazzdelmar
02-03-2012, 10:29 AM
byu played relaxed in the 2nd half. rose nearly called off the dogs. thats my view, doc. dont pat us on the back for a moral victory. yes they played better; could it have been any worse? davies sat out a lot, aboubo too. only carlino played as hard. no way it was a 10 pt game. be honest.

DixieZag
02-03-2012, 10:31 AM
Yeah, I can't put a rosy picture on this.

Each of your negatives- is a trend getting worse each game we play (win or lose) in conference and the fact that it gets a little better with all of our starters on the bench is no comfort to me. It will be easier at home, but enough to overcome teams that have blown us out?? I am not sure.

And, if the trend continues, we will definitely lose another away game in conference, maybe two. I am open to trending up, as soon as I see it.

jim77
02-03-2012, 10:37 AM
We've lost 2 games in conference . SMC and BYU at their places.
We can correct both at our place. Why do I think so??

My take from last night was that we beat ourselves ...the first half anyway. The first half we lost by 14 pts. We lost that half with 15 of the 19 turnovers, poor defense, terrible 25% shooting, a sick PG and an overwhelming 22K hostile, out for blood crowd.
Harstock in particular went wild with nobody guarding him. Small wonder.

SO what changed to allow us to win the 2nd half by 4 pts. Several things.
Defense got lots better. Hart rolls in and contributed what he always does. Defense..Hartstock's rampage stopped. We only had 4 turnovers in the 2nd half. The crowd was taken out of it...and we did much better. Errant passing was reduced and out shooting picked up.

A big factor to remember is that we were down as much as 19 pts in a very hostile environment. I quite agree, our Frosh lilted under the crowd. BUT they played better and Carter finally showed up with some pts and leadership. Importantly our 3 bigs were outscored 43 -33. They took the night off mostly...clumsy, poor defense and marginal rebounding.

But to the point. If those things above can be corrected ( as they were in the 2nd half), does anyone doubt we can win those 2 big games at home in from of our crowd? I don't. SMC needs another loss besides from us. USD did us a nice favor last year. We need another from someone in our league. We go nowhere if we don't win at home though.

We're not out of it yet though. Hart's just SO important to this team. We cannot dig out of a deficit like last night and with SMC. it's important to always be within striking distance. For me though? I'm sticking with the frosh. Bad games happen. We won last year with Defense. Defense is the one thing we can control. I hope Few remembers.....just my opnion.

Agreed Abe.

The freshmen are our future and we need to do more to help them...if they can't make it to the bigs then the bigs need to come to them....I saw very few screens set for our guards in the first half....Hart needs to be reinserted as a safety valve for them....and great defense.

ZagMan
02-03-2012, 10:40 AM
I am becoming more and more concerned about having 3 or 4 relatively short guards and the impact on the GU offense. All our guards have heart and soul and willpower, etc. but making passes to our front court in traffic requires that our guards be able to see our big men. I am less and less convinced that they can do so against quality size opponents.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

I'm not sure size matters that much when passing to the bigs at least. It matters in other areas, but passing isn't one of them at all. Have you seen how many great entry passes Stocks makes? He is the shortest of all our PG and makes some great feeds to the bigs. It takes court vision, not neccesarily size.

jim77
02-03-2012, 10:50 AM
I'm not sure size matters that much when passing to the bigs at least. It matters in other areas, but passing isn't one of them at all. Have you seen how many great entry passes Stocks makes? He is the shortest of all our PG and makes some great feeds to the bigs. It takes court vision, not neccesarily size.

Stocks is excellent for his size.....we still need more help for our guards. Where size really hurts is when the opposing team has 2 guys right in front of you're guys face....it matters then. How about setting a pick and allowing the guard to shake one off. I'd like to see Sam post up on the top of the key more too. The guards will be more relaxed if they know they got guys there.

75Zag
02-03-2012, 10:54 AM
I am no expert, but when it comes to guards I still think size matters. Matt B. and his size was a big help in games where GU needed to feed the ball inside against overwhelming defensive pressure. 5'11" guards get lost in the shuffle against good teams with length and strength and speed.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

jazzdelmar
02-03-2012, 10:57 AM
I am no expert, but when it comes to guards I still think size matters. Matt B. and his size was a big help in games where GU needed to feed the ball inside against overwhelming defensive pressure. 5'11" guards get lost in the shuffle against good teams with length and strength and speed.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!



5-11 would be nice. our guys look like smurfs. carlino towered over kp.

jimmy b
02-03-2012, 12:28 PM
we were in worse shape last year and after beating st. johns we were talking, with some believing, we were on our way to final four.

Its one game. I agree it looked terrible and I have same concerns as Jazz does all around, but we really were several 3's falling from making it a contest. And KP gets a pass IMO as he was ill this week

bigblahla
02-03-2012, 01:21 PM
We've lost 2 games in conference . SMC and BYU at their places.
We can correct both at our place. Why do I think so??

My take from last night was that we beat ourselves ...the first half anyway. The first half we lost by 14 pts. We lost that half with 15 of the 19 turnovers, poor defense, terrible 25% shooting, a sick PG and an overwhelming 22K hostile, out for blood crowd.
Harstock in particular went wild with nobody guarding him. Small wonder.

SO what changed to allow us to win the 2nd half by 4 pts. Several things.
Defense got lots better. Hart rolls in and contributed what he always does. Defense..Hartstock's rampage stopped. We only had 4 turnovers in the 2nd half. The crowd was taken out of it...and we did much better. Errant passing was reduced and out shooting picked up.

A big factor to remember is that we were down as much as 19 pts in a very hostile environment. I quite agree, our Frosh lilted under the crowd. BUT they played better and Carter finally showed up with some pts and leadership. Importantly our 3 bigs were outscored 43 -33. They took the night off mostly...clumsy, poor defense and marginal rebounding.

But to the point. If those things above can be corrected ( as they were in the 2nd half), does anyone doubt we can win those 2 big games at home in from of our crowd? I don't. SMC needs another loss besides from us. USD did us a nice favor last year. We need another from someone in our league. We go nowhere if we don't win at home though.

We're not out of it yet though. Hart's just SO important to this team. We cannot dig out of a deficit like last night and with SMC. it's important to always be within striking distance. For me though? I'm sticking with the frosh. Bad games happen. We won last year with Defense. Defense is the one thing we can control. I hope Few remembers.....just my opnion.

Like your thoughts Doc.

Go!! Zags!!!

NEC26
02-03-2012, 01:28 PM
I'm not sure size matters that much when passing to the bigs at least. It matters in other areas, but passing isn't one of them at all. Have you seen how many great entry passes Stocks makes? He is the shortest of all our PG and makes some great feeds to the bigs. It takes court vision, not neccesarily size.

Exactly.

cjm720
02-03-2012, 01:50 PM
Sure we can win out, but so can St. Mary's (except the game in Spokanistan).

The streak may end, but another streak will continue. All's still good...I just hope the team learns from this.

I think the most frustrating part about last night was the fact that with every turnover, every missed shot of ours, BYU got more and more confident (exactly the same at St. Mary's) to the point where every shot they took, they (and I) expected a bucket. We cannot give teams that type of confidence, especially in a road game.

CaliforniaZaggin'
02-03-2012, 01:53 PM
Before WCC play started, I thought the Zags would lose two conference games - @BYU & @SMC. I still feel that way. The boys will play next Thursday with the same hunger and agression that BYU had last night, and take down the Gaels. And I still think GU is better than BYU. If the two teams played ten times this season, last night's game would be the best result for BYU.

johno
02-03-2012, 02:45 PM
We had had a whole bunch of open threes last night. If we shot 30 percent, instead of 15 percent it would have been a whole lot closer, perhaps a victory. Yahoo has our season average at 37 percent.

Zag4Hire
02-03-2012, 03:08 PM
We've lost 2 games in conference . SMC and BYU at their places.
We can correct both at our place. Why do I think so??

You saw the crystal ball and knew this would happen yet everything will work itself out in the end right. ;) That is sincerely my belief as well.

Not to take it off track but look at a lot of the programs out there that have been great programs that are performing in awful fashion or seem to be in disarray. Nova, UCLA, Virginia Tech, Pitt (although doing well of late), Tennessee, Butler, even one of my fave mid-majors, Western Kentucky. You might want to include UConn. Some are systemic and some may just be a down year.

Look at Gonzaga and they have some solid wins: Notre Dame, Oral Bob (not too many mention them but they are 20-5, 12-1 in conf, Top 50 RPI), Arizona, and still get two more shots at big wins in SMC and BYU at home. GU has a solid coaching staff, a solid recruiting pipeline of domestic and foreign talent, and a young backcourt that will only get better. Plus some guns red shirting and Spangler is going to be a beast for years to come. We are in good hands.

bballbeachbum
02-03-2012, 03:08 PM
Stocks is excellent for his size.....we still need more help for our guards. Where size really hurts is when the opposing team has 2 guys right in front of you're guys face....it matters then. How about setting a pick and allowing the guard to shake one off. I'd like to see Sam post up on the top of the key more too. The guards will be more relaxed if they know they got guys there.

I agree

this team does not get many easy baskets

whether from transition off turnovers or rebounds

OR, speaking to the highlight above, from creating easy looks in the half court thru dribble penetration...it's not happening much.

Opposing teams must note this too, and have their guys right up in faces out there in the half court D, forcing the drive

bballbeachbum
02-03-2012, 03:17 PM
I'm basically with you Abe, and this team. Great challenge ahead, great tests

Reborn
02-03-2012, 03:39 PM
[QUOTE=75Zag;738402]The difference was that Portland did not have the horses to keep GU from roaring back in the 2nd half, whereas BYU did./QUOTE]

Its pretty amzing that GU scored 49 points in the second half against both Portland and BYU. Yes 49 points in the second half. I think it's becoming a bad habbit for the Zags to come out for games Flat. I hope the coaches address this tendency and try to fix it. Why can we score 49 points in the second half and like 22 or so in the first half while looking ugly and horrible. What are we doing differently in the second half. I noticed in both those games that Carter started in the second half? Maybe he should start.

I also think Dower has been playing better in the second half of games. Why? One think I notice is that he doesnt play as well when he plays the 4. He is definitely a better low post player.

Zag79
02-03-2012, 03:54 PM
This was the third game out of the last four that Carter has come in and made things happen. I never thought he should have lost his spot, and agree he should get it back. You can always make a substitution if need be, but some continuity in the starting line up and minutes played would sure be nice.

maynard g krebs
02-03-2012, 04:06 PM
The height of guards is really a very small factor in passing ability. Sure it helped Magic and Oscar, but from Cousy to John S, the majority of great passing guards in the history of the game have been guys in the 6'0 to 6'2 range or so. Bigger guards can see over the top, but the small guys make up for it with quicker lateral movement; i.e they can see around them rather than over them. And it's more about vision and anticipation anyway.

MaroonZag22
02-03-2012, 04:13 PM
davies sat out a lot, aboubo too. only carlino played as hard. no way it was a 10 pt game. be honest.

For the record Jazz, those two sat out so much because of foul trouble. It's hard to play when a simple bump could give you your 5th foul and force you out of the game.

SunDevilGolfZag
02-03-2012, 04:39 PM
I hope this team can learn to show up and win big games. Need to play better at home v. BYU and St. Mary's than we did against MSU. Nowhere to go but up; I hope we can do it or we'll have to win out in a tough conference tourney to avoid the NIT.

jazzdelmar
02-03-2012, 06:10 PM
For the record Jazz, those two sat out so much because of foul trouble. It's hard to play when a simple bump could give you your 5th foul and force you out of the game.

so? for whatever reason they sat and the zags played agst subs....makes my point anyway....rose had his foot off the pedal.

NEC26
02-03-2012, 06:18 PM
so? for whatever reason they sat and the zags played agst subs....makes my point anyway....rose had his foot off the pedal.

They were in foul trouble do to a very aggressive d that for the first half rattled the players. I don't think they will be rattled at home and having already played them once.
We will see what happens but in my opinion we will beat them at home and I wouldn't be surprised if we won by a decent margin.

Baseline
02-03-2012, 08:12 PM
Went back and watched a couple OOC games, in my opinion the zags are going backward. The ball movement isn't as good, they don't get it to the bigs, the screens are fewer and not as good and the shooting, don't know where it went.
The team should be jelling and coming into tournament form, but I see disarray. I'm not a physiology guy, but it almost seems like there is something wrong, but we keep hearing how close they are as a group.

Zag79
02-03-2012, 08:34 PM
No set rotation. I know I'm beating a dead horse, but who really plays 11 (yes, ELEVEN) players this late in the season?! :roll: That alone is our issue. Pick a starting five that will start every game. Decide who the first two off the bench will be, possibly an 8th man if necessary. Get the ball to your best players, and have them shoot most of the shots. Hell, even in rec league you need some stability. The worst teams are those that play a zillion different guys each game, and its a free for all shooting the rock which reminds me of this years team. Carter plays 6 minutes one game, 30 the next. Hart was a starter and glue guy, then doesn't play for three games. Edi scores 15 in 26 minutes, then plays five against BYU. Hard to get in a groove or any rhythm when you don't know when or how much your going to play. From this couch coach it'd look something like this.

Pangos - David
Bell - Carter
Hart - Carter or Guy
Harris - Dower
Sacre - Dower

The way that's set up you always have your best players logging the most minutes, and are still getting plenty of time for key contributors off the bench.