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LongIslandZagFan
02-03-2012, 08:41 AM
First half... 15 TOs resulting in 18 points for BYU
7 BYU TOs resulting in 5 points for GU
BYU +13 in points off TOs... +14 score in BYUs favor

Second half... 4 TOs resulting in 4 points for BYU
5 BYU TOs resulting in 6 points for GU

GU +2 in points off TOs... +4 in score in GUs favor.

Points to take away... Obviously Few made adjustments because second half was radically different.... But points off TOs differential is eerily close to final score differential. Btw the TO distribution was from almost everyone in the first half.

Just food for thought. More food for thought... Team averages 13 TOs a game... They surpassed that in the first half.

Zag@LMU
02-03-2012, 08:50 AM
Our 13 TO/G is also 140th in the nation.

raise the zag
02-03-2012, 08:52 AM
Excellent post, LIZF.

Thanks for the reminder & the stats.

Interesting the "adjustments" were, once again, more Marquise Carter & David Stockton in clutch moments, pressure play, or road games.

Pangos has been very mediocre away from Spokane, which is normal development for a Freshman. I'm fine with this...

Love me some KP, yet in high-stakes games(Mich St, Illinois, @Portland, BYU) a dose of Carter and/or Stockton have been the more composed, poised, and confident guard. One or two or both have been our saving grace.

I feel Coach Few is beginning to realize this...

Also, Mike Hart made an appearance and played smart ball in limited mins, which is more than Edi can say in same amount of minutes.

Anyway, just mentioning the adjustments Few made.

Chicken Ball
02-03-2012, 08:52 AM
But here's why the second half isn't a big comfort: they played well only when Sacre, Pangos, and Harris were on the bench. If we can't play well with those guys in the game, we're in big trouble. And,f rankly, since St. Mary's Harris is the only one of the three who's been playing well. And even he was awful last night.

75Zag
02-03-2012, 08:56 AM
Unfortunate loss, but "stuff" happens. My primary concern was how scared and rattled the younger/ newer GU players looked (excluding Stockton and Gary Bell). Still hoping for selfish reasons to see GU in Portland in March, but I do not see this team as ready to make a deep run in the Tournament.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

raise the zag
02-03-2012, 08:58 AM
I thought our game plan vs BYU's zone was magnificent, yet our BIGS couldn't take advantage underneath.

The play where we got the ball to Dower/Sacre just 2 feet from the hoop was outstanding, yet either Sacre couldn't hold on or Dower was fading away too much...it killed our momentum in 1st half. Two wide-open missed dunks by Big Rob, I mean really? Dower played well down the stretch, but this was a game he could have had 25 pts as they allowed him to go left and one-on-one most of the time. Same with Elias.

We'd run a nice offensive set, get the ball to the right place, then miss & miss & miss again. Shooting around 20% in 1st half will do that to you.

Dower said it best:


I dont think were coming into these road games with the right mindset, Dower said. Were being the hunted instead of being the hunters. We have to change our mindset.

LongIslandZagFan
02-03-2012, 08:59 AM
Our 13 TO/G is also 140th in the nation.

It's also lower than the usual 14 it has been over the last 10 years. In fact only 1 season has it very been less than 13. And bring down the average just one half of a turnover and the ranking jumps into the 50s.

LongIslandZagFan
02-03-2012, 09:01 AM
Excellent post, LIZF.

Thanks for the reminder & the stats.

Interesting the "adjustments" were, once again, more Marquise Carter & David Stockton in clutch moments, pressure play, or road games.

Pangos has been very mediocre away from Spokane, which is normal development for a Freshman. I'm fine with this...

Love me some KP, yet in high-stakes games(Mich St, Illinois, @Portland, BYU) a dose of Carter and/or Stockton have been the more composed, poised, and confident guard. One or two or both have been our saving grace.

I feel Coach Few is beginning to realize this...

Also, Mike Hart made an appearance and played smart ball in limited mins, which is more than Edi can say in same amount of minutes.

Anyway, just mentioning the adjustments Few made.

Btw for all the love Carter has gotten.. He contributed 4 of the 15 TOs in the first half.

DixieZag
02-03-2012, 09:09 AM
I can't put any positive spin on this whatsoever, and I expected us to lose last night - predicted it, but the WAY we lost is highly disturbing.

In "big" games versus MSU, Illinois, UP - - Stockton and Carter saved our bacon??? We lost 2 of those and Portland has only beaten 7 teams this year.

What I see is stats like 15 TOs in the first half and 1/15 3 pt shooting and the change to a Zone defense paying dividends too late to do any good - as a pattern in each of our losses, a pattern getting worse in the last month even in games we have won and a pattern that seems far from being fixed.

-I think we were intimidated - just like at SMC.
-I think we are now a very poor 3 point shooting team and one dimensional offensively. Watch any other college BB game, teams are regularly making 5-8 3 pt shots, that would be a total barrage for us right now, and we are getting worse.


I think there are some real patterns that are emerging, which were in a pretty long thread last night, now attached to the Game Thread and the trash heap of history (pretty weak mods) and I think this team is going in the wrong direction.

IrishZagFan
02-03-2012, 09:24 AM
LIZF adding a touch of "the voice of reason" in his posts. Very nice, and always, always, appreciate the research done. :clap: :clap:

zag944
02-03-2012, 09:38 AM
Im glad Few stuck with Carter through most of the game, because he made some pretty putrid TOs early. Marquise seems to be the guy that finds us baskets when our scoring isnt happening. Never stopped hustling either. Im really impressed by how much of a leader he still plays like, despite being understandably frustrated with his shot.

Zag79
02-03-2012, 09:52 AM
Im glad Few stuck with Carter through most of the game, because he made some pretty putrid TOs early. Marquise seems to be the guy that finds us baskets when our scoring isnt happening. Never stopped hustling either. Im really impressed by how much of a leader he still plays like, despite being understandably frustrated with his shot.

+1... Carter had 4 to's but was the only guy who wasn't afraid to just take the ball to the rack. Turnovers hurt, but a guy shooting 2 for 10 with no turnovers is just as detrimental. I like what MC brings to the table, and think his rise in PT is justified.

cjm720
02-03-2012, 09:54 AM
Im glad Few stuck with Carter through most of the game, because he made some pretty putrid TOs early. Marquise seems to be the guy that finds us baskets when our scoring isnt happening. Never stopped hustling either. Im really impressed by how much of a leader he still plays like, despite being understandably frustrated with his shot.

+1

DixieZag
02-03-2012, 09:56 AM
Watch it with the mod criticizing, or a red square with a snarky comment might appear in your reputation section.

Mods are human too, treat them with the respect you would a person in line at the grocery store, they are grown-ups - a little questioning comment occassionally does not hurt anything. They do a tough job and have to maintain a decorum set by others (Spokesman) so, I feel fine with a gentle "huh?" from time to time.

ZagsObserver
02-03-2012, 10:00 AM
Carter averages nearly as many turnovers as he does assists. I hardly think he's the answer. He's also shooting a whopping 12% from three and 30-something overall. I'd like to be drinking the kool-aid, but the fact is we have a deficit at the three spot. I'd take hart over Keita and carter any day.

Zag79
02-03-2012, 10:12 AM
Carter averages nearly as many turnovers as he does assists. I hardly think he's the answer. He's also shooting a whopping 12% from three and 30-something overall. I'd like to be drinking the kool-aid, but the fact is we have a deficit at the three spot. I'd take hart over Keita and carter any day.

So does GBJ. Not only that, Carter is much better at rebounding and stealing the ball than Gary. 48% shooting to 38% is one more shot made per ten taken, not much considering neither player shoots even 10 times a game. MC is a two on any team, trying to put him as a three makes this team awful small. Carter is actually much more helpful than he is a weakness, its not his fault we don't have a great option at the three.

zag944
02-03-2012, 10:24 AM
Carter's statistics are somewhat skewed toward the bad due to his forcing it when he didnt need to earlier in the season.
He's letting the game come to him more now. When the team does need to force the issue, he seems to be one of the best at finding us some baskets amidst the chaos.

LongIslandZagFan
02-03-2012, 10:27 AM
Wasn't necessarily knocking Marquise... The team as a whole stunk up the joint in the first half... Wish they had a stat for unforced TOs... Seemed to see a lot of them in the first half.

GeorgiaZagFan
02-03-2012, 10:32 AM
...have KILLED us in the two biggest roads games of the year!!
AT St.Marys the score was tied at 29 with about 3 minutes to go and the Gaels closed out the half on an 8-0 run and never looked back. IF the Zags play solid during that time and stay even...it is a whole different game.
AT BYU the Cougars were up 7 with 3 minutes to go in the first half. They finished on a 9-2 run for a 14 point half time lead. IF the Zags play better to close out the half and are only down 5-7 points ...it is a whole different ball game.

Zag
02-03-2012, 10:33 AM
Searching for a "3" is not a good strategy for this team. The zags should run a three guard offense, so if executed properly other teams will then have to adjust to GU. A good "3" wouldn't have solved the issues with last nights game.

I don't think that BYU has a good "3" that was burning us. Hartsock(slow/big/more of a "4") carried them along with their point guard("1"?) who didn't have to deal with any help defense when he drove the lane. An athletic 3 isn't needed for either of those guys. Harris should be able to shut Hartsock down, he just didn't do it last night.

The same thing can be said for a St. Mary's match up. St. Mary's strength is guards and big guys. We have both of those, so it is just defensive execution that is missing. Good news is that can improve.

PS. I've said this already today. Sacre played good against Davies in the post. I saw Rob regularly push him off the block and force difficult shots. Rob is still a force on D against any big man.

jazzdelmar
02-03-2012, 10:36 AM
dont do that. dont reach for a moral victory. rose all but called of the dogs in the 2nd half. cept he pushed the pedal after the zags made their first run to 11. davies and abuou sat a lot. only carlino stayed strong.......moral victories are for little league.

Ezag
02-03-2012, 01:00 PM
The other frustrating part was that BYU really didn't play well and was very very beatable. Unfortunately we were just a little bit worse.

Zag79
02-03-2012, 01:06 PM
Exactly. 44% shooting, and your up 14 at half?! Yikes. To me that's what makes the loss that much worse, BYU didn't beat us as much as we gave them the game. Can't wait for the rematch in Spokane!

cjm720
02-03-2012, 01:19 PM
The other frustrating part was that BYU really didn't play well and was very very beatable. Unfortunately we were just a little bit worse.

A little? A bit of an understatement LOL. We had ample opportuntities to right the ship but nerves or whatever didn't allow for it.

webspinnre
02-03-2012, 01:29 PM
A little? A bit of an understatement LOL. We had ample opportuntities to right the ship but nerves or whatever didn't allow for it.

Indeed. I've got no trouble saying that the first half was one of the worst halves of basketball I've ever seen from the Zags.

cjm720
02-03-2012, 01:33 PM
Indeed. I've got no trouble saying that the first half was one of the worst halves of basketball I've ever seen from the Zags.

I must have said that 20 times last night...the funny thing is, as crappy as we played I still think we could have won that game...just needed a few more minutes :)

JPtheBeasta
02-03-2012, 03:35 PM
Some consolation I took from this game was that despite all of the turnovers, and poor low-post play by our leaders, in a hostile environment, we hung tight and made a couple of good runs at it. If we shoot an average percent from 3 we are in it and are in a place to try to win it at the end. I don't know how much the recent illnesses of some our guys effected the play, but it doesn't really matter. I know we have a good, solid core of players and the future is still bright. I am skeptical about a deep NCAA tournament run at this point, but will enjoy every minute of it.

And yes, I totally agree that the turnovers killed us, and thanks LIZF for the objective data.

ZagLawGrad
02-03-2012, 04:43 PM
17-4 works for me.

Reason? I didn't have high expectations for this team from the beginning of hthe season. Too young, and too unrealistic to expect a couple of frosh to shoulder the burden of a deep run.

But then again, who knows?

Baseline
02-03-2012, 09:14 PM
The teams backs are against the wall. I think SMC will go undefeated, so we are playing for second place and a bid to the tournament. Not sure 3rd place will go. I want to see real fire in these guys, like they think it counts, right now I'm not sure that's the case. I think this is way to good a team for whats happening.

We have guys that have good games, but no one ever seems to go off?