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CDC84
01-27-2012, 09:54 AM
Guy Landry Edi is still way behind when it comes to his understanding of the offense and where to be on the floor. I distinctly remember one instance in the second half where Edi and Pangos were on one side of the floor and Few was going crazy on the sidelines trying to get Guy to just move. People can say Mike Hart contributes nothing on offense, but Mike knows where to be. He sets a great screen and ruthlessly crashes the offensive glass. Especially on long rebounds. When I say this, I'm not suggesting that Mike should start ahead of Guy. But what I am saying is that the offense just hasn't gotten any better with Guy being in there. At least so far.

Speaking of Guy, he needs serious, I mean serious work on his foul shooting. His form is horrible and he misses badly. It's a different deal from Elias Harris where it's more of a mental thing. Guy needs work.

One of the items that nobody is talking about that is also hurting the offense is Pangos' recent shooting woes. For as great as Pangos has been, he's only shot 26% from 3 point territory the last 8 games. I would like to see Few get Gary Bell Jr. more shots from 3 since he is proving to be GU's most consistent perimeter shooter.

Gonzaga had too many guys gambling on defense last night. I counted at least 12 points that were the result of Gonzaga players leaving their man wide open after a failed steal attempt. What particularly hurts is when the perimeters do this resulting in uncontested 3 point shots.

If Gary Bell Jr. keeps improving at the rate he is right now, he could end up being the greatest all around guard that Mark Few has ever coached.....either as a head coach or an assistant. I keep expecting him to hit a wall, and it just hasn't happened. GBJ has all of the basketball IQ, shooting touch and killer instinct of the great Gonzaga guards of the past, but he brings another dimension due to his quickness, athleticism and defensive ability. He took a pass from Pangos last night to finish off a break where he just absolutely blew by his defender in a way that Dan Dickau couldn't dream of. I mean, he's not an insane athlete, but he's above average for sure. He'll never have the floor vision and passing ability of a guy like Stepp or Bouldin, but even that phase of his game is improving. I just wish, wish, wish, wish he were 3 or 4 inches taller. His height is his only long term weakness, but that really isn't an issue at this level.

zag944
01-27-2012, 09:56 AM
Speaking of Guy, he needs serious, I mean serious work on his foul shooting. His form is horrible and he misses badly. It's a different deal from Elias Harris where it's more of a mental thing. Guy needs work.



His routine leading into the shot is ridiculous. I cant imagine how one could have any concentration or balance going into it like that.

TacomaZAG
01-27-2012, 10:01 AM
WAY too much gambling on defense last night, we just need to play solid D and keep the wide open shots (especially 3's) to a minimum.

With respect to GBJ, I'm right with you. He has continued to impress and seems to get better every game. I agree that he should look for his shot more, especially that 3 from the top of the key and slashing to the hoop.

Regarding Pangos recent woes from behind the arc, I wish he had a better average as well, but he needs to keep firing when he's open. After all......Shooters Shoot. We're going to need those shots to drop in Provo and against SMC in the Kennel.

Go ZAGS

tobizag
01-27-2012, 10:01 AM
One of the items that nobody is talking about that is also hurting the offense is Pangos' recent shooting woes. For as great as Pangos has been, he's only shot 26% from 3 point territory the last 8 games. I would like to see Few get Gary Bell Jr. more shots from 3 since he is proving to be GU's most consistent perimeter shooter.


If Gary Bell Jr. keeps improving at the rate he is right now, he could end up being the greatest all around guard that Mark Few has ever coached.....either as a head coach or an assistant. I keep expecting him to hit a wall, and it just hasn't happened. GBJ has all of the basketball IQ, shooting touch and killer instinct of the great Gonzaga guards of the past, but he brings another dimension due to his quickness, athleticism and defensive ability. He took a pass from Pangos last night to finish off a break where he just absolutely blew by his defender in a way that Dan Dickau couldn't dream of. I mean, he's not an insane athlete, but he's above average for sure. He'll never have the floor vision and passing ability of a guy like Stepp or Bouldin, but even that phase of his game is improving. I just wish, wish, wish, wish he were 3 or 4 inches taller. His height is his only long term weakness, but that really isn't an issue at this level.

all due respect to kevin, love the guy, but if not for his outburst vs wsu, would we really be having this conversation? imo, bell has been the best player on our team for the season. it's sort of astonishing that he came in here as an offensive beast out of high school, and now people act surprised when he scores. this is the guy that once put up 55 in a game as a sophomore! i think given the recent cold streak, it's time to start relying less on pangos' outside shot and more on bell's all around skill.

to me he is the most complete player on the team, hands down. give him the rock where he is most effective...coming off screens for 3's and slashing without the ball to the basket.

awberke
01-27-2012, 10:20 AM
all due respect to kevin, love the guy, but if not for his outburst vs wsu, would we really be having this conversation? imo, bell has been the best player on our team for the season. it's sort of astonishing that he came in here as an offensive beast out of high school, and now people act surprised when he scores. this is the guy that once put up 55 in a game as a sophomore! i think given the recent cold streak, it's time to start relying less on pangos' outside shot and more on bell's all around skill.

to me he is the most complete player on the team, hands down. give him the rock where he is most effective...coming off screens for 3's and slashing without the ball to the basket.

Pangos is still shooting 38.1% from three in conference play, i'd say thats pretty acceptable as a freshman point guard.

I wouldn't want to force anything on GBJ, he is advancing almost every game we play. He makes very very few mistakes and takes good shots.

I also disagree that bell has been the best player on the team. Pangos is handling the ball for the better part of 32mpg and has an A/T of 2, that's damn good for a freshman PG. Not to mention hitting clutch shots/FT's.

Pangos stats: 13.3ppg, 3.5 apg, 2.7 rpg, 1.15spg. Those are crazy stats for a freshman.

raise the zag
01-27-2012, 10:24 AM
I would like to see Few get Gary Bell Jr. more shots from 3 since he is proving to be GU's most consistent perimeter shooter.


Agree with everything said, CDC. Good post and astute observations, as always.

I agree its silly to watch Pangos attempt 5+ 3pt shots every game, and Gary Bell go 1-1 or 2-3 each game. It some ways, it should be the other way around.

We double-screen for Pangos on off-the-ball plays, yet never for GBJ. Ball-sreen, yes, and Pangos sets Gary up nicely on many occasion, yet Bell should be one of the Top-2 options, imo. Its just not happening, yet.

He's the key to beating SMC this year too.

awberke
01-27-2012, 10:28 AM
Agree with everything said, CDC. Good post and astute observations, as always.

I agree its silly to watch Pangos attempt 5+ 3pt shots every game, and Gary Bell go 1-1 or 2-3 each game. It some ways, it should be the other way around.

We double-screen for Pangos on off-the-ball plays, yet never for GBJ. Ball-sreen, yes, and Pangos sets Gary up nicely on many occasion, yet Bell should be one of the Top-2 options, imo. Its just not happening, yet.

He's the key to beating SMC this year too.

I think that's exactly the problem, is the staff maybe be telling Kevin to shoot more. Gary takes good 3pt shots, every time. He doesn't force them. You tell him he needs to shoot more and ultimately he becomes inefficient.

Look at my post above though, kevin is still shooting 38.1% on the year and in conference. That's a good percentage.

CDC84
01-27-2012, 10:34 AM
Pangos tends to be streaky as a shooter. Go back and look at his game log. I mean, it's just a minor criticism on my part.

Unfortunately he got some bad breaks last night from the rim. A couple of those shots were going in the hole and just rimmed out.

2wiceright
01-27-2012, 10:38 AM
I think that's exactly the problem, is the staff maybe be telling Kevin to shoot more. Gary takes good 3pt shots, every time. He doesn't force them. You tell him he needs to shoot more and ultimately he becomes inefficient.

Look at my post above though, kevin is still shooting 38.1% on the year and in conference. That's a good percentage.

+1

zag67
01-27-2012, 10:41 AM
I think that both GB and Kevin are doing a great job. Did Kevin have a bad night at the 3 point line? Yes. Were they bad shots? No. How about the shots of Harris and Sacre under the basket (at the beginning of the game)? They missed almost all of them. But as the game went on Kevin made driving shots when he realized that his 3 point shot is not working. Harris and Sacre really attacked the boards and did some great shots. GB just played a super solid game and took the shots that were given him.

In reality, we do not want ANY of our players forcing shots. I do think that the bigs might have tried too hard in the beginning, but settled down. I also think that the refs did something about making us look as bad as we did during the first half. I think that this group of players (and coaches) is doing a super job of allowing whoever the opposing team does not defend, to be the man for the day. I think that Portland did not expect Carter to take over as good as he did and this then freed up GB and Kevin as the game went on.

BobZag
01-27-2012, 10:45 AM
This is the lowest-scoring Zag team in over ten years, and might have the worst FG % of any Zag team in the last decade.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2250/gonzaga-bulldogs

Check for yourself.

john montana
01-27-2012, 10:49 AM
both Pangos and Bell should always be hunting for shots.

CDC84
01-27-2012, 10:53 AM
This is the lowest-scoring Zag team in over ten years, and might have the worst FG % of any Zag team in the last decade.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bask...nzaga-bulldogs

Check for yourself.

It's crazy to think that despite all this, the team is 17-3. The culture of winning has just carried this team along.

LongIslandZagFan
01-27-2012, 11:00 AM
This is the lowest-scoring Zag team in over ten years, and might have the worst FG % of any Zag team in the last decade.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2250/gonzaga-bulldogs

Check for yourself.

True, but is there really that much of a difference between 46 and 48%

raise the zag
01-27-2012, 11:06 AM
True, but is there really that much of a difference between 46 and 48%

I see your point, yet it translates into an offensive gap.

For instance, the Zags have averaged b/w 77-79 ppg the last few seasons; however, we're barely averaging 74 ppg this season.

It creates a difference of nearly 5 ppg via the lower shooting % based on # of attempts. We've lost two games this season by 7 pts, so it becomes an interesting stat to consider...

Having said that, it doesn't account for our defensive improvements this yr, just strictly speaking about offense.

Zag4Hire
01-27-2012, 11:12 AM
This is the lowest-scoring Zag team in over ten years, and might have the worst FG % of any Zag team in the last decade.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2250/gonzaga-bulldogs

Check for yourself.

I take it in consideration with offensive output. Holy smokes, 03-04 is off the charts: 82 PPG, 51% FG, 40%3PT, 4 players in double figures PPG.

Also another concern is the switch in emphasis: I think the more recent teams have had more of a focus on the frontcourt along with more intensity on defense. The Cardiac Zags of a few years ago would put up points left and right but every team they played still had a shot to win.

realtydog
01-27-2012, 11:33 AM
Pangos at 38% in conference---throw it up kid---I know that after missing four in a row he may make his next five---love both GBJ and KP

rennis
01-27-2012, 11:39 AM
Our low FG% this year isn't the guard's fault, it's squarely on the Big's, who are not having a good year overall offensively. At all.

Just_An_Old_Zag
01-27-2012, 11:42 AM
CDC get out of my head you are reading my thoughts exactly

webspinnre
01-27-2012, 12:23 PM
This is the lowest-scoring Zag team in over ten years, and might have the worst FG % of any Zag team in the last decade.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2250/gonzaga-bulldogs

Check for yourself.

Is there a good place we could check these same stats defensively? Kenpom is subscription now, so I can't check. I've got to say that this feels like one of our top defensive teams.

siliconzag
01-27-2012, 12:31 PM
at the beginning of the year, that our traditional strength, that being offense, would have taken the obvious downward turn that it has. The numbers do not lie, either in terms of shooting percentage, nor offensive productivity. It is not just free throw shooting, it is field goal percentage, and assists. This is not something I would have anticipated from a Mark Few team. Lack of defensive intensity and discipline, that I would have expected. Truthfully, the defense has been incrementally better this year. It seems to me that turn overs are also up and offensive rebounds are not as high as they need to be with so many missed shots. Part of the issue with the "stew" is that the pieces aren't hot enough. We are missing shots, and we are not making crisp passes to boot. Guys look tenative and seem to lack confidence. There is not good spacing and separation on the floor. Improved ball movement can produce better looks and improved 3 point shooting, assuming screens are being set (something that also is not being done well). Too bad that Elias doesn't take more three shots as well, this could open things up (like McDermott does at Creighton). One of the things I've noticed about most of the really good teams is they have at least two very good 3 point guys on the floor most of the game. I keep hearing the true believers predict that we are going to extract our revenge against St. Mary's. Maybe so, but there is nothing but wishful thinking and historical precedent right now that supports that kind of optimism. Home courts might make a 7 point difference, which still leaves us short by 7 points the way I figure it.

As to the question as to why we are 17-3, our schedule while it appeared to be tough, wasn't as much as we thought. Xavier is losing frequently (most recently to Dayton, a good team, but...) and Arizona is struggling to stay afloat. Perhaps our best victory was against Oral Roberts ironically. Some of our "prestigious wins" are becoming less so as time goes on. Except ND of course with their recent victory over Syracuse and ministreak.

I agree with those who have identified the absense of an offensive threat from the wing as a problem, as well as our inconsistent post play. Not sure that can be tidied up this year, and there better be a lot of coachin and skill development going on between now and Ground Hogs Day and the Saturday following. Whenever teams who lack offensive reliability fire up the defense to a much higher level, good things happen. I think paradoxically the thing that will help the Zags is to work on what has become one of their strenghts (with the exception of the St. Mary's game), that being the defense. I am not throwing in the towel, but I no longer believe that this team is destined for Portland and a favorable seed let alone another conference championship.

Sili

ZagAddict
01-27-2012, 12:54 PM
Gary Bell Jr. just continues to amaze... the coaching staff needs to keep encouraging him to take it to the hole as well of hit his outside shots when open. He is the most complete player we have on the court. As a freshman, I see him as a special player that won't hit the so-called wall.

Pangos is hanging tough, but he has definitely hit some kind of wall. Whether it is a solid concrete wall 18" thick or a flimsy plywood wall he can break through is yet to be seen. I think a week off before the BYU game is going to be big for him.

As freshman, we shouldn't be expecting these guys to carry the load for a conference championship and chance to play deep in March. Sacre and Harris need to step up and show there leadership as upperclassmen. These youngsters are going to need a lot of encouragement and support on the court to keep the offense going.

Zag79
01-27-2012, 12:54 PM
I agree Pangos has been the better overall player. He runs the team, quite a feat for a freshman alone. Not only that, GBJ isn't a good rebounder or passer as indicated by his stats. His scoring comes in bursts, sometimes he's non existent for halves at a time. I would like to see him be more assertive to start, anhe improve his rebounding and vision. He will be a great Zag, maybe one of the best ever. But right now Pangos is easily as good if not better. This is where i would like to see more of Carter, sometimes i wonder if the frosh are running out of gas. Regardless, its a good problem to have and the future is bright.

VinnyZag
01-27-2012, 01:02 PM
@CDC: no, it's good that he's not three or four inches taller. If he were, he'd be playing at North Carolina or Kentucky.

@webspinrre: I have a kenpom subscription, and while I don't believe you can track these things game-by-game there, I can tell you that GU's defensive efficiency has been plummeting the last few weeks. Offensive efficiency, too. GU doesn't look as good in tempo-free stats as is did a month ago.

Zag79
01-27-2012, 01:14 PM
This is the lowest-scoring Zag team in over ten years, and might have the worst FG % of any Zag team in the last decade.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2250/gonzaga-bulldogs

Check for yourself.

Not only that, for all the talk about our defense it's the worst its been in five years.

http://http://www.teamrankings.com/ncaa-basketball/stat/opponent-points-per-game

jazzdelmar
01-27-2012, 01:28 PM
IF the three smurfs were 6-4 or better then Bell would be at Duke, Pangos at Cuse and Stocks at GU.... for only a year.....chew on that. careful what u wish for

raise the zag
01-27-2012, 01:38 PM
IF the three smurfs were 6-4 or better then Bell would be at Duke, Pangos at Cuse and Stocks at GU.... for only a year.....chew on that. careful what u wish for

Exactly.

awberke
01-27-2012, 02:22 PM
IF the three smurfs were 6-4 or better then Bell would be at Duke, Pangos at Cuse and Stocks at GU.... for only a year.....chew on that. careful what u wish for

And if they were 2 feet shorter they would all be elves in the christmas commercials...what if statements are pretty worthless.

caduceus
01-27-2012, 02:44 PM
The offensive stats of this year's team are a bit deceiving. Scoring is down, but number of possessions per game is also way down (67.2, the lowest by FAR going back to 1996). The low possessions may be in part to playing better defense (opponents going deeper into shot clock), play style of our scheduled opponents, or some other factor. It appears to be a national trend though, for which I haven't found a good explanation.

On the other hand, points per possession (1.1) is roughly the same as it's been in the Few era. The reason for this is FREE THROW RATE. The Zags rank 4th in the nation at getting to the FT line. We are simply getting more points through free throws. The Zags go to the line almost double, on average, than our opponents, and FT's account for a full quarter of our scoring (only 11 teams in the nation have a bigger chunk of their scoring from FT's).

The downside of this is that there is some reliance on the refs to call the fouls so we can actually get to the line. So far, it's working though.

I agree with the comments about GBJ, he's a star and he has high potential to be the straw that stirs the drink.

I have to disagree with the "concern" about Pangos and the three. Although Pangos' 3-point shooting is down of late, I wouldn't change a thing in terms of him taking treys. Although the statistics show he's missing, he is just SO CLOSE. A huge number of his misses are halfway down the hoop and then rim out. I personally feel he'll overcome this with more attempts. I doubt Few is concerned about this aspect of his game (and I'll bet he's nailing them at a ridiculous rate in practice). I don't think the WSU performance was as much a fluke as some are thinking. Defenses are on to him, but sooner or later I'll bet he's going to go off again. Just my opinion.

CDC84
01-27-2012, 03:16 PM
As Few says, anytime Pangos takes a 3 it's a good shot.

JPtheBeasta
01-27-2012, 04:34 PM
@CDC: no, it's good that he's not three or four inches taller. If he were, he'd be playing at North Carolina or Kentucky.

@webspinrre: I have a kenpom subscription, and while I don't believe you can track these things game-by-game there, I can tell you that GU's defensive efficiency has been plummeting the last few weeks. Offensive efficiency, too. GU doesn't look as good in tempo-free stats as is did a month ago.

Just wondering if that correlates with Rob's injury? The WCC also knows our tendencies and things we like to do, so perhaps this is a result of WCC play?

jazzdelmar
01-27-2012, 05:52 PM
And if they were 2 feet shorter they would all be elves in the christmas commercials...what if statements are pretty worthless.

what does that have to do with the price of apricots?

zagfan1
01-27-2012, 06:21 PM
I liked Few's line up last night personally. What I am thinking is that you need to give Landry and Carter time to work out the kinks if you want to have a very succesful NCAA tournament performance. Few should yell at Landry until he gets it right. I saw Carter starting to get that spark again. Thank goodness its like about time for him. He was getting more comfortable out there and I could tell the switch was starting to flip. I believe Hart is not the key for the Zags and should not get as many minutes going forward. Hart is good as a 7th or 8th guy off the bench. We need both Landry and Carter to consume the minutes at the small forward spot if we want to have any shot of making it really far into the tournament. With that said, I recognize what Hart has done for the team and his determination. But we can't be going 4 against 5 on the court on offense. Last night, despite the mistakes, we saw a 5 man offense in motion. Lets keep it up and build off of that. I like Few's current mode of thinking and hope it continues. I also was happy with Pangos. I just love those floaters that he banks off the glass and into the basket. That is hard to do!

tobizag
01-27-2012, 06:25 PM
to clarify, i never said kevin should shoot less. i said we should rely on his shooting less. as we stand right now, as was plainly evident last night, we tend to really struggle to score when pangs isn't hitting 3's. his 3 pointer seems to be our 1st or 2nd option on offense. i'd like to see more focus on getting bell looks that leverage his skill, and continue urging pangos to shoot when open. for me it's a shift of focus that is warranted.

jagwalkley
01-28-2012, 01:00 PM
Every one of us would love to see us in a final 4. We do need a go to guy,but not a ball hog,like most of the U. of W. Bell just may turn out to be a little Oscar Robertson.Lets dream a little. He has a great upside,no doubt.