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Angelo Roncalli
12-12-2011, 11:32 AM
Former Xavier coach Sean Miller weighs in on Saturday's brawl and aftermath. Says Miller of his former players and their "toughness":


Criminal charges are possible in the aftermath of the Xavier-Cincinnati brawl, after which Sean Miller supported his former team.
"If Cincinnati tries to do what they did (Saturday) they're going to get a fight," Miller said after UA beat Clemson on Saturday. "So I'm proud of those guys."
Miller went on to say he hopes Xavier wins the rest of their games -- except that he wouldn't comment when it faces Dayton and Miller's brother, Archie.
"They have a chance to win it all," Miller said. "It's just such a great story. I'm really proud of those guys and I watch them any time that I can. No one's going to bully those guys."


Read more: http://azstarnet.com/sports/blogs/pascoe/wildcats-miller-supports-xavier-after-brawl/article_de9b079e-24ec-11e1-8392-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz1gM2iEF6b


Sean, better to keep your mouth shut and have people suspect you might be an idiot than open it and give them empirical proof.

Timeout!
12-12-2011, 11:34 AM
Sean Miller, former Xavier coach and current Arizona Coach, defends his former team and even threatens Cinncinati.

WOW. Unreal comments by Coach Miller. Zags get to play both "stand-up" Coaches this season. Lucky us.

It must be an 'Xavier thing', which pains me to admit.

From this morning's Arizona Daily Star:


"If Cincinnati tries to do what they did (Saturday) they're going to get a fight," Miller said after UA beat Clemson on Saturday. "So I'm proud of those guys. They have a chance to win it all," Miller said. "It's just such a great story. I'm really proud of those guys and I watch them any time that I can. No one's going to bully those guys."

Miller said he was not surprised Saturday's Xavier-Cincinnati intra-city rivalry game featured a brawl that resulted in eight player suspensions. "Happens every game. I'm proud of those guys, I really am," Miller said of Xavier, his former team. "I would fully expect there to be a fight."



Cincinnati-Xavier erupted into what it did because nobody involved apparently understood what "toughness" really is. That's the biggest criticism we've heard in the past few days, especially of Xavier -- that "these guys just don't get it."

If their former coach is "proud" of what he saw Saturday, well, no wonder.

Sean Miller leaps into Xavier-Cincy fray (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/41834/sean-miller-leaps-into-xavier-cincy-fray)

Coach Miller is apparently a "tough guy" as well. Ugh.

tobizag
12-12-2011, 11:37 AM
just saw this myself as well...what an imbecile.

and gonzaga has the distinct honor of getting both these teams in the next few weeks.

i hope our players stay safe and shut their mouths in both games, especially at xavier. not suggesting our players run their mouths, but just saying it would be in their best interest to not get into it with these "gangsters"...their words, not mine.

asoc
12-12-2011, 11:39 AM
Could Arizona fine their coach for his comments?
Will they?

DixieZag
12-12-2011, 11:40 AM
Former Xavier coach Sean Miller weighs in on Saturday's brawl and aftermath. Says Miller of his former players and their "toughness":



Read more: http://azstarnet.com/sports/blogs/pascoe/wildcats-miller-supports-xavier-after-brawl/article_de9b079e-24ec-11e1-8392-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz1gM2iEF6b


Sean, better to keep your mouth shut and have people suspect you might be an idiot than open it and give them empirical proof.

O.M.G. Yeah, they are "really tough" - thats for sure.

HillBillyZag
12-12-2011, 11:43 AM
Where the hell is the Admin Dept. in this mess? Frankly, in my playing days if an incident like this took place at a Catholic University there would not only have been suspensions, there would have been expulsions?

zagfan1970
12-12-2011, 11:46 AM
Cincinnati coach Cronin the BIGGER, BETTER MAN in this situation. The way he handled it is admirable, especially in light of the way Xavier's coach did/didn't and the way Sean Miller is speaking out! I hope we clean up the streets from "gangsters" without talking s--t!!!! and walk away from Seattle and Ohio with W's

jazzdelmar
12-12-2011, 11:50 AM
what about the zona admin? what do they think about their little pillsbury doughboy's comment, esp in light of defections from their program and their own experiences w punks? gotta love big time hoops. in this matter, thnk god for few....

Timeout!
12-12-2011, 11:50 AM
sA good quote by ESPN's Brennan following Coach Miller's comments today:


If I may say so myself, it's a warped definition of "toughness." That definition says physical toughness is more important than mental wherewithal. It says talking trash to opponents late in a blowout -- "zipping them up," as Tu Holloway put it -- and being willing to go toe to toe in a fistfight is a more valuable trait than the ability to win with dignity and class. It says toughness is about posture and knuckles, not about the ability to be the bigger person, to merely prove your superiority on the court, to let your play do the talking. How could Miller be proud of that? How could he support anything he saw on Saturday? How does that even compute?

I wonder if the X on that chest fuels some sort of warped thinking or living up to a 'tough guy' reputation. This is all surreal, imo.

How can the NCAA ban a team from post-season play for 2 seasons, withdrawal 30 scholarships, forfeit an entire season, demand a return of a schools/players' Heisman, and tack on 5+ yrs of probation all for a player's family accepting a place to live two cities away via a prospective agent. The NCAA deemed said school as "lack of institutional control" b/c a star player, not himself, yet his immediate family was receiving money & town home from a potential agent.

If they want to throw around "lack of institutional control", what did we just witness on Saturday? Not just the fight, yet the players comments in the media and the subsequent slaps of the wrist with basically no consequence or accountability.

If the NCAA is trying to protect their so-called "image", what kind of example did Xavier/Cincy set for NCAA and even sports in general? If I'm a 10 yr old watching the players fight, call themselves gangsters, and glorify themselves, w/o any real punishment, then why can't I take out my frustrations on the court as well? I've felt upset at the opposing team before, right?

Let's brawl. We'll get on ESPN, receive our own press conference(twice), and get a breather for a game.

At least I know I can't go out to eat dinner with an agent, as I may never play again & be shunned from the sport, yet I can assault others on national TV and get away with it.

What about the HS bball player who was banned from playing hoops and expelled from school after he *pushed* a referee? Why is that ANY worse than what happened on Saturday?

DixieZag
12-12-2011, 11:51 AM
Arizona fans should now know what type of program their coach respects and admires, the type of program that he will build down there. I think that there will be a serious bite back in Tuscon, they are used to good hard nosed BB but with pretty good kids and a respected coach. I don't think they will like hearing their coach's "admiration" and "respect" for their toughness.

Sickening.

Timeout!
12-12-2011, 11:52 AM
just noticed AR and I posted the same article/topic a minute apart. Mods, feel free to merge...

jazzdelmar
12-12-2011, 11:54 AM
[QUOTE=DixieZag;708255]Arizona fans should now know what type of program their coach respects and admires, the type of program that he will build down there. I think that there will be a serious bite back in Tuscon, they are used to good hard nosed BB but with pretty good kids and a respected coach. I don't think they will like hearing their coach's "admiration" and "respect" for their toughness.

dont be sure about all that. Lute had plenty of bad apples in his days. he was just prettier than the doughboy.....seannie, a salad once in a while. also recall that miller played on some pretty physical pitt teams when the big least was all that.

Angelo Roncalli
12-12-2011, 11:55 AM
just noticed AR and I posted the same article/topic a minute apart. Mods, feel free to merge...

Great minds think alike?

CaliforniaZaggin'
12-12-2011, 11:59 AM
Sean Miller did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Holy smokes.

75Zag
12-12-2011, 12:09 PM
I dislike thug ball as much as anybody, but the reference to winning with "Dignity and Class" suggests that the commentator may be living in the 1950s or 60s, or in any event prior to the Tark the Shark and Bobby Knight era. I think the "Dignity and Class" ship sailed about 30 years ago.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

sittingon50
12-12-2011, 12:10 PM
On the stupid scale, Miller's comment is right up there.

gamagin
12-12-2011, 12:13 PM
daily. like everything else, without solid rules to prevent what has happened, and solid consequences, it's all noise.

If a kid throws a punch and knows doing so is an automatic suspension for x number of games, possibly a season, etc etc., it's controlled.

If not, well, how does a coach get THE toughest dog in the fight, encourage him to use his muscle all the time, but not lose his cool, without serious consequences ?

Rules and regs are for everybody and cut to the heart of what's tolerable and what isn't. The best players and coaches teach their charges to play on the edge all the time.

Failure to guard and refine and define that line is just failure. Not to be tolerated. Period. Even this fellow saying he's proud of it should not be tolerated. Like yelling fire in a crowded theatre. It threatens the balance and if it isn't dialed back with action, it goes forward.

TM27
12-12-2011, 12:17 PM
Does getting beat up make you tough? The players are congratulating themselves for being "gangsta's" and Sean Miller saying he is proud, etc. is disappointing, but could maybe be understandable if Xavier players had done anything other than get punched by 99% of the punches thrown.

It started out weird when Frease is laying out at mid-court bleeding on himself then he stands up and starts yelling and chest bumbing while walking away from the fight like he did something other than get destroyed by a right cross. Then Xavier players come back out on the court after Cincy is gone and Frease has to be restrained by coaches to keep him from going after Cincinnati fans, apparently forgetting that he had a fantastic opportunity to fight people a few moments earlier (people his own size go figure) and he chose to lay down at center court.

Then the post game and the Xavier players are talking about body bags and gangsta, etc and I am trying to figure out if I missed the real fight?

I am not condoning Cincy or anyone's actions on either side, dont really care one way or another honestly, but what I am cant for the life of me figure out is why Xavier is walking around like they did something worth a damn in that fight?

NEC26
12-12-2011, 12:21 PM
I don't think Cronin has been any better at all except in what he says. He talked tough but Gates only got a 6 game suspension which imo is FAR FAR below what he should have gotten.
The kid who stomped on Freese after he was on the floor from Gates sucker punch should be out for the year and so should Gates. A 6 game supension is a joke after all his tough talk in the press conference.
Xavier clearly doesn't get it either though. Not only do they not give tough suspensions they keep talking and showing themselves to be idiots.

Timeout!
12-12-2011, 12:22 PM
If a kid throws a punch and knows doing so is an automatic suspension for x number of games, possibly a season, etc etc., it's controlled.


+1

Couldn't agree more.

How does the NCAA have standard penalties, suspensions, rules in place for the vaguest of vague actions, such as texting, spending time with an agent, accepting "improper benefits", etc etc, yet no one can decide what to do, for how long, or how to handle a situation when a player throws punches or melees break out.

Even the NHL would be suspending players MUCH longer for blind-side punches, kicks, attacking Coaches, group fights, etc.

I can't continue to comment on this anymore, its just to unreal to grasp in my mind.

NEC26
12-12-2011, 12:26 PM
I don't think just tougher penalties for assault are needed I think its high time they started making basketball basketball and stopped it from being football.
That would also cut down on this Gangsta mentality. The Big East and to some extent the Big Ten have changed the way this game was meant to be played and the refs allow it.

CaliforniaZaggin'
12-12-2011, 12:35 PM
The truly unfortunate aspect of Miller's comments is that a high school kid somewhere could hear them and think Xavier's behavior was not only tolerable, but the proper strategy for handling any bad trash talking.

75Zag
12-12-2011, 12:37 PM
The truly unfortunate aspect of Miller's comments is that a high school kid somewhere could hear them and think Xavier's behavior was not only tolerable, but the proper strategy for handling any bad trash talking.

Amen

zagzilla
12-12-2011, 12:49 PM
More proof that the Gonzaga program under Few is special and we are lucky to have him at the helm.

Now let's go kick some a$$ on Sean Millers team (figuratively speaking) this Saturday!

ZZ

maynard g krebs
12-12-2011, 12:54 PM
I don't think just tougher penalties for assault are needed I think its high time they started making basketball basketball and stopped it from being football.


I said about the same after the Cincy-GU game in Hawaii and got ridiculed for it- "hey you kids, get off my lawn", etc.

The way the game was officiated prior to the 80s, there was little reason for players to "bulk up" like today's players have to in order to compete. It has gone from a game of skill and finesse to a wrestling match in the post. What's surprising is that these situations don't develop more often.

Drives me nuts when people say "let em play", when what that means is let em push and shove, bump and hack. I'd love to see the clock turned back 30 years in terms of how the game is officiated. After whole teams fouled out a couple times, players would adjust and the game would be better for it.

Saxon_zag
12-12-2011, 12:59 PM
The truly unfortunate aspect of Miller's comments is that a high school kid somewhere could hear them and think Xavier's behavior was not only tolerable, but the proper strategy for handling any bad trash talking.


But the children!!!!!!


Do you really think some high schooler is that impressionable to listen to Sean Miller like that without a second thought? I don't

NEC26
12-12-2011, 01:09 PM
But the children!!!!!!


Do you really think some high schooler is that impressionable to listen to Sean Miller like that without a second thought? I don't

Actually yes, when you send the message that its acceptable/desirable behavior young impressionable kids believe it.
Its exactly how gangs operate taking young kids and molding young minds into believing such behavior is acceptable/desirable.

CaliforniaZaggin'
12-12-2011, 01:19 PM
But the children!!!!!!


Do you really think some high schooler is that impressionable to listen to Sean Miller like that without a second thought? I don't

If a kid is a Wildcats fan or an Xavier fan, or even just a big college basketball fan, then Sean Miller's words will have weight, no?

And, yes, the children.

HillBillyZag
12-12-2011, 01:38 PM
Look, anyone who has loved, played, and watched this game for over fifty years has seen major changes, some good, some bad, and some just in bad taste! "Working the Officials ?" for instance, was nearly unheard of until the success of Al McGuire, (who could never keep his mouth shut!) sucessfully built his Marquette University Program into a power and as a result was shown continuisly #####ing at the Officials. He got "teed up" a lot, and "tossed" on many occasions. But he started getting close calls his way because the Ref's just got tired of hearing him. It did'nt take long for opposing Coaches to get the message and copy his antics and the practice grew into today's bravo sierra. After the Texas Western Title, " Phi slamma jamma" and the discovery of the leaping and running abilities of great athletes, the beauty of some moves was so great, that traveling, palming the ball, time in the lane, and charging, while not negated?, were for a several decades? not called with any consistancy. That has been rectified until now at least the calls are mostly made. When the dollar revenue really started to grow and kids who were great at the game but NOT PREPARED or simply lacking the smarts for college began to be recruited by coaches willing to "look the other way"? Indeed, now, many of those with great reputations, do no more than give "lip service" to the idea of working with kids who need fundemental improvement on parts of their game and are not quite as "athletic" prefer to recruit ONLY athletes and believe that good athletes can be made into a basketball player while not all good basketball players will ever be made necessarily athletic. It is also now the time of the anti-hero, where for some reason a kid would rather emulate a Bill Lambier than a Bill Walton, or an prefer Alan Iverson over Grant Hill ? And for many fans the one on one movel and the "dunk" are more attractive than a "backdoor cut" or a mid range jumper? Beauty is in the "eye of the beholder" but when a Senior player, on a great Xavier University team and a freshman stud team-mate describe playing intercollegiate basketball as gang wars and equate it with killing, one wonders what the hell they are teaching in Cincinnati?, what kid of kids they are recruiting at Xavier?, and where the hell is our society heading?

04ZagFan
12-12-2011, 01:43 PM
Wow. I thought Sean Miller had more class than that....

The funny thing is, is that it was XAVIER who was ASKING for a fight with all the jawing they did all game long. Giving Cincinnati something to get upset about is a terrible idea.

Baldwinzag
12-12-2011, 01:44 PM
Never thought about the subjective/inherent implications this may potentially have on officiating for awhile...

We've seen reputations do proceed themselves on the court -- just ask WCC officials and/or how we're treated on occasion due to GU's more physical approach compared to previous seasons.

I recall an official admitting to watching game tape to discover fouling tendencies of certain players, etc.

I hate to admit it and hopefully it won't have any bearing, yet refs are humans too and saw the same thing we all saw...

McZag
12-12-2011, 01:46 PM
Cincinnati coach Cronin the BIGGER, BETTER MAN in this situation. The way he handled it is admirable, especially in light of the way Xavier's coach did/didn't and the way Sean Miller is speaking out! I hope we clean up the streets from "gangsters" without talking s--t!!!! and walk away from Seattle and Ohio with W's

Cronin did say the right things but there are no winners here. His players are a reflection of himself and the university as a whole. When you run around on national TV with the name of an institution clearly marked on your jersey, you are that institution for those 40 minutes. Cronin has failed his players in that he hasn't taught them what their responsibility is to the university that is providing their scholorship.

Baldwinzag
12-12-2011, 01:48 PM
The two thread discussing the same topic i.e. Coach Sean Miller's recent comments re: Xavier should be merged. /friendly suggestion. :)

duper
12-12-2011, 02:05 PM
Where the hell is the Admin Dept. in this mess? Frankly, in my playing days if an incident like this took place at a Catholic University there would not only have been suspensions, there would have been expulsions?

I remember a brawl or 2 in GU baseball during the late 80's. Seems like one was against Olerude's WSU team.

zagitup
12-12-2011, 02:14 PM
Cronin did say the right things but there are no winners here. His players are a reflection of himself and the university as a whole. When you run around on national TV with the name of an institution clearly marked on your jersey, you are that institution for those 40 minutes. Cronin has failed his players in that he hasn't taught them what their responsibility is to the university that is providing their scholorship.


I'll take it even further than this. Cronin's remarks at the presser, while articulate and mature on the surface, caused me to laugh out loud while he was uttering them. Given his history of recruiting the Gates-type of players and intentionally building a program that has as its "theme" thuggish brute-ball, his stance is the height of hypocrisy. Makes me want to puke.

Rangerzag
12-12-2011, 04:40 PM
what about the zona admin? what do they think about their little pillsbury doughboy's comment, esp in light of defections from their program and their own experiences w punks? gotta love big time hoops. in this matter, thnk god for few....



Thanks for the new quote for the signature line, jazz ;^)


,

CDC84
12-12-2011, 06:25 PM
The fact that Miller - an ex-Xavier coach - would make these comments just shows how violent and hate-filled the Crosstown Shootout has become.

zagamatic
12-12-2011, 07:52 PM
And one thing I've never seen is someone getting up after getting beat down goin "ya know what? I totally agree with you and see your point". What I have seen is arrests, hospital visits and escalating retaliation. In my opinion, the least any of the involved players should get is a 5 game suspension if not more.

jim77
12-13-2011, 12:03 AM
Does getting beat up make you tough? The players are congratulating themselves for being "gangsta's" and Sean Miller saying he is proud, etc. is disappointing, but could maybe be understandable if Xavier players had done anything other than get punched by 99% of the punches thrown.

It started out weird when Frease is laying out at mid-court bleeding on himself then he stands up and starts yelling and chest bumbing while walking away from the fight like he did something other than get destroyed by a right cross. Then Xavier players come back out on the court after Cincy is gone and Frease has to be restrained by coaches to keep him from going after Cincinnati fans, apparently forgetting that he had a fantastic opportunity to fight people a few moments earlier (people his own size go figure) and he chose to lay down at center court.

Then the post game and the Xavier players are talking about body bags and gangsta, etc and I am trying to figure out if I missed the real fight?

I am not condoning Cincy or anyone's actions on either side, dont really care one way or another honestly, but what I am cant for the life of me figure out is why Xavier is walking around like they did something worth a damn in that fight?

Exactly....maybe X should have just taken their 20 point victory and gone home.

Zag@LMU
12-13-2011, 12:36 AM
just saw this myself as well...what an imbecile.

and gonzaga has the distinct honor of getting both these teams in the next few weeks.

i hope our players stay safe and shut their mouths in both games, especially at xavier. not suggesting our players run their mouths, but just saying it would be in their best interest to not get into it with these "gangsters"...their words, not mine.

Pangos runs his mouth quite a bit from what ive seen. At least he doesnt back down to other playes. He got into it with Appling I believe it was, as well as Reggie Moore against WSU