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View Full Version : Five wins and two UNLUCKY losses...



ldszagfan
12-12-2011, 08:19 AM
Meyers Leonard --- 24 (min) 9-11 (fg) 0-0 (3p) 3-4 (ft) 2 (oreb) 6 (reb) 1 (ast) 0 (st) 1 (bl) 0 (to) 4 (pf) 21 (pts)

Draymond Green --- 33 (min) 11-13 (fg) 4-5 (3p) 8-9 (ft) 0 (oreb) 2 (reb) 3 (ast) 3 (st) 0 (bl) 2 (to) 4 (pf) 34 (pts)

Both Meyers Leonard and Draymond Green had career nights against the Zags (Leonard was one point away from his career high with ten minutes less playing time when he scored his career high of 22 earlier this year). Although a lot of us are blaming poor defense for these performances, these guys were just hot from the floor. It didn't matter who guarded them (whether be Hart, Harris, Sacre, or a zone defense), they broke through and couldn't be touched. I mean, look at Green's performance, he's a mid 20% career shooter from beyond the arc and he shot 4/5 against us. I don't care if he was open on any of those, a mid 20% 3-point shooter does not make every open shot (I mean, look at Meech... could you have seen him going 4/5 from beyond the arc in a single game?).

Point of the matter is, if these guys didn't play the game of their lives against us, we would have won BOTH games. Did we play perfect in either game? No. But there is plenty to be happy with about how our team is performing. We've just ran into some bad luck against the wrong teams.

RenoZag
12-12-2011, 08:21 AM
Luck's got nothing to do with it

zag944
12-12-2011, 08:22 AM
people having career games against us isnt bad luck, it's a trend

sittingon50
12-12-2011, 08:26 AM
20+ turnovers won't do much for your luck either.

webspinnre
12-12-2011, 08:31 AM
Calling it luck isn't really the best picture of what happened. We definitely got outplayed, and a couple of excellent talents had big nights, but portraying it as luck isn't accurate. Maybe some part of it was luck, but skill was also a key part, both on their end, and on us not stopping them.

75Zag
12-12-2011, 08:33 AM
It would be reassuring if GU Staff acknowledged the recent unfortunate trend of GU making so many career games for designated opposing players. And then they could explain why it happened and what adjustments they are making. Bad luck is no longer a believable explanation.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

HOOTER
12-12-2011, 08:35 AM
Luck's got nothing to do with it

Correct. Career nights don't just happen by chance. The day Few blames losses like these on bad luck is the day I want to see him gone. I don't see that happening though. The Zags made some serious mistakes that opened the door for these guys to have career nights. This can be turned into a positive if they can identify and correct these mistakes in the future. One thing is for sure, luck really doesn't have anything to do with it.

GoZags
12-12-2011, 08:39 AM
It would be reassuring if GU Staff acknowledged the recent unfortunate trend of GU making so many career games for designated opposing players. And then they could explain why it happened and what adjustments they are making. Bad luck is no longer a believable explanation.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

Ummm -- do you mean "publicly" acknowledge? Or do you mean the coaches haven't noticed?

Not sure how reassuring the fans what they've noticed and are working on helps the situation. Also not sure where the posts are that talk about the many times GU has held noted scorers to well below their average.

ZagnetitForce
12-12-2011, 08:47 AM
Not sure how reassuring the fans what they've noticed and are working on helps the situation. Also not sure where the posts are that talk about the many times GU has held noted scorers to well below their average.[/QUOTE]

+1

zagzilla
12-12-2011, 08:58 AM
If it keeps happening it's not luck.

Maybe we can start a new tradition of predicting the player on an upcoming opponent who will have a career game against GU.

"Predict the Oral Roberts GUnit" In this case I'm going with Steven Roundtree

ZZ

tobizag
12-12-2011, 09:03 AM
people having career games against us isnt bad luck, it's a trend

this

every year, we have several games where someone "happens" to have a career night.

coolhandzag
12-12-2011, 09:07 AM
Luck? Trend? Mode of Operandi?

75Zag
12-12-2011, 09:09 AM
Ummm -- do you mean "publicly" acknowledge? Or do you mean the coaches haven't noticed?

Not sure how reassuring the fans what they've noticed and are working on helps the situation. Also not sure where the posts are that talk about the many times GU has held noted scorers to well below their average.

I mean acknowledging to the GU faithful which means publicly. I listen and/or watch some of the Mark Few broadcasts and I, who have never played or coached one second of basketball above the 9th grade, could write, produce and script Few's comments because although I have NONE, ZERO, NADA sports backround, in my day job I do work with an endless and annoying number of incredibly skilled PR experts and although I get paid a lot of money to help spin their stuff (Bankers are Good, Unemployed People are Bad) I can see through it in a second. I am looking for the truth. But so was Don Quixote, and I think we all know where that went.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

SWZag
12-12-2011, 10:23 AM
We've lost by 7 points to two teams. 14 points total. Those two teams have a combined record of 18-2. Those two losses came to current #1 North Carolina and #6 Duke.

I think GU is in a good position. We are still pretty inexperienced overall as a team.

We are all getting paranoid about TWO players having career games against us. I guess now we know how other teams felt when we had Ammo. Making crazy shots, hitting everything he threw up at the basket. Look at Wazzu when Pangos went off. Without his career game, we could have easily lost that game.

These two players that beat us are good players. Green was averaging 10 boards a game coming in, had 2. He's an experienced Senior and a beast. There's going to be games where some guys feel it.

SWZag

Reborn
12-12-2011, 10:28 AM
What I'm asking is not who's going to step up for them and have a career night? I'm asking who is going to step up for Gonzaga and have a career night. I believe David Stockton did the other night against Michigan State. Now can David sustain that kind of shooting every game?

rennis
12-12-2011, 10:33 AM
20+ turnovers won't do much for your luck either.

This is really what has been to blame in the two losses.

Leonard is a very talented player and he took the game as a personal challenge regarding how he would be judged against Sacre. Sacre played him a fool for 20 minutes, but Leonard, to his credit, made some great adjustments and played a fantastic 2nd half. That wasn't luck, that was basketball.

Draymond Green was not luck either. When Harris oley'd that guy in the first half and let him have that first open look from 3 we were done. You don't give that talented of a player an open look and allow them to get hot. Period. I don't care what the scouting report says about their perimeter talent. That was inexcusable defense and it set the tone for the entire game. I was really disappointed in that. I'm sure the film sessions were not much fun for Elias...

Timeout!
12-12-2011, 10:58 AM
uh oh -- flood gates are gonna open...

John Blanchette put it best:


And in what is a not-so-grand Gonzaga tradition, the Zags singled out one player to make All-World for a day.

JB's article (http://www.spokesman.com/zags/stories/2011/dec/11/message-not-sent/).

Based on our reputation alone, teams know they have a chance to 'light us up' from 3pt and players believe they can have a career-night vs us(which many do). Our reputation combined with a player's confidence can go a long way and work against us, yet its still mostly our shotty defense and inability to adapt to stopping a player if he gets hot.

The odd thing is, while Notre Dame isn't the best this season, our effort/intensity/hustle was a step above the rest of our games. Was it the Catholic vs Jesuit rivaly that got them so fired up or what, yet we never let up, not for one min that game. Just as we played with passion the final 5-8 mins vs Illinois & Mich St, we actually played all 40 mins vs Notre Dame. It was evident, palpable, obvious, and effective. Whatever we did to game-plan our guys that week, we should be doing every week. I recall Mike Hart saying it was the 'best week of practice' in interviews prior to ND game. Why?

BJZags
12-12-2011, 11:54 AM
One of the comments from JB's article stated in part:

"Few gets teams of little talent to over-perform, but teams with “major” talent to under-perform."

Is this a fair assessment?

TacomaZAG
12-12-2011, 11:57 AM
OK, Green is a Stud and had a career night offensively. My question is this, He picked up his third foul early in the second half and why did we do NOTHING to try and get him #4 and put him on the bench for big minutes. I don't care how hot a guy is, he can't score from the bench.

Really frustrating........How about dumping it down to Harris 10 times in a row and let him go get Green #4 or get an easy layup.

We did a great job on the boards, as others have said, too many turnovers and not enough assists. Approximate 1:2 assists to turnover ratio is not going to get it done.

Go ZAGS

zag944
12-12-2011, 12:00 PM
One of the comments from JB's article stated in part:

"Few gets teams of little talent to over-perform, but teams with “major” talent to under-perform."

Is this a fair assessment?

substitute the word "teams" with "players" and I think its a little more fair.

tinfoilzag
12-12-2011, 12:01 PM
A large part of good defense is having top notch athletes. It's that simple. If you are a very strong and quick, you can play defense in basketball without alot of basketball smarts.

We don't get alot of those players through Gonzaga. Usually we have only one or two on the court at once. Savvy, effort, and team schemes can only get you so far on D.

Usually, Gonzaga can make up for that by excelling in discipline and intellect. When GU turns the ball over, fails to finish on drives, or misses free throws, the career games by other star players become a focus when it's just a stat line.

It doesn't matter if guys have career numbers against us if we win.

DADoZAG
12-12-2011, 12:02 PM
One of the comments from JB's article stated in part:

"Few gets teams of little talent to over-perform, but teams with “major” talent to under-perform."

Is this a fair assessment?

Not saying it's fair, but he's not the only one that has made that assessment.

ZAG UP!

sittingon50
12-12-2011, 12:05 PM
Green's previous "career night" was 26 vs Wisconsin last January. IIRC the Badgers play some pretty go D.

TheGonzagaFactor
12-12-2011, 12:08 PM
It's been bad luck caused by inexperience. This schedule is perfect for the young frontcourt. They have taken losses to two (now) ranked teams who could both be top 3 in the Big Ten. If we win all the games besides Xavier and keep them within 10, I'll consider the OOC a success, given our youth.

We let good players go off for big games, hopefully as GBJ and Pangos mature we will be able to outscore a team on their star's career night.

gamagin
12-12-2011, 12:36 PM
preparation meets opportunity.

we were "unlucky" because we weren't prepared and didn't capitalize on all the openings we did have vs. MSU. Like RS dishing to an open Zag for a shot when he was double and triple teamed. Like EH and SD failing to pass EVER. etc etc.

MSU was "luckier" because they were prepared and took the opportunities they saw (some we allowed) & capitalized.

I would add that we give at least one opponent the opportunity to have a career night because we are so predictable. I'd call that letting them get lucky on our dime.

Green was shooting poorly before our game. He got, or took, the opportunity to go ahead to shoot because it was there. And he got a hot hand.

He kept it, while we didn't jam him up, disrupt him, foul him or make life difficult if not miserable, like RS was jammed beginning to end.

You might say green got lucky in that sense. I'd say he made his own luck when we encouraged him. And before any of us realized it, luck turned to confidence and, voila !, a new star is born.

We need to do the same.

Timeout!
12-12-2011, 12:48 PM
Quick thought:

-- Elias & Green are the same year. Last time out, Elias DOMINATED Draymond Green when they were both freshman. They were the same size, same type of recruit(Top-150), and had similar games. The interesting thing is Green has improved exponentially since his Freshman season. Elias used to look like the much better prospect. Green was flabby, immature, one-dimensional, etc. Elias is the exact same player, if not regressed a little on offense.

Why does this happen? Same applies to Meyers Leonard. He was a non-factor as a Frosh when we played them last season. Sacre, much like Elias, pushed him out of the box, stopped him from scoring, scored on him. However, just as Green has developed at MSU, so has Leonard at Illinois. They are essentially the same age as our guys, yet developing at a faster rate. Sacre & Harris were both Top-150 guys and so were Leonard & Green.

Is this example a microcosm of our inability to really develop talent like we see at other schools? How does Elias dominate a player at MSU two years ago, they both played the last two season, Green is a much better player/prospect and has surpassed Elias. Same things applies with Sacre vs Leonard. Other players are getting much MUCH better and we're not getting more out of our players.

I found this interesting and something worth thinking about? Meyers & Green are NO MORE talented than our guys, which was proven when they were the same age; the only difference is they developed and we did not. Hmmm...

cjm720
12-12-2011, 01:49 PM
One guy doesn't beat us.

Turnovers, youth, and our schizo "front" court hurt us

cjm720
12-12-2011, 02:02 PM
I found this interesting and something worth thinking about? Meyers & Green are NO MORE talented than our guys, which was proven when they were the same age; the only difference is they developed and we did not. Hmmm...

Meyers - Scout grade 95. Offers from Florida and Purdue

Green - Scout grade 96

===============

Sacre and Harris simply are less talented IMO, from an eye test and recruiting grades. (Sacre was a 3 star on scout.com, no grade on ESPN was published; Harris was not graded, as a German).

I think Sacre's developed well, but will never be a super athlete; Harris may have peaked. That said, I do wonder about the coaches and their job, but more so from the perspective that we have two walk ons playing major roles.

rennis
12-12-2011, 02:14 PM
Meyers - Scout grade 95. Offers from Florida and Purdue

Green - Scout grade 96

===============

Sacre and Harris simply are less talented IMO, from an eye test and recruiting grades. (Sacre was a 3 start on scout.com, no grade on ESPN was published; Harris was not graded, as a German).

I think Sacre's developed well, but will never be a super athlete; Harris may have peaked. That said, I do wonder about the coaches and there job, but more so from the perspective that we have two walk ons playing major roles.


Agree with almost everything you say here. Sacre is nowhere near the athlete that Meyers is. Meyers is a FREAKY athlete. Sacre is a lot smarter and stronger...didn't translate into a win for us.

DG is another athlete...the kind we don't see often. We didn't respond well to that.

I don't think Harris has peaked though. He's in a slump right now. (much like 'Quise.) It won't be like this all season, I promise.

bartruff1
12-12-2011, 07:45 PM
One of the comments from JB's article stated in part:

"Few gets teams of little talent to over-perform, but teams with “major” talent to under-perform."

Is this a fair assessment?...get a rope !!!

RenoZag
12-12-2011, 07:54 PM
It won't be like this all season, I promise.

Cross your heart & hope to die promise !?!

rennis
12-13-2011, 09:19 AM
Cross your heart & hope to die promise !?!

stick a needle in my eye!!