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Timeout!
12-11-2011, 01:55 PM
Bittersweet news, imo.

While I adamantly disagree with the rather weak punishments handed out by Xavier, I prefer to face them w/o any excuses. All X players will be eligible vs Zags.

Win or lose, I'd rather face them at full-strength.


Xavier suspended (http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7341744/cincinnati-bearcats-suspend-four-players-brawl-xavier-musketeers) Landen Amos and Dez Wells four games each, Mark Lyons two games, and Tu Holloway one game.

Dez Wells, one of their best/most versatile players, was the primary instigator and received the most brutal punishment via Xavier officials -- 4 games. Cinncinati starters received 6 games a piece.

Xavier plays Oral Roberts, Long Beach St, and two addt'l games in the Diamond Head Classic prior to facing Gonzaga, which is exactly 4 games. Coincidence?

While we felt they'd be missing a player or two, they will be a complete team once again. Our toughest opponent this season, imo.

Some poster mentioned Dez Wells(10ppg, 5 rpg) to be unavailable vs Gonzaga based on their published schedule yet the self-proclaimed "gangstas" will be a gang once again.

Thoughts?

Baldwinzag
12-11-2011, 02:04 PM
Thoughts?
:explode:

Zag@LMU
12-11-2011, 02:06 PM
Xavier is a disgrace to college sports.

Mantua
12-11-2011, 02:06 PM
The NCAA hasn't voiced an opinion yet, but if they do it will no doubt be about Gates.

I'm surprised that we didn't play better in the last two games. Something seems way off. Maybe the X game will provide focus and fire for the players and the coaches.

Baldwinzag
12-11-2011, 02:08 PM
Xavier is a disgrace to college sports.

and so is the NCAA. . .

SunDevilGolfZag
12-11-2011, 03:49 PM
Xavier is a disgrace to college sports.

The school's choice of self-styled "gangster" representatives to shoot their mouths off at the post-game press conference was interesting. Even more interesting now is that their star got just a one-game suspension when it was his mouthing off in the face of victory that precipitated the brawl. But the Xavier administration made their call, so it is what it is and they are who they are.

kclubfounder
12-11-2011, 04:05 PM
Xavier is on the verge of going the way of Penn State. I can't imagine how embarrassing it must be.

DixieZag
12-11-2011, 04:11 PM
I am truly shocked. I thought the Xavier administration, the real adminstration, would have been so thoroughly embarrassed that they would have kept them out for at least 4 games. One game is what they were going to get from the officials for simply getting into a fight, plus the B.S. at the press conference would have had me doubling the initial penalty.

But, it was a "no win" for GU anyway, either we play them with all their guys and there is no justice, or we play them with suspended players in an "us against the world" fever and a tainted win (if we got it). I want absolutely no part of this game, there is nothing for GU to win.

Timeout!
12-11-2011, 04:12 PM
Xavier is on the verge of going the way of Penn State. I can't imagine how embarrassing it must be.

and I feel they made matters worse for themselves by suspending their *star* players half the time Cinncinati decided to suspend their guys. pathetic. most people feel it was too light of punishment given the crime, especially after reading the comments section on the most recent ESPN article.

zagzilla
12-11-2011, 04:42 PM
Who decided the length of the respective suspensions? Big east for Cincy and A10 for X or was it the schools themselves?

6 games for Cincy thugs vs 1 to 4 for Xavier thugs gives you a sense for how seriously they take the actions of their players and the effect they have their institutions' reputations. Can't see how the actions of the players warranted such a disparity in consequences considering X started it and all were throwing punches.

ESPN.com indicated GU was 3 games from now. Did not have the Diamond Head Classic.

ZZ

04ZagFan
12-11-2011, 06:34 PM
ONE game for Hallaway and only TWO for Lyons?!?

Shoot, I'd sit their asses out of the rest of the season. What an embarrassing group to represent your school.

Das Zagger
12-11-2011, 06:36 PM
Xavier is on the verge of going the way of Penn State. I can't imagine how embarrassing it must be.

A child sex assault cover-up that goes on for years and years? It was a fight, it lasted a few minutes but again, maybe they're covering up an underground fight club of some sort.

I see what you're saying but I don't think the XU administration will be burning in hell like Paterno, Sandusky, and others that turned a blind eye.

billyberu
12-11-2011, 06:41 PM
A child sex assault cover-up that goes on for years and years? It was a fight, it lasted a few minutes but again, maybe they're covering up an underground fight club of some sort.

I see what you're saying but I don't think the XU administration will be burning in hell like Paterno, Sandusky, and others that turned a blind eye.

Thank you.

gamagin
12-11-2011, 10:19 PM
then do what it takes and beat them.

Timeout!
12-12-2011, 04:40 AM
Cincy, Xavier's brawl suspensions fall short -- worth a read.

Shocking, really. I wonder if administrators from Xavier only watched the clips shown ESPN, b/c after addt'l footage, photos, and side cameras were shown, its much worse than the game tape. It was vicious and surprised there weren't more injuries on the floor. There were so many missed punches which should also be taken into account. STILL no word from the NCAA besides, "we fully support the schools decisions", yet they're too busy running around trying to find and bust players who accepted a lunch from a potential agent, booster, or anyone besides their own family or accepting "improper" benefits, like a place to sleep, when you're 15 yrs old. Those are the real crimes and worthy of bans or lengthy suspensions. Just imagine the example these schools and NCAA are setting to young athletes. Its OK to fight and hurt others ON the court, yet damn you all you hell if you're bought a free lunch/allowed to drive a car/have a night out with friends/or sleep in a team hotel(Guy-Landry) OFF the court.


It's remarkable, really. Does a single punishment in that list match what we saw on the floor?


But as we saw this weekend, talk is one thing. Actions are another. Cronin can deliver one profound soliloquy after another. They won't change the fact that his -- and the Musketeers' -- punishments don't fit what we saw Saturday.

You can say there are things more important than basketball. But the Bearcats and Musketeers had a chance to deliver the real message with their punishments on Sunday. In the end, that message came through loud and clear: Fighting is bad. Don't fight, guys. We don't like fighting. But -- sshh -- we like losing even less.

the rest of the blog entry can be found HERE (http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/41737/cincy-xaviers-brawl-suspensions-fall-short).

BULLDOG#1
12-12-2011, 05:59 AM
I try and give zag opponents respect on this board. This case is different. I would love to see the zags mop the floor with these punks.

The post game comments were nearly as bad as the incident. Who is guiding these kids? Xavier should be ashamed.

GoZags
12-12-2011, 06:08 AM
Different angle -- shows Holloway's slap to the face and that he helped throw the Cincy player to the ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz23t5K9D9E

75Zag
12-12-2011, 06:14 AM
In the NHL - at least prior to the kinder, gentler rules they are trying to enforce this year - most teams have (had) one or more enforcers. A few well chosen fights which sometimes seemed to be totally random were enough to put the fear into some opposing players, which allowed the teams with the biggest, baddest enforcers to win some games they probably should not have won. Being big and mean is not unheard of in college BB. Many of the Pitt teams were downright dangerous.

Will the X - Cincy fight hurt or help those teams in the long run? If winning games is your measure of success or failure, I think you can debate both sides. I know that asking such questions is not necessarily consistent with the purity of amateur sports that the NCAA is all about, but I wonder. If you are a GU guard who does not necessarily want his face redesigned, are you going to back off just a bit on an X guard that you saw throwing vicious punches on television the week before?

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

FuManShoes
12-12-2011, 06:44 AM
In the NHL - at least prior to the kinder, gentler rules they are trying to enforce this year - most teams have (had) one or more enforcers. A few well chosen fights which sometimes seemed to be totally random were enough to put the fear into some opposing players, which allowed the teams with the biggest, baddest enforcers to win some games they probably should not have won. Being big and mean is not unheard of in college BB. Many of the Pitt teams were downright dangerous.

Will the X - Cincy fight hurt or help those teams in the long run? If winning games is your measure of success or failure, I think you can debate both sides. I know that asking such questions is not necessarily consistent with the purity of amateur sports that the NCAA is all about, but I wonder. If you are a GU guard who does not necessarily want his face redesigned, are you going to back off just a bit on an X guard that you saw throwing vicious punches on television the week before?

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

Intimidation be damned. It's interesting you mention NHL's fight culture, which gets a major bruising in a recent NY Times series chronicling the death of enforcer Derek Boogaard. Read it (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/06/sports/hockey/derek-boogaard-a-brain-going-bad.html)and tell us if there's any place for bare-fisted brawling in team sports.

75Zag
12-12-2011, 07:07 AM
In case I was not clear, I do not celebrate or endorse violence in or out of sports. My question was more basic, i.e., from this point forward are players on other NCAA teams going to treat X or Cincy players as if they were a cobra in the corner of the room, now that they know what (idiot like) behavior they are capable of? I would. And might that result in players refraining from "in your face" play against X or Cincy players? It would me.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

FuManShoes
12-12-2011, 07:13 AM
In case I was not clear, I do not celebrate or endorse violence in or out of sports. My question was more basic, i.e., from this point forward are players on other NCAA teams going to treat X or Cincy players as if they were a cobra in the corner of the room, now that they know what (idiot like) behavior they are capable of? I would. And might that result in players refraining from "in your face" play against X or Cincy players? It would me.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

I hear that. In the case of the Zags I don't think it's an issue. We've already played the punks from Cincy and gotten beat up by other tough teams (at least figuratively speaking). I don't think Zag guards are intimidated by physical play. I do think they are forcing entry passes and that worries me more than someone shying away from contact.

tobizag
12-12-2011, 07:30 AM
can someone with a law degree speak to this question:

if a bunch of guys were playing bball on a city court that was coincidentally in the field of vision of a security camera, and this exact fight went down, there'd be no question that charges of assault would be filed.

why is it the case that a basketball jersey changes this? i read on espn that a prosecutor is considering charges, but i'm confused as to how fights that occur between athletes on fields (or courts) of play are viewed as different under the law.

webspinnre
12-12-2011, 07:45 AM
No law degree here, but the only thing I can think of is difficulty ascertaining instigation vs. self-defense. Of course, that would apply equally to the city court example you give.

tobizag
12-12-2011, 08:03 AM
No law degree here, but the only thing I can think of is difficulty ascertaining instigation vs. self-defense. Of course, that would apply equally to the city court example you give.

yes, that certainly may color the length or severity of punishment for those involved, but as you pointed out, whether i start the fight or end it, if my fist hits another guys face i will be prosecuted...unless it was absolutely some case of a guy breaking into my home and attacking me.

Zag 77
12-12-2011, 09:24 AM
A prosecutor might charge assault, but it has probably to be more than a slap. Once all hell breaks loose the defense will argue self-defense. It has to be pretty clear cut. It also probably depends on what the schools and their conferences/NCAA do.

The track record of prosecution in hockey fights is not very good. Theory is one thing, but putting resources into a case with doubtful results is something else. That is why there is such a thing as prosecutorial discretion. Juries don't like to convict in sports fights.

Hoopaholic
12-12-2011, 10:02 AM
self defense arugement for many of the actions I saw would be laughed at...

it is not self defense to come up behind someone and sucker punch them

it is not self defense to come 25 feet away and stomp on a mans facial regiona while he is on the ground in a pre-natal posture

it is not self defense to come 20 feet off the end of the bench, circle around behind the basket and start punching someone from behind

it is not self defense to shove aside a coach who is restraining you so that you can climb back into the fracas to throw more punches

imminent danger means right here right now and you have a right to protect yourself or others during an imminent danger situation but much of what I saw doesnt apply

....it is not imminent danger if you re-engage when other recourses are available to you (such as walking away, leaving, being restrained) and the amount of force used should be reasonable to STOP the physical assault on you or someone else

primal23
12-12-2011, 10:05 AM
Don't renew the games with X. They have shown with this that they want to win games more then give players punishment. Bunch of scum and thugs, not worth it.

Timeout!
12-12-2011, 10:24 AM
self defense arugement for many of the actions I saw would be laughed at...

it is not self defense to come up behind someone and sucker punch them

it is not self defense to come 25 feet away and stomp on a mans facial regiona while he is on the ground in a pre-natal posture

it is not self defense to come 20 feet off the end of the bench, circle around behind the basket and start punching someone from behind

it is not self defense to shove aside a coach who is restraining you so that you can climb back into the fracas to throw more punches

imminent danger means right here right now and you have a right to protect yourself or others during an imminent danger situation but much of what I saw doesnt apply

....it is not imminent danger if you re-engage when other recourses are available to you (such as walking away, leaving, being restrained) and the amount of force used should be reasonable to STOP the physical assault on you or someone else

Great point, Hoop.

The insane thing is...all the actions above get you a maximum of 4 games, yet mostly 1 or 2 games.

Does anyone recall when Coach Few suspended Coach Hernandez for one game -- a player at the time -- for slamming a basketball against the ground during an away game? Or how about when the team suspended a player for an entire season after getting caught with a recreational drug off-campus? I could only imagine what Mike Roth & Coach Few would decide if our guys acted in a similar manner. Even if you take the fight out of the picture, I have a feeling our Coaches would be suspending players for what they said in a Press Conference, then again, our Coaches would never allow them to be sitting there in the first place following a brawl or any incident for that matter.

And as someone mentioned earlier, yes, I'd be a little nervous playing at Xavier. They'll talk trash to your Coaches & Players all game long and if you utter one word in return, even "please shut up", they're going to ambush you b/c they "tough guy gangstas" and don't "take any disrespect from anyone".

Could opposing teams/programs boycott playing AT Xavier if they completely disagree with the way their institution and Coaches have handled such an occurrence? Has that ever happened? Couldn't a team claim they don't wish to play in a 'hostile environment where a team could potentially freak out at any minute and even attempt to punch your Coaches, let alone your players'? Sounds crazy, but is it? They were up 23 pts, yet still started the fight. What if Gonzaga was going to win in their arena? Watch your back. I watched Dez Wells hit two players and even attempt to knock-out a Cincy Coach in the corner...that is messed up, yet only a slap on the wrist for the 18 yr old. Pathetic.

Will Xavier ever be the same in your eyes? Not mine. While this may "blow over" in the media and the fans after this season, I have a feeling other schools/coaches/administrators will never forget. It wasn't just an embarrassment for Xavier/Cincy, it affected all College hoops in a way, even creating unnecessary racial tensions amongst some. This is why the NBA was different in mind. At least Cinncinati listed 4 primary players and suspended them the same amount and for a much longer time(6 games) than Xavier's suspensions. Heck I feel 6 is too short, yet Xavier doesn't have one player who will miss a game past the month of December. They will be full-strength vs Gonzaga and we play them in 2 wks. Could this nation-wide perception have an impact on Xavier's future scheduling with other schools? Who wants to play AT Xavier now?

GoZags
12-12-2011, 10:28 AM
I clearly remember Alex's situation.

And the season long suspension of Theo Davis (caught with a roach* in his pocket during the Heytvelt arrest) really tells the tale in my opinion.

asoc
12-12-2011, 10:41 AM
The officials at Xavier are cowards.

Their players clearly started this whole incident (made it physical) and they are too focused on the money and prestige of having a successful basketball team to deal with this appropriately.

Doesn't surprise me much. NCAA is all about the money too. College football and basketball make millions(billions?) of dollars for the NCAA and its member schools and conferences.

rennis
12-12-2011, 11:12 AM
Few's suspension of Hernandez after the gaffe against NM was a perfect example of the "Zero Tolerance" policy he has for unsportsmanlike behavior at GU.

I really don't know what I'd do if I was in the administration at Xavier, but first things first I would reprimand every kid on that podium after the game and make it abundantly clear that sitting in front of the media and pretending to be a thug-life kid who looks at games like a boxing or MMA match is very, very, very unacceptable.

DixieZag
12-12-2011, 11:22 AM
If it were GU - and say it happened during a theoretical GU/UW game and lets say Sacre is Tu and Harris is the other X star and they played the exact same roles, same "body bags" talk, same interview after the game . . . . .

I know it is impossible to imagine Sacre/Harris talking like that but in the above scenario does ANYONE doubt that it would have been the last game for the senior and last game of the year at least for the junior??

Moreover, would there not be a very very serious discussion about the season itself?

I know it is really almost impossible to imagine b/c we can't imagine anyone who Few ever recruited behaving like that, but if. . .

tobizag
12-12-2011, 11:29 AM
Great point, Hoop.

The insane thing is...all the actions above get you a maximum of 4 games, yet mostly 1 or 2 games.

Does anyone recall when Coach Few suspended Coach Hernandez for one game -- a player at the time -- for slamming a basketball against the ground during an away game? Or how about when the team suspended a player for an entire season after getting caught with a recreational drug off-campus? I could only imagine what Mike Roth & Coach Few would decide if our guys acted in a similar manner. Even if you take the fight out of the picture, I have a feeling our Coaches would be suspending players for what they said in a Press Conference, then again, our Coaches would never allow them to be sitting there in the first place following a brawl or any incident for that matter.

And as someone mentioned earlier, yes, I'd be a little nervous playing at Xavier. They'll talk trash to your Coaches & Players all game long and if you utter one word in return, even "please shut up", they're going to ambush you b/c they "tough guy gangstas" and don't "take any disrespect from anyone".

Could opposing teams/programs boycott playing AT Xavier if they completely disagree with the way their institution and Coaches have handled such an occurrence? Has that ever happened? Couldn't a team claim they don't wish to play in a 'hostile environment where a team could potentially freak out at any minute and even attempt to punch your Coaches, let alone your players'? Sounds crazy, but is it? They were up 23 pts, yet still started the fight. What if Gonzaga was going to win in their arena? Watch your back. I watched Dez Wells hit two players and even attempt to knock-out a Cincy Coach in the corner...that is messed up, yet only a slap on the wrist for the 18 yr old. Pathetic.

Will Xavier ever be the same in your eyes? Not mine. While this may "blow over" in the media and the fans after this season, I have a feeling other schools/coaches/administrators will never forget. It wasn't just an embarrassment for Xavier/Cincy, it affected all College hoops in a way, even creating unnecessary racial tensions amongst some. This is why the NBA was different in mind. At least Cinncinati listed 4 primary players and suspended them the same amount and for a much longer time(6 games) than Xavier's suspensions. Heck I feel 6 is too short, yet Xavier doesn't have one player who will miss a game past the month of December. They will be full-strength vs Gonzaga and we play them in 2 wks. Could this nation-wide perception have an impact on Xavier's future scheduling with other schools? Who wants to play AT Xavier now?

thank you, TO, for this post. i very much appreciated your comments.

i'd be all in favor of schools on their remaining schedule petitioning the ncaa to remove Xavier from the slate.

in terms of what the coaches should do...my hope would be that anyone who acted like that on the court or spoke like that after the game, and did so as a scholarship athlete at gonzaga university, would be removed from the team indefinitely. they should be required to go to counseling, much like josh and theo were, but for different reasons clearly. IF the counselor, after a significant amount of time, feels they have rehabilitated, then we could have a discussion around reinstatement. given how few and roth handled the josh situation, i doubt anyone acting like that at gonzaga would ever play for us again, especially upperclassmen.

DixieZag
12-12-2011, 11:33 AM
Great point, Hoop.

The insane thing is...all the actions above get you a maximum of 4 games, yet mostly 1 or 2 games.

Does anyone recall when Coach Few suspended Coach Hernandez for one game -- a player at the time -- for slamming a basketball against the ground during an away game? Or how about when the team suspended a player for an entire season after getting caught with a recreational drug off-campus? I could only imagine what Mike Roth & Coach Few would decide if our guys acted in a similar manner. Even if you take the fight out of the picture, I have a feeling our Coaches would be suspending players for what they said in a Press Conference, then again, our Coaches would never allow them to be sitting there in the first place following a brawl or any incident for that matter.

And as someone mentioned earlier, yes, I'd be a little nervous playing at Xavier. They'll talk trash to your Coaches & Players all game long and if you utter one word in return, even "please shut up", they're going to ambush you b/c they "tough guy gangstas" and don't "take any disrespect from anyone".

Could opposing teams/programs boycott playing AT Xavier if they completely disagree with the way their institution and Coaches have handled such an occurrence? Has that ever happened? Couldn't a team claim they don't wish to play in a 'hostile environment where a team could potentially freak out at any minute and even attempt to punch your Coaches, let alone your players'? Sounds crazy, but is it? They were up 23 pts, yet still started the fight. What if Gonzaga was going to win in their arena? Watch your back. I watched Dez Wells hit two players and even attempt to knock-out a Cincy Coach in the corner...that is messed up, yet only a slap on the wrist for the 18 yr old. Pathetic.

Will Xavier ever be the same in your eyes? Not mine. While this may "blow over" in the media and the fans after this season, I have a feeling other schools/coaches/administrators will never forget. It wasn't just an embarrassment for Xavier/Cincy, it affected all College hoops in a way, even creating unnecessary racial tensions amongst some. This is why the NBA was different in mind. At least Cinncinati listed 4 primary players and suspended them the same amount and for a much longer time(6 games) than Xavier's suspensions. Heck I feel 6 is too short, yet Xavier doesn't have one player who will miss a game past the month of December. They will be full-strength vs Gonzaga and we play them in 2 wks. Could this nation-wide perception have an impact on Xavier's future scheduling with other schools? Who wants to play AT Xavier now?

At THIS point, the "punishment/response" is at least as big an embarrassment as the actual fight. I think it is a very very good question about whether a team that opposses X's handling of the situation could/should back out of a game at Xavier b/c of moral opposition to the lack of punishment. Could Few, disgusted with X's 1-4 game suspensions, just say "forget it, we're not coming b/c we reject the lack of serious response and are not playing out of protest"

I really don't want to play them, mostly b/c I see a program completely out of control. At every point, from the moment of the fight (which they started), they have chosen the WRONG response, from the comments to the announcers, to the press conference and now the "suspensions" - which equal half of that levied on a guy on our team who played some 4 games in his teens with a semi-pro team. It seems that the wheels have completely fallen off over there and their lack of embarrassment/remorse/introspection is just unbelievable, would any of us want to see a player like Tu (if he did that at GU) again in our uniform?

Zagobserver
12-12-2011, 11:45 AM
If you have twitter, he's almost required reading. So funny, and yet, so right.

"Love the NCAA rule in hoops: get in a fight, one game suspension. Tim Abromaitis plays in two exhibition games, four game suspension. Yikes.

Tu Holloway plays in a basketball game, suspended for one game. Tu Holloway helps instigate a fight, suspended for one game. Discuss.

Vandy's Festus Ezeli takes a free meal, six game suspension. Cincy's Yancy Gates opens up an opponent's skull, six game suspension. Yikes.

I cannot imagine the suspension if Tim Abromaitis had eaten a bagel with cream cheese at halftime of the exhibition games. Oh, the humanity!"

HillBillyZag
12-12-2011, 11:48 AM
And why have the Jesuits there been so lacking in any comment on the incident or the slap on the wrist justice? Im' almost sure if that took place here there would have been season long suspensions or even expulsions?

Timeout!
12-12-2011, 12:28 PM
And why have the Jesuits there been so lacking in any comment on the incident or the slap on the wrist justice? Im' almost sure if that took place here there would have been season long suspensions or even expulsions?

Xavier University President Michael. J. Graham, S.J. released this statement in response to the incident:

"Xavier University takes very seriously the unsportsmanlike events which occurred at the close of today's Crosstown Shootout. This behavior was not representative of Xavier's standards and has no place in intercollegiate athletics. Our basketball program is expected to, and has for so many years now, represented the highest ideals of sportsmanship and ethical conduct. We are reviewing the incident in its entirety and, in conjunction with the Atlantic 10 Conference, will take appropriate action. We regret that this incident happened and apologize to our loyal fans, the Xavier family and the entire Cincinnati community."

75Zag
12-12-2011, 12:36 PM
Xavier University President Michael. J. Graham, S.J. released this statement in response to the incident:

"Xavier University takes very seriously the unsportsmanlike events which occurred at the close of today's Crosstown Shootout. This behavior was not representative of Xavier's standards and has no place in intercollegiate athletics. Our basketball program is expected to, and has for so many years now, represented the highest ideals of sportsmanship and ethical conduct. We are reviewing the incident in its entirety and, in conjunction with the Atlantic 10 Conference, will take appropriate action. We regret that this incident happened and apologize to our loyal fans, the Xavier family and the entire Cincinnati community."

Am I the only person who thinks that statement looks like it was written by Lindsay Lohan's professional management team?

Jesuits should know and do better.
Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

rennis
12-12-2011, 02:22 PM
I'm just glad Xavier University President Michael. J. Graham, S.J. isn't also doing a spread in Playboy magazine.

Lohan is bad enough.

75Zag
12-12-2011, 02:48 PM
I'm just glad Xavier University President Michael. J. Graham, S.J. isn't also doing a spread in Playboy magazine.

Lohan is bad enough.

The lovely Mrs. '75 has put me on triple secret probation and prohibited me from publishing any further comments until after the ORAL roberts game. Otherwise, well, you know, I might be inappropriate for the first time in my life.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

willandi
12-12-2011, 03:02 PM
Perhaps Gonzaga University should respectfully inform both Xavier and the NCAA that they are removing that game from this seasons schedule. There is too much danger to OUR student athletes to allow them to participate.
Seems that the the Zags might be given a forfeit, but the ensuing outcry from the media and other coaches at other schools would hopefully cause that to be reversed.
When X was scheduled, it was with the understanding that it was for a basketball game. I, for one, having listened to the press conference afterward, don't believe that the Xavier players are capable of self restraint.
If Pangos talks a little smack, under his breath, at Holloway, what will be the result?

DixieZag
12-12-2011, 03:10 PM
The statement made on Saturday by the President of the University now becomes completely meaningless given the "punishment" given out, and the general "business as usual" treatment of the incident.

I have a hard time believing the Jesuits at X would allow the BB team make them look as bad as it has, unless they truly were not engaged enough to understand how bad they look, which would be a failure in and of itself. Because the administration will not (as yet, anyway) stand up and hold themselves more accountable, I find them complicit in the behavior and ultimately, responsible.

I would actually favor a boycott of the game by GU in protest. Don't know how it would go over and maybe it would be the worst way to deal with it, I just don't want to be on the same floor as them, makes me feel dirty by association.

Zag 77
12-12-2011, 03:38 PM
I am pretty sure when these games are scheduled, contracts are signed. You don't lightly break contracts. Even if that is not the case, you don't want to get a reputation for welshing out on a scheduled game.

The comment from Xavier's President makes me wonder when it was issued. I wonder if X's administration has closed the books on this incident.

75Zag
12-12-2011, 03:43 PM
OK, I broke loose from the lovely Mrs. '75 for a few moments.

Here is the actual press release from the SJ's at X before it was re-processed by Lindsay Lohan's management staff:

"We have our lips affixed to the sweet, sweet flow of money that flows from the nipple of the X basketball program, and until that stops, our coach and players can do whatever they want."

Hopefully GU won't go there, but to be absolutely honest I have no idea what the future may hold.

Go Bulldogs! Get Bigger!

ZagMan in Philly
12-12-2011, 04:13 PM
This article pretty much said it all...

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=pf-cincinnati_xavier_players_suspensions_121111

scott257
12-13-2011, 07:18 AM
The NCAA is pretty much an embarrassment. We have a player sitting out eight games for a rule that is no longer in effect and the NCAA doesn't act to ensure the suspensions handed out in the aftermath of this brawl reflect the serious damage this type of behavior has on the sport? I grew up an Oregon football fan and was embarrassed when Blount threw that punch. In hindsight, he probably should only have had to sit out one game, but Oregon hasn't sunk into the gutter with the SEC (yet). These schools are making decisions based on the financial impact that long suspensions might have on their programs. They no longer care about the sport, the kids that follow the sport, and their integrity suffers. It is very much like the suspensions handed down by LSU for players involved in bar fights and those that were using synthetic marijuana.

Schools with class should part ways with the NCAA and establish a program that has higher standards.

Timeout!
12-13-2011, 07:24 AM
When X was scheduled, it was with the understanding that it was for a basketball game. I, for one, having listened to the press conference afterward, don't believe that the Xavier players are capable of self restraint.

If Pangos talks a little smack, under his breath, at Holloway, what will be the result?

Slightly OT, yet as innocent and endearing Pangos appears off the court, I've been told he's known for a little trash talk on the court. Probably not much going on the last couple games though...

bartruff1
12-13-2011, 07:40 AM
I hear that. In the case of the Zags I don't think it's an issue. We've already played the punks from Cincy and gotten beat up by other tough teams (at least figuratively speaking). I don't think Zag guards are intimidated by physical play. I do think they are forcing entry passes and that worries me more than someone shying away from contact. It would be quite a statement to actually cancel the game...I think that would be terrific...but having been on probation a number of times, it can scare hell out of you and does improve your behavior. I think we should start dissing them in the media right now and when the game starts every Gonzaga player should commit a hard foul (heat check) and start talking trash. I remember getting out on bail in Mexico and taking crap from everyone and walking on eggs till I got across the border...then I gave them the finger and started talking tough...

Reborn
12-13-2011, 08:02 AM
What I think would be great would be for ESPN to not show the game and to take back the money that Xavior would make for televising the game. This may have been the most important non conference game of the year, or second behind Michigan St at K2. I'd be more than willing to not see that game and hit Xavier where it hurts most, in their pocketbook.

Or maybe yet have the sponsors of that show threaten to take away the money that they spend on having that game televised.

No! Its sad to say that neither of those two things will happen. As is now well known, we've become a nation where the most important value is money. Making a million is the most important thing here. Forget about integity. Forget about honor. And you wonder what is happening to our youth? Ha ha ha ha haa Wake up America.

bballguy
12-13-2011, 09:42 AM
I got fed up with the thought that nothing would change so I called the president at Xavier and left a message with his secretary. I told her as an educator I was disappointed in the message they were sending to young people. She apologized (sincerely) and said the president would read all of the messages and was understanding now how far reaching their decision was.
Call them. Express your disgust. 1-513-745-3502

jim77
12-13-2011, 09:44 AM
I wish they would cancel the game. I'd gladly take the forfeit. At minumum, I'd request Ohio state troopers man our bench for safety reasons.

DixieZag
12-13-2011, 12:04 PM
I got fed up with the thought that nothing would change so I called the president at Xavier and left a message with his secretary. I told her as an educator I was disappointed in the message they were sending to young people. She apologized (sincerely) and said the president would read all of the messages and was understanding now how far reaching their decision was.
Call them. Express your disgust. 1-513-745-3502

A very telling statement from the secretary. Admitting that they had no idea how bad the situation was until the response from around the country. Two things we can take away from that. One - they watched it and didn't die of embarrassment on the spot and start demanding meetings witht the BB coach and AD and dictating what was going to happen, so they must have though that it wasn't THAT bad. Two - they ARE now figuring out how bad it was and are probably suffering late embarrassment but may still well be open to hearing from others and are not done with the situation.

Calling is an excellent idea. Tell them we are Jesuit alum and are extremely disappointed. I don't want this game.

And I am sure we have LOTS of players that "chirp" during a game, THAT is part of the game, in fact I'll bet St. Davie Stockton is one of the worst offenders, just like his Dad was, its called gamesmanship, you try to provoke a reaction, a hard foul or something, it is a challenge of the other teams disipline, every team does it and most teams deal with it by either playing harder or ignoring it - that is toughness!

Fonebone
12-13-2011, 12:18 PM
Regarding the question above if teams that play these guys in the future will be intimidated and less likely to get into it with them.

I think the effect could just be the opposite. As I understand it, if you throw a punch in a second game, you are out for the season. If I were playing against them, my thought would be that it would be very, very hard to do anything to get these guys to throw a punch again.

Of course, if I were playing them, they would not have to slug me. They could knock me over with a finger.

zagfan1970
12-13-2011, 02:09 PM
The NCAA hasn't voiced an opinion yet, but if they do it will no doubt be about Gates.

I'm surprised that we didn't play better in the last two games. Something seems way off. Maybe the X game will provide focus and fire for the players and the coaches.

They are still trying to figure out how much to reduce the suspension of Guy-Landy Edi, then they claim they will have time to sort out the Cincinnati-Xavier fiasco! I heard they are voting to reduce it to 5 games, but they are waiting for a mail-in vote that should be back Friday morning!!! Lets cross our fingers.

Zag4Hire
12-13-2011, 03:47 PM
On a side note, I am glad to have BYU as a fellow WCC team. They seem to be one of the exceptions in college sports. They uphold their university's honor code when most of society mocks it as some draconian rule. The result being Davies, who seems like a super kid, feels he needs to live up to his commitment.

awberke
12-13-2011, 05:42 PM
On a side note, I am glad to have BYU as a fellow WCC team. They seem to be one of the exceptions in college sports. They uphold their university's honor code when most of society mocks it as some draconian rule. The result being Davies, who seems like a super kid, feels he needs to live up to his commitment.

You are very right. And guess what, people criticized BYU for that as well.

If you ask me though, better to have it BYU's way than Xavier's.

Xavier06
12-15-2011, 10:31 AM
From an XU fan's perspective: I am not condoning Tu Holloway's taunting but trash talk is part of the game. Holloway did not punch anyone and it was UC players who first started throwing punches. The suspensions that were given out were harsher than what most schools have done in the past. Last year Brittney Griner got two games for breaking a girl's nose. In 2007, Wyoming and New Mexico players just got the minimum one game for a fight. BYU's players just had ejections for this game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=798-q4Y1u_Y

Fights happen. You move on and learn from it. I can't tell you why this one has triggered such a nerve.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/blog/_/name/bilas_jay/id/7349045/the-xavier-cincinnati-fight-force-ncaa-reexamine-rules-ncb

If you have espn insider this is a decent article.

raise the zag
12-15-2011, 10:55 AM
Fights happen. You move on and learn from it. I can't tell you why this one has triggered such a nerve.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/blog/_/name/bilas_jay/id/7349045/the-xavier-cincinnati-fight-force-ncaa-reexamine-rules-ncb

Yeah, once a decade or less they happen. The article just said as much and you posted a clip of fight circa 1985(27 yrs ago) to justify X's players actions? Well played. You sound a lot like Coach Mack...excuse after excuse. Xavier just made the history books -- congrats.

Keep up the good fight. See you guys New Years Eve; hoping the Zags bring police escorts with them.

1973Zag
12-15-2011, 11:09 AM
Always thought Jesuit schools held themselves to higher conduct standards than the average- apparently not! Just win baby

bartruff1
12-15-2011, 11:09 AM
You are very right. And guess what, people criticized BYU for that as well.

If you ask me though, better to have it BYU's way than Xavier's.

Not me...no way...I would rather fight...any day...every day....

Xavier06
12-15-2011, 11:09 AM
Yeah, once a decade or less they happen. The article just said as much and you posted a clip of fight circa 1985(27 yrs ago) to justify X's players actions? Well played. You sound a lot like Coach Mack...excuse after excuse. Xavier just made the history books -- congrats.

Keep up the good fight. See you guys New Years Eve; hoping the Zags bring police escorts with them.

Did you read anything i wrote? I did not make an excuse. Tu taunted the UC players and things escalated from there. Though not a good thing, fights happen. They happen every year and will continue to happen. I made reference to the BYU fight because of the previous post. Xavier's and Cincinnati's punishments were in line, if not harsher than what other players have been given for other fights.

Xavier06
12-15-2011, 11:12 AM
Gonzaga runs a quality program. Your players will be able to deal with trash talk and probably do it themselves. I remember when XU last played Gonzaga, Adam Morrison talked quite a bit.

1973Zag
12-15-2011, 11:13 AM
so then two wrongs do make a right?

Xavier06
12-15-2011, 11:16 AM
What is wrong with trash talk? It happens in every sport at every level. It is part of the game. If it bothers you, then it is working.

1973Zag
12-15-2011, 11:19 AM
trash talk on the court is one thing, trash talk After the game,AT a press conference is another

bartruff1
12-15-2011, 11:19 AM
One distinction is that, to my knowledge, none of our players has talked trash to the media before and after the game...none ever bragged about being a gangster...I don't recall, Gonzaga ever being in a brawl ... there is just no equivalence....there is a serious problem there and the Administration needs to fix it...sooner, rather than later...

Xavier06
12-15-2011, 11:22 AM
One distinction is that, to my knowledge, none of our players has talked trash to the media before and after the game...none ever bragged about being a gangster...I don't recall, Gonzaga every being in a brawl ... there is just no equivalence....there is a serious problem there and the Administration needs to fix it...sooner, rather than later...

Could not agree more. The gangster comment was taken out of context and XU players were not talking to the media before the shootout, but Mack will have to reel them in a bit.

Hoopaholic
12-15-2011, 11:37 AM
First and foremost it is my belief that anyone who throws a punch, slaps someone or does other intentional bodily injury or harm to any person should be held accountable...be it on a basketball court or on the sidewalk, in a house or at work

Xavier your reflection on the incident appears to me to sidestep FACTS of what occured

Tru SLAPPED a player and this started the incident. In addition he went back several times INTO the fray swinging..just because they didnt land doesnt mean he failed to have clear malicous intent to do harm to someone

The gang statement is NOT being taken out of context. I have watched the entire news conference twice now and each time gut wrenching, ill to my stomach feelings overwhelmed me......These representatives of the school, set before the media by the adminsitration continued to flaunt what transpired with NO remorse, no pause for reflection instead it was adding gasoline to a fire that was already out of control.

With that said, I firmly believe that ANY player, coach or team member who made ANY type of physical action short of restraining someone should be done for the year

With that said Jesuits and schools directly tied to the Jesuit tradition, belief, ideology need to ensure a zero tolerance for this type of violent behavior and simply speaking I was HOPING and PRAYING that X university would stand above "what everyone else has done in the past" and stood on principals and moral fibers but that did not occur and has put a black mark against the university in my book which is sad

Angelo Roncalli
12-15-2011, 12:19 PM
Gonzaga runs a quality program. Your players will be able to deal with trash talk and probably do it themselves. I remember when XU last played Gonzaga, Adam Morrison talked quite a bit.

You've got a faulty memory, then. Gonzaga beat Xavier last year 64-54 on 12/22.

raise the zag
12-15-2011, 12:34 PM
You've got a faulty memory, then. Gonzaga beat Xavier last year 64-54 on 12/22.

I'm glad you bring that up, AR. Its quite intriguing reading their message board as not one poster seems to remember -- or recognize -- the double-digit loss at Gonzaga just last season. They only discuss(or admit?) the NCAA game 5 yrs ago, as the Zag 'got the benefit of Ammo's star power from the refs', etc etc. Most of their threads discuss an undefeated season, when they get to the Final Four, complains on why Gonzaga gets love form the media, and the harshness of recent suspensions. If you think I'm making any of this up, visit Xavierhoops.com and see for yourself. Pretty surreal stuff, actually. Always complaining about media envy via Butler, Gonzaga, Memphis, etc -- or that they are the #1 program in the mid-west and deserve to be recognized like others, pretty tiring to read.

Xavier06
12-15-2011, 03:36 PM
I was at the game, Tu did not lay a hand on Guyn. No one who was at the game said he did. He would have been suspended for longer if that was the case. The gangster quote was referring to being tough on the court. While those words may not be part of your vernacular, that was the intended meaning. Still a terrible choice of words.

As far as the expectations from X fans this year, they are high as X is stacked this year. There is a reason that a lot of basketball analyst are picking Xavier for the final four

BTW, i didn't come over to insult your fan base, just friendly conversation.

a13coach
12-15-2011, 04:02 PM
I was at the game, Tu did not lay a hand on Guyn. No one who was at the game said he did. He would have been suspended for longer if that was the case. The gangster quote was referring to being tough on the court. While those words may not be part of your vernacular, that was the intended meaning. Still a terrible choice of words.

As far as the expectations from X fans this year, they are high as X is stacked this year. There is a reason that a lot of basketball analyst are picking Xavier for the final four

BTW, i didn't come over to insult your fan base, just friendly conversation.

You sure about that? Did you miss this post earlier in this thread?
http://www.guboards.com/showpost.php?p=708126&postcount=17
Watch the video, it shows more than the media is portraying and sheds a bit more light on those expectant fans.

willandi
12-15-2011, 04:14 PM
If that was Tu, center front, he either slapped him down or pushed him down. There should be a rule ala NBA, you leave the bench automatic one game suspension. All the fans cheering and trying to escalate a bad situation by their taunting, jeering etc., should also be suspended for one game, they can be identified by their seats.
I am not Black, or inner city, but understand the gangsta reference, no matter how, after the fact, they try to fill it in with crayons to make it seem something it isn't. That in and of itself should have resulted in a lengthy suspension.
I would prefer to cancel the game. We contracted to play a Basketball Team, not gangsta's. They would be the ones in breach of contract, as I see it. NCAA needs to step up and do SOMETHING!??!

zagfan24
12-15-2011, 04:29 PM
My fiancee got me tickets for the GU-Xavier game for Christmas (she told me ahead of time so I didn't make other New Years Plans). Probably unwise to wear my GU stuff there...gonna have to go as an incognito Zag fan.

Spike94
12-15-2011, 04:33 PM
Two things. Video doesn't lie. Tu hit first. Second, as a high school teacher, I know what gangster means. You can gloss it over all you want. There was no other context to take it as. In the end there is no doubt that Tu should have been suspended for a lot longer than he was. There is nothing you can say to make me believe otherwise. It was a classless act by Tu during and after the game, and an even more classless act by Xavier to not do more in terms of punishment. And don't think I am saying this because you play us later in the year. I was one who thought in the beginning that Josh should have been kicked completely out of the program for his mushroom incident because of the black eye it gave our program. In the end I am glad we gave him a second chance, but I will never believe that Tu only deserved a one game suspension.

BuckNut
12-17-2011, 04:44 PM
Before I respond to some of the comments in the this thread, I want to establish some credibility. Yes, this is my first post on the board, but I've been lurking here for a long time. This is simply the first time I've found reason to insert myself on a board where I ordinarily have nothing valuable to say. A native of Columbus, I am a diehard Buckeyes fan (hence BuckNut), but I've always followed Ohio's other programs, including Cincinnati, Xavier, Dayton, OU, and Miami. Since Gonzaga's Elite 8 run in 1999, I've followed your program pretty consistently, mainly because I absolutely love seeing Davids slay Goliath, and few programs even rival Gonzaga in this department; in fact, Xavier and Butler are probably the programs with valid arguments. For this reason, I am a casual fan of Gonzaga, Butler, AND Xavier. I regularly read the messageboards of these programs. I also intermittently follow CAA and Missouri Valley teams.

I generally hate BCS dominance, which admittedly makes my loyalty to the Buckeyes somewhat ironic. It was bred into me though, and I cannot escape it. It's also because OSU is my alma mater, and you gotta dance with the one that brung ya. I am a 2004 graduate of OSU and a 2009 graduate of OSU Law School (Moritz). As a diehard Buckeye fan and casual Xavier fan, I'll even admit that Xavier was robbed in the 2007 tourney and that Thad Matta, who I love as a coach, left Xavier in a completely slimy way. That's the impact of money in D1 athletics ...

That said, the reaction of Zags fans on this board to the Cincy-Xavier brawl is nothing short of laughable. There was a fight, yes. It was an unfortunate, unacceptable, violent, and undisciplined display. Were Tu Holloway's and Mark Lyons' words poor in the post-game press conference? Yes, they worded their responses terribly, in a way which reflected poorly on the university and college athletics; they deserved punishment for their remarks (At the same time, their poor word choice was taken COMPLETELY out of context; see this link - http://rushthecourt.net/2011/12/16/the-other-26-week-four-2/). All told, the fight demanded swift punishment. Did the punishment fit the crime? Personally, I would have given longer suspensions, but I'm not a college administrator, coach, or athletic conference commissioner, and I'm not going to criticize.

Now, the question is, does this fight typify the Xavier program, this Xavier team, or Xavier University such that state troopers would be needed at a game between Xavier and Gonzaga or such that persons with no connection to the University should be placing phone calls to Xavier's president's office to complain? For crying out loud, NO! Frankly, these responses make you simply seem afraid to play a team which is likely to beat you, and you're looking to make excuses. Frankly, it's a little pathetic.

For as long as I can remember, Xavier has been winning. The Musketeers were one of the original giant-killers, with memorable NCAA upsets in the mid to late 80s, through 90s, and into the 2000s such that now they are a highly successful and valuable program. At the same time, Xavier has always been winning the right way - they've run a tight ship with strict rules, even expelling great players (see Lloyd Price and Aaron Turner) when they needed them or suspending great players even if it required sitting them for NCAA tournament games (see DeWaun Rose and Pete Sears); Xavier has graduated every senior for the past 20 years and have one of the top 2 or 3 graduation rates in all of D1 basketball; they've taken chances on kids with rough backgrounds and have developed them into solid men (see Anthony Myles and Lenny Brown); they have team Mass before every game and stress the importance of God in one's life; they have a full-time tutor for the team, Sister Rose Fleming, who follows each player's class schedule and syllabus, ensures their completion of all assignments, and verifies their perfect attendance in class. Starting center, Kenny Frease, was even suspended earlier this year, allegedly for missing one class. Bottom line, en masse, Xavier does things the right way, and always has. A solitary fight with a heated rival, while inexcusable, does not completely characterize Xavier's program. It is, moreover, insufficient grounds to justify the ridiculous actions or suggestions of the individuals on this thread. It was an isolated incident in a highly emotional, rivalry game. Would you react similarly if there was a Duke-Carolina brawl and you had to play one shortly thereafter? No, you wouldn't. While fighting is unacceptable, surely you can acknowledge that 20-year-old kids are more likely to allow their emotions to fall out of check when playing their arch-rival in a city that places incredible emphasis on the bragging rights the game provides?

All that said, I would like to address a few of the more ridiculous comments made on this thread ...


Two things. Video doesn't lie. Tu hit first.

I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong. I've watched every video from every angle and Tu just does not hit first, or hit at all. The first contact was made by Guyn, albeit very minor contact. Dezmond Wells initiated the real fighting with his ridiculous shoving of Guyn. A-10 Commissioner Bernadette McGlade has even acknowledged that Tu did not throw a punch or hit anyone. His suspension was purely for trash-talking and his inappropriate comments in the press-conference. And, in fairness to Xavier, this suspension was precedent-setting. There has never been a suspension stemming from trash-talking alone.


Second, as a high school teacher, I know what gangster means.

Yeah, because the hard streets of Spokane expose its public school teachers to the true meaning of the lingo of inner-city African-American kids from all over the country. Spokane is such a haven for gangs and violence, and obviously every kid who calls himself a "gangsta" condones violence (rolling my eyes emphatically). Please excuse me while I go puke ...


You can gloss it over all you want. There was no other context to take it as. In the end there is no doubt that Tu should have been suspended for a lot longer than he was.

Oh please spare me. You just don't want him to play because it exponentially increases the likelihood of a Gonzaga loss.


There is nothing you can say to make me believe otherwise.

That's because you're a homer who cannot see objectively.


I was one who thought in the beginning that Josh should have been kicked completely out of the program for his mushroom incident because of the black eye it gave our program.

Yeah, well, Xavier did kick out its player in a similar situation. Aaron Turner was booted from the team for possession of marijuana, and subsequently left school. Now which program is out of control?

Now, on to this gem of a post ...


I wish they would cancel the game. I'd gladly take the forfeit. At minumum, I'd request Ohio state troopers man our bench for safety reasons.

Again, this just makes you look afraid of another loss after your season has gotten off to an unexpectedly less-than-successful start. Stop making excuses.

Now to my favorite post ...


I got fed up with the thought that nothing would change so I called the president at Xavier and left a message with his secretary. I told her as an educator I was disappointed in the message they were sending to young people. She apologized (sincerely) and said the president would read all of the messages and was understanding now how far reaching their decision was.
Call them. Express your disgust. 1-513-745-3502

Really? Are you from planet Earth? Do you honestly expect anyone to believe that you would have had even the slightest inkling to harass a university's president's office (or encourage others to do so) if it weren't for the fact that your team plays that university in a few weeks? Do you even believe, yourself, that it was a concern about the fight's impact on America's youth that motivated your phone call? I'm sorry, but this does not pass the sniff test. It's not even close.

Don't get me wrong; I love Gonzaga's program, Coach Few, and everything about the program you've built. I will continue to follow as I have for quite some time. But seriously, get off of your high horse. Xavier is a stellar program that had one out-of-character incident. This does not exemplify Xavier's team, the program, or the university. All of this holier-than-thou grandstanding and navel-gazing makes you look like a bunch of bratty children who are looking for an out against a good team. Seriously, grow up.

Thomas_Sutpen
12-17-2011, 05:01 PM
makes you look like petulant children afraid who are looking for an out against a good team. Seriously, grow up.

BuckNut, welcome to the board, and thanks for expressing your opinion. While I agree that some on this board are taking things a bit too far with their criticisms (suggesting we forfeit, for example), I think your conclusion--that we are "looking for an out against a good team"--could not be more wrong.

Why would we want to beat X at less than full strength? If it turns out that Kansas points to beating tOSU as a signature win, I'm sure you would be the first to emphasize that Sullinger didn't play. A "tainted" win, in other words, that shouldn't be taken too seriously. Beating X without Tu and/or other important players would put GU in a no-win situation. If we pulled an upset, it would be because the players weren't in the game, and if we lost, it would be especially humiliating. In neither case would it be a "signature" win for seeding purposes.

Are we likely to beat Xavier at home this New Year's Eve? Probably not. But that's why they play the games.

I appreciate your spirited defense of X, but the sad thing about all this is that such a defense became necessary.

DCZag
12-17-2011, 05:05 PM
Bucknut - you're long winded, and wrong. What X did was reprehensible and there is no excuse - so quit apologizing for them.

We play anyone anywhere - Cincy were thugs when we played them last as well....

sittingon50
12-17-2011, 05:08 PM
I thought your post was pretty well thought out & for the most part reasonably stated. As of this moment there are 9,016 members on this forum. You chose to pretty much quote one as representative.

Whiff.

kitzbuel
12-17-2011, 05:11 PM
All I can say is good luck to your team as our Zags try to beat them regardless of who is on the floor.

JPtheBeasta
12-17-2011, 05:18 PM
That's, like, your opinion man.

Don't gloss over the posts of those that would rather face a full strength team. Sacre completely shut down Frease last year. If we contain Tu (that's a big if) we have a shot to win this one. I think some of the comments in this thread were over the top, but keep in mind that there is a subtext with a beef with the NCAA for suspending Landry 8 games for games he played as a 16 yo, and as far as I know he didn't punch somebody or make surreal, unapologetic comments after a very embarrassing fight in a blowout.

jim77
12-17-2011, 05:29 PM
Dear Mr. Bucknut.

I personally don't have a problem with XU. I'm sure its students and faculty are first rate. I also don't question XU's basketball accomplishments nor doubt TU Holloway is one of the best ball players in the country. I also understand that rivalrys can be full of emotion....we have rivals too..WSU? I even understand the ruckus at the end. (kind of) What I had a problem with is the PRESS COFERENCE....usually after coaches and time/rational thought have had a chance to sink in apologies are usually forth coming/accepted. Instead, I heard comments justifying what happened.(and I don't think I took it out of context) Is there an anger problem here? Why did the coach not council the young man on WHAT to say prior to the conference...it looked and sounded bad. My comment you refered too was my wish that our players not get injured due to poor judgement/relapse. I just wanted our players to be safe....and you're reassurance has certainly helped, thanks for you're point of view and welcome to the Zags board....and I hope for a well played clean game later this month..may the best team win....Jim.

TM27
12-17-2011, 05:54 PM
http://www.fox19.com/story/16279162/fight-ends-crosstown-shootout

The thing that blows my mind is that the media never called out Frease. I love that he is seen crawling to mid court during the fight to avoid all of it. After the fight, seen here, he is trying to fight the female relatives of the Cincy coaches. This guy may be the biggest B in all of sports.

Spike94
12-17-2011, 07:48 PM
Buck,

Thanks for showing me how my opinion was wrong and how I'm only saying what I do because I'm a Homer and how I really don't know what I'm talking about. I'm enlightened now and will keep all your points in mind when I post in the future. I will be such a better person from all that you have said to me. I hope you go to bed tonight knowing that you have made my world a better place.

BuckNut
12-17-2011, 09:59 PM
The thing that blows my mind is that the media never called out Frease. I love that he is seen crawling to mid court during the fight to avoid all of it. After the fight, seen here, he is trying to fight the female relatives of the Cincy coaches. This guy may be the biggest B in all of sports.

What the video doesn't show you is that the woman in the leopard-print coat, Mick Cronin's sister, threw an empty water bottle at Kenny as he was walking off the court, and then proceeded to scream that he and his teammates were a bunch of thugs. Kenny was pointing to his eye asking, "And what does this make your players?" Kenny had every reason to challenge the woman. Moreover, he did nothing during the fight other than try to separate people, and he got pummeled for doing so. All you need to know about Kenny Frease is revealed in the following article:

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/xavier/2011/12/14/frease-i-never-wanted-to-press-charges/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


What I had a problem with is the PRESS COFERENCE....usually after coaches and time/rational thought have had a chance to sink in apologies are usually forth coming/accepted. Instead, I heard comments justifying what happened.(and I don't think I took it out of context) Is there an anger problem here? Why did the coach not council the young man on WHAT to say prior to the conference...it looked and sounded bad.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this point, and Chris Mack has both publicly acknowledged his error and apologized for it. It was a huge, huge, huge mistake to allow Tu and Mark to speak publicly at a press conference only minutes after an on-court melee of this nature. Clearly the anger and frustration were still fresh, and their words reflected that. There unquestionably needed to be a much longer cooling-off period before allowing players to give the media ANY soundbyte whatsoever. Chris Mack has called it one of, if not the greatest mistake he's ever made as a coach. Both Tu and Mark independently requested an opportunity to publicly apologize for the trash talking, fighting, and inflammatory comments. They both have done so. Also, let it be known that both of these kids are pretty high character. Neither have arrest records and both came in with outstanding reputations. Mark was an honors student in high school (he was only a partial-qualifier as a freshman because of a guidance counselor's oversight about NCAA required courses during Mark's senior year). Tu is extremely religious and is said to even frequent daily Mass at times. It's safe to say that they were way out of line with their actions and comments last week, but they're actually good kids who made some terrible mistakes. It's really unfortunate that they're being branded as hoodlums by so many on account of one, isolated incident.


My comment you refered too was my wish that our players not get injured due to poor judgement/relapse. I just wanted our players to be safe....and you're reassurance has certainly helped, thanks for you're point of view and welcome to the Zags board....and I hope for a well played clean game later this month..may the best team win....Jim.

Honestly, you don't have anything to worry about. There isn't enough history between Gonzaga and Xavier's programs for there to be the level of hostility that precipitated this fight. I'm sure it will be a clean, well-played game. I'd also stress that Gonzaga and Xavier are highly similar programs - well-respected, competitive, Jesuit universities, with medium-sized enrollments, and a rich tradition in basketball and corresponding rabid fan bases. Xavier and Gonzaga should be, if anything, a friendly rivalry between two teams with similar reasons to be proud. Any sort of tearing down of one another's programs would be fratricide.

Also, for the record, the Cincinnati Police Department supplies officers for every game and Xavier hires security personnel as well. Given the heightened scrutiny that Xavier is sure to face the rest of the year, I'm quite certain that reinforcements will be hired as a precaution.


I thought your post was pretty well thought out & for the most part reasonably stated. As of this moment there are 9,016 members on this forum. You chose to pretty much quote one as representative.

Whiff.

Actually, if you read my post, you'll notice that I confined my assessment to this thread and to those comments which I found to be off-base.

Whiff.


Bucknut - you're long winded, and wrong. What X did was reprehensible and there is no excuse - so quit apologizing for them.

We play anyone anywhere - Cincy were thugs when we played them last as well....

I don't see where I've tried to make excuses for Xavier's players' behavior anywhere, and I'm certainly not apologizing for them. I'm not sure why you'd suggest otherwise.


BuckNut, welcome to the board, and thanks for expressing your opinion. While I agree that some on this board are taking things a bit too far with their criticisms (suggesting we forfeit, for example), I think your conclusion--that we are "looking for an out against a good team"--could not be more wrong.

I don't think everyone is actually looking for an out; rather, I think that some of the suggestions being made give that impression. Specifically, posts openly clamoring for a forfeit and/or complaining that all Xavier suspensions will be finished by the time the game rolls around could be taken as frustration that Gonzaga's chances for a win have been compromised by the Xavier administration's decisions.


Why would we want to beat X at less than full strength? If it turns out that Kansas points to beating tOSU as a signature win, I'm sure you would be the first to emphasize that Sullinger didn't play. A "tainted" win, in other words, that shouldn't be taken too seriously. Beating X without Tu and/or other important players would put GU in a no-win situation. If we pulled an upset, it would be because the players weren't in the game, and if we lost, it would be especially humiliating. In neither case would it be a "signature" win for seeding purposes.

Are we likely to beat Xavier at home this New Year's Eve? Probably not. But that's why they play the games.

I think about it like this: Would I rather that (a) OSU beat a Michigan team at less than full strength; or (b) OSU lose to a Michigan team at full strength? My answer would almost always be (b). I'd rather have an unimpressive win than an impressive loss. On some level, I can understand the frustration at facing a stronger team. That said, your Sullinger analogy is perfect. Kansas' win gets an asterisk. Without Sully, we're not the same team ... not even close.

As for the game itself, I think you might be surprised how competitive it'll be. Xavier's inside game is where they struggle. I suspect that Sacre and Harris will mostly have their way inside. Frease is not nearly as athletic as either of them, and he'll likely get worked on the boards. If Tu and Mark have an off night, the Zags could have a surprisingly comfortable victory. I actually expect a dogfight ... euphemistically speaking, of course.


I appreciate your spirited defense of X, but the sad thing about all this is that such a defense became necessary.

No disagreement, here. The fact that this took place at all is sad.


Buck,

Thanks for showing me how my opinion was wrong and how I'm only saying what I do because I'm a Homer and how I really don't know what I'm talking about. I'm enlightened now and will keep all your points in mind when I post in the future. I will be such a better person from all that you have said to me. I hope you go to bed tonight knowing that you have made my world a better place.

Wait, Spike; you said nothing would ever change your opinion. Have I achieved the impossible?

ZagNative
12-17-2011, 10:18 PM
I hope we can put this issue (and thread) to bed for a while. Any chance?

sittingon50
12-17-2011, 11:06 PM
I can see it's going to be brutal around here for at least 2 weeks.

Sigh.

ZagsGoZags
12-18-2011, 01:58 AM
Spike 94, with all due respect it seems your 'rebuttal' to several criticisms of comments by you, did not display any evidence, logic, or reasoning; it just seemed like the kind of game- playing I remember some junior high kids (including myself) antics that totally skirt a real issue.

Bucknut, welcome to the board, and I hope you return, and thanks for giving reasons for your opinions. On the other hand, the biggest issue for me is one you did not address. Why should the same level of violence that would cause criminal arrests at a bar somewhere, be 'punished' by a few pre-conference games missed? I think Ron Artest, after trying to choke his coach, needs more spin doctors, with fancy rationales. Maybe Xavier and Cleveland apologists could find some work there. Kicking somebody hard, when they are down? Kick a BB player out of school for marijuana, and not kick them out for assault and battery in public, for all the high school kids in the world to see?

I think bearing the badge of tough-guy, and "I don't take sh__ __ off nobody" is well worth a few lost games to some young men, just as it is in prison and in the hoods, the league, and elsewhere. For some it could be a tempting and calculated risk, as the world regards the pansy discipline, with lots of fancy words and no actions. Would I urge stronger punishments if one of our beloved zags committed the crime? I would. I would not be hypocritical about this. Any player going up in the stands to punch out a fan, or kick an injured player when down, should be arrested in criminal court.

This puny 'punishment' in my opinion, rewarded the violence, taught the wrong lesson to kids all over America, and proved it is worth it to make a personal, and team statement, about 'nobody messes with me.' Did it hurt that players NBA chances? not at all. Xavier or Cleveland's chance to show their skill in the Big Dance, and go all the way if they are good enough? not at all. What really matters is that the baby powder punishment does not matter and will deter no player who wants to establish a tough guy reputation.

Here is my question to you Bucknut: why should crimes that bring on arrests in dark alleys, not be treated the same way in a college basketball game, where literally tens of thousands of watching young men are aspiring to be great basketball players? Can't you see high school coaches all over the nation trying to tell their players, you might get away with this at this level, but you won't in college or the NBA. Coach proved wrong.

jazzdelmar
12-18-2011, 02:49 AM
The arrogance of anyone from The Ohio State U inviting himself here to lecture us on propriety when it comes to any aspect of intercollegiate sports is laughable and offensive. Hello, life. Goodbye, Columbus.


Ps. Now write a couple thousand more passive aggressive words on why Jim Obrien, Jim Tressel and Maurice Clarett were unfairly treated?

Zagpower
12-18-2011, 04:58 AM
The arrogance of anyone from The Ohio State U inviting himself here to lecture us on propriety when it comes to any aspect of intercollegiate sports is laughable and offensive. Hello, life. Goodbye, Columbus.

+1

DCZag
12-18-2011, 05:10 AM
Bucknut - Dude, get a life and a little perspective. Typing for hours doesn't change the fact that the behavior exhibited was not handled correctly - everyone in the entire country is against you - sorry, handle it.

Spike94
12-18-2011, 05:39 AM
Zags,

Ok, you want logic fine.

He said what could the mean streets of Spokane tell me about the word "Gangsta?" Well I don't know. I actually teach in an inner-city high school in a major California city, and have for the past 12 years. I have a good idea about what "gangsta" means, and know what context to take comments like those made by XU in the press conference.

He said Tu didn't strike first. There is a video linked on this thread that shows otherwise.

He said I only say what I do because I'm a Homer. I tried to explain my comments were based on what GU had done in the past with discipline issues. To which he said they have done the same thing. Congrats good for you. And it is truly shocking that you would find a Homer on a GU message board.

My whole point was that XU handled this poorly. XU was wrong. I still believe that.

But, in all honestly, i didn't feel like any of these arguments would get through to a person that spends hours typing on an opponents message board so I tried something different.

I agree with the above post. This thread is going nowhere.